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Please gut Condi Daredevil and Acro Staff Daredevil


Tsuchinoko.7546

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@Dave.6819 said:

@Dave.6819 said:So daredevil is the weakest class right now after so many nerfs.. and we still want to nerf it? Sure sure.. Make steal range 100. Delete condi clear on dodge cuz it's so OP (apparently condi players don't know how to cancel their skills while DrD is dodging i guess.) And.. make staff #3 cost 300 initiative. Alrighty. Oh and nerf staff dmg by 99%. Should be okey for like 1 season atleast.

Weakest at what? Sure d/p daredevil took a hit with the swipe range, cant think of anything else that's ruined that build regards to theif traits it self.

Staff daredevil took no hits at all in a while and probably gave it a small buff with the weakness change, as well as condi clear on dodge.

Condi da traits with poison stacking is annoying though, like 1 choking gas did something like instant 5 stacks

Just roll back post-HoT or even HoT days and check the list how many nerfs we had.

I can say that about any build though. Remember mirage or scourge of FB, etc...

Overall dare devil is okay.

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I will speak only about condi daredevil because it's what I've fought the most, so I can't really speak about the other builds.The condi daredevil has an obnoxious gameplay to say the least, the problem in my opinion is the fact that it can stack poison so much and so frequently, that to resist an assult you really have to pack too much condi clear and too frequent. Of course you don't want to gut a spec as soon as annoying and overperforming build come out, so probably we should look at how to tone it down without having to gut it and keeping it an option to play.

The most contributors to this are Deadly Arts traits Deadly Ambition and Potent Poison, the interaction between the daredevil dodge Impaling Lotus with the short bow 4 Chocking Gas and the interaction between Detonate Cluster (bomb) multiple hits and Deadly Ambition.Ideally one should go for an approach prone to the reduce the spam of the skills while making them remain effective when properly casted.

So I would propose as a starting point to:

  • increase Deadly Ambition cooldown
  • removing the whirl finisher from Impaling Lotus
  • make so that deadly ambition doesn't get proc for each of the multiple hits of Detonate Cluster bomb but it should gets triggered only by 1 single hit.

This three things if well calibrated can reduce the condi spam a lot, for what concerns the too much evading I do not know how to approach it yet.

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I’d point out that the build being complained about has very few gap closers and minimal AoE pressure range.

Kiting will get you a long way. Especially if the opponent has to use their dodges defensively.

Don’t stand on node. Kite them and fight from range. Also, use projectile denial skills to block a lot of extra combo effects from the dodges at close range.

And bring cleanse. You probably need that to fight a condi build.

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I am willing to agree that Staff DrD might be a thing now due to increase mentions on forums, despite not seeing a single one on my own though, although its true I troll around on it myself, however Condi Staff? Just hold up, this I really really doubt, I play pvp almost daily including frequent ATs and this not only I never met but also never even heard anyone mention it until this thread. Someone explain please.

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@saerni.2584 said:Kiting will get you a long way. Especially if the opponent has to use their dodges defensively.

Don’t stand on node. Kite them and fight from range. Also, use projectile denial skills to block a lot of extra combo effects from the dodges at close range.

Isn't this exactly the problem with that build though? It's pretty difficult to kill a skilled condi DD on point with that build, while they have plenty of tools to bring you down unless you invest heavily in aoe/anti-projectile/constant cleanse (which, by design, would reduce your ability to hit them as hard as you could otherwise). Of course, they still retain the ability to back off whenever they want to with all the thief-y stuff they have. Essentially it keeps much of the mobility that thieves always had, but can now actually stand against 2 enemies on point. Not a fan.

But as always, nothing teaches you how to take down a nasty build than trying to run it yourself. There's just no better way to learn where the vulnerabilities are. I'm the worst pvp thief I know, so I won't be burdening my teams with that, but I look forward to hearing about more countermeasures.

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@"LolLookAtMyAP.8394" said:The biggest downside to Staff/Staff daredevil is its low defense, one shot from a Ranger LB spammer or anyone with strong ranged attack can shut the build down.

Low defense? A lot of them run knight/paladin amulet with dolyak runes.

Plus, they have extremely high active defenses with all of the evades and low cd stun break.

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@voltaicbore.8012 said:

@saerni.2584 said:Kiting will get you a long way. Especially if the opponent has to use their dodges defensively.

Don’t stand on node. Kite them and fight from range. Also, use projectile denial skills to block a lot of extra combo effects from the dodges at close range.

Isn't this exactly the problem with that build though? It's pretty difficult to kill a skilled condi DD on point with that build, while they have plenty of tools to bring you down unless you invest heavily in aoe/anti-projectile/constant cleanse (which, by design, would reduce your ability to hit them as hard as you could otherwise). Of course, they still retain the ability to back off whenever they want to with all the thief-y stuff they have. Essentially it keeps much of the mobility that thieves always had, but can now actually stand against 2 enemies on point. Not a fan.

