In Depth Suggestions on How to Bring Guardian Hammer Back to Life

[Virtuality.8351]

The following suggestion is based on the discussion a few of us had in the thread started by @phor.7952.

To summarize, in the thread, I suggested that the identity of this weapon for Guardian has been 'damage reduction/movement inhibition/area denial'. The recommendation below is proposed around and to enhance the capability of these three major functions. It also aims to address the unwieldiness or impracticality of some of the skills, particularly Symbol of Protection and Zealot's Embrace.

Updated version of my proposal, September 2020.

Weapon Skills 1 to 5

1. Symbol of Protection (end of the auto chain)Reduce the cast time from 1.25 s to 0.75 s to reduce the unwieldiness.
2. Mighty Blow & Glacial Blow (if the trait Glacial Heart is active)Mighty BLow: Increase the movement range from 300 to 360.Glacial Blow (traited with Glacial Heart): Increase the movement range from 300 to 360. Reduce the recharge time from 6 s to 5 s and increase the skill coefficient from 2.1 to 2.55 to stay on par with Mighty Blow in terms of damage potential over time, or alternatively, increase the skill coefficient from 2.1 to 3 with the recharge time remaining unchanged.
3. Zealot's EmbraceInstead of sending a piercing projectile, the skill now creates a 'wave' (as in the skill description) point blank sector of 90 degree and 600 range (similar to Shackling Wave). The rest remains unchanged.The excess range of the projectile we have at this moment is a bit pointless in my opinion, for that the projectile is easy to dodge for opponents at range, and even if it successfully hits and traps the target, it is still difficult for Guardian to exploit the 2 s immobilization anyway due to lack of mobility.On the other hand, the ability to immobilize multiple opponents in front of you within medium to close range in order to then deliver a Might/Glacial Blow or to Banish, as recommended here, just seems to provide much better synergy.
4. BanishIncrease the power coefficient from 1.0 to 1.6 in PvE. Increase the number of targets to 3.
5. Ring of WardingIn addition to its current effect, the field now also pulses blindness for 1 s with an interval of 1 s. Increase the radius from 180 to 240. Reduce the recharge time from 30 s to 25 s.

Or alternatively,

1. Symbol of Protection is replaced with another skill that uses the same animation but with shorter cast time. The new skill is a single time point-blank area of effect that hits 5 targets around the player character for 240 radius.
2. Mighty Blow & Glacial Blow now creates Symbol of Protection upon impact.
3. As above.
4. As above.
5. As above.

With this proposal, the skill chain #3, #5 and then #2 would be of great synergy.

Original Proposal:

1. Symbol of Protection (end of the auto chain): Reduce the cast time from 1.25 s to 0.75 s to reduce the unwieldiness. Increase the protection duration per pulse from 1 s to 1.5 s.
2. Mighty Blow: Increase the movement range from 300 to 360; Glacial Blow (traited with Glacial Heart): Increase the movement range from 300 to 360. Reduce the recharge time from 6 s to 5 s and increase the skill coefficient from 2.1 to 2.55 to stay on par with Mighty Blow in terms of damage potential over time, or alternatively, increase the skill coefficient from 2.1 to 3 with the recharge time remaining unchanged.
3. Zealot's Embrace: Instead of sending a piercing projectile, the skill now creates a 'wave' (as in the skill description) point blank sector of 90 degree and 600 range (similar to Shackling Wave). The rest remains unchanged. (The excess range of the projectile we have at this moment is a bit pointless in my opinion, for that from long range the projectile is easy to dodge, and even if it successfully hits and traps the target, it is still difficult for Guardian to exploit the 2 s window anyway due to lack of mobility. On the other hand, the ability to immobilize multiple opponents in front of you within medium to close range in order to then deliver a Might/Glacial Blow or to Banish, as recommended here, just seems to provide much better synergy.)
4. Banish: Unchanged.
5. Ring of Warding: In addition to its previous effect, the field now also pulses blindness for 1 s with an interval of 1 s. Increase the radius from 180 to 240. Reduce the recharge time from 30 s to 25 s.

Also, to provide better boon support, I'd like to also recommend to make Writ of Persistence increase the number of allies affected by Symbols to 10 in addition to its current effect. The extra 2 s for the field could go, should any counterbalance be made. Maybe downgrade the trait to Master or even Adept tier as well, as it just does not seem to compete with the other two in Grandmaster.

Thoughts are welcomed! I'd very much like to know how people with experience in PvE (organized and open world) as well as PvP might think about these suggestions.

[Virtuality.8351]

This is a bit of my personal preference, but I'd like to point out that, the war hammer, or sometimes the 'maul' (basically a war hammer with a long handle), was designed in the medieval period to be an anti-armor weapon.

