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Won't power reaper be efficient in organized groups


Crystal Paladin.3871

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People often make this comment when they talk about reaper in organized group content fractals,raids

They say other classes outperform reaper coz boon uptimes favor other classes more when compared to reaper

But... The trait "awaken the pain" gives extra 1000 power for 25 stacks of might with some condi dmg too... And include this with extra 600 ferocity in shroud form. Afaik, no other class gets this much ferocity and extra power and to top it off... Reaper cleave radius is hugeAnd gravedigger doesn't have a cooldown when the boss reaches 50% hp (combine this with soul Barbs while exiting shroud) and gravedigger becomes a relentless nuke

But still ppl consider it less efficient in organized groups...

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It's true that Reaper is very self efficient and holds its own really well, but it has a lower dps ceiling than other classes. Usually if you're playing a selfish class, you're expected to do top tier dps and while Reaper's dps has improved greatly over the years and is good, there are better options for speed clearing.

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People only look at the damage potential of the different profession and count on the support to provide all boons. Unfortunately, despite all those advantage you listed the reaper is still pretty close to be bottom of the barrel in term of damage potential.

Reaper sure have it's pros but those are not advantages that the average simple minded player will take into consideration willingly. Those players only seek to be able to do the maximum damage possible in the shortest amount of time because that's the best way to disregard bothersome bosses mechanisms in this game. The encounter design only really reward maximum dps, this is a flaw in itself but it tend to satisfy the point of view of the raiding crew.

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Afaik, reaper (and scourge) are great for pugs. It's easier to reach Reapers top DPS then it is on other classes...and reapers dps is enough. Yes, it's not a speed clesr class, but it's a safer class to play and I do think teams should be more accepting of it. (Well, they are in fractals, I don't know about raids).

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@Taygus.4571 said:Afaik, reaper (and scourge) are great for pugs. It's easier to reach Reapers top DPS then it is on other classes...and reapers dps is enough. Yes, it's not a speed clesr class, but it's a safer class to play and I do think teams should be more accepting of it. (Well, they are in fractals, I don't know about raids).

May I ask how you compared the easiness of reaching top-dps between all classes, have you played all other classes in raids and T4 fractals or is it just from hearsay? Cause I have played all of them in raids and T4, and I know words like easy, hard, etc. are subjective terms, but in my experience none in general is really that much easier or harder than the other.Because in the end it's all about knowing your encounters: Imo, ANet actually did quite a good job leaving a lot of RNG out of their PvE endgame. So once you're experienced enough in those encounters, you'll figure out that any class is easy enough to get near to its own top-DPS (not the golem benchmarks of course, but what's considered average top-dps per raid/fractal). And once you get to that point, I'm afraid it all boils down to what every class is capped to, and the Necro has for some kind of reason - which I still really don't understand - always (pretty much since launch) been at the bottom of the barrel, with all other classes having at least several different DPS builds (Power AND Condi) available outperforming the Power Reaper's DPS ceiling .... and mostly even bringing more support/utility to the squad/party as well (banners, blocks, stances, etc.), next to their significantly higher (up to 20%) DPS af course.

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@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:And once you get to that point, I'm afraid it all boils down to what every class is capped to, and the Necro has for some kind of reason - which I still really don't understand - always (pretty much since launch) been at the bottom of the barrel, with all other classes having at least several different DPS builds (Power AND Condi) available outperforming the Power Reaper's DPS ceiling .... and mostly even bringing more support/utility to the squad/party as well (banners, blocks, stances, etc.), next to their significantly higher (up to 20%) DPS af course.Shroud is the excuse the devs use since 6-7 years. Every time. It's like they don't play the class and only have a vague idea of it.And WvW (and maybe PvP) performances are hindering PvE too. (See Scourge in 2017 for a recent example)Some ignorants even accused us of willing to be the meta profession above the other, when all most necro want is to be on par with the other professions or at least bring something useful to a party.

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See the issue is people worry too much about benchmarks. I play reaper regularly in both my static and in pugs. Yeah i'm not hitting 30k dps most of the time. Usually around 20-23k, but how often do you ever see people hitting 30k target dps? almost never. You're talking something that literally only the top 1% of players do.

It may be bottom of the barrel for those players, but for the vast majority of people that is not their experience with it. The notion that they are bad dps is just nonsense at this point.

