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Daredevil build with >70% Evade Uptime?


Arklite.4013

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I just ran into a daredevil who I sat on the point and fought with for maybe 6 minutes or so. I don't know very much about thief or DD but it seemed like he just jumped around constantly and had evades up maybe 90% of the time. It was ridiculous. He never killed me but I also could never kill him. What exactly did I run into?

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@"Arklite.4013" said:I just ran into a daredevil who I sat on the point and fought with for maybe 6 minutes or so. I don't know very much about thief or DD but it seemed like he just jumped around constantly and had evades up maybe 90% of the time. It was ridiculous. He never killed me but I also could never kill him. What exactly did I run into?

Either DrD S/D with Acro or DrD Staff with Acro, nonetheless "6 mins" is still pretty much impossible, even if he was evading only your hard hitting skills it would still run out of evades within approximately 1.5 mins. give or take 30 seconds.

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@Alatar.7364 said:

@"Arklite.4013" said:I just ran into a daredevil who I sat on the point and fought with for maybe 6 minutes or so. I don't know very much about thief or DD but it seemed like he just jumped around constantly and had evades up maybe 90% of the time. It was ridiculous. He never killed me but I also could never kill him. What exactly did I run into?

Either DrD S/D with Acro or DrD Staff with Acro, nonetheless "6 mins" is still pretty much impossible, even if he was evading only your hard hitting skills it would still run out of evades within approximately 1.5 mins. give or take 30 seconds.Going by not being able to kill each other for 6 minutes, both builds was prolly bunkers.

I dont see how that would be impossible between a build that you cant hit and your build that wont do any damage even if you could hit.

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Staff/Staff daredevil with energy sigils on both hands and Quick Pockets.

It involves exploiting staff 3 by jumping right after activating, which can chain evades consistently. There are windows where you can strike but the thief will quickly break stun with shadowstep or something else.

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@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"Arklite.4013" said:I just ran into a daredevil who I sat on the point and fought with for maybe 6 minutes or so. I don't know very much about thief or DD but it seemed like he just jumped around constantly and had evades up maybe 90% of the time. It was ridiculous. He never killed me but I also could never kill him. What exactly did I run into?

Either DrD S/D with Acro or DrD Staff with Acro, nonetheless "6 mins" is still pretty much impossible, even if he was evading only your hard hitting skills it would still run out of evades within approximately 1.5 mins. give or take 30 seconds.Going by not being able to kill each other for 6 minutes, both builds was prolly bunkers.

I dont see how that would be impossible between a build that you cant hit and your build that wont do any damage even if you could hit.

I was talking about the Evade uptime OP was talking about, depending on what bunker build OP was playing the Thief still wanted to either dodge his CCs or Dodge to gain bonus dmg, both ways even with the extreme evade builds I dont see this happening for 6 mins.

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What tends to happen is the person in question uses his/her evades to avoid a given attack. This does not translate to 90 percent evade uptime. If I make an attack on an enemy once every 3 seconds and he manages to evade 4 of my attacks as the 5th gets through the evade uptime is on the order of 20 percent.

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In reality a bounding Dodger staff build using sig of agility can get like 8 sec (real time) aprox of consecutive evades in which its traited fully into evading giving up dps. Half of these evade frames having long enough after casts for punishment as well as being predictable. After those 8 or so seconds the thief will have little resources and will have to disengage if opponent knows how to properly pressure them. The ini/endurance loop built into the build is far from infinitely sustainable. The thief continually dodged for more than a few sec real time which in game can feel far longer while not being pressured etc is all that happened here.Builds been around yrs now.

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It was probably just staff/staff dd, but based on this:

I don't know very much about thief or DD but it seemed like he just jumped around constantly

I'd say there's no reason to trust you with your "6 minutes" and "90% evade uptime" estimates.

Seems to me like you just saw a few evades and vaults, didn't know what is happening because you don't know anything about the class and typically went with OMG BROKEN CAN'T TOUCH HIM FOR WHOLE MATCH. Needless to say I'm not a fan of this approach and I'm instantly sceptical about anything you write in this thread now. :D

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@Arklite.4013 said:I just ran into a daredevil who I sat on the point and fought with for maybe 6 minutes or so. I don't know very much about thief or DD but it seemed like he just jumped around constantly and had evades up maybe 90% of the time. It was ridiculous. He never killed me but I also could never kill him. What exactly did I run into?

This is filled with hyperbole. None of this claim makes sense.

