The new PvP meta - whine till a class is deleted. - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

The new PvP meta - whine till a class is deleted.

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  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zin Dau.1749 said:
    LMAO took them 4 years to notice a "degenerate" trait.

    What really happened was they nerfed Mesmer entirely to the ground in the last few months, that so few traits and playstyles remain playable. Now the devs continue taking away the last toys for Mesmers, even as Mesmers scrape the bottom of the barrel to try to stay competitive.

    Ironically the more they nerf Mesmers, the more "degenerate" they get. So how healthy and successful were the other "rebalancing" acts? As they continue to break Chronomancer into unplayable mess, expect many more Mesmers to switch to the more annoying Mirage that people hate more.

    Or, and hear me out here, something that was previously not problematic rose to become a large issue as other builds left the spotlight. There are always many things like that in any game, but they simply aren't an issue because of how rarely they're seen or because something else, that is then later on nerfed, used to keep them in check. Stop crying about your class being nerfed.

    Bite me.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 5, 2019

    @apharma.3741 said:
    The shocking thing to me was seeing it referred to as "degenerate play". That's not the kind of professionalism I'd expect from a company, let alone a representative of the company that enabled this despite many warnings by their community for over 2 years that lowering cool downs was a bad idea.

    The term "Degenerate play" is used in all sorts of competitive scenes. It has more than it's place in the professionalism you involve.

    If it's taken as a insult like I'm seeing a few of people actually doing so, you've got the wrong idea of the term and should look it up.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭

    @Zin Dau.1749 said:

    @Blocki.4931 said:

    Or, and hear me out here, something that was previously not problematic rose to become a large issue as other builds left the spotlight. There are always many things like that in any game, but they simply aren't an issue because of how rarely they're seen or because something else, that is then later on nerfed, used to keep them in check. Stop crying about your class being nerfed.

    Or hear me out here, they removed all the fun aspects of a class, leaving the "degenerate" aspects, such that players have no other choice than to stack up and rely on the narrow playstyle by devs 'grand vision' . So thanks for removing the fun aspects as long as losers cry enough.

    And hear me out here, sore losers will always complain about this or that class or ability. Complain until the only viable build to remain Is the stunlock build. So good job on complaining about the wrong things.

    You can imply that the majority of people will definitely not pick the most viable option at all and that this is all everyone else fault for what it has come to now.

    Knowingly that this build was still used way before it was the only option left. Considering it's the only one I couldn't kill in a 1v1 duel (Not conquest mind you.) nor have I seen anyone reliably because they have all of the possible denial they can ever need to annihilate every single build but something with massive AoE spam. With so much avoidance and sustain, CI was just the biggest offender because it worked with the entire setup that would be spammed constantly without any hope. You can still play that build without CI, why was CI so important? Everything else is the same, what happened to the idea of disengaging and bait people into attacks?

    -Sincerly from a Revenant who has fought a Mirage for 20 minutes before giving up, which still thinks condition damage on Mirage shouldn't have been nerfed but it's sustain rather.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Zin Dau.1749 said:

    @Blocki.4931 said:

    Or, and hear me out here, something that was previously not problematic rose to become a large issue as other builds left the spotlight. There are always many things like that in any game, but they simply aren't an issue because of how rarely they're seen or because something else, that is then later on nerfed, used to keep them in check. Stop crying about your class being nerfed.

    Or hear me out here, they removed all the fun aspects of a class, leaving the "degenerate" aspects, such that players have no other choice than to stack up and rely on the narrow playstyle by devs 'grand vision' . So thanks for removing the fun aspects as long as losers cry enough.

    And hear me out here, sore losers will always complain about this or that class or ability. Complain until the only viable build to remain Is the stunlock build. So good job on complaining about the wrong things.

    You can imply that the majority of people will definitely not pick the most viable option at all and that this is all everyone else fault for what it has come to now.

    Knowingly that this build was still used way before it was the only option left. Considering it's the only one I couldn't kill in a 1v1 duel (Not conquest mind you.) nor have I seen anyone reliably because they have all of the possible denial they can ever need to annihilate every single build but something with massive AoE spam. With so much avoidance and sustain, CI was just the biggest offender because it worked with the entire setup that would be spammed constantly without any hope. You can still play that build without CI, why was CI so important? Everything else is the same, what happened to the idea of disengaging and bait people into attacks?

    -Sincerly from a Revenant who has fought a Mirage for 20 minutes before giving up, which still thinks condition damage on Mirage shouldn't have been nerfed but it's sustain rather.

    or mb let us play mirage as sustain fighter it was designed to be? and not push EVERY kitten THING into 1shot clown fiesta, its fun for 30min then it gets borking, i would rather fight someone for 30min trying to find a crack in their defence or waiting for their mistakes to pile up instead of this kitten you die in 0,5s gg thing almost every meta build has right now. as for degenerate, i find thief daggerstorming 4 times back to back degenerate, or ranger throwing charging pet at me for 16k damage, and if i dodge he jut kitten off behind a wall to let his pet nibble on me for 3k dmg

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 5, 2019

    @apharma.3741 said:
    Edit: The shocking thing to me was seeing it referred to as "degenerate play". That's not the kind of professionalism I'd expect from a company, let alone a representative of the company that enabled this despite many warnings by their community for over 2 years that lowering cool downs was a bad idea.

    That's the rhetoric of an undercover dev who ran into a foul mouthed CI Mirage. Keep in mind the balance team has acquired some new blood recently, and some old blood may have been reintroduced after being pulled off culled projects.

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays every class]
    [JUST GIT EVEN GUDDER ITS FINE]

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Curunen.8729 said:
    Interestingly in the announcement he mentioned one of the reasons for not being able to get this changed until the next balance update is because it would involve changes to multiple traits.

    I can't work out what that could be referring to aside from CI, unless the change they have in mind also requires supplementary changes to take into account knock on effects. Can't be anything on mirage line specifically as nothing interacts with CI, it's kind of standalone in application, same as mantra.

    Truth be told i think its not specifically mirage that the CI issue. The only thing mirage has that interacts with CI is the sword ambush i think mirage mostly comes into the picture with its insane condition pressure combined with the pressure CI provides on top. Overall it leads to a lot of "Not your turn yet." situations in way too many matchup. In the event it becomes the other persons turn the mesmer can choose to use a 4 second invuln, break target, blink, or stealth.... Mirage just has the most of these tools so its probably why it was called out directly. Most people dont play base mesmer in pvp and chrono is not as insane as it was with the rework. They practically lost a sustain tool if they choose to use C-Split offensively they can also no longer use it from a non combat situation like before granted their ability to one shot is still possible. Its more balanced.