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Furthermore this " but they are selfish dps" is also nonsense. So is literally every other dps class. DH brings no party buffs and hardly any utility unless it's for niche use. theives only basi venom, power holo nothing, power chrono nothing, weaver nothing. Neither power or condi SLB use spotter so again nothing. The only one that brings much of anything is maybe condi renegade( kallas fervor and soulcleave) and quickbrand in some encounters( is actually OP and will most likely get tuned down in the future)

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@"Crystal Paladin.3871" said:People often make this comment when they talk about reaper in organized group content fractals,raids

They say other classes outperform reaper coz boon uptimes favor other classes more when compared to reaper

But... The trait "awaken the pain" gives extra 1000 power for 25 stacks of might with some condi dmg too... And include this with extra 600 ferocity in shroud form. Afaik, no other class gets this much ferocity and extra power and to top it off... Reaper cleave radius is hugeAnd gravedigger doesn't have a cooldown when the boss reaches 50% hp (combine this with soul Barbs while exiting shroud) and gravedigger becomes a relentless nuke

But still ppl consider it less efficient in organized groups...

That trait only gives 250 extra power. Gravedigger spam is also lower dps than reaper shroud which is good, otherwise the rotation would be pretty boring.The problem in organized fractals is that weaver brings way more dps and can stack fury. You need to force the fb to run axe or sword but the group will lack might then. Forcing the warr to go ps will also lower group dps.Reaper is ok in fractals if you do them casually with a healer that stacks fury and might on its own otherwise you'll notice necros lack of boon support. Boon corrupt is helpful vs no pain no gain so the ren doesnt have to run mallyx but you really need fury and might.

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@"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

May I ask how you compared the easiness of reaching top-dps between all classes, have you played all other classes in raids and T4 fractals or is it just from hearsay? Cause I have played all of them in raids and T4, and I know words like easy, hard, etc. are subjective terms, but in my experience none in general is really that much easier or harder than the other.Because in the end it's all about knowing your encounters: Imo, ANet actually did quite a good job leaving a lot of RNG out of their PvE endgame. So once you're experienced enough in those encounters, you'll figure out that any class is easy enough to get near to its own top-DPS (not the golem benchmarks of course, but what's considered average top-dps per raid/fractal). And once you get to that point, I'm afraid it all boils down to what every class is capped to, and the Necro has for some kind of reason - which I still really don't understand - always (pretty much since launch) been at the bottom of the barrel, with all other classes having at least several different DPS builds (Power AND Condi) available outperforming the Power Reaper's DPS ceiling .... and mostly even bringing more support/utility to the squad/party as well (banners, blocks, stances, etc.), next to their significantly higher (up to 20%) DPS af course.

I've played all classes except ranger in t4, as well as spent many, many hours benchmarking on a test golem. Multiple builds for each profession, too. The conclusion I came to is pretty similar: Power Reaper DPS is one of the easier peak rotations. The reasons for this are simple:

(1): Low resource management. You have life force and weapon swap. This is less than any other profession in the game.(2): Low punishment for mistakes. There's nothing that is super clutch, requiring split second timing. The auto attack is solid, too.(3): Skill simplicity. There's only a small number of skills you need to keep track of, and most of them keep track of themselves.(4): All the DPS is focused into Shroud 4, making it easy to "burst" with.(5): There's plenty of self-buffing on the reaper, filling boon caps that would be on other professions.

The difficulty of a profession's rotation is much less subjective than what you're implying. You can boil the difficulty to the rotations down into how many resources you need to keep track of, how many skills you need to keep track of, whether the order of those skills is simple or complex, how fast you need to press each button, how strict the timing is on each skill, how punishing it is to mess up, and the ease of use of each of these techniques. Almost all of these factors are objective, and the hardest rotations in the game (engineer, mesmer, renegade) have them in the worst degree.

There's only a few things that count against power reaper. First, taking damage in shroud reduces DPS, making it less consistent. This isn't that much of a tradeoff, considering that other professions straight up go down if they take too much damage. Second, pets aren't always cooperative, and they can die. The minions, however, do very little damage on their own, so this isn't much of a loss if something goes wrong. Third, all of the DPS skills are melee, so if there is any sort of forced disengagement, falling back on axe for damage is not ideal. Unless you're YOLO pugging t4 fractals, this generally won't happen. All in all, this makes the power reaper one of the safest and easiest classes to use in high end PVE, even if the ceiling is low.

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@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

@"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

May I ask how you compared the easiness of reaching top-dps between all classes, have you played all other classes in raids and T4 fractals or is it just from hearsay? Cause I have played all of them in raids and T4, and I know words like easy, hard, etc. are subjective terms, but in my experience none in
general
is really that much easier or harder than the other.Because in the end it's all about knowing your encounters: Imo, ANet actually did quite a good job leaving a lot of RNG out of their PvE endgame. So once you're experienced enough in those encounters, you'll figure out that any class is easy enough to get near to its own top-DPS (not the golem benchmarks of course, but what's considered average top-dps per raid/fractal). And once you get to that point, I'm afraid it all boils down to what every class is capped to, and the Necro has for some kind of reason - which I still really don't understand - always (pretty much since launch) been at the bottom of the barrel, with all
other
classes having at least several different DPS builds (Power AND Condi) available outperforming the Power Reaper's DPS ceiling .... and mostly even bringing more support/utility to the squad/party as well (banners, blocks, stances, etc.), next to their significantly higher (up to 20%) DPS af course.