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did you notice any blinds? that could explain additional misses. If the fight was on a point, smoke screen blinds, and any resulting bonus stealth coming off it (if) could have saved him enough time to regen his ini and endurance to continue evading your attacks after smoke screen, then rinse and recycle. Could have been sa line traited too. If the thief is lucky enough to pull it off, it could explain the 6 minutes thing.

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@"Arklite.4013" said:and he was spamming jump, which made it visually confusing.

So literally what I wrote:"Seems to me like you just saw a few evades and vaults, didn't know what is happening because you don't know anything about the class and typically went with OMG BROKEN CAN'T TOUCH HIM FOR WHOLE MATCH."

And yet here you are calling people "clowns", good job. Claiming that DD "kept evading 90% of the time for 6 minutes and could go longer but the match ended" is laughable. If you want constructive and serious responses, how about not making up false statements like you did from the very start of this thread?

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@Arklite.4013 said:Thanks to the people writing legitimate responses. The circus clowns have a place too.

To clarify on my original post, yes, 90% evade uptime was an exaggeration, as @babazhook.6805 and others mentioned, he dodged almost all of my attacks, which isn't indicative of his actual evade uptime. The 6 minute estimate was not an exaggeration, and I have no doubt it could've gone on longer had the game not ended. I was core warrior, which doesn't have that many attacks, and he was spamming jump, which made it visually confusing. However, I was making a conscious effort to land my attacks between his evades and was totally dumbfounded by how many were constantly evaded. We were pretty much on top of eachother the whole time and I was aiming to have a hitbox out as often as possible. He used a signet or two FWIW. I know there are DD builds out there with lots of evade uptime but this seem absurd as someone who's seen a lot of absurd things in my 6 years on this game.

Well, first thing, 90% evade uptime is what's absurd since it's not reality. Evasion windows ranges from 1/2s to 3/4s, with the exception of Instant Reflex and Daggerstorm. Even if you factor all the evasion in, it will not grant a 90% evade uptime. The math don't lie.

Second, in any PvP games I've seen and participated in not once that someone was left alone in a point fighting 1v1 for more than 1 minute. I'm not sure if your team mates were laying eggs somewhere on the map that they didn't bother rotating, or maybe they're just sitting around eating popcorn watching you struggle against a squishy Thief. The fact that players are constantly rotating, your claim of fighting 1v1 for 6 minutes is implausible.

Now it seems to me that this is a perception issue. Just like many complains about Thief, they are based on what they think they saw instead of what actually had happen. In this case, we have an unreliable witness.

So here's the challenge; Try to replicate the DD build and see if you can get 90% evade uptime and last for 6 minutes on a point. Don't forget to jump around to confuse your opponent -- it's very important. Only then you'll find your answer and realize that none of what you've claimed here is plausible.

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@Sobx.1758 said:

@Arklite.4013 said:and he was spamming jump, which made it visually confusing.

So literally what I wrote:"
Seems to me like you just saw a few evades and vaults, didn't know what is happening because you don't know anything about the class and typically went with OMG BROKEN CAN'T TOUCH HIM FOR WHOLE MATCH.
"

And yet here you are calling people "clowns", good job. Claiming that DD "kept evading 90% of the time for 6 minutes and could go longer but the match ended" is laughable. If you want constructive and serious responses, how about not making up false statements like you did from the very start of this thread?

Confusing reply. The 90% claim was an exaggeration from the beginning - I even spelled it outright in my previous reply because apparently that wasn't made obvious enough in the OP.This is not, nor has it ever been a rage post or claiming the build is OP. I was just awestruck by the amount of evades I encountered, so I came here to ask about it. Deliberately blowing things out of proportion is an odd approach to take on someone else's post.

Because you'll point it out in your next reply if I don't type this - again, the 90% figure is an exaggeration.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Arklite.4013 said:Thanks to the people writing legitimate responses. The circus clowns have a place too.

To clarify on my original post, yes, 90% evade uptime was an exaggeration, as @"babazhook.6805" and others mentioned, he dodged almost all of my attacks, which isn't indicative of his actual evade uptime. The 6 minute estimate was not an exaggeration, and I have no doubt it could've gone on longer had the game not ended. I was core warrior, which doesn't have that many attacks, and he was spamming jump, which made it visually confusing. However, I was making a conscious effort to land my attacks between his evades and was totally dumbfounded by how many were constantly evaded. We were pretty much on top of eachother the whole time and I was aiming to have a hitbox out as often as possible. He used a signet or two FWIW. I know there are DD builds out there with lots of evade uptime but this seem absurd as someone who's seen a lot of absurd things in my 6 years on this game.