    Generally CI + on demand mantra stun needed to be looked into long before now. Mirage just made it more obnoxious and impossible for a lot (the majority) of builds/professions to deal with. While a few still can handle it (Thief) a lot of things cannot. realistically before the chrono rework Chronomancer held just as much pressure with CI possibly still does.

    Over all the only way to deal with CI properly was to endure the CC's and not use skills. Or hope you had enough evades to cover dodging attacks until the mesmer used their cc's. Stability can certainly not be seen as a stable counter here as most builds in pvp include some way of stripping boons.. Yet the catch 22 is mesmer has optional traits that make things do more damage for not activating skills. So either you always allow the mesmer to make the first move and dont use your skills hoping to not get essentially double punished on button press command while rewarding the mesmer from up to 1200 range. ITs because mesmer has alot of traits that synergies that are considerably more potent than a good majority of other professions traits.

    Anet is left with a choice to take a good long look at all these traits or just cull the one trait causing the problem which likely wont stop the problem. In a nutshell there are a lot of things that perhaps anet is finally listening about that should have been handled long ago and slipped through the cracks repeatedly.

    As far as how it negatively effects pvp fighting the build for im guessing the majority of peoples is very demoralizing even more so if some "Butt" is playing it with from a god complexity perspective and ruining another persons pvp experience. Its a hard truth to face but some people are indeed toxic like that and bent on having a good time by ruining another persons experience. Having a busted build or play style that can enable such habits does not help.

    To be frank.. Sage Mantra Firebrand should be on their radar too. Its not far off from the insanity that CI is in terms of "not your turn" the only way to counter a or its on trait effect mantra is to simply endure it. Provided you have the power to endure it the caster then has multiple ways to reset a fight and force you to endure it again. These play styles are not healthy.

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 5, 2019

    I mean....

    @Vincenzo.3145 said:
    That's kitten. Here's some counterplay right here.
    /wiki resistance

    If you actually wiki resistance, you'll see that the pool of class specs that actually have access to resistance is very small. Also, the resistance given is short duration in most cases and, being a boon, is subject to Arcane Thievery or Sigil of Absorption/Annulment. It isn't counterplay, its resistance, pun not intended.

    Or maybe we could see how THEY would like it if we took to their forums and started whining about their classes. Because that's CLEARLY the intelligent thing to do.

    I mean... Go for it. If things on a particular class have no or very little counterplay and promote a playstyle that is unbalanced, you are absolutely free to make a discussion like everyone who has been complaining about CI has been doing and open that opinion to critique. That's how the forums work. Every other class has been on the chopping block when something was given to them that let them bypass counterplay. Join the party.

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays every class]
    [JUST GIT EVEN GUDDER ITS FINE]

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 6, 2019

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Curunen.8729 said:
    Interestingly in the announcement he mentioned one of the reasons for not being able to get this changed until the next balance update is because it would involve changes to multiple traits.

    I can't work out what that could be referring to aside from CI, unless the change they have in mind also requires supplementary changes to take into account knock on effects. Can't be anything on mirage line specifically as nothing interacts with CI, it's kind of standalone in application, same as mantra.

    Truth be told i think its not specifically mirage that the CI issue. The only thing mirage has that interacts with CI is the sword ambush i think mirage mostly comes into the picture with its insane condition pressure combined with the pressure CI provides on top. Overall it leads to a lot of "Not your turn yet." situations in way too many matchup. In the event it becomes the other persons turn the mesmer can choose to use a 4 second invuln, break target, blink, or stealth.... Mirage just has the most of these tools so its probably why it was called out directly. Most people dont play base mesmer in pvp and chrono is not as insane as it was with the rework. They practically lost a sustain tool if they choose to use C-Split offensively they can also no longer use it from a non combat situation like before granted their ability to one shot is still possible. Its more balanced.

    Generally CI + on demand mantra stun needed to be looked into long before now. Mirage just made it more obnoxious and impossible for a lot (the majority) of builds/professions to deal with. While a few still can handle it (Thief) a lot of things cannot. realistically before the chrono rework Chronomancer held just as much pressure with CI possibly still does.

    Over all the only way to deal with CI properly was to endure the CC's and not use skills. Or hope you had enough evades to cover dodging attacks until the mesmer used their cc's. Stability can certainly not be seen as a stable counter here as most builds in pvp include some way of stripping boons.. Yet the catch 22 is mesmer has optional traits that make things do more damage for not activating skills. So either you always allow the mesmer to make the first move and dont use your skills hoping to not get essentially double punished on button press command while rewarding the mesmer from up to 1200 range. ITs because mesmer has alot of traits that synergies that are considerably more potent than a good majority of other professions traits.

    Anet is left with a choice to take a good long look at all these traits or just cull the one trait causing the problem which likely wont stop the problem. In a nutshell there are a lot of things that perhaps anet is finally listening about that should have been handled long ago and slipped through the cracks repeatedly.

    As far as how it negatively effects pvp fighting the build for im guessing the majority of peoples is very demoralizing even more so if some "Butt" is playing it with from a god complexity perspective and ruining another persons pvp experience. Its a hard truth to face but some people are indeed toxic like that and bent on having a good time by ruining another persons experience. Having a busted build or play style that can enable such habits does not help.

    To be frank.. Sage Mantra Firebrand should be on their radar too. Its not far off from the insanity that CI is in terms of "not your turn" the only way to counter a or its on trait effect mantra is to simply endure it. Provided you have the power to endure it the caster then has multiple ways to reset a fight and force you to endure it again. These play styles are not healthy.

    I agree with a lot of what you're saying - especially the playstyles being incentivised through certain changes. Pre HoT I dabbled with condirupt using scepter/focus and staff, using CI, which at that time was a below average compared with just straight shatter etc, but was a fun thing to mess around with the immobilise (this was before they merged the boons into it) and actually fairly weak in that state of the game.

    Trouble with the powercreep is the standard IH mirage with staff deals out enough pressure through relatively brainless clone ambushes that old stuff like interrupt traits and so on is flavouring on top of a strong base, no sacrifice needed.

    I would be pleasantly surprised to see in the next or a future patch for many traits to be looked at, to sort this mess out where there are one or two strong and easier to play builds being incentivised, with many other build choices significantly weaker than those optimal ones, though given history of patches I'm not holding my breath over it.

    Oh and I certainly agree there are toxic mesmer players in the game who play for their own reasons, though as with every "main" population there are nice people and bad apples.