I've played all classes except ranger in t4, as well as spent many, many hours benchmarking on a test golem. Multiple builds for each profession, too. The conclusion I came to is pretty similar: Power Reaper DPS is one of the easier peak rotations. The reasons for this are simple:

(1): Low resource management. You have life force and weapon swap. This is less than any other profession in the game.(2): Low punishment for mistakes. There's nothing that is super clutch, requiring split second timing. The auto attack is solid, too.(3): Skill simplicity. There's only a small number of skills you need to keep track of, and most of them keep track of themselves.(4): All the DPS is focused into Shroud 4, making it easy to "burst" with.(5): There's plenty of self-buffing on the reaper, filling boon caps that would be on other professions.

The difficulty of a profession's rotation is much less subjective than what you're implying. You can boil the difficulty to the rotations down into how many resources you need to keep track of, how many skills you need to keep track of, whether the order of those skills is simple or complex, how fast you need to press each button, how strict the timing is on each skill, how punishing it is to mess up, and the ease of use of each of these techniques. Almost all of these factors are objective, and the hardest rotations in the game (engineer, mesmer, renegade) have them in the worst degree.

There's only a few things that count against power reaper. First, taking damage in shroud reduces DPS, making it less consistent. This isn't that much of a tradeoff, considering that other professions straight up go down if they take too much damage. Second, pets aren't always cooperative, and they can die. The minions, however, do very little damage on their own, so this isn't much of a loss if something goes wrong. Third, all of the DPS skills are melee, so if there is any sort of forced disengagement, falling back on axe for damage is not ideal. Unless you're YOLO pugging t4 fractals, this generally won't happen. All in all, this makes the power reaper one of the safest and easiest classes to use in high end PVE, even if the ceiling is low.

Fractals with pugs is a whole different story.But people here want necro to be on par with other classes in organised groups!Mostly in raids.

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@"Nimon.7840" said:

Fractals with pugs is a whole different story.But people here want necro to be on par with other classes in organised groups!Mostly in raids.

I wouldn't mind some clarity in this myself. On the engineer forum, I remarked that with the recent holosmith buffs that Necromancers are meant to be the lowest DPS class, since as soon as any other class (except power rev) gets lower than them, they immediately get buffs. Technically, this makes necromancers a unit of measurement, since they're supposed to be the lowest of all other classes.

Biggest problem here is that Anet is colliding against the social hurdle to raiding. If we just went with objective requirements you could complete most raids with snowflake builds, assuming the player was competent. 28k peak DPS is more than enough to beat everything in the game with flying colors. Anything more is vanity. However, the community doesn't see it like that. The end-game is full of wannabe speed runners.

This puts Anet into a catch-22 like scenario. See, they still balance DPS around non-DPS factors. Stuff like effective health, ease of use, boons, attack range, etc. In a certain way, they're right to do so if you consider the individual player experience in a box. If you were to make it so scourges and reapers did 39k DPS tomorrow, Anet would be flooded with complaints from Thieves and Elementalists. "It's not fair that they do so much damage while having so much health!" they'll say. "I don't get rewarded for playing a frail profession that's harder to play! There's no reason to take an Elementalist over a Necromancer!" It doesn't matter if these buffs are PVE only. Anet will still get complaints. Keep in mind, the amount of players actually concerned with maintaining maximum DPS that won't switch classes to get it is very small.

I can understand their desire to keep Necromancer low because of this. However, all of this is speculation, since Anet won't say a word on their PVE balance philosophy. To be frank, I suspect they don't actually have one, given what recently happened with the engineer. So, it is easier to give each profession enough DPS, and let the players sort out their interpersonal problems personally.

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@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

@"Nimon.7840" said:

Fractals with pugs is a whole different story.But people here want necro to be on par with other classes in organised groups!Mostly in raids.

I wouldn't mind some clarity in this myself. On the engineer forum, I remarked that with the recent holosmith buffs that Necromancers are meant to be the lowest DPS class, since as soon as any other class (except power rev) gets lower than them, they immediately get buffs. Technically, this makes necromancers a unit of measurement, since they're supposed to be the lowest of all other classes.

Biggest problem here is that Anet is colliding against the social hurdle to raiding. If we just went with objective requirements you could complete most raids with snowflake builds, assuming the player was competent. 28k peak DPS is more than enough to beat everything in the game with flying colors. Anything more is vanity. However, the community doesn't see it like that. The end-game is full of wannabe speed runners.

