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in twitch.Why are there few people watching Guild Wars 2?


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@Obtena.7952 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:My guess is because there isn't a lot worth watching in the game. It's one of those better playing than watching.

I mean...is it though?

Just going to put this out there ... there is something FUNDAMENTALLY wrong with a game when someone chooses to watch another play it than play it themselves.

And relevant to the OP ... it's likely related to the kind of person that GW2 appeals to in the first place. Without a better description, 'casual' players don't tend to have hours to sit around and watch videos about games they want to play, EVEN if they liked watching them.

That doesn't even
sound
accurate much less look it.

That's because you didn't understand. What I find fun or not is irrelevant to my statement. My statement had NOTHING to do with why people stream games or why people watch them. We aren't talking about the scenario where someone watches to get a sense for what the game is like before buying it. We are talking about people who watch instead of play ... and it's reasonable to think that's NOT likely to be the kind of players this game attracts. This is a reason GW2 doesn't have high twitch activity.

None of that makes any sense.

Well, it does so ... /shrug. I'm not making an point about how useful twitch is or isn't. I'm describing why I would think a casual GW2 doesn't watch it.

Declaring that something makes sense doesn't just suddenly make it so.

You are correct ... I can't speak for you're ability to understand something. I still don't think it's huge jump in logic to see that I'm not talking about the benefits of twitch. I'm talking about why people aren't watching it, given the option to play the game.

And I wasn't talking about the benefits of Twitch either...I'm talking about your correlation, in this case I guess, to if people are "given the option" to play the game "instead" of watching as being incorrect especially when I've already fully laid out that their viewers both play
and
watch along with said streamers and provided information to
support
it. That they wath
because
they play and
because
they are interested, as well as liking the streamer.

I'm not talking about the benefits of Twitch, I'm simply talking about how your perception as to
why
GW2 isn't being watched
does not
make sense and is incorrect, and I even provided information to support that position. It just seems like that is getting ignored, which is utterly unhelpful in a discussion.

I'm putting forward the idea that if a game is more interesting to watch than to play given the option, it's a problem with the game, ESPECIALLY in the context of GW2. It's not unreasonable you are being ignored because that assertion isn't nonsense. You might not agree ... that's OK. But it's not nonsensical to think this.

You stated from the onset "there is something FUNDAMENTALLY wrong with a game when someone chooses to watch another play it than play it themselves" where it was put forth that such an idea was
incorrect
and is a flimsy defense to use in the context of GW2. "Its just more fun to play than watch" probably correct, which is a problem with GW2 in some respects, as it doesn't really have content
worth
watching. Am I to understand that is the standpoint you are taking now?

What do you mean taking 'now'? ... I haven't contradicted anything I've said. I'm not sure what isn't clear to you here. It's not a far fetched idea to assume games are meant by their creators to be played, so when presented the option to play or watch someone play, if they opt to watch, there is something about the game that makes that player not want to play it. Feels like I'm explaining the obvious at this point. If you don't get it, we will have to leave it at that.

So let me get this straight...are you still saying that the games being watched
the most
on Twitch have something "fundamentally" wrong with them if they are being watched and not played?

What do mean
'still'
saying? I NEVER said games being watched 'the most' ... If this is some attempt to draw me out ... you need to get me up earlier in the morning.

It is what you said in the first place.

@"maddoctor.2738" said:My guess is because there isn't a lot worth watching in the game. It's one of those better playing than watching.

I mean...is it though?

Just going to put this out there ... there is something FUNDAMENTALLY wrong with a game when someone chooses to watch another play it than play it themselves.

And relevant to the OP ... it's likely related to the kind of person that GW2 appeals to in the first place. Without a better description, 'casual' players don't tend to have hours to sit around and watch videos about games they want to play, EVEN if they liked watching them.

How does this not imply you are saying "games that are watched and not played have something wrong with them" because that is exactly what you said, meant and implied with this post.

I'm not trying to draw you out, I'm trying to understand the zig-zagging logic and perspective that keeps happening with you.

There isn't a zig zag ... I was clear. I'm not getting into some convoluted argument about a simple point that I have made (that other players have affirmed as well). You can keep asking me what I mean in all the different ways you can think of ... it's not changing my assertion about why GW2 players are more keen to play the game than watch it being played.

If that is your point then okay, that is fine I can accept that. That is what I was looking for, an assertion of your actual point and not this convoluted defense of something you said, that was maybe unintentionally worded incorrectly, that there is apparently something "wrong" with other games because people like to watch them as well as play them.

You made some strange, sweeping statement implying that you see games that are being watched on Twitch, or whatever streaming service, have something wrong with them that makes people only want to watch them, not play them.

Again this is what you initially said...now if you maybe worded it poorly then thats fine, but you didn't walk back that statement it just looked like you were defending it as well as thinking you made your perspective clear from the get go, which you didn't (at least not in this post).

@Obtena.7952 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:My guess is because there isn't a lot worth watching in the game. It's one of those better playing than watching.

I mean...is it though?

Just going to put this out there ... there is something FUNDAMENTALLY wrong with a game when someone chooses to watch another play it than play it themselves.

Thats why your subsequent posts just looked strange and like you were just all over the place. First saying what is above, and then saying something else contrary to that and not even acknowledging, maybe "Oops, I worded that wrong".

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Yeah, i don't know how you don't understand that ... Poor wording? OK ... check any of the three or four other ways I have presented the same idea to you ... I lost count. I think that 'strange, sweeping' statement is actually not all that strange and relevant to almost any video game I've ever played. I mean, other than that one time they put animated cinematic scenes in that knight arcade game 30 years ago or tried to make movies with interactive arcade-like cutscenes with glove controllers ... playing > watching.

I don't think you have misunderstood me ... I don't 'get it' when people would rather watch than play games, especially if the kinds of people this game attracts have lifestyles that limit their game time (and I believe that is the majority of the people that play this game). The more people would rather watch a game than play it tells me the games are better movies than they are games. I'm not talking about watching to learn or see how to do something in-game either. I'm talking about legit watching someone play a game ... because that's fun to someone, MORE fun than playing the same game.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:Watching games and twitch is popular.

The top youtube stars are gamers, and twitch is a billion dollar business.

You don't have to understand it, but those are the facts.

Don't be old and scoff at the younger generations hobbies.

There was a time when someone said what you do is dumb.

Right now you can tell about how popular a game is based on yt views and twitch streams.

If GW2 has only old folks, perhaps the doom and gloom posts are not to far off.

There is no way you are under 25 and don't know how popular these media forms are.