But as always, nothing teaches you how to take down a nasty build than trying to run it yourself. There's just no better way to learn where the vulnerabilities are. I'm the worst pvp thief I know, so I won't be burdening my teams with that, but I look forward to hearing about more countermeasures.

I can’t speak to jump exploits to avoid the vulnerability frames.

What I can suggest is kiting off point. A number of builds can cover a point in Deadly AoE damage. But, once those abilities expire they do far less damage. You might lose the point for a few seconds but dying will hurt your team more.

From a condi perspective:

1) Load them up in a burst then stow weapons. This gives no attacks to evade and they will be unable to cleanse unless they have a separate source of cleanse.

2) If they have secondary cleanse they will probably be vulnerable if you can save even one extra condi attack until after that cleanse. Again, stow weapons. They will flail hoping you keep attacking and bleed out on the floor.

General advice:

1) Kite away and let them use resources chasing you. Most of their damage abilities are field combos and short range projectiles. Keep moving.

2) Cleanse is not an “extra” it is a requirement. Projectile denial is also baked into certain builds. A FB on your team has plenty of it and AoE cleanse. Group play may be required to fight one of these.

3) Hard CC can hit this during vulnerability frames. Save your burst and force the thief to retreat. Or chain CC because thief lacks stability and stunbreaks. That will kill plenty of them.

Will this beat a top thief? Maybe not but then you can’t balance around a gold player fighting a top player and complaining their build is too OP.

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@Safandula.8723 said:wait u seriously guys writing about condi staff build? i cant belive it works tbh

I’m entertaining it mainly because you might be able to do a hybrid build and I’m not willing to say it can’t work.

Might as well point out the ways condi thief can be fought and why it isn’t usually impossible for experienced players to win against. Might educate a few people in the process.

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@shadowpass.4236 said:

@"LolLookAtMyAP.8394" said:The biggest downside to Staff/Staff daredevil is its low defense, one shot from a Ranger LB spammer or anyone with strong ranged attack can shut the build down.

Low defense? A lot of them run knight/paladin amulet with dolyak runes.

Plus, they have extremely high
active
defenses with all of the evades and low cd stun break.

A Knight/Paladin Daredevil with Dolyak runes isn't going to kill anything, and also isnt going to be able to contest a point for very long.It's either full Condi with carrion/rabid or Mara/Demo if you want to have any kind of presence for thieves.

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@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:Low defense? A lot of them run knight/paladin amulet with dolyak runes.

Plus, they have extremely high
active
defenses with all of the evades and low cd stun break.

A Knight/Paladin Daredevil with Dolyak runes isn't going to kill anything, and also isnt going to be able to contest a point for very long.It's either full Condi with carrion/rabid or Mara/Demo if you want to have any kind of presence for thieves.

Yeah it can still kill lol

There was a menders staff thief hitting for 6k on his vaults. Knights and paladins can hit 2-3k bounds, 2-3k staff 3s, and 6k vaults as well.

Also, you should watch Anya's stream or some other staff thieves play. I've seen some of them contest 1v4 at mid for an extended period of time.

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@shadowpass.4236 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:Low defense? A lot of them run knight/paladin amulet with dolyak runes.

Plus, they have extremely high
active
defenses with all of the evades and low cd stun break.

A Knight/Paladin Daredevil with Dolyak runes isn't going to kill anything, and also isnt going to be able to contest a point for very long.It's either full Condi with carrion/rabid or Mara/Demo if you want to have any kind of presence for thieves.

Yeah it can still kill lol

There was a menders staff thief hitting for 6k on his vaults. Knights and paladins can hit 2-3k bounds, 2-3k staff 3s, and 6k vaults as well.

Also, you should watch Anya's stream or some other staff thieves play. I've seen some of them contest 1v4 at mid for an extended period of time.

Menders I believe, but the others? I need to see builds. I'll take a look. 1v4 on point contest as a thief sounds unbelievable, unless you sacrifice all of your damage output for some kind of gimmick and the entire team wastes time trying to kill you.

If condi thief needs tweaks it needs tweaks. There was a poison stacking issue not far out of the gate to begin with.

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@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:Low defense? A lot of them run knight/paladin amulet with dolyak runes.

Plus, they have extremely high
active
defenses with all of the evades and low cd stun break.

A Knight/Paladin Daredevil with Dolyak runes isn't going to kill anything, and also isnt going to be able to contest a point for very long.It's either full Condi with carrion/rabid or Mara/Demo if you want to have any kind of presence for thieves.

