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Scrappers in WvW


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@"subversiontwo.7501"Thanks for taking time to reply.It's about "Scrapper in WvW" and concerning the current state, so I don't think it's a detour. ^^

The build does not use bomb-kit and would have a high dps loss trying to use bombs. That's mainly because of the radius of blast/shredder gyro. A big part of its dps comes from gyro/hammer use, while a big part of its survivability comes from the 15% barrier trait. So, any core build will die early in fight and have trouble seeing the top-dps position. In my opinion, this build actually gained from the last patch, since object-in-motion and 15% barrier trait benefits it.

Mortar use is always complicated and I also think that the video-maker didn't do it well in all occasions. But it has the possibility to fly over reflects and offers additional pressure on range + soft-CC (blinds/chill) in Close-combar. Occasionally I use it still in guild setups on Dzago and get into the top-dps part. Then I often use sneak-gyro for the smoke-fields, though.

In my opinion, it has its place comparing it to other classes/builds. It has many CC skills, some group-might and a lot of group-superspeed on short-CD. it can't replace a rev/guard/necro/minstr-scrapper, but if enough of those are present it's a great choice to bring additional dps to the zerk.Also, in times of high queues, it's great to be able to switch between valid zerg-supporter and -dps without leaving the map.

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After I got accused and trashtalked once more to use a noob-trash-condi-build.... against which the Opponent of course did not stand a Chance.... it is another proof that Condi Scrapper still is a Thing in roaming ^^

I know the traits are not optimal in their current state, but I am by far not the best player out there and can still hold my own against 95% of the enemies. So it Looks probably worse than it actually is.

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@XenesisII.1540 said:Thanks for coming 3 weeks after the patch to let us know.At least scrappers now have a place in the zerg meta cause who doesn't like having mobile stealth and a boon machine. Plus lots of holos still out and roaming in groups. Also I said everything, including damage, needs a nerf. I'm just about ready to quit again for a while, too much kitten to put up with.

Actually, I have posted quite a bit on it. (And several other times in this thread) I have been spending time trying to envision the new scrapper as something outside the condi conversion meta that it is and has been even before the last patch. (Which I also mentioned in the post if you read the first paragraph) It is still good in its role (PoP) and as a 5 man stealth bomb and that's pretty much it. Some of us enjoyed playing other scrapper builds than the medi meta but ANet did a great job in killing them all except some condi. (I do not play condi Scrapper)

I agree with you wholeheartedly on the nerfing but I doubt ANet has the guts to do it. I keep trying to quit but somehow keep holding on to hope that a miracle will happen. (probably a sign of the state of my sanity with this game)

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@Shining One.1635 said:

@Kayowin.9217 said:Keyword, was.....He still plays it, so it can't be that easy to kill. I see him on it more than his Druid.

Not to hard or easy, I guess it could be said your way or mine. Scrappers are not the bunkers that they used to be with little benefit (far below parity) to offset the nerfs. There are far worse things in this game that continue to go unchecked or receive buffs where nerfs are needed.

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@Dediggefedde.4961 said:stealth also buffed. If anything, there might be an increase in scrapper population despide 3k HP and rapid regen loss.

I have seen the opposite (far less scrappers) except in medi being used in comp groups as it still is meta and only its survivablilty took a hit. (Not its ability to clear/convert condis as you and everyone else has said)

Stealth has been nerfed with SG (before the last BP) but it is still good and blastable. If you mean buffed because no more detection field, I guess you might have a point but that would be all stealth.

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@subversiontwo.7501 said:

@"Dawdler.8521" said:I call bunk on that without video proof, there is no way the zerg damage of a scrapper should be able to keep up with scourges/revs.

I didn't know the phrase "I call bunk on that" before. ^^Anyway, I don't do videos recently, but here is one with a similar build from someone else before the last patch. Still feels the same playing, though.I think the fight at 7:00 is a good example.
This is an interesting detour in the thread, saw it at work yesterday but couldn't respond until today so I was kind of beaten to it.

Anyway, Engineers have access 5-man cleave auto attacks (bombs, mortars) which has always given them the potential to score high DPS, at the same time, there has never been much spike in it and it has always had application issues. So it has sometimes made sense in high-pressure comps but never really been a staple. As for the application issues Dedi's video showcases them as well as it showcases the potential DPS. You can see the Scrapper doing well against the green team but poorly against the blue team. So what is the difference? The blue team has understood that reflects exist while the green team has virtually zero reflects. The first few fights also has some ideal positioning that isn't normative. The fights against the blue are more normative and you will quickly see Weavers, Revs and Scourges climb the meter - and that is then only a DPS meter - so they also more importantly have better spikes, controls and off-effects even if we look past the application issues.