Unless you are Amish...maybe.

I dunno ... old folks got lots of money ... IF Anet makes any revenue at all from twitch, it's certainly not close to what they get from people playing and buying gems.

in fact, while old folks got lots of money, young folks are utterly broke.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:My guess is because there isn't a lot worth watching in the game. It's one of those better playing than watching.

I mean...is it though?

Just going to put this out there ... there is something FUNDAMENTALLY wrong with a game when someone chooses to watch another play it than play it themselves.

And relevant to the OP ... it's likely related to the kind of person that GW2 appeals to in the first place. Without a better description, 'casual' players don't tend to have hours to sit around and watch videos about games they want to play, EVEN if they liked watching them.

That doesn't even
sound
accurate much less look it.

That's because you didn't understand. What I find fun or not is irrelevant to my statement. My statement had NOTHING to do with why people stream games or why people watch them. We aren't talking about the scenario where someone watches to get a sense for what the game is like before buying it. We are talking about people who watch instead of play ... and it's reasonable to think that's NOT likely to be the kind of players this game attracts. This is a reason GW2 doesn't have high twitch activity.

None of that makes any sense.

Well, it does so ... /shrug. I'm not making an point about how useful twitch is or isn't. I'm describing why I would think a casual GW2 doesn't watch it.

Declaring that something makes sense doesn't just suddenly make it so.

You are correct ... I can't speak for you're ability to understand something. I still don't think it's huge jump in logic to see that I'm not talking about the benefits of twitch. I'm talking about why people aren't watching it, given the option to play the game.

And I wasn't talking about the benefits of Twitch either...I'm talking about your correlation, in this case I guess, to if people are "given the option" to play the game "instead" of watching as being incorrect especially when I've already fully laid out that their viewers both play
and
watch along with said streamers and provided information to
support
it. That they wath
because
they play and
because
they are interested, as well as liking the streamer.

I'm not talking about the benefits of Twitch, I'm simply talking about how your perception as to
why
GW2 isn't being watched
does not
make sense and is incorrect, and I even provided information to support that position. It just seems like that is getting ignored, which is utterly unhelpful in a discussion.

I'm putting forward the idea that if a game is more interesting to watch than to play given the option, it's a problem with the game, ESPECIALLY in the context of GW2. It's not unreasonable you are being ignored because that assertion isn't nonsense. You might not agree ... that's OK. But it's not nonsensical to think this.

You stated from the onset "there is something FUNDAMENTALLY wrong with a game when someone chooses to watch another play it than play it themselves" where it was put forth that such an idea was
incorrect
and is a flimsy defense to use in the context of GW2. "Its just more fun to play than watch" probably correct, which is a problem with GW2 in some respects, as it doesn't really have content
worth
watching. Am I to understand that is the standpoint you are taking now?

What do you mean taking 'now'? ... I haven't contradicted anything I've said. I'm not sure what isn't clear to you here. It's not a far fetched idea to assume games are meant by their creators to be played, so when presented the option to play or watch someone play, if they opt to watch, there is something about the game that makes that player not want to play it. Feels like I'm explaining the obvious at this point. If you don't get it, we will have to leave it at that.

So let me get this straight...are you still saying that the games being watched
the most
on Twitch have something "fundamentally" wrong with them if they are being watched and not played?

What do mean
'still'
saying? I NEVER said games being watched 'the most' ... If this is some attempt to draw me out ... you need to get me up earlier in the morning.

It is what you said in the first place.

@"maddoctor.2738" said:My guess is because there isn't a lot worth watching in the game. It's one of those better playing than watching.

I mean...is it though?

Just going to put this out there ... there is something FUNDAMENTALLY wrong with a game when someone chooses to watch another play it than play it themselves.

And relevant to the OP ... it's likely related to the kind of person that GW2 appeals to in the first place. Without a better description, 'casual' players don't tend to have hours to sit around and watch videos about games they want to play, EVEN if they liked watching them.

How does this not imply you are saying "games that are watched and not played have something wrong with them" because that is exactly what you said, meant and implied with this post.

I'm not trying to draw you out, I'm trying to understand the zig-zagging logic and perspective that keeps happening with you.

There isn't a zig zag ... I was clear. I'm not getting into some convoluted argument about a simple point that I have made more than once that other players have affirmed as well. You can keep asking me what I mean in all the different ways you can think of ... but at this point, I don't think I can explain it in a way you will understand it.

This is exactly the point you understood you're wrong, but as usually you don't want to admit it, so you'll stick to the "I didn't literally and directly write that!" line of defense. :+1:

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@"Obtena.7952" said:I don't think you have misunderstood me ... I don't 'get it' when people would rather watch than play games, especially if the kinds of people this game attracts have lifestyles that limit their game time (and I believe that is the majority of the people that play this game). The more people would rather watch a game than play it tells me the games are better movies than they are games. I'm not talking about watching to learn or see how to do something in-game either. I'm talking about legit watching someone play a game ... because that's fun to someone, MORE fun than playing the same game.

There you go. That is what was asked for.

You did not clarify this at all. As in it was not clear that this was what you meant, in none of your posts was this idea phrased in such a way that it was coherent.

So to now properly respond to your viewpoint, its understandable that some people don't understand the desire to watch another play a video game. However I don't think that ultimately turns into a fault of the game, or that there is something wrong with the game when people watch a streamer play it. There are a number of things that affect that, either be it they just like the streamer personality, they like to watch a game played by someone because they also play it, or they have questions about the game.

I've streamed GW2 in the past, I may go back to it (not right now though) and even though I didn't garner a terribly large following, those that did watch did also play the game, they also ran into me ingame, they also interacted with me in the game and talked with me about the game. I even fought against a few of them ingame in WvW.

So I think the misundersanding, or not understanding, why people would "watch over playing" seems to come from it being just a black and white comparison. They watch or they play the game when that just isn't the case. Many watch and play the game. There is just this added element of the streamer personality that likely coaxes people to watch the game, and watch the streamer. Streams aren't just purely informational, they can be engaging and create a sense of community. There is also the content of the game that can drive some to watch rather than play or watch and play. Either to see the streamer react, or how well they do, or play through some new update alongside them. Also some people watch from their work (likely desk jobs or on their phones during their break).

GW2 just doesn't really have that, hence the comments consisting of "nothing worth watching" as Raids are...not as great as other games, Open World isn't much better, Fractals...meh, WvW is honestly getting less and less viewers, sPvP isn't much different. People really only watched streamers like Teapot for him not the game content. He does his job pretty well, and he even runs community events like his upcoming Raid one. A great many GW2 streamers have essentially moved on at this point because of these factors.

