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in twitch.Why are there few people watching Guild Wars 2?


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@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:My guess is because there isn't a lot worth watching in the game. It's one of those better playing than watching.

I mean...is it though?

You have to really keep in mind that there are a multitude of streamers whose fanbase watch them
and
play at the same time. Doing one or the other aren't mutually exclusive activities. In fact if you watch those streams you can
see
said people show up in the stream as they likely use it to find out where they are in a city or zone or whatever and then go and see them. Or they participate in a dungeon, or raid, or whatever else kind of group content in whatever game.

It's really hard to understand for those unintiated in the first place the way PvP works in this game. I don't watch Guild Wars 2 streams, and never have. I have occasionally watched other streams. I love playing Guild Wars 2, but I don't necessarily love watching it.

Hmm well thats because there isn't much worth watching, which is something that has been repeated a few times here. More people watch BDO than GW2 and I'd argue that BDO has the same, if not more, visual noise during combat
and
a more complex combat system.
However
it has arguably more worthwhile to watch content than GW2. Daily node wars (large scale PvP battles in the open world) and weekly territory wars (even larger scale PvP battles to claim castles in the open world). BDO streamers also know a great deal about the game and share information and advice on a large variety of things.

@"Dami.5046" said:I don't see why it's so important. When I played Aion( 3 odd years ago) hardly anyone streamed and it (for a while) was successful and dare I say it a more exciting game to watch. Same with the first game. The closest I got was watching the re-runs of our Guild's GVG and discussing them on TS.I watch a couple of streams here and there. But considering the content of some I can read how people think about this game every day on these forums. I shall leave this post there.

You might have played Aion "3 odd years ago" but thats a game that was released in
2008
and it had long since lost
much
of its following and playerbase years prior to "3 odd years ago". Similar to GW1, released in 2005. Twitch really only started getting traction in the latter parts of 2013, and growing further in 2014.
Before
that Twitch was essentially Justin.tv which was a bit of an obscure early streaming platform back in 2007 when it released.

I think some people forget how
recent
Twitch as a thing really is. Its been there for a bit, but the way it grew beginning in 2013 and further wasn't
that
long ago.

Feels a bit disingenuous. That is you say in one part of your post to someone else that older games are going to get less hits than current games, and then ignore the fact that the US release of BDO is five years later than Anets. You want to compare them you really have to either go back in time and see what Anet's numbers were in 2015 or so to really compare the two games.

To my recollection I don't think there's that much of a difference in the numbers between then and now. I don't know when Black Desert Online approaches it's 7th birthday if it will have quite as many streamers.

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@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:My guess is because there isn't a lot worth watching in the game. It's one of those better playing than watching.

I mean...is it though?

Just going to put this out there ... there is something FUNDAMENTALLY wrong with a game when someone chooses to watch another play it than play it themselves.

And relevant to the OP ... it's likely related to the kind of person that GW2 appeals to in the first place. Without a better description, 'casual' players don't tend to have hours to sit around and watch videos about games they want to play, EVEN if they liked watching them.

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@Vayne.8563 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:My guess is because there isn't a lot worth watching in the game. It's one of those better playing than watching.

I mean...is it though?

You have to really keep in mind that there are a multitude of streamers whose fanbase watch them
and
play at the same time. Doing one or the other aren't mutually exclusive activities. In fact if you watch those streams you can
see
said people show up in the stream as they likely use it to find out where they are in a city or zone or whatever and then go and see them. Or they participate in a dungeon, or raid, or whatever else kind of group content in whatever game.

It's really hard to understand for those unintiated in the first place the way PvP works in this game. I don't watch Guild Wars 2 streams, and never have. I have occasionally watched other streams. I love playing Guild Wars 2, but I don't necessarily love watching it.

Hmm well thats because there isn't much worth watching, which is something that has been repeated a few times here. More people watch BDO than GW2 and I'd argue that BDO has the same, if not more, visual noise during combat
and
a more complex combat system.
However
it has arguably more worthwhile to watch content than GW2. Daily node wars (large scale PvP battles in the open world) and weekly territory wars (even larger scale PvP battles to claim castles in the open world). BDO streamers also know a great deal about the game and share information and advice on a large variety of things.