So what's my point? If people want to lob mortars or pop bombs, by all means do it. It's a fun niche, just don't claim that it is a functional normative role or that it is something that meshes with the idea and role of what the class or specs are supposed to be. That's an overreach. It also ties back to the topic of this thread. While the nerfs did hit the meta minstrel builds, what it really hurt was these kinds of creative and useful off-builds because even the mortar approach lost more from the patch than the meta build did. It was far more useful when all those gyros you have rolling gave more team support and you could play an outlier role with the additional F5's. The meta build lost the least from the nerfs because that build has natural access to vitality, spend less time using F5's and uses more kits with the spray can et. al.

What lost the most were fun team builds that dabbled into some hybrid stats (ie., some heal and damage) without vitality and looked at finding ways to make things like the heal gyro work, you know, the scrapper's heal on a scrapper :# . They were the big losers here. The meta build certainly didn't lose enough to make a zerk-bomber more useful, or any other build that even uses any of the new higher tier traits, at all. It's the builds that don't care about them that thrives and I can't think of a better argument for how bad the changes were. The tree is uninteresting past adept and you basically just pick the tree now for half of the gyros and access to superspeed. Everything it does is in core.

Well said!

Also I would like to add, mortar kit damage was buffed awhile ago but it is normally shunned as you usually do more damage to your team that you do to the enemy or play tennis with the slow moving and easily avoidable mortar rounds. (as SubversionTwo alluded to) The MK is mostly useful for destroying siege and combo fields. The arc it travels is slow and useless most of the time when used it tactical situations. If it worked more like a true mortar and came down on enemies from above, that would be fantastic!

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@Dediggefedde.4961 said:@"subversiontwo.7501"

Mortar use is always complicated and I also think that the video-maker didn't do it well in all occasions. But it has the possibility to fly over reflects and offers additional pressure on range + soft-CC (blinds/chill) in Close-combar. Occasionally I use it still in guild setups on Dzago and get into the top-dps part.

"possibility to fly over reflects" is a rare thing unless you have a sizable elevation advantage and even then if the target is close to the reflect it still is bounced back. MK rounds are agonizingly slow but at least you can move away from the reflected round easily enough.

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@Kayowin.9217Actually, it can go over most reflects without you beeing elevated, but the arch must be fitting. It won't go over a warrior bubble, but firebrand-F3-3 is easy. With elevation, you can even shoot over walls and gates.

You also need to look a bit where you aim at, work with splash-damage, put fields where the zerg runs to etc.At least our enemies get hit by it most of the time. splash damage can also go through some walls if fights happen at interesting locations.

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@Dediggefedde.4961 said:@Kayowin.9217Actually, it can go over most reflects without you beeing elevated, but the arch must be fitting. It won't go over a warrior bubble, but firebrand-F3-3 is easy. With elevation, you can even shoot over walls and gates.

You also need to look a bit where you aim at, work with splash-damage, put fields where the zerg runs to etc.At least our enemies get hit by it most of the time. splash damage can also go through some walls if fights happen at interesting locations.

I use MK at times when needed and have over 1500 hours on scrapper on one toon alone but I have a very different experience with the MK. (I have three engis in total) I have found that most walls reflect it easily as well unless the wall is exactly mid point between you and your target while accommodating for the MK's sub par range. Hence why I say it is a rarity when you can use it to lob over reflects. I know they buffed the damage for MK but that is the thing that really needed a true overhaul on scrapper. They might as well delete it and buff/replace it with grenade kit. If you have a video of such consistently putting it over a guardians wall utility or other non bubble personal reflects, post it as I do not have one.

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@Kayowin.9217 said:If you have a video of such consistently putting it over a guardians wall utility or other non bubble personal reflects, post it as I do not have one.

Such a video would be trivial and not proving much.The mortar-arch reaches roughly double the height of a guard-wall and travels 1500 range. If the arch is respecting gravity the arch could be described by h=-3.6e-6(x-750)+2 in units of guardian-wall-heights when shot at even ground. Neglecting the wall depth you can check the intersection with h=1 (wall height) and get a range of going as close to 223 and as far as 1280 before the projectile is reflected.So, any video where the guardian wall is between 250 and 1200 range the arch should fit.

The main problem is in zerg fights, where walls and bubbles will suddenly open at the target. If the zergs stack at 1200 range to avoid rev-dmg, the mortar is often easy at reaching and rarely reflected. In pirateshipping situations more reflects are up, and in close-combat I usually only use tactical fields at close-range and camp hammer.So, in my opinion, a more interesting video would be of the targeting in big zerg fights and different locations.The videos I have a usually from my guild, so they are private and all use the sneak-gyro.

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