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@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:Watching games and twitch is popular.

The top youtube stars are gamers, and twitch is a billion dollar business.

You don't have to understand it, but those are the facts.

Don't be old and scoff at the younger generations hobbies.

There was a time when someone said what you do is dumb.

Right now you can tell about how popular a game is based on yt views and twitch streams.

If GW2 has only old folks, perhaps the doom and gloom posts are not to far off.

There is no way you are under 25 and don't know how popular these media forms are.

Unless you are Amish...maybe.

I dunno ... old folks got lots of money ... IF Anet makes any revenue at all from twitch, it's certainly not close to what they get from people playing and buying gems.

in fact, while old folks got lots of money, young folks are utterly broke.

Old folks spend much money on video games for themselves?

Figured they would be spending it on kids, and grandkids.

I wonder how many of those are interested in or know about GW2?

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@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:I don't think you have misunderstood me ... I don't 'get it' when people would rather watch than play games, especially if the kinds of people this game attracts have lifestyles that limit their game time (and I believe that is the majority of the people that play this game). The more people would rather watch a game than play it tells me the games are better movies than they are games. I'm not talking about watching to learn or see how to do something in-game either. I'm talking about legit watching someone play a game ... because that's fun to someone, MORE fun than playing the same game.

There
you go. That is what was asked for.

No different than the other five times I said it ... that's OK, I don't have a problem when people need to catch up.

So to now properly respond to your viewpoint, its understandable that some people don't understand the desire to watch another play a video game. However I don't think that ultimately turns into a fault of the game, or that there is something wrong with the game when people watch a streamer play it. There are a number of things that affect that, either be it they just like the streamer personality, they like to watch a game played by someone because they
also
play it, or they have questions about the game.

Again, I'm not saying there aren't reasons for people to go watch GW2 on twitch because obviously there are if they do ... I just think that says there is some fundamental issue with the game if a person would prefer doing that over playing it. For instance, someone having questions about the game. That's watching for education purposes. If that person knew how to do something, they would probably rather be doing it than watching someone else do it on twitch. That could be an indication that the game doesn't sufficiently inform it's players.

You seem to have this problem connecting my statement to the examples you provide, simply because you don't like the underlying tone or format it was given. I don't get why ... I'm not attacking twitch, the streamers on it or even the people that watch it. /shrug. In fact, my statement paints a pretty good picture of players, streamers and GW2 all around ... I guess you have an agenda or something.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:I don't think you have misunderstood me ... I don't 'get it' when people would rather watch than play games, especially if the kinds of people this game attracts have lifestyles that limit their game time (and I believe that is the majority of the people that play this game). The more people would rather watch a game than play it tells me the games are better movies than they are games. I'm not talking about watching to learn or see how to do something in-game either. I'm talking about legit watching someone play a game ... because that's fun to someone, MORE fun than playing the same game.

There
you go. That is what was asked for.

No different than the other five times I said it ... that's OK, I don't have a problem when people need to catch up.

slow sigh Anyway...

So to now properly respond to your viewpoint, its understandable that some people don't understand the desire to watch another play a video game. However I don't think that ultimately turns into a fault of the game, or that there is something wrong with the game when people watch a streamer play it. There are a number of things that affect that, either be it they just like the streamer personality, they like to watch a game played by someone because they
also
play it, or they have questions about the game.

Again, I'm not saying there aren't reasons for people to go watch GW2 on twitch because obviously there are if they do ... I just think that says there is some fundamental issue with the game if a person would prefer doing that over playing it. For instance, someone having questions about the game. That's watching for education purposes. If that person knew how to do something, they would probably rather be doing it than watching someone else do it on twitch. That could be an indication that the game doesn't sufficiently inform it's players.

You seem to have this problem connecting my statement to the examples you provide, simply because you don't like the underlying tone or format it was given. I don't get why ... I'm not attacking twitch, the streamers on it or even the people that watch it. /shrug. In fact, my statement paints a pretty good picture of players, streamers and GW2 all around ... I guess you have an agenda or something.

Information about a game can sometimes require deeper delving and asking questions beyond what the game provides, this isn't a fault in the game as there are tips and tricks that offer more depth to gameplay, and information that is not something a game's tutorial or otherwise offers. Things like META builds, skill rotations, advice on how to fight certain classes in PvP, advice on how to play a game mode more effectively, how to be a more effective teammate, where to get a certain item, good areas to grind for experience or money, etc. There is tons of information in nearly every game that is not something that the game handles providing for you. That isn't a fault in the game, that is just how things work.

GW2 is the same way, you have to go elsewhere to learn skill rotations for raids, you have to go elsewhere to learn about META builds or just a good build, you can ask other players for advice on how to play sPvP more effectively and what you should be doing, you can ask other players for advice or tips and tricks on how to fight another class, you can ask another player where good areas are to go for "grinding" money. Again, tons of information that offers depth to the game and deeper delving that the game itself does not provide on its own.

Again I am not saying that you are saying people don't have a reason to go to Twitch, I'm saying that your interpretation of the why is incorrect. Either you belief this because you don't understand or because you don't want to understand, I don't know. I don't think you're attacking Twitch or streamers, I think you just have a fundamentally wrong idea about some things. People watching a game, on Twitch, "rather" than playing it either because they have questions or whatever doesn't secretly imply this "hidden" problem fundamentally with any particular video game. It just implies maybe they want to watch it...for any of the reasons I have stated before beyond just information or asking questions, and I really hope I don't have to repeat those again.

No. I don't have some agenda. Stop. sigh

"In fact, my statement paints a pretty good picture of players, streamers and GW2 all around"Again, just because you say something doesn't just suddenly make it so, or factual, it just means you said it and I've already repeatedly voiced my disagreement with your viewpoint and provided examples as to why its incorrect. Specifically I am talking about your repeated insistence that a game has "something wrong with it" if people watch it rather than play it.

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@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:I don't think you have misunderstood me ... I don't 'get it' when people would rather watch than play games, especially if the kinds of people this game attracts have lifestyles that limit their game time (and I believe that is the majority of the people that play this game). The more people would rather watch a game than play it tells me the games are better movies than they are games. I'm not talking about watching to learn or see how to do something in-game either. I'm talking about legit watching someone play a game ... because that's fun to someone, MORE fun than playing the same game.

There
you go. That is what was asked for.

No different than the other five times I said it ... that's OK, I don't have a problem when people need to catch up.

slow sigh
Anyway...