    Bottom line is mirage is still strong - I have zero problem playing it - but I neither like the thematic choices Anet has made for the playstyle being encouraged, nor the slow and seemingly surface level method of change of balance in general, or the occasional contradictory change without sufficient explanation (removal of IP from Chrono).

    I would imagine we'll see changes for mirage to encourage the playstyle of the spec's name - eg lower instantaneous burst output (changing F1/2 shatters - yes will be hard for me to swallow as I do enjoy landing a fat mind wrack crit) but encouraging the blending in with clones, landing player ambushes (adjusting them upwards ) control through being deceptive, and so on. Ideally we'd have Core being the old school standard "shatter" gameplay for +1 burst etc, Chrono being team support (but I don't agree with the way they've changed it), and Mirage a harrasing duelist (it's late and I can't think of proper words to use at the moment). Leaves the next elite spec for hopefully a control/denial playstyle (with tradeoff of damage output or similar).

    My ears, how are you! | Kourna Jackrabbit for default Springer

  • The kitten trait has been there for so long then all of a sudden so many people using then its now that they start to complain and call it op like come on

  • Kylden Ar.3724Kylden Ar.3724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    I used to play CI although in a power build, freaking stab counters the entire build!
    You know how "degenerate" the entire community is when they prefer to come to forums getting traits nerfed instead of changing one or two skills on their build.

    Ya know, strangely enough, Zeromis ran dom/dueling marauders power mes and still had enough of a brain + boon strip without arcane thievery/annulment to beat bunker boonbeast at its prime in a 1v1 when it took siamoth for plasma and dolyak stance.

    "You know how 'degenerate' the entire mesmer community is when they prefer to come to forums getting traits nerfed instead of changing one or two skills on their build."

    It's not like zeromis is awesome, is more like everyone else in NA is lackluster.

    Your last sentence makes no sense at all.

    Mesmer community is the most self-conscious community in the game, hence we were the ones proposing a series of nerfs that would made mirage balance. At the same time you and your knowledgeable community were spamming threads saying "nerf X and mirage will be fine" every single patch.
    But good news ANerf took all your suggestions instead and you're still crying nerf x now, mirage still op.

    I just wanna know if ANet is going to change my mesmer main, with all my playtime, map complete, and story completion into an Ele or something I am allowed to play without having to re-roll every patch.

    Cause I am sick of trying to play around the limits being imposed by people that don't play it.

    How many times we gotta tell you GRIND IS NOT CONTENT there ANet?

    Leader of Tyrian Adventure Corp [TACO], [RaW][TACO] Alliance, Kaineng.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 6, 2019

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:

    Cause I am sick of trying to play around the limits being imposed by people that don't play it.

    CI mesmer limited the use of many builds in PvP. For example, reapers would get completely shut down by the build to the point where they were unable to move or cast skills for 10+ seconds.

    That's not fun, nor balanced for anyone involved. There was a plat 3 necro player who quit playing on stream because he was fighting multiple CI mesmers every match. It got to the point where it didn't even matter if his hands were touching the keyboard, there was just nothing he could do on his main class. He got desperate and swapped to thief for a match before he left so he could at least stand a chance against them.

    Speak of playing around limits... lol

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 6, 2019

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    The shocking thing to me was seeing it referred to as "degenerate play". That's not the kind of professionalism I'd expect from a company, let alone a representative of the company that enabled this despite many warnings by their community for over 2 years that lowering cool downs was a bad idea.

    The term "Degenerate play" is used in all sorts of competitive scenes. It has more than it's place in the professionalism you involve.

    If it's taken as a insult like I'm seeing a few of people actually doing so, you've got the wrong idea of the term and should look it up.


    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    ...degenerate play is a very specific term in game design and competitive gaming ...

    A degenerate strategy is a way of playing a video game that exploits an oversight in gameplay mechanics or design.

    Degenerate strategies do not break the rules of a game like a code or a cheat, but they do prevent the game from being experienced in the manner intended by the game designer.

    https://www.techopedia.com/definition/27042/degenerate-strategy

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    The shocking thing to me was seeing it referred to as "degenerate play". That's not the kind of professionalism I'd expect from a company, let alone a representative of the company that enabled this despite many warnings by their community for over 2 years that lowering cool downs was a bad idea.

    The term "Degenerate play" is used in all sorts of competitive scenes. It has more than it's place in the professionalism you involve.

    If it's taken as a insult like I'm seeing a few of people actually doing so, you've got the wrong idea of the term and should look it up.


    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    ...degenerate play is a very specific term in game design and competitive gaming ...

    A degenerate strategy is a way of playing a video game that exploits an oversight in gameplay mechanics or design.

    Degenerate strategies do not break the rules of a game like a code or a cheat, but they do prevent the game from being experienced in the manner intended by the game designer.

    https://www.techopedia.com/definition/27042/degenerate-strategy

    That's cool and all, but I got moderated for saying "degenerate companions".
    Now, didn't the mods know that term? I can argue that I was referring to some people that used that strategy. Or did they assumed I was being disrespectful?
    It goes to both sides.

    Checkmate ANerf.

    There is many words that can be used in one way but not others. It's nothing to be proud of.

    Tell that to Irenio.

    The degenerate

  • Levetty.1279Levetty.1279 Member ✭✭✭

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:

    Cause I am sick of trying to play around the limits being imposed by people that don't play it.

    CI mesmer limited the use of many builds in PvP. For example, reapers would get completely shut down by the build to the point where they were unable to move or cast skills for 10+ seconds.

    That's not fun, nor balanced for anyone involved. There was a plat 3 necro player who quit playing on stream because he was fighting multiple CI mesmers every match. It got to the point where it didn't even matter if his hands were touching the keyboard, there was just nothing he could do on his main class. He got desperate and swapped to thief for a match before he left so he could at least stand a chance against them.

    Speak of playing around limits... lol

    How does CI Mesmer stop Reaper from doing map and story completion?

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 6, 2019

    I wish these "pros" played gw1. If you think CI mirage is op, annoying, unfun, etc, you would break your pc, gouge your eyes off and scream to the four winds after facing gw1 mes.
    Of course back then there weren't any snowflake kittens on game, and people didn't depend on devs to win some matches...

    The degenerate

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    The shocking thing to me was seeing it referred to as "degenerate play". That's not the kind of professionalism I'd expect from a company, let alone a representative of the company that enabled this despite many warnings by their community for over 2 years that lowering cool downs was a bad idea.

    The term "Degenerate play" is used in all sorts of competitive scenes. It has more than it's place in the professionalism you involve.