Well. Faster kill= less mechanics to do = less likelier to fail the encounter

This puts Anet into a catch-22 like scenario. See, they still balance DPS around non-DPS factors. Stuff like effective health, ease of use, boons, attack range, etc. In a certain way, they're right to do so if you consider the individual player experience in a box. If you were to make it so scourges and reapers did 39k DPS tomorrow, Anet would be flooded with complaints from Thieves and Elementalists. "It's not fair that they do so much damage while having so much health!" they'll say. "I don't get rewarded for playing a frail profession that's harder to play! There's no reason to take an Elementalist over a Necromancer!" It doesn't matter if these buffs are PVE only. Anet will still get complaints. Keep in mind, the amount of players actually concerned with maintaining maximum DPS that won't switch classes to get it is very small.

Which would mean, that that doesn't count for warrior?Has high health as wellDoes slightly more dps with two support skills equipped while boosting everyone's dmg with them?Or does a lot more dps on a DPS role?

Sure give a class more dmg if it's much harder to play than another. Playing the piano vs spamming 1,1,1,1... Should definitely be able to do more dmg

I really couldn't understand a point of someone, who said, that even though, his class already did more dmg than necro, either necro needs to be nerfed, or his class buffed, because his class has less health and is less tankier.And I told him: just switch out one trait, or one skill, and take one, that makes you tankier, and will still let you do more dps than necro.He was like:" but then we can't compare, because then it's not Glasscanon Vs Glasscanon."

I can understand their desire to keep Necromancer low because of this. However, all of this is speculation, since Anet won't say a word on their PVE balance philosophy. To be frank, I suspect they don't actually have one, given what recently happened with the engineer. So, it is easier to give each profession enough DPS, and let the players sort out their interpersonal problems personally.

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@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

@"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

May I ask how you compared the easiness of reaching top-dps between all classes, have you played all other classes in raids and T4 fractals or is it just from hearsay? Cause I have played all of them in raids and T4, and I know words like easy, hard, etc. are subjective terms, but in my experience none in
general
is really that much easier or harder than the other.Because in the end it's all about knowing your encounters: Imo, ANet actually did quite a good job leaving a lot of RNG out of their PvE endgame. So once you're experienced enough in those encounters, you'll figure out that any class is easy enough to get near to its own top-DPS (not the golem benchmarks of course, but what's considered average top-dps per raid/fractal). And once you get to that point, I'm afraid it all boils down to what every class is capped to, and the Necro has for some kind of reason - which I still really don't understand - always (pretty much since launch) been at the bottom of the barrel, with all
other
classes having at least several different DPS builds (Power AND Condi) available outperforming the Power Reaper's DPS ceiling .... and mostly even bringing more support/utility to the squad/party as well (banners, blocks, stances, etc.), next to their significantly higher (up to 20%) DPS af course.

I've played all classes except ranger in t4, as well as spent many, many hours benchmarking on a test golem.

Hmm, that explains it, probably more golem hours than T4/raids hours, right? Don't get me wrong, you have to start somewhere, and Golem is a good start, but after a while, you'll have enough experience with rotations, they're all somewhat similar to each other at least for me they are: word of advice: think of your most important skills (in every build, doesn't matter which class), and at least make sure that that they won't be interrupted and will be cast on recharge. Imo, that way it's much easier to adapt to the encounters, instead of knowing exactly which buttons you need to press in which order. Cause you then also know which skills to drop when you or your team makes a mistake. I actually found the most difficult multiple kits engineer/holo rotations really easy that way, and I was ALWAYS top dps in raids!Anyway, let me go through your quite distorted view of the Necro (Reaper) with the reasons you listed, which clearly is from hearsay (or playing it casually only) instead of real experience ... love to debunk them once again:

(1): Low resource management. You have life force and weapon swap. This is less than any other profession in the game.At least they have a (dynamic) resource management system: there are many classes out there, that simply doesn't have it: just (static) recharges, or even easier (read: less prone to dynamic influences) resource systems, like thief's or warrior's. Which by your logic means that the Reaper is one of most difficult classes to play. And then about the weapon swap, I don't really know what you mean with that, but the Reaper virtually has 3 weapon sets, whereas there are multiple classes out there that just have 2 of which some just require camping in 1 (Daredevil, Deadeye, Power Berserker)!

(2): Low punishment for mistakes. There's nothing that is super clutch, requiring split second timing. The auto attack is solid, too.And this is actually a 180, really: you couldn't be more wrong: the punishment might be even the most severe one: missing a shroud, or using it to soak up damage, or even worse: popping it in the middle of a knock down (I've seen them, I've really seen them!) plummets your dps to almost support chrono levels, definitely when you have to stay in Axe afterwards as well. You more useless than a downed player that way!About your second part: I don't know how you go in Shroud, but you need to learn how to cancel aftercasts, definitely for Reaper, otherwise your DPS will be even lower (and it's already the lowest of the pack)!And lastly: the auto attack is solid??? Maybe for shroud. But Greatsword requires Quickness ... from other sources, otherwise it's one of the slowest hitting weapons in the game (so not THAT solid). Well, and that leaves Axe ... I think there might be no weapon for any class out there that has worse auto-attack than the Axe for the Necro ...