So to now properly respond to your viewpoint, its understandable that some people don't understand the desire to watch another play a video game. However I don't think that ultimately turns into a fault of the game, or that there is something wrong with the game when people watch a streamer play it. There are a number of things that affect that, either be it they just like the streamer personality, they like to watch a game played by someone because they
also
play it, or they have questions about the game.

Again, I'm not saying there aren't reasons for people to go watch GW2 on twitch because obviously there are if they do ... I just think that says there is some fundamental issue with the game if a person would prefer doing that over playing it. For instance, someone having questions about the game. That's watching for education purposes. If that person knew how to do something, they would probably rather be doing it than watching someone else do it on twitch. That could be an indication that the game doesn't sufficiently inform it's players.

You seem to have this problem connecting my statement to the examples you provide, simply because you don't like the underlying tone or format it was given. I don't get why ... I'm not attacking twitch, the streamers on it or even the people that watch it. /shrug. In fact, my statement paints a pretty good picture of players, streamers and GW2 all around ... I guess you have an agenda or something.

Information about a game can sometimes require deeper delving and asking questions beyond what the game provides, this isn't a fault in the game as there are tips and tricks that offer more depth to gameplay, and information that is not something a game's tutorial or otherwise offers. Things like META builds, skill rotations, advice on how to fight certain classes in PvP, advice on how to play a game mode more effectively, how to be a more effective teammate, where to get a certain item, good areas to grind for experience or money, etc. There is
tons
of information in nearly every game that is not something that the game handles providing for you. That isn't a fault in the game, that is just how things work.

No debate there ... like I said ... that example is not about someone choosing to watch someone play twitch over playing it themselves ... it's for learning; they are watching because they HAVE to in order to do something in the game ... and IMO, that IS about something deficient about the game. That's not what I'm talking about here. If given the option, I'm pretty sure that people would rather play the game than learn about how to play it from twitch.

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@jbrother.1340 said:

@"TwoGhosts.6790" said:Why do people even stream? It's such a peculiar mentality to me.Someone used the word narcissistic earlier. That's quite pejorative, but it does seem to describe streaming behaviour pretty well.

i don´t know, is a
  • book author
  • radio host
  • professor
  • musician
  • forum poster
  • .....................also automaticly a narcisist for sharing his work/mind/activities/...?

This makes me feel that mmo players are going the way of the dinosaurs. I notice mmo players are usually the first to call out mobile games as not being real games either so, it's not surprising that streaming isnt in their repitore as well.

You know what would be really healthy for probably most people...

Stop needing to call others out for your opinions. Stop calling them out as though somehow "you" possess some hidden knowledge that is subtle and quaint. Who cares if something that is clearly creative and imaginary (yes it exists in the sense that it is physically able to be interacted with but spawned from imagination) doesn't do it for you? I hate the taste of liver. I have cooked liver and onions thousands of times in my life and eaten it many as well. I still hate the taste but have been complimented on my preparation of it by others who love it often. My personal taste is not relevant in any way.

With a game or twitch or anything that you or another might consider creative or entertaining who are we to argue with that taste. I never understood twitch and for quite some time wondered why people did that and why anyone would even want to broadcast themselves in that way. It is pretty raw entertainment. No filter really no time delay and things can go badly wrong and if the camera is still rolling you are going to get super exposed to the world real fast considering it is being recorded or clipped by someone. Then I went to twitch one day and saw for myself.

It is madness. It isn't just games. I watched a person build a bird feeder the other day. there were only about 100 people watching but we chatted and he did as well with us and questioned certain things he was doing with tools and technique in his wood shop. He answered and gave information and joked around. It was a nice little bird feeder. It isn't just a bunch of twelve year old squeakers. I watch games and chat and watch cooking shows and other stuff live. For me that is the reason I actually really like it now that I just went and saw for myself. I love live entertainment. I have far less chance to see live performance for me actually in the flesh than I would like so it fits a role for me. I go to concerts, plays, opera, ballet and all kinds of other stuff whenever I can but I am not rich and that stuff can cost. Twitch and other platforms like it serve a very desired purpose and now I have digressed.

The reason more people will watch wow is several factors. One being that things change fast at the top on twitch. New and shiny often rockets to the top for a bit and then drops into a place below that and hovers around or crashes and disappears so far down you forget about it. WOW as classic launches is going to have a huge presence for a short time. It will not last long and will drop in place in the first three rows on the twitch browser after a month or so, maybe less. GW2 has never had much presence and in the end that is a viscous circle that causes a game to flounder. You need something that draws at least a couple mid-size or large streamers to a degree to survive. That causes ads to get played people get paid and then the circle is broken. It isn't easy in the sea of online games to achieve this and most games simply cannot for long. There is a reason the top games are always on top. Small streams and streamers are often more fun than large ones.

GW2 is never really going to have a place on twitch based on the current existence and culture of twitch.

Sort of digressed hard from the person I quoted not sure what happened. What can you do???

The playerbase is clearly stuck in 2012 and as someone who has played games on a very high level for 30 years and usually always plays the most recent trends, including cell phone games, mmos since 2001, including ultima online and ff11 when it was really hard. Was also in the 7th top guild in wow during burning crusade, even play simple games like terraria, stardew valley, hard games like all dark souls titles, hollow knight and has 100% all of the above mentioned games at well as probably 1000 others, back when all there was, was consoles. I also streamed on twitch and have been watching livestreams since 2011.

So Yes, I do feel as though I posses hidden knowledge in seeing the psychology of the people who play this specific game compared to most people.

Oh and I also played the guild wars franchise Since gw1 launch and have gwamm, and also played gw2 since launchAlso have multiple pvp legend titles so I'd say I have a pretty good handle on this game as well as the demeanor of those who play it...

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I'm somewhat worried about the whole twitch youtube, twitch presence of the game, it kinda feels almost non existent. This might not seem like a problem for many people, but if the game does not get online presence it is considered dead for new or old players that could have tried the game in current day. We know that the retention rate decreases over time and if something is not done properly(the marketing for GW2 is archaic) the game population will dwindle.With less content creators it is hard to promote the game by word of mouth so Anet should probably try to invest in that part of the community, an ingame promotion in the pvp tab or the gem store tab would help a little. I really find hard to believe they don't want to compete on the market. Their main competitor ESO( yes ESO not WoW, FF or what ever shiny mmo comes out), which has similar world design and monetization has better online presence even though the gameplay of GW2 is miles ahead. They just market their game better.If you scroll on twitch you will notice ESO sitting on the first page with 4 to 5 k views, while GW2 is down at the bottom.If you are searching for a new game which one would you pick?