    If it's taken as a insult like I'm seeing a few of people actually doing so, you've got the wrong idea of the term and should look it up.


    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    ...degenerate play is a very specific term in game design and competitive gaming ...

    A degenerate strategy is a way of playing a video game that exploits an oversight in gameplay mechanics or design.

    Degenerate strategies do not break the rules of a game like a code or a cheat, but they do prevent the game from being experienced in the manner intended by the game designer.

    https://www.techopedia.com/definition/27042/degenerate-strategy

    I don't think the techopedia definition is the one ArenaNet is using, though. The only way that boonsmite or CI mesmer could be called "a way of playing a video game that exploits an oversight in gameplay mechanics or design" is if you regard making a build that's too powerful to be a design oversight, in which case it's pretty much a redundant term.

    Given that a lot of the ArenaNet devs took a lot of inspiration from M:tG, it's likely that the Magic-related explanations given at https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/713590/what-degenerate-play is what the devs are referring to. In Magic, a "degenerate" deck was one that relied on stacking the deck with lots of copies of the same win-condition card or set of cards. The equivalent in a Guild Wars setting is a teambuild which encourages stacking multiple copies of the same build - such as Iway, boonsmite, and behaviour I've heard of in the previous season where people would switch to mesmer after entering a PvP in order to stack mesmers.

    As opposed to certain other builds which have been in the meta which are powerful in ways that don't encourage stacking - usually involving being powerful in some specific aspect but needing other builds to cover their weaknesses.

    @Levetty.1279 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:

    Cause I am sick of trying to play around the limits being imposed by people that don't play it.

    CI mesmer limited the use of many builds in PvP. For example, reapers would get completely shut down by the build to the point where they were unable to move or cast skills for 10+ seconds.

    That's not fun, nor balanced for anyone involved. There was a plat 3 necro player who quit playing on stream because he was fighting multiple CI mesmers every match. It got to the point where it didn't even matter if his hands were touching the keyboard, there was just nothing he could do on his main class. He got desperate and swapped to thief for a match before he left so he could at least stand a chance against them.

    Speak of playing around limits... lol

    How does CI Mesmer stop Reaper from doing map and story completion?

    How important is CI in map and story completion? I've done fine on mesmer without using that trait in PvE (not to mention that it's still available in PvE, I believe).

    More broadly, though, I do sympathise: one of the things that's really frustrating about playing mesmer is that it has a tendency to get redesigned from the ground up (or at least have an elite specialisation redesigned from the ground up) something like once a year or so. It's part of the reason why, while I consider guardian and mesmer to be my top two preferred professions, guardian just wins out: the guardian community might have turned "guardian is in a good spot" into a meme, but guardian design is at least fairly stable - there have been a few tweaks around the edges, but relatively few cases of something being sent back to the drawing board and redesigned from scratch, and those that have occurred have usually been with an intent to buff rather than to nerf. You can see this in the builds being used: there are builds that are still doing reasonably well in PvP and WvW that are relatively minor modifications of builds that predated HoT.

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 6, 2019

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    The shocking thing to me was seeing it referred to as "degenerate play". That's not the kind of professionalism I'd expect from a company, let alone a representative of the company that enabled this despite many warnings by their community for over 2 years that lowering cool downs was a bad idea.

    The term "Degenerate play" is used in all sorts of competitive scenes. It has more than it's place in the professionalism you involve.

    If it's taken as a insult like I'm seeing a few of people actually doing so, you've got the wrong idea of the term and should look it up.


    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    ...degenerate play is a very specific term in game design and competitive gaming ...

    A degenerate strategy is a way of playing a video game that exploits an oversight in gameplay mechanics or design.

    Degenerate strategies do not break the rules of a game like a code or a cheat, but they do prevent the game from being experienced in the manner intended by the game designer.

    https://www.techopedia.com/definition/27042/degenerate-strategy

    That's cool and all, but I got moderated for saying "degenerate companions".
    Now, didn't the mods know that term? I can argue that I was referring to some people that used that strategy. Or did they assumed I was being disrespectful?
    It goes to both sides.

    Checkmate ANerf.

    Well, they clearly don't want us playing. And I'm willing to help them with that.

    I chuckled when he said "gold1 player from EU" is good and its more than enough to get rank1 on NA. I'm dying :joy:
    Truly shows how trash NA players are

  • @Kylden Ar.3724 said:
    So, this happened --

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/83741/chaotic-interruption-temporarily-disabled-in-pvp

    Competitive is pretty much dead to me. Disable AN ENTIRE TRAIT for 3 months because it's too hard to just add an internal cooldown?

    Which as I'm not interested in grinding in PvE, and there's no LS for a while, guess I am kinda done with the game for the most part for a quarter. Got a boss blitz event tonight with the guild alliance, assuming that can keep me interested for more than an hour, then guess I will come back for about 3 hours when LS5E1 hits.

    IMO anet is acting like a "fireman", just do something when is a bit too late, and something that is just extreme. Remove an entire trait... the funny thing is that trait has been there for ages, i've been using that for ages... no problem...
    but suddenly everyone starts to use mantra and CI, then whinners come to forums and anet decide to remove something that has been there for ages...

    what is really sad, and something to worry about, is "got anet any plan?", i mean, if they need to have ppl and ppl crying on forums to notice there is a problem with skill/trait?

    1 problem is that there are players that are just looking for the most op kitten and dont think in a single build by themselves, their fun is a "win", but i wonder how anet cuts down a trait that way...

  • What is not use cannot harm ppl ... but once everyone uses it - it might become a " degenerate play and negatively affecting PvP."

    So I don't get why ppl are mad since it's not intended to be that way but you couldn't know it could affect the game that badly since no one used it for X reasons.
    Anet is a company and they have decisions to make in accord of their vision the game should have.

    CI is not intended but they can't fix it yet... What should they have done then appart from disabling it? People are really too whiny and unrealistic here.

  • Could be worse... you could be like Thief, where a New PvP ruleset completely DISABLES a major kitten part of your class.

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 7, 2019

    @Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:
    Could be worse... you could be like Thief, where a New PvP ruleset completely DISABLES a major kitten part of your class.

    Hard facts. Imagine not being able to use a mechanic your class is built around for a large portion of its damage mitigation if you want to 2v2. If you dont have HoT expack and run condi daredevil thief, you're screwed.

    @judgebeo.3976 said:

    IMO anet is acting like a "fireman", just do something when is a bit too late, and something that is just extreme. Remove an entire trait... the funny thing is that trait has been there for ages, i've been using that for ages... no problem...
    but suddenly everyone starts to use mantra and CI, then whinners come to forums and anet decide to remove something that has been there for ages...