With leverage, mass and pointed or flat but small head, the weapon concentrates the force and delivers concussion damage through the armor right to the underlying body of the opponent, which is something I have been longing to see but never found any function that could've possibly translate into the game world. I have thought about making recommendation to introduce Vulnerability application to the weapon, but then the function of the weapon in real life is not exactly to reduce the effectiveness of the armor on the opponent, but rather to sort of 'bypass' it. Though it does not make sense to me either to see skill coefficient scaling with Toughness on the target...

So there you go ¯_(ツ)_/¯ maybe possible new mechanics to be introduced in the future?

[phokus.8934]

@Virtuality.8351 said:This is a bit of my personal preference, but I'd like to point out that, the war hammer, or sometimes the 'maul' (basically a war hammer with a long handle), was designed in the medieval period to be an anti-armor weapon.

With leverage, mass and pointed or flat but small head, the weapon concentrates the force and delivers concussion damage through the armor right to the underlying body of the opponent, which is something I have been longing to see but never found any function that could've possibly translate into the game world. I have thought about making recommendation to introduce Vulnerability application to the weapon, but then the function of the weapon in real life is not exactly to reduce the effectiveness of the armor on the opponent, but rather to sort of 'bypass' it. Though it does not make sense to me either to see skill coefficient scaling with Toughness on the target...

So there you go ¯_(ツ)_/¯ maybe possible new mechanics to be introduced in the future?But this is a fantasy game in a make believe world. Real world application doesn’t need to apply. In short, hammer needs a lot of work and I like the OPs suggestions.

[Antycypator.9874]

Hammer could be a nice and fun weapon, but it's too slow. I would remove protection symbol from hammer (or move it to 5th skill) and just make it faster on aa chain.

[otto.5684]

I think these changes are pretty good.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

I like these.for mighty blow, I would increase range to 450 and reduce animation time.it would be cool if banish acted like berserkers wild blow, first guy gets launched and everyone he hits gets knocked back.

[draxynnic.3719]

@Antycypator.9874 said:Hammer could be a nice and fun weapon, but it's too slow. I would remove protection symbol from hammer (or move it to 5th skill) and just make it faster on aa chain.

That'd kill what makes hammer unique, and would need additional modifications to boot. Having the symbol on autoattack makes it useful in a lot of situations.>

@"Virtuality.8351" said:

5. Ring of Warding: In addition to its previous effect, the field now also pulses blindness for 1 s with an interval of 1 s. Increase the radius from 180 to 240. Reduce the recharge time from 30 s to 25 s.

Adding blind to an ability that prevents the enemy from leaving seems a little too strong to me. Possibly add projectile blocking instead, making it essentially a reverse Shelter or a guardian equivalent of Seal Area?

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Antycypator.9874 said:Hammer could be a nice and fun weapon, but it's too slow. I would remove protection symbol from hammer (or move it to 5th skill) and just make it faster on aa chain.

That'd kill what makes hammer unique, and would need additional modifications to boot. Having the symbol on autoattack makes it useful in a lot of situations.>

@"Virtuality.8351" said:

5. Ring of Warding: In addition to its previous effect, the field now also pulses blindness for 1 s with an interval of 1 s. Increase the radius from 180 to 240. Reduce the recharge time from 30 s to 25 s.

Adding blind to an ability that prevents the enemy from leaving seems a little too strong to me. Possibly add projectile blocking instead, making it essentially a reverse Shelter or a guardian equivalent of Seal Area?

I think you missed where no one brings Guardian Hammer anywhere serious... It seriously needs an overhaul. Yes it is CC, but it also needs to fit into a DPS rotation before anyone will take it these days.

[Genesis.8572]

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Antycypator.9874 said:Hammer could be a nice and fun weapon, but it's too slow. I would remove protection symbol from hammer (or move it to 5th skill) and just make it faster on aa chain.

That'd kill what makes hammer unique, and would need additional modifications to boot. Having the symbol on autoattack makes it useful in a lot of situations.>The problem with having the symbol on AA is that it encourages a lot of AA camping instead of utilizing more dynamic skill synergies, which makes skills 2-5 of the hammer fairly underutilized and an overall boring playstyle.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Genesis.8572 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Antycypator.9874 said:Hammer could be a nice and fun weapon, but it's too slow. I would remove protection symbol from hammer (or move it to 5th skill) and just make it faster on aa chain.

That'd kill what makes hammer unique, and would need additional modifications to boot. Having the symbol on autoattack makes it useful in a lot of situations.>The problem with having the symbol on AA is that it encourages a lot of AA camping instead of utilizing more dynamic skill synergies, which makes skills 2-5 of the hammer fairly underutilized and an overall boring playstyle.

This.

Put the symbol on Hammer 2, make it an 8s CD and last 4s, gives 2s of Protection per pulse. Make Hammer AA 3 immobilize foes struck for 1s, make it AoE. Make Hammer 3 Mighty Blow, CD increase to 8s, Reduce Recharge by 50% if it hits an immobilized foe.