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:I don't think you have misunderstood me ... I don't 'get it' when people would rather watch than play games, especially if the kinds of people this game attracts have lifestyles that limit their game time (and I believe that is the majority of the people that play this game). The more people would rather watch a game than play it tells me the games are better movies than they are games. I'm not talking about watching to learn or see how to do something in-game either. I'm talking about legit watching someone play a game ... because that's fun to someone, MORE fun than playing the same game.

There
you go. That is what was asked for.

No different than the other five times I said it ... that's OK, I don't have a problem when people need to catch up.

slow sigh
Anyway...

So to now properly respond to your viewpoint, its understandable that some people don't understand the desire to watch another play a video game. However I don't think that ultimately turns into a fault of the game, or that there is something wrong with the game when people watch a streamer play it. There are a number of things that affect that, either be it they just like the streamer personality, they like to watch a game played by someone because they
also
play it, or they have questions about the game.

Again, I'm not saying there aren't reasons for people to go watch GW2 on twitch because obviously there are if they do ... I just think that says there is some fundamental issue with the game if a person would prefer doing that over playing it. For instance, someone having questions about the game. That's watching for education purposes. If that person knew how to do something, they would probably rather be doing it than watching someone else do it on twitch. That could be an indication that the game doesn't sufficiently inform it's players.

You seem to have this problem connecting my statement to the examples you provide, simply because you don't like the underlying tone or format it was given. I don't get why ... I'm not attacking twitch, the streamers on it or even the people that watch it. /shrug. In fact, my statement paints a pretty good picture of players, streamers and GW2 all around ... I guess you have an agenda or something.

Information about a game can sometimes require deeper delving and asking questions beyond what the game provides, this isn't a fault in the game as there are tips and tricks that offer more depth to gameplay, and information that is not something a game's tutorial or otherwise offers. Things like META builds, skill rotations, advice on how to fight certain classes in PvP, advice on how to play a game mode more effectively, how to be a more effective teammate, where to get a certain item, good areas to grind for experience or money, etc. There is
tons
of information in nearly every game that is not something that the game handles providing for you. That isn't a fault in the game, that is just how things work.

No debate there ... like I said ... that example is not about someone choosing to watch someone play twitch over playing it themselves ... it's for learning; they are watching because they HAVE to in order to do something in the game ... and IMO, that IS about something deficient about the game. That's not what I'm talking about here. If given the option, I'm pretty sure that people would rather play the game than learn about how to play it from twitch.

Right that one example based around that one reason to watch a stream. Information is not the only reason someone watches a stream, you can't ignore those others just in favor of the one. When you ignore the other reasons, as per your example, yes...your point of view makes sense. However that is not the case. People don't watch MightyTeapot to learn about the game, some might pop in and ask a question from time to time and he will answer, but otherwise they are watching for him more than likely, and for the content of his stream and him playing through Raids or other content. What keeps them around, though, is likely him as a twitch personality.

Going to back track a few posts here.

Again, I'm not saying there aren't reasons for people to go watch GW2 on twitch because obviously there are if they do ... I just think that says there is some fundamental issue with the game if a person would prefer doing that over playing it. For instance, someone having questions about the game. That's watching for education purposes. If that person knew how to do something, they would probably rather be doing it than watching someone else do it on twitch. That could be an indication that the game doesn't sufficiently inform it's players.

I don't disagree with this sentiment, I don't, however I'm saying that it simply isn't the case. Say someone comes into a GW2 stream and asks the streamer "Hey, whats a good [insert class] build to use in PvP?" the streamer might load up onto an alt or already be on the right character and they can briefly show them which traits to use and briefly discuss what stats to pick for a specific build, then they might link them to Metabattle to give them a way to possibly find more options if the build they were shown isn't to their liking. Or maybe someone comes into their chat and asks "Where is a good spot to get money?" the streamer might indicate that they should try rotating meta events on several maps or suggest going to Istan.

All of that information is not something really any game informs their players on, its community established "meta" or otherwise and that happens with practically every game I can even think of at this point. GW2, WoW, BDO, FFXIV, ESO, Borderlands series, Monster Hunter World, Dark Souls, League of Legends, Planetside 2, Battlefield, Warframe, XCOM, The Witcher series, and the list goes on...

You said in a previous post;"I don't 'get it' when people would rather watch than play games, ...the more people would rather watch a game than play it tells me the games are better movies than they are games. I'm not talking about watching to learn or see how to do something in-game either. I'm talking about legit watching someone play a game ... because that's fun to someone, MORE fun than playing the same game."

And I at least tried to elaborate on the why, but I don't know if it wasn't sufficient enough for you or you just wanted to ignore it. Either way I don't know how else to convey much more about this topic to you that hasn't already been said, or what wouldn't comprise of me just quoting my own past posts in response to your new ones.

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@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:I don't think you have misunderstood me ... I don't 'get it' when people would rather watch than play games, especially if the kinds of people this game attracts have lifestyles that limit their game time (and I believe that is the majority of the people that play this game). The more people would rather watch a game than play it tells me the games are better movies than they are games. I'm not talking about watching to learn or see how to do something in-game either. I'm talking about legit watching someone play a game ... because that's fun to someone, MORE fun than playing the same game.

There
you go. That is what was asked for.

No different than the other five times I said it ... that's OK, I don't have a problem when people need to catch up.

slow sigh
Anyway...

So to now properly respond to your viewpoint, its understandable that some people don't understand the desire to watch another play a video game. However I don't think that ultimately turns into a fault of the game, or that there is something wrong with the game when people watch a streamer play it. There are a number of things that affect that, either be it they just like the streamer personality, they like to watch a game played by someone because they
also
play it, or they have questions about the game.

Again, I'm not saying there aren't reasons for people to go watch GW2 on twitch because obviously there are if they do ... I just think that says there is some fundamental issue with the game if a person would prefer doing that over playing it. For instance, someone having questions about the game. That's watching for education purposes. If that person knew how to do something, they would probably rather be doing it than watching someone else do it on twitch. That could be an indication that the game doesn't sufficiently inform it's players.

You seem to have this problem connecting my statement to the examples you provide, simply because you don't like the underlying tone or format it was given. I don't get why ... I'm not attacking twitch, the streamers on it or even the people that watch it. /shrug. In fact, my statement paints a pretty good picture of players, streamers and GW2 all around ... I guess you have an agenda or something.

