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why players crying about new squad invisible tag now? vets asked for feature long time ago


Ice Owl.6325

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title.

longer time players want this feature for many years but all casual cry about not even bother look at map 90% of time can judge where guild might be look for OJs and go there? look map what capped think ok our team may to be here... how hard to ask in chat any groups... play proper alongside guild group if they not already tell these pugs to go then it okay. squad crutch back in day player are using to party LFG.... just doing this. it is simple form 5 man party. i really to think newer player want all easy mode for them. cannot think outside of box.

it from memory good for invisible group. it similar havoc, small man team. it often guild group want break off of main tag. can understanding? these player want hone skill together without pug interrupt. how to improve guild fight tactic skill if pug attract and to die one push rallybot all time? these same pug cry about blob... if guild group were to tag then how would to guess - whole map are on guild group. what this surely player pug understand multiple groups on map proper tactic not just mindless zerg 1 tag boring blobfest.

why do these player entitle to always want tag visible never think for self?

sorry for my English.

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well pugs and casuals want to know there is a team fighting for them. its a good feeling to see if there is one. as a commander myself, i like it when others tag. i join their squad and i support if i can.

when i see no squad, then i just do my thing. and lead and people join. but if ww tagless, players dont show up because they think we are not raiding or no coms online.

this is still a community game. and if tags hide, gives a feeling of loneliness. unless, you've always been roaming with few and you dont mind.

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@Sovereign.1093 said:well pugs and casuals want to know there is a team fighting for them. its a good feeling to see if there is one. as a commander myself, i like it when others tag. i join their squad and i support if i can.

when i see no squad, then i just do my thing. and lead and people join. but if ww tagless, players dont show up because they think we are not raiding or no coms online.

this is still a community game. and if tags hide, gives a feeling of loneliness. unless, you've always been roaming with few and you dont mind.

It's not like they are removing the option to tag public.

People who want to tag public still will and that includes more than just pickups. I'm sure there are plenty of groups who want their tag to be visible on map for many other reasons (guild-guild coordination and so on). I remember mentioning it in the other thread. The positives of the change is that it promotes overall organisation in the mode. The same as how people who want to tag public still can, people who didn't want to tag public just ran without a tag before. The only difference is that they now get access to squad utility tools that promote organising a bit more.

The main argument I see against hidden tags seem to be the misconception that not being able to hide a tag somehow forces players to tag public and be more inclusive. Not only is that a pretty negative perspective on other players and content but in my experience also plain wrong. People rather not tag than being compelled to and rather play without the tools provided by the tag than being forced to go public against their will. That misconception usually comes with entitlement issues and I believe it can, even in a positive commanding environment, add to the positives of commanding by providing commanders with tools and options as well as reminding players that tags are favours granted by commanders and not something to take for granted.

In the longer term it can hopefully remind Anet of that as well, since alot of piecemeal direction involving WvW has seemingly assumed that there will always be tags and they need numbers to fill out the squads. They've taken tags for granted and not kept an eye on how they are birthed and maintained. Getting players into WvW is not that simple and such an assumption risks harming the mode in different ways.

The big winners with the change are those using the option to go hidden but still be a positive influence, such as being able to covertly organise and still be helpful to someone you perhaps may dislike or don't want to play with or under. There's less need to get into arguments when you can organise yourself without affecting whoever is organising publicly. For example, a bunch of Rangers getting kicked out of a squad can now make their own, with access to more powerful tools than afforded by a simple party without incurring the wrath of being a competing tag. Guilds can funnel players to the pickup tag that needs them by making sure only the true public tag is visible and so on. You can tag either public or private depending on the social environment and adapt around positive and negative influences on the map. If there's value to show your tag you can and if you can avoid problems by hiding it, you can. Having access to the tools also lets you learn how to use them and organize with them for when you are ready to go public. That can promote new tags appearing.

All in all, this is a commander-centric change, a producer perspective rather than just an assumptious consumer perspective and that is a positive in my book. I find the change more player centric, because a player should want to start groups and do organisation because that creates content. The mode shouldn't impose demands, expectations and hurdles on a player who wants to buy and try a tag.

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@"Antycypator.9874" said:I think people wants to know where others are. WvW has some players doing only daily tasks. Commander = group of people doing something, so doing stuff is much easier if you can come and "help" and take tower or count some kills.

Yes, but correct me if I am wrong, but even before invisible commander tag those people who wanted to play without public tags did it anyways. Invisible tag just helps them a bit. In general, I think it won't change anything.

@Sovereign.1093 said:well pugs and casuals want to know there is a team fighting for them. its a good feeling to see if there is one. as a commander myself, i like it when others tag. i join their squad and i support if i can.when i see no squad, then i just do my thing. and lead and people join. but if ww tagless, players dont show up because they think we are not raiding or no coms online.this is still a community game. and if tags hide, gives a feeling of loneliness. unless, you've always been roaming with few and you dont mind.

I agree with these things, although I don't see invisible tag doing any harm. Closed groups have always been closed groups, with or without tag. This community aspect bothers me most in this entire game. For reason or another, the circles here are very small (mostly only your guilds). You don't make easily new friends from random people you meet.