Make Banish teleport to targeted foe and knockdown for 3s. Reduce cast time to 1/2s. Increase base damage by 50%.Make Ring of Warping a ground targeted skill with 1200 range. Instead of keeping foes from crossing the line, make it pulse slow and Chill. Make it pulse damage as well (on the order of what a symbol would do).

[Virtuality.8351]

@draxynnic.3719 said:@"Virtuality.8351" said:

5. Ring of Warding: In addition to its previous effect, the field now also pulses blindness for 1 s with an interval of 1 s. Increase the radius from 180 to 240. Reduce the recharge time from 30 s to 25 s.

Adding blind to an ability that prevents the enemy from leaving seems a little too strong to me.

On second thought, I agree with your assessment in PvP, though not in PvE. Also, reflection could work and is consistent with the 'damage reduction' function/identity of the weapon, though I'd argue that Blinding just fits better thematically in regard to 'Lightward'. Therefore, instead of reflection, I'd suggest splitting between PvE and PvP and tone down the effect to, say, Blinding for 2 s every other second.

@Genesis.8572 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Antycypator.9874 said:Hammer could be a nice and fun weapon, but it's too slow. I would remove protection symbol from hammer (or move it to 5th skill) and just make it faster on aa chain.

That'd kill what makes hammer unique, and would need additional modifications to boot. Having the symbol on autoattack makes it useful in a lot of situations.>The problem with having the symbol on AA is that it encourages a lot of AA camping instead of utilizing more dynamic skill synergies, which makes skills 2-5 of the hammer fairly underutilized and an overall boring playstyle.

Could you specify under what circumstances people'd rather camp AA? As far as I know, in PvP, people swap to hammer for burst damage (Mighty/Glacial Blow) and CC chain. In PvE, one would lose a significant portion of damage output by skipping Mighty/Glacial Blow (#2). While sill #3 and #4 are utilized to break defiance bar, #5 seems to do nothing against stationary target, which is another reason why I suggest adding Blinding to the skill.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Virtuality.8351 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:@Virtuality.8351 said:

5. Ring of Warding: In addition to its previous effect, the field now also pulses blindness for 1 s with an interval of 1 s. Increase the radius from 180 to 240. Reduce the recharge time from 30 s to 25 s.

Adding blind to an ability that prevents the enemy from leaving seems a little too strong to me.

On second thought, I agree with your assessment in PvP, though not in PvE. Also, reflection could work and is consistent with the 'damage reduction' function/identity of the weapon, though I'd argue that Blinding just fits better thematically in regard to 'Lightward'. Therefore, instead of reflection, I'd suggest splitting between PvE and PvP and tone down the effect to, say, Blinding for 2 s every other second.

@Genesis.8572 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Antycypator.9874 said:Hammer could be a nice and fun weapon, but it's too slow. I would remove protection symbol from hammer (or move it to 5th skill) and just make it faster on aa chain.

That'd kill what makes hammer unique, and would need additional modifications to boot. Having the symbol on autoattack makes it useful in a lot of situations.>The problem with having the symbol on AA is that it encourages a lot of AA camping instead of utilizing more dynamic skill synergies, which makes skills 2-5 of the hammer fairly underutilized and an overall boring playstyle.

Could you specify under what circumstances people'd rather camp AA? As far as I know, in PvP, people swap to hammer for burst damage (Mighty/Glacial Blow) and CC chain. In PvE, one would lose a significant portion of damage output by skipping Mighty/Glacial Blow (#2). While sill #3 and #4 are utilized to break defiance bar, #5 seems to do nothing against stationary target, which is another reason why I suggest adding Blinding to the skill.

I believe someone did a benchmark on Guardian hammer with the recent changes, which included #2 at least. I think it was 15k tops? Most of the damage was in the AA chain. In fact I think hammer AA chain is 10k itself with full buffs. There just isn't much an the Guardian hammer bar besides the AA chain for damage.

[starlinvf.1358]

@Genesis.8572 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Antycypator.9874 said:Hammer could be a nice and fun weapon, but it's too slow. I would remove protection symbol from hammer (or move it to 5th skill) and just make it faster on aa chain.

That'd kill what makes hammer unique, and would need additional modifications to boot. Having the symbol on autoattack makes it useful in a lot of situations.>The problem with having the symbol on AA is that it encourages a lot of AA camping instead of utilizing more dynamic skill synergies, which makes skills 2-5 of the hammer fairly underutilized and an overall boring playstyle.

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Genesis.8572 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Antycypator.9874 said:Hammer could be a nice and fun weapon, but it's too slow. I would remove protection symbol from hammer (or move it to 5th skill) and just make it faster on aa chain.