Information about a game can sometimes require deeper delving and asking questions beyond what the game provides, this isn't a fault in the game as there are tips and tricks that offer more depth to gameplay, and information that is not something a game's tutorial or otherwise offers. Things like META builds, skill rotations, advice on how to fight certain classes in PvP, advice on how to play a game mode more effectively, how to be a more effective teammate, where to get a certain item, good areas to grind for experience or money, etc. There is
tons
of information in nearly every game that is not something that the game handles providing for you. That isn't a fault in the game, that is just how things work.

No debate there ... like I said ... that example is not about someone choosing to watch someone play twitch over playing it themselves ... it's for learning; they are watching because they HAVE to in order to do something in the game ... and IMO, that IS about something deficient about the game. That's not what I'm talking about here. If given the option, I'm pretty sure that people would rather play the game than learn about how to play it from twitch.

Right that
one
example based around that
one
reason to watch a stream. Information is not the
only
reason someone watches a stream, you can't ignore those others just in favor of the one.

To be fair, you haven't taken effort to look at what I said and see how it applies to ANY example; you just immediately dismissed it as nonsense because you didn't put any thinking into the idea. The fact I so easy addressed just one makes me think I didn't just 'get lucky' with that random choice either.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:I don't think you have misunderstood me ... I don't 'get it' when people would rather watch than play games, especially if the kinds of people this game attracts have lifestyles that limit their game time (and I believe that is the majority of the people that play this game). The more people would rather watch a game than play it tells me the games are better movies than they are games. I'm not talking about watching to learn or see how to do something in-game either. I'm talking about legit watching someone play a game ... because that's fun to someone, MORE fun than playing the same game.

There
you go. That is what was asked for.

No different than the other five times I said it ... that's OK, I don't have a problem when people need to catch up.

slow sigh
Anyway...

So to now properly respond to your viewpoint, its understandable that some people don't understand the desire to watch another play a video game. However I don't think that ultimately turns into a fault of the game, or that there is something wrong with the game when people watch a streamer play it. There are a number of things that affect that, either be it they just like the streamer personality, they like to watch a game played by someone because they
also
play it, or they have questions about the game.

Again, I'm not saying there aren't reasons for people to go watch GW2 on twitch because obviously there are if they do ... I just think that says there is some fundamental issue with the game if a person would prefer doing that over playing it. For instance, someone having questions about the game. That's watching for education purposes. If that person knew how to do something, they would probably rather be doing it than watching someone else do it on twitch. That could be an indication that the game doesn't sufficiently inform it's players.

You seem to have this problem connecting my statement to the examples you provide, simply because you don't like the underlying tone or format it was given. I don't get why ... I'm not attacking twitch, the streamers on it or even the people that watch it. /shrug. In fact, my statement paints a pretty good picture of players, streamers and GW2 all around ... I guess you have an agenda or something.

Information about a game can sometimes require deeper delving and asking questions beyond what the game provides, this isn't a fault in the game as there are tips and tricks that offer more depth to gameplay, and information that is not something a game's tutorial or otherwise offers. Things like META builds, skill rotations, advice on how to fight certain classes in PvP, advice on how to play a game mode more effectively, how to be a more effective teammate, where to get a certain item, good areas to grind for experience or money, etc. There is
tons
of information in nearly every game that is not something that the game handles providing for you. That isn't a fault in the game, that is just how things work.

No debate there ... like I said ... that example is not about someone choosing to watch someone play twitch over playing it themselves ... it's for learning; they are watching because they HAVE to in order to do something in the game ... and IMO, that IS about something deficient about the game. That's not what I'm talking about here. If given the option, I'm pretty sure that people would rather play the game than learn about how to play it from twitch.

Right that
one
example based around that
one
reason to watch a stream. Information is not the
only
reason someone watches a stream, you can't ignore those others just in favor of the one.

To be fair, you haven't taken effort to look at what I said and see how it applies to
ANY
example; you just immediately dismissed it as nonsense because you didn't put any thinking into the idea. The fact I so easy addressed just one makes me think I didn't just 'get lucky' with that random choice either.

How does what you said apply to any of the other examples?

Watching for entertainment. (Streamer personality, content of the game, interaction, community)They enjoy the streamer and his content. The game is enjoyable to watch, similar to how someone might enjoy watching a sport being played. How does this apply as a fault in the game?

Watching for information.They are looking to ask about more in depth details about a game, that which the game doesn't provide. Things like meta builds or tips and tricks or advice on something pertaining to the game. How does this apply as a fault in the game?

If you would apply it differently to these then feel free to do so as a response, I'm curious as to what that will entail.

You also didn't "easily" address anything, you just addressed one thing, and I didn't immediately dismiss it as nonsense I have repeatedly tried to elaborate on how it "doesn't make sense" in the context of everything else. You pinpointed one thing, watching a stream for information, and have run with that consistently as implying there is a fault in the game(s) themselves when it has been repeatedly established that it is not the only reason streams are viewed by hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of people. If that were the only reason, sure I would agree with you and your point of view...but that isn't the only reason.

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OP, I'll answer your question with a question: Who even gives a you-know-what about Twitch!

Twitch is just inane nonsense and nothing but a distracting marketing hype machine for games. See, the last thing I want to hear when I watch a game stream is someone talking over it. It ruins immersion. I hate this entire Twitch culture that pretends it's more important for games than it actually is.

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@Crab Fear.1624 said:

Old folks spend much money on video games for themselves?

Figured they would be spending it on kids, and grandkids.

I wonder how many of those are interested in or know about GW2?

Old folks spend a lot of money on stuff they enjoy. Not all of them are into model railroads, LEGO UCS or RC planes.

I am 40+. Is that 'old folks' already? I spend A LOT of money on the games I enjoy.

I know plenty of peopl who are a) older then me and b) spend a huge chunk of their income on hardware and games.

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@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:

Old folks spend much money on video games for themselves?

Figured they would be spending it on kids, and grandkids.

I wonder how many of those are interested in or know about GW2?

Old folks spend a lot of money on stuff they enjoy. Not all of them are into model railroads, LEGO UCS or RC planes.

I am 40+. Is that 'old folks' already? I spend A LOT of money on the games I enjoy.

I know plenty of peopl who are a) older then me and b) spend a huge chunk of their income on hardware and games.

That's ok. It's good to invest into your hobbies. But, your (age) group is not what keeps this game or any other going.

We can push it to x up to 35 and about 65% of the income comes from there.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/189582/age-of-us-video-game-players-since-2010/

It is statistics for 2019 despite the URL.

Edit: That might be a lie if those age groups are being funded by yours....haha.