(3): Skill simplicity. There's only a small number of skills you need to keep track of, and most of them keep track of themselves.True, but may I point you in the direction of: Berserker (power is even only one weapon set!!!), Dragonhunter, Thief (Daredevil AND Deadeye), Soulbeast, Mirage, etc.

(4): All the DPS is focused into Shroud 4, making it easy to "burst" with.But this is also its major flaw: see point 2.

(5): There's plenty of self-buffing on the reaper, filling boon caps that would be on other professions.Except it misses THE most important boons in the game: Alacrity, Fury (which for the Necro is even more important because of the Ferocity bonus from Grandmaster trait: Death Perception) and (100%) Quickness. Only Might is not a problem, but the Reaper is hardly the only class out there that has that privilege!

The difficulty of a profession's rotation is much less subjective than what you're implying. You can boil the difficulty to the rotations down into how many resources you need to keep track of, how many skills you need to keep track of, whether the order of those skills is simple or complex, how fast you need to press each button, how strict the timing is on each skill, how punishing it is to mess up, and the ease of use of each of these techniques. Almost all of these factors are objective, and the hardest rotations in the game (engineer, mesmer, renegade) have them in the worst degree.You forget one of the worst ones, being the Ele, nut hey, I'll let that one slip. And btw, mesmer these days (not even the Chrono) isnt that hard according to your logic. But all this in the end is just a trick, like I said, after you know
how
to do all general rotations, and you know the mechanics of the encounters, it's all a trick, just that. It's not like we're playing dark souls here or where the endgame is all about being lucky and a lot of randomness happens. And I'm actually quite happy that's the case in this game, but that also means that the PvE endgame is completely DPS oriented (dps builds are ALL berserker/assassin or viper stats), leaving no room for optional defences, because you simply don't need them. And like I said before, then it all boils down to what every build is capped at: and Necro is in a really poor spot, and always has been in that regard. And imo, they just don't deserve that. Let any other class take that spot from now on (and for all I care, let it rotate every 3 months or something), not the Necro please!

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@Nimon.7840 said:

Well. Faster kill= less mechanics to do = less likelier to fail the encounter

Not really. The mechanics are set at fixed health intervals for most bosses, and at the rates we're discussing are about 10%-30% per person. This isn't including durability or ease of use, or other factors. If you look at snowcrow's list of recommendations for each boss, for everything other than Chrono + Druid there is a wide swath of green and red squares for each build on every profession. So overall, it is a little more complicated than just more DPS = Easier.

@Nimon.7840 said:Which would mean, that that doesn't count for warrior?Has high health as wellDoes slightly more dps with two support skills equipped while boosting everyone's dmg with them?Or does a lot more dps on a DPS role?

It counts for warrior. Nothing I said would say otherwise. The weaknesses of the warrior are the incredibly weak ranged game, poor condi cleanse, and general lack of utility. The warrior's skills are so plain that their power builds just run axe/axe with signets. That's how unimpactful they are. The warrior is given good damage for their bulk because they don't have any other options. The necromancer, by comparison, has a third weapon swap and a second health bar, alongside of more conditions and better condition management. That's quite a lot of options in comparison.

You can talk about raid effectiveness, but that's not what Anet is balancing around.

@Nimon.7840 said:Sure give a class more dmg if it's much harder to play than another. Playing the piano vs spamming 1,1,1,1... Should definitely be able to do more dmg

I really couldn't understand a point of someone, who said, that even though, his class already did more dmg than necro, either necro needs to be nerfed, or his class buffed, because his class has less health and is less tankier.And I told him: just switch out one trait, or one skill, and take one, that makes you tankier, and will still let you do more dps than necro.He was like:" but then we can't compare, because then it's not Glasscanon Vs Glasscanon."

Yeah, I'm not sure who you're talking about or what is going on in this anecdote you have here.

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@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:Anyway, let me go through your quite distorted view of the Necro (Reaper) with the reasons you listed, which clearly is from hearsay (or playing it casually only) instead of real experience ... love to debunk them once again:

I stopped there. You're arguing the case for relativity and indeterminance, I.E. YOUR truth vs. THE truth. Because you're arguing a negative, the only thing you need to do to win is be as stubborn as an ox. You're twisting my words, calling me a liar right to my face, and expect me to be convinced by this? That's not how a discussion works, buddy. Special knowledge does not trump logic, reason, authority, or the general experience of the population at large. So quit wasting my time.