@"Dami.5046" said:I don't see why it's so important. When I played Aion( 3 odd years ago) hardly anyone streamed and it (for a while) was successful and dare I say it a more exciting game to watch. Same with the first game. The closest I got was watching the re-runs of our Guild's GVG and discussing them on TS.I watch a couple of streams here and there. But considering the content of some I can read how people think about this game every day on these forums. I shall leave this post there.

You might have played Aion "3 odd years ago" but thats a game that was released in
2008
and it had long since lost
much
of its following and playerbase years prior to "3 odd years ago". Similar to GW1, released in 2005. Twitch really only started getting traction in the latter parts of 2013, and growing further in 2014.
Before
that Twitch was essentially Justin.tv which was a bit of an obscure early streaming platform back in 2007 when it released.

I think some people forget how
recent
Twitch as a thing really is. Its been there for a bit, but the way it grew beginning in 2013 and further wasn't
that
long ago.

Feels a bit disingenuous. That is you say in one part of your post to someone else that older games are going to get less hits than current games, and then ignore the fact that the US release of BDO is five years later than Anets. You want to compare them you really have to either go back in time and see what Anet's numbers were in 2015 or so to really compare the two games.

To my recollection I don't think there's that much of a difference in the numbers between then and now. I don't know when Black Desert Online approaches it's 7th birthday if it will have quite as many streamers.

Fair point, age could be a factor. However I was responding in regards to the specific point of "visual noise" that was being made. There are for sure a number of factors, but when you are attempting to pinpoint one as a cause then of course there will be a response in regards to that.

As for actually looking back on the numbers in say...2015 for GW2, on average numbers have been somewhat similar, but GW2 peaks far less than BDO does, and BDO has had a relatively steady upwards incline whereas GW2 has stagnated, or more accurately just remained mostly level. Basically BDO was able to, more early on, take advantage of Twitch than GW2 was able to initially. Considering Justin.tv transitioned into Twitch in 2011 or so and, as was outlined, gained more traction in 2013 into 2014. Which lines up with when ANet introduced the Partner Program in 2015.

! EB7FODq.png

! ubyVPgr.png

I won't deny age can be a factor, but I don't think that "visually cluttered and noisy" (paraphrasing) is an adequate evaluation of the why.

Also to clarify, my point was not that "older games get less hits" than current games, it is more of the timing in which all of these factors were occurring and that their perspective example of Aion doesn't really hold up terribly well considering the timing. Especially if one wants to make the argument of "GW2 isn't dead" which it isn't but its definitely not a game that, currently, has much in the way of content "worth" watching, or rather to retain watchers. Aion,at the time of the growth Twitch saw, was definitely in a relative "non-existent" state and seeing as GW2 was released at these times then GW1 was "less relevant" in that sphere.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:My guess is because there isn't a lot worth watching in the game. It's one of those better playing than watching.

I mean...is it though?

Just going to put this out there ... there is something FUNDAMENTALLY wrong with a game when someone chooses to watch another play it than play it themselves.

And relevant to the OP ... it's likely related to the kind of person that GW2 appeals to in the first place. Without a better description, 'casual' players don't tend to have hours to sit around and watch videos about games they want to play, EVEN if they liked watching them.

That doesn't even sound accurate much less look it.

Often times people will watch a streamer play a game to decide if it looks interesting to them, then go and buy it then play it. Also to play it with said streamer for either community driven events or otherwise. Also there is the added element of people watching for the streamer's personality. Do you think WoW, LoL, Apex, Fortnite, Minecraft, Teamfight Tactics, GTAV, or really any of the top viewed games on Twitch are any less fun to actually play than they are to watch a streamer play? Of course they have an interest in the game, or a growing interest, which is why they even watch at all. Of course the streamer personality plays a role there, but I highly doubt the vast majority of their viewers don't also play the game and enjoy it quite a lot.

Maybe you, or many here, don't find WoW fun, or they don't find LoL fun...but that is all entirely subjective and you don't have to agree with it (I don't, I hate LoL and all MOBAs) but that doesn't mean everyone shares your sentiments or your perspective. It feels rather flimsy to equate watching a game "over playing it" to simply imply that the game has something "wrong" with it.