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@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:I don't think you have misunderstood me ... I don't 'get it' when people would rather watch than play games, especially if the kinds of people this game attracts have lifestyles that limit their game time (and I believe that is the majority of the people that play this game). The more people would rather watch a game than play it tells me the games are better movies than they are games. I'm not talking about watching to learn or see how to do something in-game either. I'm talking about legit watching someone play a game ... because that's fun to someone, MORE fun than playing the same game.

There
you go. That is what was asked for.

No different than the other five times I said it ... that's OK, I don't have a problem when people need to catch up.

slow sigh
Anyway...

So to now properly respond to your viewpoint, its understandable that some people don't understand the desire to watch another play a video game. However I don't think that ultimately turns into a fault of the game, or that there is something wrong with the game when people watch a streamer play it. There are a number of things that affect that, either be it they just like the streamer personality, they like to watch a game played by someone because they
also
play it, or they have questions about the game.

Again, I'm not saying there aren't reasons for people to go watch GW2 on twitch because obviously there are if they do ... I just think that says there is some fundamental issue with the game if a person would prefer doing that over playing it. For instance, someone having questions about the game. That's watching for education purposes. If that person knew how to do something, they would probably rather be doing it than watching someone else do it on twitch. That could be an indication that the game doesn't sufficiently inform it's players.

You seem to have this problem connecting my statement to the examples you provide, simply because you don't like the underlying tone or format it was given. I don't get why ... I'm not attacking twitch, the streamers on it or even the people that watch it. /shrug. In fact, my statement paints a pretty good picture of players, streamers and GW2 all around ... I guess you have an agenda or something.

Information about a game can sometimes require deeper delving and asking questions beyond what the game provides, this isn't a fault in the game as there are tips and tricks that offer more depth to gameplay, and information that is not something a game's tutorial or otherwise offers. Things like META builds, skill rotations, advice on how to fight certain classes in PvP, advice on how to play a game mode more effectively, how to be a more effective teammate, where to get a certain item, good areas to grind for experience or money, etc. There is
tons
of information in nearly every game that is not something that the game handles providing for you. That isn't a fault in the game, that is just how things work.

No debate there ... like I said ... that example is not about someone choosing to watch someone play twitch over playing it themselves ... it's for learning; they are watching because they HAVE to in order to do something in the game ... and IMO, that IS about something deficient about the game. That's not what I'm talking about here. If given the option, I'm pretty sure that people would rather play the game than learn about how to play it from twitch.

Right that
one
example based around that
one
reason to watch a stream. Information is not the
only
reason someone watches a stream, you can't ignore those others just in favor of the one.

To be fair, you haven't taken effort to look at what I said and see how it applies to
ANY
example; you just immediately dismissed it as nonsense because you didn't put any thinking into the idea. The fact I so easy addressed just one makes me think I didn't just 'get lucky' with that random choice either.

How does what you said apply to any of the other examples?

I guess you won't know unless you think about it. You didn't think it applied to someone watching to learn how to do something ingame either ... but it does.

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@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

Old folks spend much money on video games for themselves?

Figured they would be spending it on kids, and grandkids.

I wonder how many of those are interested in or know about GW2?

Old folks spend a lot of money on stuff they enjoy. Not all of them are into model railroads, LEGO UCS or RC planes.

I am 40+. Is that 'old folks' already? I spend A LOT of money on the games I enjoy.

I know plenty of peopl who are a) older then me and b) spend a huge chunk of their income on hardware and games.

That's ok. It's good to invest into your hobbies. But, your (age) group is not what keeps this game or any other going.

We can push it to x up to 35 and about 65% of the income comes from there.

It is statistics for 2019 despite the URL.

Edit: That might be a lie if those age groups are being funded by yours....haha.

Show us the same stats for GW2, then you might have something.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:I don't think you have misunderstood me ... I don't 'get it' when people would rather watch than play games, especially if the kinds of people this game attracts have lifestyles that limit their game time (and I believe that is the majority of the people that play this game). The more people would rather watch a game than play it tells me the games are better movies than they are games. I'm not talking about watching to learn or see how to do something in-game either. I'm talking about legit watching someone play a game ... because that's fun to someone, MORE fun than playing the same game.

There
you go. That is what was asked for.

No different than the other five times I said it ... that's OK, I don't have a problem when people need to catch up.

slow sigh
Anyway...

So to now properly respond to your viewpoint, its understandable that some people don't understand the desire to watch another play a video game. However I don't think that ultimately turns into a fault of the game, or that there is something wrong with the game when people watch a streamer play it. There are a number of things that affect that, either be it they just like the streamer personality, they like to watch a game played by someone because they
also
play it, or they have questions about the game.

Again, I'm not saying there aren't reasons for people to go watch GW2 on twitch because obviously there are if they do ... I just think that says there is some fundamental issue with the game if a person would prefer doing that over playing it. For instance, someone having questions about the game. That's watching for education purposes. If that person knew how to do something, they would probably rather be doing it than watching someone else do it on twitch. That could be an indication that the game doesn't sufficiently inform it's players.

You seem to have this problem connecting my statement to the examples you provide, simply because you don't like the underlying tone or format it was given. I don't get why ... I'm not attacking twitch, the streamers on it or even the people that watch it. /shrug. In fact, my statement paints a pretty good picture of players, streamers and GW2 all around ... I guess you have an agenda or something.

Information about a game can sometimes require deeper delving and asking questions beyond what the game provides, this isn't a fault in the game as there are tips and tricks that offer more depth to gameplay, and information that is not something a game's tutorial or otherwise offers. Things like META builds, skill rotations, advice on how to fight certain classes in PvP, advice on how to play a game mode more effectively, how to be a more effective teammate, where to get a certain item, good areas to grind for experience or money, etc. There is
tons
of information in nearly every game that is not something that the game handles providing for you. That isn't a fault in the game, that is just how things work.

No debate there ... like I said ... that example is not about someone choosing to watch someone play twitch over playing it themselves ... it's for learning; they are watching because they HAVE to in order to do something in the game ... and IMO, that IS about something deficient about the game. That's not what I'm talking about here. If given the option, I'm pretty sure that people would rather play the game than learn about how to play it from twitch.

Right that
one
example based around that
one
reason to watch a stream. Information is not the
only
reason someone watches a stream, you can't ignore those others just in favor of the one.

To be fair, you haven't taken effort to look at what I said and see how it applies to
ANY
example; you just immediately dismissed it as nonsense because you didn't put any thinking into the idea. The fact I so easy addressed just one makes me think I didn't just 'get lucky' with that random choice either.