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why players crying about new squad invisible tag now? vets asked for feature long time agoBecause not everyone agreed that it was a good thing for the game long time ago, when vets first started asking for it. People posted negative opinions "long time ago," they just weren't as notable because no-private-squad was the default/status quo.

Personally, I don't think it's ultimately all that important. People who wanted to run privately last year found ways to do so. To me, it's more of a change in perspective rather than a change that will be meaningful to the game mode.

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Personally I look on the map to see where the action might be next, white swords, orange swords, missing sentry, things that just capped, scout reports. But I'm old school wvw vet who knows to look for these things, new players maybe not so much until they spend some time in wvw to pick up the little things.

There's good and bad with this change.

Guilds get their private tag, better chance to run by themselves, especially on emptier maps, they get to use tactics that isn't screwed up by having randoms around like stealth and portal stuff. Less veteran commanders will probably publicly tag now.

There are players that log in to wvw, see no tags, and then log out. This could be a good portion of the pug population, and the pugs are what guilds fight more than half the time. We've already lost a lot of wvw players over the years, there's a lot less commanders around, what happens when you start losing all the casual pugs too? you get less players to fight, you get more bored looking for fights. Sure newbie pug commanders could be coming up too, but a wipe or two under a commander especially a new one that doesn't have a rep yet, people bail on those easily.

Good change for guilds, but was it a good change for wvw overall? time will tell I guess.No guild from this point forward should complain about not finding pug zergs to fight.

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Those that wanted to run closed and without a visible tag were doing so for months. Months and months and months. Invisible tag just makes it easier (now if only they would fix party view in the squads). There are a lot of reasons people run closed. Some of which is to keep from getting flooded by non-essential classes. Some to keep from getting too big. I know that last one won't be believed, but some groups do run closed to try to keep from going over 20 or 30. The solution would be is if there is someone you want to follow, talk to the driver. I know this is a far out idea, but maybe join their guild gasp.

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@radiantbliss.6875 said:Those that wanted to run closed and without a visible tag were doing so for months. Months and months and months. Invisible tag just makes it easier (now if only they would fix party view in the squads). There are a lot of reasons people run closed. Some of which is to keep from getting flooded by non-essential classes. Some to keep from getting too big. I know that last one won't be believed, but some groups do run closed to try to keep from going over 20 or 30. The solution would be is if there is someone you want to follow, talk to the driver. I know this is a far out idea, but maybe join their guild gasp.

The top 3 actual reasons why tags run invisible:

1) they don't want the server knowing they failed to defend an objective2) they don't want the server kowing they failed to take an objective3) generate a perception that they are doing anything useful in wvw when they really aren't.

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YEAH! And best of all it makes bag trading/farming easier for opposing teams arranging fights over voip. Now, unless someone wanders into whatever corner of the map they've agreed to do this in they need never be found out. Not as if there's anything better to do in the game mode anymore, right? First it was the greasy slide into permitting third party programmes now ANet's completely given up and has essentially legitimised win trading. See? Who says WvW doesn't get love and attention from the devs?

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@shiri.4257 said:

@radiantbliss.6875 said:Those that wanted to run closed and without a visible tag were doing so for months. Months and months and months. Invisible tag just makes it easier (now if only they would fix party view in the squads). There are a lot of reasons people run closed. Some of which is to keep from getting flooded by non-essential classes. Some to keep from getting too big. I know that last one won't be believed, but some groups do run closed to try to keep from going over 20 or 30. The solution would be is if there is someone you want to follow, talk to the driver. I know this is a far out idea, but maybe join their guild
gasp
.

The top 3 actual reasons why tags run invisible:

1) they don't want the server knowing they failed to defend an objective2) they don't want the server kowing they failed to take an objective3) generate a perception that they are doing anything useful in wvw when they really aren't.

1 2 3 presuposes they want to ppt. if that premise is wrong, then the conclusion isnt set. =)

we need fight guilds. we need them to keep people off the structure.

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Probably because a majority of the WvW community at this point is casual/PvE players in there for daily quests and grinding for Gift of Battle.

Most of the "Vets" and serious GvG scene that wanted this feature quit GW2 only a few months after HoT landed. PoF did the rest of us in who wouldn't let go at first.

Honestly, this feature mattered a lot more when rallies weren't capped like they are now and where coordination mattered cross-discipline, like blasting waters/good field positioning/not overriding them. With those nuances missing, the feature isn't really that important when "stack scourges to win" and similar mechanisms are a thing.

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The real answer is because the WvW community as a whole contains a large number of vocal whiners that loose their minds over any change, regardless how beneficial it might be.Mounts, gliding, a new BL, even an increase in rewards and a direct path to Ascended armor were all met with derision and "this kills the game mode" posts.

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@Sovereign.1093 said:

@radiantbliss.6875 said:Those that wanted to run closed and without a visible tag were doing so for months. Months and months and months. Invisible tag just makes it easier (now if only they would fix party view in the squads). There are a lot of reasons people run closed. Some of which is to keep from getting flooded by non-essential classes. Some to keep from getting too big. I know that last one won't be believed, but some groups do run closed to try to keep from going over 20 or 30. The solution would be is if there is someone you want to follow, talk to the driver. I know this is a far out idea, but maybe join their guild
gasp
.