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just don't play necro/scourge/reaperno matter what you spec there is a class that can and will do it betterdamage? HA what a joke, necros are not supposed to be allowed to do damagehealing? Druids do it better in every wayboon sharing? yeah no, just nothe only thing we are allowed to be is boon corrupt bots AND NOTHING ELSE, that is how anet sees necros

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@Xxnecroxx.4039 said:just don't play necro/scourge/reaperno matter what you spec there is a class that can and will do it betterdamage? HA what a joke, necros are not supposed to be allowed to do damagehealing? Druids do it better in every wayboon sharing? yeah no, just nothe only thing we are allowed to be is boon corrupt bots AND NOTHING ELSE, that is how anet sees necros

Maybe you're just a bad necro player? No necro doesn't have top tier dps, but it does well enough to be acceptable across all content if you know how to play it. No necro doesn't have access to a lot of direct healing, but support scourge is highly respectable as an off healer in raids and accepted as main healer in fractals. Boons? Ye you're right, necro has the worst boon sharing with the possible exception of might from scourge and regen from staff 2, which is fine because it doesn't have to be the best at everything. You seem to be confusing the fact that just because this class can't do it all at top tier level, then it is by proxy a horrible class....which is a very shallow and myopic view to take. Yes sure there are classes out there that can do it all; chrono is a great dpser, boon sharer and not a horrible healer with traited wells....but that does not by extension mean that just because a class can't do it all as well then it is garbage.

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@Nimon.7840 said:

Fractals with pugs is a whole different story.But people here want necro to be on par with other classes in organised groups!Mostly in raids.

I wouldn't mind some clarity in this myself. On the engineer forum, I remarked that with the recent holosmith buffs that Necromancers are meant to be the lowest DPS class, since as soon as any other class (except power rev) gets lower than them, they immediately get buffs. Technically, this makes necromancers a unit of measurement, since they're supposed to be the lowest of all other classes.

Biggest problem here is that Anet is colliding against the social hurdle to raiding. If we just went with objective requirements you could complete most raids with snowflake builds, assuming the player was competent. 28k peak DPS is more than enough to beat everything in the game with flying colors. Anything more is vanity. However, the community doesn't see it like that. The end-game is full of wannabe speed runners.

Well. Faster kill= less mechanics to do = less likelier to fail the encounter

This puts Anet into a catch-22 like scenario. See, they still balance DPS around non-DPS factors. Stuff like effective health, ease of use, boons, attack range, etc. In a certain way, they're right to do so if you consider the individual player experience in a box. If you were to make it so scourges and reapers did 39k DPS tomorrow, Anet would be flooded with complaints from Thieves and Elementalists. "It's not fair that they do so much damage while having so much health!" they'll say. "I don't get rewarded for playing a frail profession that's harder to play! There's no reason to take an Elementalist over a Necromancer!" It doesn't matter if these buffs are PVE only. Anet will still get complaints. Keep in mind, the amount of players actually concerned with maintaining maximum DPS that won't switch classes to get it is very small.

Which would mean, that that doesn't count for warrior?Has high health as wellDoes slightly more dps with two support skills equipped while boosting everyone's dmg with them?Or does a lot more dps on a DPS role?

Don't bother arguing Nimon, this person is in a complete different world than the rest of us are: he lives in his own truth bubble and won't get out of that. I mean, if he comes up with the Warrior's weak ranged game: while its strongest DPS build (the condi berserker currently benching 36k) has a big 1200 range longbow rotation part ....

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@Xxnecroxx.4039 said:just don't play necro/scourge/reaperno matter what you spec there is a class that can and will do it betterdamage? HA what a joke, necros are not supposed to be allowed to do damagehealing? Druids do it better in every wayboon sharing? yeah no, just nothe only thing we are allowed to be is boon corrupt bots AND NOTHING ELSE, that is how anet sees necros

Do you post anything but salt because condi reaper got nerfed and isn't a thing? You quit the game long ago.

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@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

Fractals with pugs is a whole different story.But people here want necro to be on par with other classes in organised groups!Mostly in raids.

I wouldn't mind some clarity in this myself. On the engineer forum, I remarked that with the recent holosmith buffs that Necromancers are meant to be the lowest DPS class, since as soon as any other class (except power rev) gets lower than them, they immediately get buffs. Technically, this makes necromancers a unit of measurement, since they're supposed to be the lowest of all other classes.

Biggest problem here is that Anet is colliding against the social hurdle to raiding. If we just went with objective requirements you could complete most raids with snowflake builds, assuming the player was competent. 28k peak DPS is more than enough to beat everything in the game with flying colors. Anything more is vanity. However, the community doesn't see it like that. The end-game is full of wannabe speed runners.