    Imagine being sick for a good portion of your life and a doctor finds out what your illness is, but you get angry at the doctor for suggesting they cure it because you've had it for so long.

    Something being broken for a long time doesn't insulate it against fixing.

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays every class]
    [JUST GIT EVEN GUDDER ITS FINE]

  • Zin Dau.1749Zin Dau.1749 Member ✭✭✭

    The player's job is to find the best build. They didn't design the "degenerate" skills or this situation where stunlock build is top tier. Any designer worth their salt knows that over abundance of griefing skills together is not fun. That's why it's fine for several years, because the former design teams knew to keep it in check. In particular, this build won't work without good control. So particularly baffling is a recent patch when they buffed up an instant cast daze to 50% longer duration.

    It was after this new "grand vision of design" ideology sprang up that healthy Mesmer builds were in neverending flux. That the designers left players no choice but to seek alternative builds. Unfortunately for other classes, this build happened to be super effective at griefing and degenerate gameplay.

    In a way, when devs try to mess with mesmers, the mesmers get the last laugh.

  • Bigpapasmurf.5623Bigpapasmurf.5623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Heartpains.7312 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    In the entire traitlines:
    Duelling - 1good trait
    Chaos - dead at pvp, 1 good trait in wvw
    Illusion - 1 good trait
    Dom - 2 or 3 good traits
    Inspi - meme traitline
    Mirage - 1 good trait
    Chrono - dead thanks to no ip

    Next on the lines - IH to end mirage once and for all.

    I think they will start with "redesigning" shatters for mirage and they will make it so we need at least 1 illusion to shatter, of course the redesigned shatters are weaker =p

    At this point, if they bring back on demand shatters Ill take the "1 clone minimum"

    Red = Dead...or someone runs away. Either way it's gone.
    twitch.tv/TRMC
    Lover of Jumping puzzles, Squirrels, WvW, and Taimi
    Co-Leader of SOmething inAPpropriate {SOAP}

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 7, 2019

    @Jasher.6580 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:
    Could be worse... you could be like Thief, where a New PvP ruleset completely DISABLES a major kitten part of your class.

    Hard facts. Imagine not being able to use a mechanic your class is built around for a large portion of its damage mitigation if you want to 2v2. If you dont have HoT expack and run condi daredevil thief, you're screwed.

    @judgebeo.3976 said:

    IMO anet is acting like a "fireman", just do something when is a bit too late, and something that is just extreme. Remove an entire trait... the funny thing is that trait has been there for ages, i've been using that for ages... no problem...
    but suddenly everyone starts to use mantra and CI, then whinners come to forums and anet decide to remove something that has been there for ages...

    Imagine being sick for a good portion of your life and a doctor finds out what your illness is, but you get angry at the doctor for suggesting they cure it because you've had it for so long.

    Something being broken for a long time doesn't insulate it against fixing.

    Imagine having a skin condition on your face for a good portion of your life and the doctor finds out what your illness is, but he tells you to wear a bag on your head until they find out how to clean up your skin because it is too offensive for others to look at.

    Me: Um... okay doc, when are you gonna find the cure? How long do I have to wear this? There aren't even any holes in it, I can't breathe properly... I can't see. You are limiting my physical capabilities.

    Doc: Bruh... I'm not sure but you have to wear this bag until then... nobody deserves to see that face.

    Me: But my face broke out like this because of the cream you gave me... so this is your fault.

    Doc: Yeah... well such is life.

    This analogy works if you are a gorgon and people seeing your face kills them.

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays every class]
    [JUST GIT EVEN GUDDER ITS FINE]

  • Kylden Ar.3724Kylden Ar.3724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Simonoly.4352 said:
    I didn't realise so many people were so unprepared for interrupt playstyles that Anet had to disable some functionality to help them. It's a bit...tragic. GW1 Mesmer certainly turning in its grave right now.

    Also, counterplay to CI/MoD combo: stability, cleansing, resistance, cancel casting, cover casting, general awareness that there is a class that can reactively interrupt your small cast time skills where usually there's no possibility of an interrupt occurring and, umm, Thieves.

    Too bad they went for, "Whine until the trait gets disabled because apparently a 10 second ICD is hard to add."

    How many times we gotta tell you GRIND IS NOT CONTENT there ANet?

    Leader of Tyrian Adventure Corp [TACO], [RaW][TACO] Alliance, Kaineng.

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 13, 2019

    @judgebeo.3976 said:
    you didnt understand nothing or just manipulate part of my threat to get an argument. The questions are:

    • If is broken why it didn't been a problem for that LOOOONG time?

    Because originally it wasn't broken or not run, but recent patches and synergies caused it to become broken. Mirage is fairly recent, and they have only considered running CI en masse because the other, easier builds have been nerfed down.

    • I f is broken why didnt anet detect it before a bunch of whinners came to forums?

    See above. It was either originally not broken, and became that way due to recent synergies, or it was broken and mirage mains only started considering it because their other options are now more difficult to use.

    • if is broken for ages why didnt find a better way than remove the entire trait?

    They specified that they have a better way to fix this trait, but it would require a significant rework of the synergies it touches. They can only do major balance patches intermittently. In the meanwhile, to prevent people from being incredibly toxic with the build, they disabled the trait. It isnt gone permanently.

    I can just put a ton of question to say that the problem is not that the trait is broken or not, the problem is that anet just one to ppl shut up on the forums and, actually, give us the feelling that they didn't understand their own game.

    The release of Mirage and the reworks to chronomancer that caused all of the visual culling because of the phantasm spam made everyone else feel like Anet didn't understand their own game. Welcome to the party. We've all felt that way for a long time.

    So, for you to understand, im not discussing if it is broken or not, we can discuss this in other threat, im saying that devs seems to have no idea (or got some strange plan) about what is happening in the game, and just wait and if there is bunch of people on forums crying like little kids, as a bad father, anet, do whatever is necessary for the kid to shut up.

    You are entitled to that opinion. Everyone else feels like that to some extent as well. If your intent is to say "anet doesnt understand the game", I would say you're late to that feeling for some reason. What really matters, though, is whether or not they were justified in doing it.

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays every class]
    [JUST GIT EVEN GUDDER ITS FINE]

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zin Dau.1749 said:
    The player's job is to find the best build. They didn't design the "degenerate" skills or this situation where stunlock build is top tier. Any designer worth their salt knows that over abundance of griefing skills together is not fun. That's why it's fine for several years, because the former design teams knew to keep it in check. In particular, this build won't work without good control. So particularly baffling is a recent patch when they buffed up an instant cast daze to 50% longer duration.