Well, first thing, 90% evade uptime is what's absurd since it's not reality. Evasion windows ranges from 1/2s to 3/4s, with the exception of Instant Reflex and Daggerstorm. Even if you factor all the evasion in, it will not grant a 90% evade uptime. The math don't lie.

Second, in any PvP games I've seen and participated in not once that someone was left alone in a point fighting 1v1 for more than 1 minute. I'm not sure if your team mates were laying eggs somewhere on the map that they didn't bother rotating, or maybe they're just sitting around eating popcorn watching you struggle against a squishy Thief. The fact that players are constantly rotating, your claim of fighting 1v1 for 6 minutes is implausible.

Now it seems to me that this is a perception issue. Just like many complains about Thief, they are based on what they think they saw instead of what actually had happen. In this case, we have an unreliable witness.

So here's the challenge; Try to replicate the DD build and see if you can get 90% evade uptime and last for 6 minutes on a point. Don't forget to jump around to confuse your opponent -- it's very important. Only then you'll find your answer and realize that none of what you've claimed here is plausible.

See above on the aforementioned 90% figure. Evidently I made the mistake of believing people would see a figure like "90%" and understand that it is an exaggeration. I will not make this mistake on the thief forums again.

I had other players come and fight on the point with me but I asked them to leave and do something elsewhere. The point was under our control at the time and I was more interested in the thief I was fighting than in killing him.

I do not know what build he was using. I am neither creative nor skilled enough to recreate it. I am not concerned enough to attempt it. I was intrigued enough to ask the thief forums about it.

Thanks.

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@"Arklite.4013" said:The point was under our control at the time

That seems like a bad mistake on the Thief's part... unless the game was already out of hand.

Evidently I made the mistake of believing people would see a figure like "90%" and understand that it is an exaggeration.

Don't take it personally. Somewhere around here (or maybe on the old forums), there was a semi-official "Nerf Thief" thread that kept track of all the complaints and suggestions for why the Thief needed to be nerfed. We are talking about outrageous claims and absurd reasoning (along the lines of not being able to survive alone against two or more Thieves attacking at once in WvW).

Does anybody have the link to that???

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Acro, SA, Daredevil. Staff/Staff. Pick a good rune for sustain and probably Menders.

Take Smoke Screen, Lotus dodge, and all traits to max out evades, cleanses and AoE blind.

You can basically constantly evade, AoE blind and heal or cleanse to achieve “I can’t kill anything but look how impossible I am to kill.”

Can also run the new preparation to trap opponents trying to leave their spawn. Just drop it in the path of where most of them will leave spawn and activate while they stand in it.

Basically just work to distract and keep the enemies divided up and easy for your team to focus one at a time.

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@"saerni.2584" said:Acro, SA, Daredevil. Staff/Staff.

This is where I could see Concealing Restoration (Stealth on heal) as a Minor trait being annoying for a "bunker" build.

Alas, can't we get a 1-3 second grace period in Stealth before we lose point contestation? Dagger Storm is much worse in terms of balance than short Stealth durations.

Even if Anet has to create a new effect to keep a Thief abusing the grace period by re-entering Stealth immediately after exiting it (like the old chain-CnD permastealth trick), then so be it. A Thief that has remained visible for at least 3 seconds gains an effect called "Undeniable Presence" that will last for 3 seconds while in Stealth. While the effect is present, the Thief may contest a point while in Stealth. The effect will be removed at the end of the duration or immediately upon exiting Stealth. If a Thief stays in Stealth beyond the duration, or if the Thief re-enters Stealth before the effect recharges, then a Thief may not contest a point while in Stealth. The effect will only recharge after the Thief is continuously visible for 3 seconds.

It would be a different matter if Thieves could manually exit Stealth without hitting something or using specific skills (Death's Judgement). For being the Master of Shadows, the Thief sure has a lack of control over Stealth (entering and exiting at will, and can't even remove or detect it from others).

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@Arklite.4013 said:

@Arklite.4013 said:and he was spamming jump, which made it visually confusing.

So literally what I wrote:"
Seems to me like you just saw a few evades and vaults, didn't know what is happening because you don't know anything about the class and typically went with OMG BROKEN CAN'T TOUCH HIM FOR WHOLE MATCH.
"

And yet here you are calling people "clowns", good job. Claiming that DD "kept evading 90% of the time for 6 minutes and could go longer but the match ended" is laughable. If you want constructive and serious responses, how about not making up false statements like you did from the very start of this thread?