Keep in mind, the same goes for GW2 and I do not dispute that but whether age is a factor, or timing, or popularity is subjective and perspective and context is important to consider. You can't just write it off as "GW2 is just more fun to play" or "Clearly these other games have something wrong with them", that is horribly unrealistic thinking.

You like the game, thats fine, I like the game, but I'm not going to delude myself because I don't agree with the fact that other people like other games.

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@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:My guess is because there isn't a lot worth watching in the game. It's one of those better playing than watching.

I mean...is it though?

Just going to put this out there ... there is something FUNDAMENTALLY wrong with a game when someone chooses to watch another play it than play it themselves.

And relevant to the OP ... it's likely related to the kind of person that GW2 appeals to in the first place. Without a better description, 'casual' players don't tend to have hours to sit around and watch videos about games they want to play, EVEN if they liked watching them.

That doesn't even
sound
accurate much less look it.

Often times people will watch a streamer play a game to decide if it looks interesting to them, then go and buy it then play it. Also to play it
with
said streamer for either community driven events or otherwise. Also there is the added element of people watching for the streamer's personality. Do you think WoW, LoL, Apex, Fortnite, Minecraft, Teamfight Tactics, GTAV, or really any of the top viewed games on Twitch are any less fun to actually play than they are to watch a streamer play? Of course they have an interest in the game, or a growing interest, which is why they even watch at all. Of course the streamer personality plays a role there, but I highly doubt the vast majority of their viewers don't also play the game and enjoy it quite a lot.

Maybe
you
, or many here, don't find WoW fun, or they don't find LoL fun...but that is all entirely subjective and you don't have to agree with it (I don't, I
hate
LoL and all MOBAs) but that doesn't mean everyone shares your sentiments or your perspective. It feels rather flimsy to equate watching a game "over playing it" to simply imply that the game has something "wrong" with it.

Keep in mind, the same goes for GW2 and I do not dispute that but whether age is a factor, or timing, or popularity is subjective and perspective and context is important to consider. You can't just write it off as "GW2 is just more fun to play" or "Clearly these other games have something wrong with them", that is horribly unrealistic thinking.

You like the game, thats fine, I like the game, but I'm not going to delude myself because I don't agree with the fact that other people like other games.

Pretty much this. To be frank, all of this "It's more fun to play the game" stuff is a transparent way to blow off a legitimate concern without having to tackle it logically. The facts are pretty simple:

People watch others play games.Very few people watch others play GW2.Therefore, there must be a reason why this is so.

To say that one doesn't understand the premise doesn't make it go away. There's countless reasons why somebody would watch a game instead of playing it. That, however, isn't the important part. The important question is why they don't watch GW2. There's a lot of free advertising to be earned in user-generated content, so it should be a very real concern for Anet that GW2 doesn't get any.

I'm not much of a twitch guy myself, but I watch plenty of players on Youtube. I made a post detailing some of the reasons earlier in the thread, but that isn't some grand revelation. It is just the stuff that other games have that I watch, that GW2 doesn't have:

ClarityInteractive EnvironmentsRich EnvironmentsGood LootStatusGoalsClear Demonstrations of SkillLoreTime investment

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@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:My guess is because there isn't a lot worth watching in the game. It's one of those better playing than watching.

I mean...is it though?

You have to really keep in mind that there are a multitude of streamers whose fanbase watch them
and
play at the same time. Doing one or the other aren't mutually exclusive activities. In fact if you watch those streams you can
see
said people show up in the stream as they likely use it to find out where they are in a city or zone or whatever and then go and see them. Or they participate in a dungeon, or raid, or whatever else kind of group content in whatever game.

It's really hard to understand for those unintiated in the first place the way PvP works in this game. I don't watch Guild Wars 2 streams, and never have. I have occasionally watched other streams. I love playing Guild Wars 2, but I don't necessarily love watching it.

Hmm well thats because there isn't much worth watching, which is something that has been repeated a few times here. More people watch BDO than GW2 and I'd argue that BDO has the same, if not more, visual noise during combat
and
a more complex combat system.
However
it has arguably more worthwhile to watch content than GW2. Daily node wars (large scale PvP battles in the open world) and weekly territory wars (even larger scale PvP battles to claim castles in the open world). BDO streamers also know a great deal about the game and share information and advice on a large variety of things.