That'd kill what makes hammer unique, and would need additional modifications to boot. Having the symbol on autoattack makes it useful in a lot of situations.>The problem with having the symbol on AA is that it encourages a lot of AA camping instead of utilizing more dynamic skill synergies, which makes skills 2-5 of the hammer fairly underutilized and an overall boring playstyle.

This.

Put the symbol on Hammer 2, make it an 8s CD and last 4s, gives 2s of Protection per pulse. Make Hammer AA 3 immobilize foes struck for 1s, make it AoE. Make Hammer 3 Mighty Blow, CD increase to 8s, Reduce Recharge by 50% if it hits an immobilized foe.

Make Banish teleport to targeted foe and knockdown for 3s. Reduce cast time to 1/2s. Increase base damage by 50%.Make Ring of Warping a ground targeted skill with 1200 range. Instead of keeping foes from crossing the line, make it pulse slow and Chill. Make it pulse damage as well (on the order of what a symbol would do).

I would power balance the AA to have a single pulse symbol to benefit from traits, and make the whole use case more mobile. Hammer's main issues stem from it being a Point Brawling/Boss Tanking weapon, but nowhere does the game really allow for "tank and spank". Making the AA single pulse gets around that main problem, and then retune the other skills for a reverse lockdown fighting style. This retains aspects of its Point Defense purpose, but improves the area denial potential in WvW, and allows it to be mobile as a whole.

1: Change the cycles timing and damage loading of AA to 30/30/40, with the final hit being single pulse symbol with increased protection duration.2: Retain blast finisher, but slightly increase range3: Change it from a projectile to a 600 range Circle/Cone Cascade, 3 target. Inner Circle Immobiles, Cascade 1 cripples, Cascade 2 Blinds. This changes its purpose to a flexible setup for Banish.

4: Banish unchanged5: I"m not sure what, if anything, needs to be done with Ring of Warding.

For a while I was debating if 3 should also have a Reflect feature like Air-Blast from Flamethrower. Completely underutilized feature.

[Asum.4960]

It always puzzled my why Symbol of Protection isn't simply on Mighty Blow, triggering on landing, possibly with a slightly increased CD.Banish launches Foes a distance of 750, but the kit provides no tool to catch up with that as follow up as Mighty Blow only has a range of 300.I think equalizing those ranges would do a lot to improve the feel of the weapon, maybe setting both at ~400, or something like 350 for Mighty Blow and 500 for Banish, while still leaving GS superior for mobility with a 600 Leap. A full second cast time for Banish maybe is a bit overboard as well and it could use a reduction to 3/4 s.Zealots Embrace being a shorter ranged conical AoE Similar to Revs Sword 5 Shackling Wave, as suggested, could work well.Ring of Warding imo also needs a slight decrease in cast time/speed up aftercast. The increased radius definitely is a good idea as well, as well as possibly projectile negation.Hammer Auto Attack needs further speed up, and a 5 Target conical ground smash, similar to Mighty Blow without leap or blast finisher, could replace the Symbol on the third hit, having been moved to Mighty Blow.

[Virtuality.8351]

@starlinvf.1358 said:I would power balance the AA to have a single pulse symbol to benefit from traits, and make the whole use case more mobile.

Let's not forget we still have Writ of Persistence, which increase the duration of your Symbol by 2 s. Supposedly, with the reduction the AoE to a single pulse, the effect of the pulse should also be buffed threefold for balance sake. In such case, Writ of Persistence would increase the total Symbol damage per cast measured in skill coefficient from 2.5 over 4 s as how it is at the moment, to 4.5 over 2 s after your suggested change, which to me seems a bit overpowered for the last skill in the AA chain.

Now, one might suggest scaling down the base power coefficient of the Symbol to solve the problem. Yet, without the trait, by doing so you would hurt the already lacking DPS.

@starlinvf.1358 said:1: Change the cycles timing and damage loading of AA to 30/30/40, with the final hit being single pulse symbol with increased protection duration.I'd suggest retain the hammer swing component. Otherwise it'd become either a DPS drop (if the 1.0 damage of the swing component is not made up for), or a terrible mess to balance for the developers (if the said damage is made up for, with the reason stated as above).

3: Change it from a projectile to a 600 range Circle/Cone Cascade, 3 target. Inner Circle Immobiles, Cascade 1 cripples, Cascade 2 Blinds. This changes its purpose to a flexible setup for Banish.

I actually like this idea! I think it would be both visually and mechanically interesting.

[mrauls.6519]

Banish should be a cone shaped shockwave that grants protection to allies and dazes foes...

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@Asum.4960 said:It always puzzled my why Symbol of Protection isn't simply on Mighty Blow, triggering on landing, possibly with a slightly increased CD.

that makes a lot of sense.

[Virtuality.8351]

Updated version, September 2020.Also posted in the comment section of this thread:https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/98026/guardian-hammer-is-useless/