Well. Faster kill= less mechanics to do = less likelier to fail the encounter

This puts Anet into a catch-22 like scenario. See, they still balance DPS around non-DPS factors. Stuff like effective health, ease of use, boons, attack range, etc. In a certain way, they're right to do so if you consider the individual player experience in a box. If you were to make it so scourges and reapers did 39k DPS tomorrow, Anet would be flooded with complaints from Thieves and Elementalists. "It's not fair that they do so much damage while having so much health!" they'll say. "I don't get rewarded for playing a frail profession that's harder to play! There's no reason to take an Elementalist over a Necromancer!" It doesn't matter if these buffs are PVE only. Anet will still get complaints. Keep in mind, the amount of players actually concerned with maintaining maximum DPS that won't switch classes to get it is very small.

Which would mean, that that doesn't count for warrior?Has high health as wellDoes slightly more dps with two support skills equipped while boosting everyone's dmg with them?Or does a lot more dps on a DPS role?

Don't bother arguing Nimon, this person is in a complete different world than the rest of us are: he lives in his own truth bubble and won't get out of that. I mean, if he comes up with the Warrior's weak ranged game: while its strongest DPS build (the condi berserker currently benching 36k) has a big 1200 range longbow rotation part ....

We're not arguing. We're talking. See, when Nimon and I exchange ideas, we actually get somewhere. He doesn't just scream idiotic things under a veiled agenda.

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@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

@"Nimon.7840" said:

Fractals with pugs is a whole different story.But people here want necro to be on par with other classes in organised groups!Mostly in raids.

I wouldn't mind some clarity in this myself. On the engineer forum, I remarked that with the recent holosmith buffs that Necromancers are meant to be the lowest DPS class, since as soon as any other class (except power rev) gets lower than them, they immediately get buffs. Technically, this makes necromancers a unit of measurement, since they're supposed to be the lowest of all other classes.

Biggest problem here is that Anet is colliding against the social hurdle to raiding. If we just went with objective requirements you could complete most raids with snowflake builds, assuming the player was competent. 28k peak DPS is more than enough to beat everything in the game with flying colors. Anything more is vanity. However, the community doesn't see it like that. The end-game is full of wannabe speed runners.

This puts Anet into a catch-22 like scenario. See, they still balance DPS around non-DPS factors. Stuff like effective health, ease of use, boons, attack range, etc. In a certain way, they're right to do so if you consider the individual player experience in a box. If you were to make it so scourges and reapers did 39k DPS tomorrow, Anet would be flooded with complaints from Thieves and Elementalists. "It's not fair that they do so much damage while having so much health!" they'll say. "I don't get rewarded for playing a frail profession that's harder to play! There's no reason to take an Elementalist over a Necromancer!" It doesn't matter if these buffs are PVE only. Anet will still get complaints. Keep in mind, the amount of players actually concerned with maintaining maximum DPS that won't switch classes to get it is very small.

I can understand their desire to keep Necromancer low because of this. However, all of this is speculation, since Anet won't say a word on their PVE balance philosophy. To be frank, I suspect they don't actually have one, given what recently happened with the engineer. So, it is easier to give each profession
enough
DPS, and let the players sort out their interpersonal problems personally.

I think this post is key to understand why some classes are balanced this way in PvE.

There HAS to be a lowest and highest damage class. However class balance is not pure damage, this poster breaks it down a bit but I generally just categorize them into defense and utility. Power reaper for example has one of the best passive defense in PvE. It has strong utility with very good CC, remember utility is not just boons. CC is an incredibly important aspect of raiding since many different fights has it in spades. Hell when my group did Qadim 2.0 CM, I was the solo breaker for the spawning adds.

So with the two categories being high, the damage has to be lower. The closest comparison to power reaper at this moment is power holo, they have decent defense and very strong CC. So their damage is on the lower range but still higher than reaper because their defense is weaker.

The real discussion is not that "omg anet hates necros I'm gonna kms". The real discussion is how big the damage gap should be and how important the other factors such as defense, utility and difficulty to play should be. For example right now Power reaper benches around 31.5k. The highest is around 39k as condi weaver. The current gap is a bit too big although that's more condi weaver benching too high. So ideally where do you want it to be? If is up me, probably around 32k-35kish. Where the lowest should be necros and highest for eles and thieves. The difference between the lowest and highest dps by about 10%. Of course burst damage starts to muddle things a bit as well due to phasing and mechanic skipping but that's another can of worms.

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@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

Fractals with pugs is a whole different story.But people here want necro to be on par with other classes in organised groups!Mostly in raids.

I wouldn't mind some clarity in this myself. On the engineer forum, I remarked that with the recent holosmith buffs that Necromancers are meant to be the lowest DPS class, since as soon as any other class (except power rev) gets lower than them, they immediately get buffs. Technically, this makes necromancers a unit of measurement, since they're supposed to be the lowest of all other classes.

Biggest problem here is that Anet is colliding against the social hurdle to raiding. If we just went with objective requirements you could complete most raids with snowflake builds, assuming the player was competent. 28k peak DPS is more than enough to beat everything in the game with flying colors. Anything more is vanity. However, the community doesn't see it like that. The end-game is full of wannabe speed runners.