@"Dami.5046" said:I don't see why it's so important. When I played Aion( 3 odd years ago) hardly anyone streamed and it (for a while) was successful and dare I say it a more exciting game to watch. Same with the first game. The closest I got was watching the re-runs of our Guild's GVG and discussing them on TS.I watch a couple of streams here and there. But considering the content of some I can read how people think about this game every day on these forums. I shall leave this post there.

You might have played Aion "3 odd years ago" but thats a game that was released in
2008
and it had long since lost
much
of its following and playerbase years prior to "3 odd years ago". Similar to GW1, released in 2005. Twitch really only started getting traction in the latter parts of 2013, and growing further in 2014.
Before
that Twitch was essentially Justin.tv which was a bit of an obscure early streaming platform back in 2007 when it released.

I think some people forget how
recent
Twitch as a thing really is. Its been there for a bit, but the way it grew beginning in 2013 and further wasn't
that
long ago.

Feels a bit disingenuous. That is you say in one part of your post to someone else that older games are going to get less hits than current games, and then ignore the fact that the US release of BDO is five years later than Anets. You want to compare them you really have to either go back in time and see what Anet's numbers were in 2015 or so to really compare the two games.

To my recollection I don't think there's that much of a difference in the numbers between then and now. I don't know when Black Desert Online approaches it's 7th birthday if it will have quite as many streamers.

Fair point, age could be a factor. However I was responding in regards to the specific point of "visual noise" that was being made. There are for sure a number of factors, but when you are attempting to pinpoint one as a cause then of course there will be a response in regards to that.

As for actually looking back on the numbers in say...2015 for GW2, on average numbers have been somewhat similar, but GW2 peaks
far less
than BDO does, and BDO has had a relatively steady upwards incline whereas GW2 has stagnated, or more accurately just remained mostly level. Basically BDO was able to, more early on, take advantage of Twitch than GW2 was able to initially. Considering Justin.tv transitioned into Twitch in 2011 or so and, as was outlined, gained more traction in 2013 into 2014. Which lines up with when ANet introduced the Partner Program in 2015.

!
EB7FODq.png

!
ubyVPgr.png

I won't deny age can be a factor, but I don't think that "visually cluttered and noisy" (paraphrasing) is an adequate evaluation of the
why
.

Also to clarify, my point was not that "older games get less hits" than current games, it is more of the timing in which all of these factors were occurring and that their perspective example of Aion doesn't really hold up terribly well considering the
timing
. Especially if one wants to make the argument of "GW2 isn't dead" which it isn't but its definitely not a game that, currently, has much in the way of content "worth" watching, or rather to
retain
watchers. Aion,at the time of the growth Twitch saw, was definitely in a relative "non-existent" state and seeing as GW2 was released at these times then GW1 was "less relevant" in that sphere.

There are always multiple factors of why anything happens, but I've heard time and again that Guild Wars 2 PvP is hard to follow and part of that reason, though not all of it, is particle effects.

One of the devs said at one point that dedicated PvPers only make up 10% of the game's population so probably most players couldn't follow a PvP tournament anyway, and people who don't play couldn't at all.

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@"KryTiKaL.3125" said:

That doesn't even sound accurate much less look it.

Often times people will watch a streamer play a game to decide if it looks interesting to them, then go and buy it then play it. Also to play it with said streamer for either community driven events or otherwise. Also there is the added element of people watching for the streamer's personality. Do you think WoW, LoL, Apex, Fortnite, Minecraft, Teamfight Tactics, GTAV, or really any of the top viewed games on Twitch are any less fun to actually play than they are to watch a streamer play? Of course they have an interest in the game, or a growing interest, which is why they even watch at all. Of course the streamer personality plays a role there, but I highly doubt the vast majority of their viewers don't also play the game and enjoy it quite a lot.

Maybe you, or many here, don't find WoW fun, or they don't find LoL fun...but that is all entirely subjective and you don't have to agree with it (I don't, I hate LoL and all MOBAs) but that doesn't mean everyone shares your sentiments or your perspective. It feels rather flimsy to equate watching a game "over playing it" to simply imply that the game has something "wrong" with it.