Yeah it can still kill lol

There was a menders staff thief hitting for 6k on his vaults. Knights and paladins can hit 2-3k bounds, 2-3k staff 3s, and 6k vaults as well.

Also, you should watch Anya's stream or some other staff thieves play. I've seen some of them contest 1v4 at mid for an extended period of time.

Menders I believe, but the others? I need to see builds. I'll take a look. 1v4 on point contest as a thief sounds unbelievable, unless you sacrifice all of your damage output for some kind of gimmick and the entire team wastes time trying to kill you.

If condi thief needs tweaks it needs tweaks. There was a poison stacking issue not far out of the gate to begin with.

Mmm

  • Menders and Paladins have 1050 power
  • Knights has 900 power

Not counting the precision, Menders and Paladins hit for the same with Knights falling only slightly behind.

Also, 1vX on staff thief isn't very far-fetched considering the build has extremely high evade uptimes with a trick that removes the punish frames.

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@shadowpass.4236 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:Low defense? A lot of them run knight/paladin amulet with dolyak runes.

Plus, they have extremely high
active
defenses with all of the evades and low cd stun break.

A Knight/Paladin Daredevil with Dolyak runes isn't going to kill anything, and also isnt going to be able to contest a point for very long.It's either full Condi with carrion/rabid or Mara/Demo if you want to have any kind of presence for thieves.

Yeah it can still kill lol

There was a menders staff thief hitting for 6k on his vaults. Knights and paladins can hit 2-3k bounds, 2-3k staff 3s, and 6k vaults as well.

Also, you should watch Anya's stream or some other staff thieves play. I've seen some of them contest 1v4 at mid for an extended period of time.

This is what I mean by my previous post:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Tayga.3192 said:I haven't been playing lately but is condi thief really that big of a problem?

Middle tier Thieves no. Good Thieves, debatable. Great Thieves, the kitten is broken when people know telegraphs well and can actually dodge everything you do that is important because the class is providing them that much dodge/evade power.

The people who are confused as to why this build is being discussed, haven't seen the great thieves that actually know how to troll on that build. It's also important to point out the ridiculously high frequency of poison that it is pumping out, which nerfs all the heals of the opponents in a team fight. This build isn't OP in the way that people are thinking we are discussing. It's more OP in the way that Bunker Druids were OP in old HoT meta, before all the hard nerfs. Where it can 1v3+ troll and actually has enough attrition and poison heal nerfs to be dangerous over the course of time.

I don't even care about non Staff Daredevil variants. It's the Staff on Daredevil with Acro that becomes silly. I love how in a single patch, Arenanet removes evade frame from Druid Staff 3, then gives Daredevil permanent Dodging/Evading. Makes sense.

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@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:I love how in a single patch, Arenanet removes evade frame from Druid Staff 3, then gives Daredevil permanent Dodging/Evading. Makes sense.

What do you mean by "then gives"? DrD and Acro has always existed as in nothing changed for it with the update that also removed evade from Druid Staff 3, Acro Staff was even more powerful long time ago, Anet didn't give Acro Staff any buffs or changes in the update that you mentioned, in fact it lowered the evade of Daggerstorm at least.

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If staff thief is on the sides, being capable of side node and brawling, why is that bad?

This is what many thieves wanted.

I seen many of you who don't like thief can 1 v x, but were fine when your class did or does it.

Acro staff got no more dodges than it had before, only weakening strikes and escapist fortitude were changed, but the heal in fortitude was already free.

Havoc mastery was also taken before the patch, so the bonus 7% damage was there.

Essentially it got a free condi clear on evades.

I read the patch notes, and it seems the intent was to make them melee oriented.

So, what do you want?

take away the condi clear? fix the "trick" on staff?

I play the staff thief, and the combo i use to most effect is palidins and eagle (or divinity).

I mean if it has to be nerfed, okay. I had fun, but out of 480 ranked games i played, I rarely saw any staff thief that had skill besides Anya, Vallun, and someone else I forgot. (i saw plenty of s/d, few condis, and a few dp that were really skillful though)

I feel like I am the only potato who played it.

But, I KNOW...I KNOW....it can be frustrating to kill these guys.

i can live without the "trick" and putting a cooldown on EF if it needs to happen, but literally other than that, how did you deal with staff thieves before?

The trick has been here the whole time.

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@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:Deadly Ambition has had it's bug fixed.

Deadly Ambition: Fixed a bug that could cause this trait to activate multiple times on the same target without going on cooldown.

Someone run a mock and see if we are still looking at overperformance in terms of poison stacks from the DA line.

It doesn't really seem to be perfectly fixed. Sometimes you get more poison that u should, but so far i've seen only 1 wonky detonate cluster for 6 poison stacks when it should have been 3. Which is definetely better than the 10-12 garanteed before

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