How does what you said apply to any of the other examples?

I guess you won't know unless you think about it. You didn't think it applied to someone watching to learn how to do something ingame either ... but it does.

sigh So rather than give your own perspective on it, and actually elaborate further on your own point of view, you are just electing to avoid the whole thing entirely? That's great, that's a helpful discussion of opposing points of view. Just having the other person, who is asking for you to elaborate and who is wanting to see your side, to just "do it themselves" isn't really how this all works. Thats not how discussions of opposing opinions really work.

Listen, I think something has really been misunderstood here.

I have no personal problems with you, lets get that cleared up, yet apparently I have invoked in you the desire to condescend to me because I oppose your point of view and your opinion. I have no interest in insulting you, attacking you or whatever other negative intention is assumed through these posts. All I'm asking is that you support your point of view with something beyond "I think it therefore it is so and its your fault for not understanding" because that is all I'm seeing.

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You're the one that disagreed with me and provided a terse explanation of 'because it's nonsense' .... Now you want me to lead you through why I think you are wrong?

Sorry, no. You tell ME why what I said doesn't apply, especially since in some random choice of example you've given, I show it does. I'm condescending to you? Fine ... don't talk to me. Problem SOLVED. I've supported ny point ... it's way back in one of those posts I made where I was trying to explain the same thing to you 3 different ways. It's a game, not a movie. It's intended to be played because it doesn't make the developer money if people don't play it ... if given the option, people treat it like a movie and not a game, that's a problem and assuming that that people who play games LIKE playing them (which isn't a stretch of the imagination) ... it's an issue with the game.

The example of watching to learn doesn't disprove that, because it's an example where someone DOESN'T get to choose. They HAVE to learn from somewhere to play. They don't watch by choice, they watch by necessity. The fact this simple distinction eluded your analysis of my statement makes me think you aren't very serious about trying to understand what I'm saying.

Don't get me wrong .. this isn't personal. I just think that people are pretty quick to dismiss without thought about what they are dismissing or even what they are reading because they want to play the foil. I'm not just saying things that I think will get people pissed off; my statement is actually complimentary to the game since it doesn't have a massive twitch presence or viewers. I'm not really sure what the problem is here, other than some offense that's being taken to the idea that games are intended to be played, not watched being played if possible.

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@Obtena.7952 said:You're the one that disagreed with me ... yet you didn't put any thinking behind doing so. Now you want me to lead you through why I think you are wrong? I tire of this academic joust.

Sorry, no. You disagree with me .. you tell ME why what I said doesn't apply, especially since in some random choice of example you've given, I show it does.

I literally have done that, through several posts, through this whole thread. That is the the entire thing I have been doing and you've been ignoring it the whole time. Yes I disagreed with you, I even stated the why and I showed you reasons and information to support that point of view. You've ignored all of it. Yes I disagree with you, I just said that in the post before.

But here, I'll bite.

  1. You've said that if someone is going to watch a stream for information only that they should just play the game. That if that is why someone is watching a stream then it is something wrong with the game in how it presents information to the players.

    • I pointed out that while that can be true, the information that the viewers look for is not something that any game, including GW2, regulates or provides itself. Information on meta builds, information on PvP tactics, tips and tricks to complete content, advice on how to build their character, advice on how to better perform in a PvP match or other kind of content, etc. This is all community born information, something that the developer of said game in no way "enforces" or provides direct links to information on.
  2. You said you don't "get" why people would watch a stream out of enjoyment rather than play the game for it. That, to you, if people watch a game "rather than" play it then it is better more as a movie than it is as a game.

    • I pointed out that there are a number of reasons why they watch for enjoyment. They either watch for the streamers personality, for the interaction with said streamer or the interactions the streamer has with the game or friends while they play the game. Or potentially because the content of the game can be interesting to watch. Also often times, especially in the case of MMORPGs or other online games, viewers can join in and play the game alongside the streamer, all while probably watching as well.

Other than these...I don't know what else you'd want me to elaborate on as I have done this a few times now in this exact thread...which I'm sure you ignored those.

Also, lets remember here, that you're the one who instigated this whole thing with this:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:My guess is because there isn't a lot worth watching in the game. It's one of those better playing than watching.

I mean...is it though?

Just going to put this out there ... there is something FUNDAMENTALLY wrong with a game when someone chooses to watch another play it than play it themselves.

And relevant to the OP ... it's likely related to the kind of person that GW2 appeals to in the first place. Without a better description, 'casual' players don't tend to have hours to sit around and watch videos about games they want to play, EVEN if they liked watching them.

Which lead into this...

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:My guess is because there isn't a lot worth watching in the game. It's one of those better playing than watching.

I mean...is it though?

Just going to put this out there ... there is something FUNDAMENTALLY wrong with a game when someone chooses to watch another play it than play it themselves.

And relevant to the OP ... it's likely related to the kind of person that GW2 appeals to in the first place. Without a better description, 'casual' players don't tend to have hours to sit around and watch videos about games they want to play, EVEN if they liked watching them.

That doesn't even
sound
accurate much less look it.

Often times people will watch a streamer play a game to decide if it looks interesting to them, then go and buy it then play it. Also to play it
with
said streamer for either community driven events or otherwise. Also there is the added element of people watching for the streamer's personality. Do you think WoW, LoL, Apex, Fortnite, Minecraft, Teamfight Tactics, GTAV, or really any of the top viewed games on Twitch are any less fun to actually play than they are to watch a streamer play? Of course they have an interest in the game, or a growing interest, which is why they even watch at all. Of course the streamer personality plays a role there, but I highly doubt the vast majority of their viewers don't also play the game and enjoy it quite a lot.

Maybe
you
, or many here, don't find WoW fun, or they don't find LoL fun...but that is all entirely subjective and you don't have to agree with it (I don't, I
hate
LoL and all MOBAs) but that doesn't mean everyone shares your sentiments or your perspective. It feels rather flimsy to equate watching a game "over playing it" to simply imply that the game has something "wrong" with it.

Keep in mind, the same goes for GW2 and I do not dispute that but whether age is a factor, or timing, or popularity is subjective and perspective and context is important to consider. You can't just write it off as "GW2 is just more fun to play" or "Clearly these other games have something wrong with them", that is horribly unrealistic thinking.

You like the game, thats fine, I like the game, but I'm not going to delude myself because I don't agree with the fact that other people like other games.

From the very beginning I've been trying to explain to you why what you said was inaccurate or incorrect. You just ignored it all and here we are...

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