    It was after this new "grand vision of design" ideology sprang up that healthy Mesmer builds were in neverending flux. That the designers left players no choice but to seek alternative builds. Unfortunately for other classes, this build happened to be super effective at griefing and degenerate gameplay.

    In a way, when devs try to mess with mesmers, the mesmers get the last laugh.

    Mesmers have been in neverending flux pretty much since the game released.

  • Engal.6359Engal.6359 Member ✭✭✭

    Look I main mesmer CI was truly stupid and deserved to die. People who tell you otherwise are apologists for the poor class design of mirage or were getting carried by CI. I love mesmer, but I think that they just need to kill condi mirage for good, it ruins the game and is boring af to play.

    Pls just play power....

  • @Engal.6359 said:
    Look I main mesmer CI was truly stupid and deserved to die. People who tell you otherwise are apologists for the poor class design of mirage or were getting carried by CI. I love mesmer, but I think that they just need to kill condi mirage for good, it ruins the game and is boring af to play.

    Pls just play power....

    why? I personally find 1shot and move on combat trully kitten boring. and to add to it power mirage is a kitten version of other power specs like revenant or thief.

  • Engal.6359Engal.6359 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 10, 2019

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Engal.6359 said:
    Look I main mesmer CI was truly stupid and deserved to die. People who tell you otherwise are apologists for the poor class design of mirage or were getting carried by CI. I love mesmer, but I think that they just need to kill condi mirage for good, it ruins the game and is boring af to play.

    Pls just play power....

    why? I personally find 1shot and move on combat trully kitten boring. and to add to it power mirage is a kitten version of other power specs like revenant or thief.

    I didnt say play a one shot build. Believe it or not, it is possible to play a non-meme, non-cancer version of mesmer.

    And if you think power mes is just like rev, you obviously dont understand the class.

    I sense a triggered CI player who is mad they can't get carried by busted condi anymore

    Edit: spelling

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 10, 2019

    @Engal.6359 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Engal.6359 said:
    Look I main mesmer CI was truly stupid and deserved to die. People who tell you otherwise are apologists for the poor class design of mirage or were getting carried by CI. I love mesmer, but I think that they just need to kill condi mirage for good, it ruins the game and is boring af to play.

    Pls just play power....

    why? I personally find 1shot and move on combat trully kitten boring. and to add to it power mirage is a kitten version of other power specs like revenant or thief.

    I didnt say play a one shot build. Believe it or not, it is possible to play a non-meme, non-cancer version of mesmer.

    And if you think power mes is just like rev, you obviously dont understand the class.

    I sense a triggered CI player who is mad they can't get carried by busted condi anymore

    Edit: spelling

    Hmm If I just read the forums :
    1) tank mesmer is meme noobcarry build.
    2) condi mesmer is meme noobcarry build.
    3) burst mesmer is meme noobcarry build.
    4) lock mesmer is meme noobcarry build.
    5) utility (portal/veil/alacrity bot) mesmer if fine but was gut (and boring to play btw.).
    Conclusion : the good mesmer is the mesmer who die in 10 sec when selected.

  • @judgebeo.3976 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:
    Could be worse... you could be like Thief, where a New PvP ruleset completely DISABLES a major kitten part of your class.

    Hard facts. Imagine not being able to use a mechanic your class is built around for a large portion of its damage mitigation if you want to 2v2. If you dont have HoT expack and run condi daredevil thief, you're screwed.

    @judgebeo.3976 said:

    IMO anet is acting like a "fireman", just do something when is a bit too late, and something that is just extreme. Remove an entire trait... the funny thing is that trait has been there for ages, i've been using that for ages... no problem...
    but suddenly everyone starts to use mantra and CI, then whinners come to forums and anet decide to remove something that has been there for ages...

    Imagine being sick for a good portion of your life and a doctor finds out what your illness is, but you get angry at the doctor for suggesting they cure it because you've had it for so long.

    Something being broken for a long time doesn't insulate it against fixing.

    you didnt understand nothing or just manipulate part of my threat to get an argument. The questions are:

    • If is broken why it didn't been a problem for that LOOOONG time?
    • If is broken why didnt anet detect it before a bunch of whinners came to forums?
    • if is broken for ages why didnt find a better way than remove the entire trait?
    • ....

    I can just put a ton of question to say that the problem is not that the trait is broken or not, the problem is that anet just one to ppl shut up on the forums and, actually, give us the feelling that they didn't understand their own game.

    So, for you to understand, im not discussing if it is broken or not, we can discuss this in other threat, im saying that devs seems to have no idea (or got some strange plan) about what is happening in the game, and just wait and if there is bunch of people on forums crying like little kids, as a bad father, anet, do whatever is necessary for the kid to shut up.

    Easy, they were other more broken builds in the game already, lets not forget that ci mirage was the consequence of every nerf that regular condi mirage recieved, making axe useless, nerfing condi application and several other things, i don't play condi so i won't get into details.

    Once they destroyed condi builds, like hybrid horizon, or pu condi mirage, people looked for something else to play, since most of the mesmers hate the power builds. And they discovered it wasn't such a bad idea to switch all the damage into cc.

  • BadMed.3846BadMed.3846 Member ✭✭✭

    @Engal.6359 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @Engal.6359 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Engal.6359 said:
    Look I main mesmer CI was truly stupid and deserved to die. People who tell you otherwise are apologists for the poor class design of mirage or were getting carried by CI. I love mesmer, but I think that they just need to kill condi mirage for good, it ruins the game and is boring af to play.

    Pls just play power....

    why? I personally find 1shot and move on combat trully kitten boring. and to add to it power mirage is a kitten version of other power specs like revenant or thief.

    I didnt say play a one shot build. Believe it or not, it is possible to play a non-meme, non-cancer version of mesmer.

    And if you think power mes is just like rev, you obviously dont understand the class.

    I sense a triggered CI player who is mad they can't get carried by busted condi anymore

    Edit: spelling

    Hmm If I just read the forums :
    1) tank mesmer is meme noobcarry build.
    2) condi mesmer is meme noobcarry build.
    3) burst mesmer is meme noobcarry build.
    4) lock mesmer is meme noobcarry build.
    5) utility (portal/veil/alacrity bot) mesmer if fine but was gut (and boring to play btw.).
    Conclusion : the good mesmer is the mesmer who die in 10 sec when selected.