Confusing reply. The 90% claim was an exaggeration from the beginning - I even spelled it outright in my previous reply because apparently that wasn't made obvious enough in the OP.This is not, nor has it ever been a rage post or claiming the build is OP. I was just awestruck by the amount of evades I encountered, so I came here to ask about it. Deliberately blowing things out of proportion is an odd approach to take on someone else's post.

What's exactly so confusing about my reply?What exactly was making it so obvious in your post that it was a conscious exaggeration? Because I can tell you what made me think it wasn't. You used the same language/style while stating "we fought for maybe 6 minutes" as you did when you wrote "jumped around constantly and had evades up maybe 90% of the time". Using "maybe" in both cases seems to me like you were trying to make a solid estimate while bringing up both numbers. Then you come up and say that the first one (6 minutes) wasn't an exaggeration, but second one (90% evade) obviously was while at the same time you just insulted people that called you out.I also don't think I was blowing things out of proportions, you literally wrote "It was ridiculous. He never killed me but I also could never kill him.". If you didn't mean that, then I'm not sure why you'd even write it.

Rule of thumb: if you have no idea what is happening when you play against the class, actually try playing said class/spec and make sure to read all of its traits/skills. Just asking for the build when you don't know how the class plays and what each of the skill animation is seems kind of pointless.

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@Arklite.4013 said:

@Arklite.4013 said:Thanks to the people writing legitimate responses. The circus clowns have a place too.

To clarify on my original post, yes, 90% evade uptime was an exaggeration, as @"babazhook.6805" and others mentioned, he dodged almost all of my attacks, which isn't indicative of his actual evade uptime. The 6 minute estimate was not an exaggeration, and I have no doubt it could've gone on longer had the game not ended. I was core warrior, which doesn't have that many attacks, and he was spamming jump, which made it visually confusing. However, I was making a conscious effort to land my attacks between his evades and was totally dumbfounded by how many were constantly evaded. We were pretty much on top of eachother the whole time and I was aiming to have a hitbox out as often as possible. He used a signet or two FWIW. I know there are DD builds out there with lots of evade uptime but this seem absurd as someone who's seen a lot of absurd things in my 6 years on this game.

Well, first thing, 90% evade uptime is what's absurd since it's not reality. Evasion windows ranges from 1/2s to 3/4s, with the exception of Instant Reflex and Daggerstorm. Even if you factor all the evasion in, it will not grant a 90% evade uptime. The math don't lie.

Second, in any PvP games I've seen and participated in not once that someone was left alone in a point fighting 1v1 for more than 1 minute. I'm not sure if your team mates were laying eggs somewhere on the map that they didn't bother rotating, or maybe they're just sitting around eating popcorn watching you struggle against a squishy Thief. The fact that players are constantly rotating, your claim of fighting 1v1 for 6 minutes is implausible.

Now it seems to me that this is a perception issue. Just like many complains about Thief, they are based on what they think they saw instead of what actually had happen. In this case, we have an unreliable witness.

So here's the challenge; Try to replicate the DD build and see if you can get 90% evade uptime and last for 6 minutes on a point. Don't forget to jump around to confuse your opponent -- it's very important. Only then you'll find your answer and realize that none of what you've claimed here is plausible.

See above on the aforementioned 90% figure. Evidently I made the mistake of believing people would see a figure like "90%" and understand that it is an exaggeration. I will not make this mistake on the thief forums again.

I had other players come and fight on the point with me but I asked them to leave and do something elsewhere. The point was under our control at the time and I was more interested in the thief I was fighting than in killing him.

I do not know what build he was using. I am neither creative nor skilled enough to recreate it. I am not concerned enough to attempt it. I was intrigued enough to ask the thief forums about it.

Thanks.

Your mistake is presuming that people will believe your exaggerations without data to back it up...and it's kinda insulting, really.

If you're curious about the build, then ask about it without making things up.

Just like everything else, the only real and substantive way to know for sure about a build is to play the build yourself. Or at the very least, do yourself a favor of researching the build so the next time you find a Thief with similar build, you'll know how to beat it. Everyone here conducts similar research. I personally have level 80 character for each profession. I play them so I'll know them.