Well. Faster kill= less mechanics to do = less likelier to fail the encounter

This puts Anet into a catch-22 like scenario. See, they still balance DPS around non-DPS factors. Stuff like effective health, ease of use, boons, attack range, etc. In a certain way, they're right to do so if you consider the individual player experience in a box. If you were to make it so scourges and reapers did 39k DPS tomorrow, Anet would be flooded with complaints from Thieves and Elementalists. "It's not fair that they do so much damage while having so much health!" they'll say. "I don't get rewarded for playing a frail profession that's harder to play! There's no reason to take an Elementalist over a Necromancer!" It doesn't matter if these buffs are PVE only. Anet will still get complaints. Keep in mind, the amount of players actually concerned with maintaining maximum DPS that won't switch classes to get it is very small.

Which would mean, that that doesn't count for warrior?Has high health as wellDoes slightly more dps with two support skills equipped while boosting everyone's dmg with them?Or does a lot more dps on a DPS role?

Don't bother arguing Nimon, this person is in a complete different world than the rest of us are: he lives in his own truth bubble and won't get out of that. I mean, if he comes up with the Warrior's weak ranged game: while its strongest DPS build (the condi berserker currently benching 36k) has a big 1200 range longbow rotation part ....

Wait. Where did I say, that warrior has weak ranged game or that warrior is weak? I was saying the opposite. Lul

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@Warscythes.9307 said:

@"Nimon.7840" said:

Fractals with pugs is a whole different story.But people here want necro to be on par with other classes in organised groups!Mostly in raids.

I wouldn't mind some clarity in this myself. On the engineer forum, I remarked that with the recent holosmith buffs that Necromancers are meant to be the lowest DPS class, since as soon as any other class (except power rev) gets lower than them, they immediately get buffs. Technically, this makes necromancers a unit of measurement, since they're supposed to be the lowest of all other classes.

Biggest problem here is that Anet is colliding against the social hurdle to raiding. If we just went with objective requirements you could complete most raids with snowflake builds, assuming the player was competent. 28k peak DPS is more than enough to beat everything in the game with flying colors. Anything more is vanity. However, the community doesn't see it like that. The end-game is full of wannabe speed runners.

This puts Anet into a catch-22 like scenario. See, they still balance DPS around non-DPS factors. Stuff like effective health, ease of use, boons, attack range, etc. In a certain way, they're right to do so if you consider the individual player experience in a box. If you were to make it so scourges and reapers did 39k DPS tomorrow, Anet would be flooded with complaints from Thieves and Elementalists. "It's not fair that they do so much damage while having so much health!" they'll say. "I don't get rewarded for playing a frail profession that's harder to play! There's no reason to take an Elementalist over a Necromancer!" It doesn't matter if these buffs are PVE only. Anet will still get complaints. Keep in mind, the amount of players actually concerned with maintaining maximum DPS that won't switch classes to get it is very small.

I can understand their desire to keep Necromancer low because of this. However, all of this is speculation, since Anet won't say a word on their PVE balance philosophy. To be frank, I suspect they don't actually have one, given what recently happened with the engineer. So, it is easier to give each profession
enough
DPS, and let the players sort out their interpersonal problems personally.

I think this post is key to understand why some classes are balanced this way in PvE.

There HAS to be a lowest and highest damage class. However class balance is not pure damage, this poster breaks it down a bit but I generally just categorize them into defense and utility. Power reaper for example has one of the best passive defense in PvE. It has strong utility with very good CC, remember utility is not just boons. CC is an incredibly important aspect of raiding since many different fights has it in spades. Hell when my group did Qadim 2.0 CM, I was the solo breaker for the spawning adds.

So with the two categories being high, the damage has to be lower. The closest comparison to power reaper at this moment is power holo, they have decent defense and very strong CC. So their damage is on the lower range but still higher than reaper because their defense is weaker.

The real discussion is not that "omg anet hates necros I'm gonna kms". The real discussion is how big the damage gap should be and how important the other factors such as defense, utility and difficulty to play should be. For example right now Power reaper benches around 31.5k. The highest is around 39k as condi weaver. The current gap is a bit too big although that's more condi weaver benching too high. So ideally where do you want it to be? If is up me, probably around 32k-35kish. Where the lowest should be necros and highest for eles and thieves. The difference between the lowest and highest dps by about 10%. Of course burst damage starts to muddle things a bit as well due to phasing and mechanic skipping but that's another can of worms.

I'd happily allow every class to be 16k health baseline if the damage of each profession was closer together (difficulty and how much support it gives taken into account). On that note I just looked at condi weaver rotation and I'm not surprised it can do so much. It's condi engi levels of rotation there.

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