    The forums hate mesmer and have for years. Nothing new.

    And that surely highlights a problem that Mesmers have had access to game breaking builds for years. A problem that is still unresolved.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 12, 2019

    @BadMed.3846 said:
    And that surely highlights a problem that Mesmers have had access to game breaking builds for years. A problem that is still unresolved.

    I doubt that will ever be solved.

    Whenever I see a Mirage in PvP (the only kind of Mesmer still playing PvP) I try ONCE to see if I have a chance (99% of the time the answer is no) and then I either run or play sitting duck for them. There is no reason to even try to fight them.

    Two semi-skilled mirage are sufficient to beat many teams of solo-Queuers.

  • @viquing.8254 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @BadMed.3846 said:
    And that surely highlights a problem that Mesmers have had access to game breaking builds for years. A problem that is still unresolved.

    I doubt that will ever be solved.

    Whenever I see a Mirage in PvP (the only kind of Mesmer still playing PvP) I try ONCE to see if I have a chance (99% of the time the answer is no) and then I either run or play sitting duck for them. There is no reason to even try to fight them.

    Two semi-skilled mirage are sufficient to beat many teams of solo-Queuers.

    that' why the 2 first people in ladder are mesmers, ho ! wait ...

    @BadMed.3846 said:

    @Engal.6359 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @Engal.6359 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Engal.6359 said:
    Look I main mesmer CI was truly stupid and deserved to die. People who tell you otherwise are apologists for the poor class design of mirage or were getting carried by CI. I love mesmer, but I think that they just need to kill condi mirage for good, it ruins the game and is boring af to play.

    Pls just play power....

    why? I personally find 1shot and move on combat trully kitten boring. and to add to it power mirage is a kitten version of other power specs like revenant or thief.

    I didnt say play a one shot build. Believe it or not, it is possible to play a non-meme, non-cancer version of mesmer.

    And if you think power mes is just like rev, you obviously dont understand the class.

    I sense a triggered CI player who is mad they can't get carried by busted condi anymore

    Edit: spelling

    Hmm If I just read the forums :
    1) tank mesmer is meme noobcarry build.
    2) condi mesmer is meme noobcarry build.
    3) burst mesmer is meme noobcarry build.
    4) lock mesmer is meme noobcarry build.
    5) utility (portal/veil/alacrity bot) mesmer if fine but was gut (and boring to play btw.).
    Conclusion : the good mesmer is the mesmer who die in 10 sec when selected.

    The forums hate mesmer and have for years. Nothing new.

    And that surely highlights a problem that Mesmers have had access to game breaking builds for years. A problem that is still unresolved.

    It only highligh that forums are full of casual who want to win duel with their gard/necro/elem/war/rev who are way better in teamfight since day 1 and they don't understand that a class who is only good at single target should always win the 1v1 versus them.
    But you know they want to feel strong by rollfacing everything.

    best thing is that warrior or holo are not even bad against power/condi mirage, all you have to do is put some practice and then you have preety much 50/50 skill matchup or even easy win if you play spellbreaker against power mirage.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭

    @viquing.8254 said:
    that' why the 2 first people in ladder are mesmers, ho ! wait ...

    Are you sure they didn't just use Duo-Queue to get easier Matchups?

  • @viquing.8254 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @BadMed.3846 said:
    And that surely highlights a problem that Mesmers have had access to game breaking builds for years. A problem that is still unresolved.

    I doubt that will ever be solved.

    Whenever I see a Mirage in PvP (the only kind of Mesmer still playing PvP) I try ONCE to see if I have a chance (99% of the time the answer is no) and then I either run or play sitting duck for them. There is no reason to even try to fight them.

    Two semi-skilled mirage are sufficient to beat many teams of solo-Queuers.

    that' why the 2 first people in ladder are mesmers, ho ! wait ...

    @BadMed.3846 said:

    @Engal.6359 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @Engal.6359 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Engal.6359 said:
    Look I main mesmer CI was truly stupid and deserved to die. People who tell you otherwise are apologists for the poor class design of mirage or were getting carried by CI. I love mesmer, but I think that they just need to kill condi mirage for good, it ruins the game and is boring af to play.

    Pls just play power....

    why? I personally find 1shot and move on combat trully kitten boring. and to add to it power mirage is a kitten version of other power specs like revenant or thief.

    I didnt say play a one shot build. Believe it or not, it is possible to play a non-meme, non-cancer version of mesmer.

    And if you think power mes is just like rev, you obviously dont understand the class.

    I sense a triggered CI player who is mad they can't get carried by busted condi anymore

    Edit: spelling

    Hmm If I just read the forums :
    1) tank mesmer is meme noobcarry build.
    2) condi mesmer is meme noobcarry build.
    3) burst mesmer is meme noobcarry build.
    4) lock mesmer is meme noobcarry build.
    5) utility (portal/veil/alacrity bot) mesmer if fine but was gut (and boring to play btw.).
    Conclusion : the good mesmer is the mesmer who die in 10 sec when selected.

    The forums hate mesmer and have for years. Nothing new.

    And that surely highlights a problem that Mesmers have had access to game breaking builds for years. A problem that is still unresolved.

    It only highligh that forums are full of casual who want to win duel with their gard/necro/elem/war/rev who are way better in teamfight since day 1 and they don't understand that a class who is only good at single target should always win the 1v1 versus them.
    But you know they want to feel strong by rollfacing everything.

    SO FREAKING TRUE!!! They blame devs and other players because they refuse to learn how to play, or understand that each class has a ROLE, like in mmorpg (massive multiplayer ROLE playing game)

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 12, 2019

    @viquing.8254 said:
    It only highligh that forums are full of casual who want to win duel with their gard/necro/elem/war/rev who are way better in teamfight since day 1 and they don't understand that a class who is only good at single target should always win the 1v1 versus them.
    But you know they want to feel strong by rollfacing everything.

    @kraai.7265 said:
    SO FREAKING TRUE!!! They blame devs and other players because they refuse to learn how to play, or understand that each class has a ROLE, like in mmorpg (massive multiplayer ROLE playing game)

    Mesmer's role is to beat, by nature of their class or their mechanical advantage, 5 of the 9 classes in game/ any class that they happen to find alone?
    Mesmers aren't also good in team fights?

    I'm not arguing that they need more nerfs at this time but these arguments are paper thin and reek of entitlement. Telling anyone it's their role to lose any matchup because of the nature of their -class- and not because of their build or their build's capabilities is asking for trouble.