Keep in mind, the same goes for GW2 and I do not dispute that but whether age is a factor, or timing, or popularity is subjective and perspective and context is important to consider. You can't just write it off as "GW2 is just more fun to play" or "Clearly these other games have something wrong with them", that is horribly unrealistic thinking.

You like the game, thats fine, I like the game, but I'm not going to delude myself because I don't agree with the fact that other people like other games.

I can tell you that you're gonna be wasting your time here, these guys don't "get" it and don't want to "get". I suspect the main reason is that it's a situation where their chosen product is "losing out" to another in some area and that's impossible for some people to accept so they'll sneer at it and deride those who enjoy it.

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@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:My guess is because there isn't a lot worth watching in the game. It's one of those better playing than watching.

I mean...is it though?

Just going to put this out there ... there is something FUNDAMENTALLY wrong with a game when someone chooses to watch another play it than play it themselves.

And relevant to the OP ... it's likely related to the kind of person that GW2 appeals to in the first place. Without a better description, 'casual' players don't tend to have hours to sit around and watch videos about games they want to play, EVEN if they liked watching them.

That doesn't even
sound
accurate much less look it.

That's because you didn't understand. What I find fun or not is irrelevant to my statement. My statement had NOTHING to do with why people stream games or why people watch them. We aren't talking about the scenario where someone watches to get a sense for what the game is like before buying it. We are talking about people who watch instead of play ... and it's reasonable to think that's NOT likely to be the kind of players this game attracts. This is a reason GW2 doesn't have high twitch activity.

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there are three games I watch (on youtube):

World of Tanks (to remind me why I don't play it anymore)World of Warships (to remind me why I don't touch it. So so tempting, but basically it suffers from the same bullkitten as WoT)Warthunder (because I am pretty new to that game and don't know the maps by heart).

I don't watch apex, forthnight and all the others, because it bores me. I tried, I really do. I had a friend who was a World of Warcraft fanatic. Watched him several times playing it, was all that was needed to keep me away from it. Same for Diablo 2 and everything afterwards.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:My guess is because there isn't a lot worth watching in the game. It's one of those better playing than watching.

I mean...is it though?

Just going to put this out there ... there is something FUNDAMENTALLY wrong with a game when someone chooses to watch another play it than play it themselves.

Yes this is exactly why watching sport events is so popular -because there's something FUNDAMENTALLY WRONG WITH SPORT!!!11 :lol:If anything's "fundamentally wrong" here, it's clearly your biased statement.

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Because the devs chose to compromise their original design goals and copy how raids work from other games, making them compete with said games, which cannot be competed with, simultaenously failing to make any impact on existing players/viewers or carve out it's own niche of new players/viewers.

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@Sobx.1758 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:My guess is because there isn't a lot worth watching in the game. It's one of those better playing than watching.

I mean...is it though?

Just going to put this out there ... there is something FUNDAMENTALLY wrong with a game when someone chooses to watch another play it than play it themselves.

Yes this is exactly why watching sport events is so popular -because there's something FUNDAMENTALLY WRONG WITH SPORT!!!11 :lol:If anything's "fundamentally wrong" here, it's clearly your biased statement.

The obvious difference between traditional sports and games is that the barrier to entry in traditional sports is very high. You literally cannot play football any time you want to. You have to get equipment, find other people, and schedule a field. And even then you'd be doing it at such an amateur level that what you are doing can't really even be called "football" anyway.

With games, the barrier to entry is practically non-existent. There are many factors stopping the vast majority of people from being able to play a RL sport, but there are virtually no factors inhibiting anyone's ability to play a game.

That's why you cannot compare the two in an apples to apples fashion for your point.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:My guess is because there isn't a lot worth watching in the game. It's one of those better playing than watching.

I mean...is it though?

Just going to put this out there ... there is something FUNDAMENTALLY wrong with a game when someone chooses to watch another play it than play it themselves.

I guess there's fundamentally wrong with everyone who watches events like the Olympics then.

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@mtpelion.4562 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:My guess is because there isn't a lot worth watching in the game. It's one of those better playing than watching.