Back before the Elite Specs, there was a build called Endless Dodger which is more bunker than the current iteration because Feline Grace was so good.

You claim that you're playing GW2 for 6 years and know nothing about Thief builds? That's another thing that makes your claim even less credible.

EDIT: typos

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thief can go above 100% eva(in wvw) but just because a thief can dodge forever. does not mean it can not be hit.

First way to counter dodge.Dodge in guild war 2 works as first .0150 frame is open to intrup start of a dodge roll an last .750 to .7650 after cast delay fixes player from being unable to dodge again or cast a skill that is not instant.Means if you double dodge you have a .03 window of unavoidable damage.

Second way to counter dodgeis to use wards that cause a knockdown or like effect. dodge can not go threw them with out interrupting the player.

As you can see dodging may sound overpower to someone that does not know how to play the game. but dodge is one of weakest defense in the game.

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@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Arklite.4013 said:Thanks to the people writing legitimate responses. The circus clowns have a place too.

To clarify on my original post, yes, 90% evade uptime was an exaggeration, as @"babazhook.6805" and others mentioned, he dodged almost all of my attacks, which isn't indicative of his actual evade uptime. The 6 minute estimate was not an exaggeration, and I have no doubt it could've gone on longer had the game not ended. I was core warrior, which doesn't have that many attacks, and he was spamming jump, which made it visually confusing. However, I was making a conscious effort to land my attacks between his evades and was totally dumbfounded by how many were constantly evaded. We were pretty much on top of eachother the whole time and I was aiming to have a hitbox out as often as possible. He used a signet or two FWIW. I know there are DD builds out there with lots of evade uptime but this seem absurd as someone who's seen a lot of absurd things in my 6 years on this game.

Well, first thing, 90% evade uptime is what's absurd since it's not reality. Evasion windows ranges from 1/2s to 3/4s, with the exception of Instant Reflex and Daggerstorm. Even if you factor all the evasion in, it will not grant a 90% evade uptime. The math don't lie.

Second, in any PvP games I've seen and participated in not once that someone was left alone in a point fighting 1v1 for more than 1 minute. I'm not sure if your team mates were laying eggs somewhere on the map that they didn't bother rotating, or maybe they're just sitting around eating popcorn watching you struggle against a squishy Thief. The fact that players are constantly rotating, your claim of fighting 1v1 for 6 minutes is implausible.

Now it seems to me that this is a perception issue. Just like many complains about Thief, they are based on what they think they saw instead of what actually had happen. In this case, we have an unreliable witness.

So here's the challenge; Try to replicate the DD build and see if you can get 90% evade uptime and last for 6 minutes on a point. Don't forget to jump around to confuse your opponent -- it's very important. Only then you'll find your answer and realize that none of what you've claimed here is plausible.

See above on the aforementioned 90% figure. Evidently I made the mistake of believing people would see a figure like "90%" and understand that it is an exaggeration. I will not make this mistake on the thief forums again.

I had other players come and fight on the point with me but I asked them to leave and do something elsewhere. The point was under our control at the time and I was more interested in the thief I was fighting than in killing him.

I do not know what build he was using. I am neither creative nor skilled enough to recreate it. I am not concerned enough to attempt it. I was intrigued enough to ask the thief forums about it.

Thanks.

Your mistake is presuming that people will believe your exaggerations without data to back it up...and it's kinda insulting, really.

If you're curious about the build, then ask about it without making things up.

Just like everything else, the only real and substantive way to know for sure about a build is to play the build yourself. Or at the very least, do yourself a favor of researching the build so the next time you find a Thief with similar build, you'll know how to beat it. Everyone here conducts similar research. I personally have level 80 character for each profession. I play them so I'll know them.

Back before the Elite Specs, there was a build called Endless Dodger which is more bunker than the current iteration because Feline Grace was so good.

You claim that you're playing GW2 for 6 years and know nothing about Thief builds? That's another thing that makes your claim even less credible.

EDIT: typos

Well considering I don't record my matches and the results screen doesn't really include any helpful information, I'm not sure what kind of data you would expect me to present. This wasn't a researched post. It wasn't a comparison to an attempt I had made. I only asked with the information I had and the assumption that users on the forum would be familiar enough to point me in the right direction.

I have been playing for longer than 6 years I believe. I leveled a thief to 80. I just don't enjoy the class very much so I haven't touched it since. To quote my previous comment, "I do not know what build he was using. I am neither creative nor skilled enough to recreate it. I am not concerned enough to attempt it."

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