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays every class]
    [JUST GIT EVEN GUDDER ITS FINE]

  • @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:
    It only highligh that forums are full of casual who want to win duel with their gard/necro/elem/war/rev who are way better in teamfight since day 1 and they don't understand that a class who is only good at single target should always win the 1v1 versus them.
    But you know they want to feel strong by rollfacing everything.

    @kraai.7265 said:
    SO FREAKING TRUE!!! They blame devs and other players because they refuse to learn how to play, or understand that each class has a ROLE, like in mmorpg (massive multiplayer ROLE playing game)

    Mesmer's role is to beat, by nature of their class or their mechanical advantage, 5 of the 9 classes in game/ any class that they happen to find alone?
    Mesmers aren't also good in team fights?

    I'm not arguing that they need more nerfs at this time but these arguments are paper thin and reek of entitlement. Telling anyone it's their role to lose any matchup because of the nature of their -class- and not because of their build or their build's capabilities is asking for trouble.

    not auto lose, get unfavoured, same as mesmer isnt useless ( unless condi ) in teamfights, just weaker.
    you have better odds of winning 1v1, you have worse odds of winning 3v3,4v4 you name it.
    and yes mesmer is kitten in teamfights, even stupid thing like retaliation can make you have to leave, land 4man GS ambush and boom you lose 3k hp, land berserker, boom another 3k.
    Oh and btw most of those " lose to mesmer " classes have actually good matchups into them if they focus on what they are doing instead of playing on autopilot.

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 12, 2019

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
    I'm not arguing that they need more nerfs at this time but these arguments are paper thin and reek of entitlement. Telling anyone it's their role to lose any matchup because of the nature of their -class- and not because of their build or their build's capabilities is asking for trouble.

    Where is the high AOE pressure damage mesmer build ? Are we talking about the massive damage of well of calamity ?
    Mesmer teamfight resume to land 1 or 2 utility then move away. Real teamfight builds are full of AOE effects should it be damage, boon, heal or whatever.
    Take it as paper if you want :
    During classic, in PvP mesmer wasn't meta at all because hard countered by thief. In WvW it was just used to portal/veil and roam.
    During HoT mesmer teamfight use was around portal and moa. (2 skills with > 60 cd.). In WvW it was just used to portal/veil/boonshare and roam.
    During PoF mesmer teamfight use was around sometimes gravity well, sometimes 5 staff cover. In WvW is was just use to portal/veil/booshare and roam.

    So now compare to real teamfight class => basically go in WvW, see who is in zerg.
    During my first 4 years of full WvW player, I probably get as much bags as a 4 months GWEN class.

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 13, 2019

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
    I'm not arguing that they need more nerfs at this time but these arguments are paper thin and reek of entitlement. Telling anyone it's their role to lose any matchup because of the nature of their -class- and not because of their build or their build's capabilities is asking for trouble.

    Where is the high AOE pressure damage mesmer build ? Are we talking about the massive damage of well of calamity ?
    Mesmer teamfight resume to land 1 or 2 utility then move away. Real teamfight builds are full of AOE effects should it be damage, boon, heal or whatever.

    The "high damage AOE pressure mesmer build" you are asking me to present is not what I asserted existed. Also, I am not arguing what constitutes a "real teamfight build."

    My assertion was that Mesmers were good in team fights. utility is considered when addressing mesmer's viability/usefulness in team fights. Direct damage does not entirely comprise how good you are in team fights. Being hard to kill or extremely debilitating to nearby enemies are also facets that make a class good or bad in a team fight. That's why we had people upset about Poison thief and Scrapper recently.

    I'd also like to note that I am talking specifically of its interactions in the PVP sphere. I am aware WvW is a mess and that some things scale very differently there, so I would like to not substitute WvW interactions for PVP/Conquest ones. our gear and comps are limited and that behavior doesnt match up with WvW utility.
    I noticed this is now in the Mesmer forums. I think originally when I posted in it, it was in the PVP forums specifically and got moved here, but whether or not that is the case apologies for not specifying the above outright.

    In PVP Conquest, we have had multiple instances of mesmer builds surface that excelled at dueling as well as supporting point fights from the outer edge. Chronobunker, Condi Axe, Condi scepter, CI/condi Staff and the other specs that have lead to steamrolling in pvp matchups were all reasonably useful in xvx matchups or outnumbers.

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    not auto lose, get unfavoured, same as mesmer isnt useless ( unless condi ) in teamfights, just weaker.

    I agree with this, -including the condition part.-

    you have better odds of winning 1v1, you have worse odds of winning 3v3,4v4 you name it.

    I also agree with this.

    and yes mesmer is kitten in teamfights, even stupid thing like retaliation can make you have to leave, land 4man GS ambush and boom you lose 3k hp, land berserker, boom another 3k.

    You're contradicting your own point, but I agree retaliation is a weakening force to mesmers in a group fight. You can strip on shatter though, so keep in mind that Retaliation isnt a hard counter to your GS ambush.

    Oh and btw most of those " lose to mesmer " classes have actually good matchups into them if they focus on what they are doing instead of playing on autopilot.

    I also agree with this, although I wouldn't call it "focusing on what they are doing." It usually required, up to this point, speccing in such a way that you were prepared for only Mesmer and nothing else. No one class should be able to shape the meta around itself to that extent.

    My focus is not on any of these statements though.

    My focus is on the fact that mesmers -have- had some pretty busted builds over the last few expansions(In PVP conquest), and the fact that nerfs are catching up to them are not the result of "casuals wanting to win duels." If you have been boosted for so long that you are willing to take that your class should automatically win 1v1s as fact, then something's wrong. Especially if that same class can also perform reasonably in xvx, just without the same overwhelming curb stomp.

    EDIT: [Displaced Charr]. Thought this was in the pvp forums and thus that it was assumed we were only talking about conquest.

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays every class]
    [JUST GIT EVEN GUDDER ITS FINE]

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 :
    Ok let's talk only about PvP then :
    Apart chronotank 1.0 and 2.0 who were nerfed as fast as they are op. (Who were more about tanking than teamfight btw.)
    A teamfight class mean for me a class that is more effective when fighting in group because she has skills interaction with ally and groups of ennemies.
    What represent this concept at this best level were GWEN class during vanilla, ele/nec during HoT and gard/nec during PoF.
    A condi thief, scrcapper or chronotank or other builds you mention will have the same effect on a 1v1 point than on a 3v3, even if they have 1 tool from time to time to assist allies.

    I think that when they released chrono, they want to give mesmer a true teamplay gameplay with aoe interaction over allies and ennemies but it failed in PvP and they never touch it since.

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