I mean...is it though?

Just going to put this out there ... there is something FUNDAMENTALLY wrong with a game when someone chooses to watch another play it than play it themselves.

Yes this is exactly why watching sport events is so popular -because there's something FUNDAMENTALLY WRONG WITH SPORT!!!11 :lol:If anything's "fundamentally wrong" here, it's clearly your biased statement.

The obvious difference between traditional sports and games is that the barrier to entry in traditional sports is very high.

lmao, no it's not. There's plenty of publicly open spaces -if not straight up playing fields- where amateurs can do what they want for fun. You don't need to be a pro, you don't NEED any professional equipment like you try to claim. That's just straight up false. Literally any kid can go out and play with random kids in his old shoes. The same goes for when you're older, claiming that there's a "barrier to entry" because you need expensive gear is just laughable. Also if you can affort a decent pc, you can also affort gear. You don't need to, you don't have to like it (but that wasn't the point in that responce), but if you WANT to play something, there's no high barrier holding you back.

And even then you'd be doing it at such an amateur level that what you are doing can't really even be called "football" anyway.

Holy kitten, hold me... If you're not a professional, you're not playing the game! :lol:Wrong on so many levels and ACTUALLY literally applies to the streamers/proplayers/amateur gamers. Apparently if you're not a contracted e-sports player, you're not supposed to play anything on your pc, because there are people better than you. Get out.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:My guess is because there isn't a lot worth watching in the game. It's one of those better playing than watching.

I mean...is it though?

Just going to put this out there ... there is something FUNDAMENTALLY wrong with a game when someone chooses to watch another play it than play it themselves.

And relevant to the OP ... it's likely related to the kind of person that GW2 appeals to in the first place. Without a better description, 'casual' players don't tend to have hours to sit around and watch videos about games they want to play, EVEN if they liked watching them.

That doesn't even
sound
accurate much less look it.

That's because you didn't understand. What I find fun or not is irrelevant to my statement. My statement had NOTHING to do with why people stream games or why people watch them. We aren't talking about the scenario where someone watches to get a sense for what the game is like before buying it. We are talking about people who watch instead of play ... and it's reasonable to think that's NOT likely to be the kind of players this game attracts. This is a reason GW2 doesn't have high twitch activity.

None of that makes any sense. It isn't that I "didn't understand" it is that what you said doesn't...make sense.

You're trying to connect this idea that a game that is popular to watch being played has "something wrong with it" because people watch it being played and that is an unrealistic train of thought. I'm pretty sure its already well established that the people who watch these games also play them. Which there is visible and tangible proof of when you just tune into streams. People watch those games because they play them, or have an interest in playing them, or they like the streamer. Or all of the above.

We're not talking about people who "watch instead of play" because that kind of severe disconnect isn't there. Again...look to streamers that play with their viewers, streamers that run events in the games they play that get participation from their viewers. With that readily available and established information the point attempting to be made of "they watch instead of play" makes no sense. Twitch even has a tag that is literally "Playing with Viewers".

https://www.twitch.tv/directory/all/tags/ac763b17-7bea-4632-9eb4-d106689ff409

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@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:My guess is because there isn't a lot worth watching in the game. It's one of those better playing than watching.

I mean...is it though?

Just going to put this out there ... there is something FUNDAMENTALLY wrong with a game when someone chooses to watch another play it than play it themselves.

And relevant to the OP ... it's likely related to the kind of person that GW2 appeals to in the first place. Without a better description, 'casual' players don't tend to have hours to sit around and watch videos about games they want to play, EVEN if they liked watching them.

That doesn't even
sound
accurate much less look it.

That's because you didn't understand. What I find fun or not is irrelevant to my statement. My statement had NOTHING to do with why people stream games or why people watch them. We aren't talking about the scenario where someone watches to get a sense for what the game is like before buying it. We are talking about people who watch instead of play ... and it's reasonable to think that's NOT likely to be the kind of players this game attracts. This is a reason GW2 doesn't have high twitch activity.

None of that makes any sense.

Well, it does so ... /shrug. I'm not making an point about how useful twitch is or isn't. I'm describing why I would think a casual GW2 doesn't watch it.

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