The top 3 actual reasons why tags run invisible:

1) they don't want the server knowing they failed to defend an objective2) they don't want the server kowing they failed to take an objective3) generate a perception that they are doing anything useful in wvw when they really aren't.

1 2 3 presuposes they want to ppt. if that premise is wrong, then the conclusion isnt set. =)

we need fight guilds. we need them to keep people off the structure.

If a fight guild dies in a forest and doesn't make a sound. Did it really fight?

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@shiri.4257 said:

@radiantbliss.6875 said:Those that wanted to run closed and without a visible tag were doing so for months. Months and months and months. Invisible tag just makes it easier (now if only they would fix party view in the squads). There are a lot of reasons people run closed. Some of which is to keep from getting flooded by non-essential classes. Some to keep from getting too big. I know that last one won't be believed, but some groups do run closed to try to keep from going over 20 or 30. The solution would be is if there is someone you want to follow, talk to the driver. I know this is a far out idea, but maybe join their guild
gasp
.

The top 3 actual reasons why tags run invisible:

1) they don't want the server knowing they failed to defend an objective2) they don't want the server kowing they failed to take an objective3) generate a perception that they are doing anything useful in wvw when they really aren't.

1 2 3 presuposes they want to ppt. if that premise is wrong, then the conclusion isnt set. =)

we need fight guilds. we need them to keep people off the structure.

If a fight guild dies in a forest and doesn't make a sound. Did it really fight?

Yes, it's a scrim.

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I think invisible tag should be limited to less than 20 people squads.

Nothing good will come if blob commanders start running discord-only invisible. People won't stick on maps (or join discord) after checking there is no commander.

I mean invisible tag is great and all but it also causes problems like not knowing if someone is coming to defend and if another guild is already fighting at battlemarkers. It is not that big of a deal since guilds could already run invisible with the catmander trick but I feel like communication between groups is never a bad thing. Not to mention open tags might start causing queues on maps with guilds, which causes some unnecessary toxicity because lot of people don't understand cause and effect.

Tbf another reasonable fix would have been just removing long-duration stealth this is the biggest issue guilds have with pugs. Visible pugs ruining a jump on someone. Just increasing veil duration by like 1 second and making long-distance stealth impossible would change attitudes a lot.

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@Threather.9354 said:I think invisible tag should be limited to less than 20 people squads.

Nothing good will come if blob commanders start running discord-only invisible. People won't stick on maps (or join discord) after checking there is no commander.

I mean invisible tag is great and all but it also causes problems like not knowing if someone is coming to defend and if another guild is already fighting at battlemarkers. It is not that big of a deal since guilds could already run invisible with the catmander trick but I feel like communication between groups is never a bad thing. Not to mention open tags might start causing queues on maps with guilds, which causes some unnecessary toxicity because lot of people don't understand cause and effect.

Tbf another reasonable fix would have been just removing long-duration stealth this is the biggest issue guilds have with pugs. Visible pugs ruining a jump on someone. Just increasing veil duration by like 1 second and making long-distance stealth impossible would change attitudes a lot.This is kind of self moderated.

For starters if you have a 20 man pug then why wouldnt you want those sweet 3 pips? Its just a blob.

Secondly if you are invisible... How do you get people for a blob?

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@Dawdler.8521 said:

This is kind of self moderated.

For starters if you have a 20 man pug then why wouldnt you want those sweet 3 pips? Its just a blob.

Secondly if you are invisible... How do you get people for a blob?You get guild mates?That are running compatible builds and arn't just rally bot.A pug with a bad build doesn't help, it's a nuisance for organized groups

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imo. if you want a healthy wvw - you've got to have a community. someone to take charge and get things going.

i know my guild even if we're the only ones left in nsp, we'll still have fun since it only requires atleast 3 of us to do our thing. but others may not like that. so - if you want someone to tag public - someone has to step up. the same with scouts etc. got to make it so people stay and talk. i mean this is a glorified chat mechanism.

so talk to ppl. ask them to scout, roam, defend, or join the squad and make it so that it's worth their while. - some give participation, others online friendship, etc.

wvw is community based and the best anet can do is give us a worthy carrot. maybe less tiers too. hehe. @>@

a note on tournaments - these can be done for 1 week pre relinking. so months ahead ppl can group up and stakc their desired server; so they can boom the competition on that 1 week. and then transfer regroup again after. it'll be fun.

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I think the issue lies with:

If people can't be bothered to tag up even though they get 4 pips by now for running a public squad, the game mode has more serious issues than fight guilds running closed tags.

As to why fight guilds run closed tags:

  • rallying is one thing, even if randoms often respect closed tags if there is public tags around (on my server at least)
  • stealth blasts and engages are a primary reason why you want to remain closed. There is no point stealth blasting when you have 2-3 players give away your position
  • blasting in general, nothing like having that last minute clutch light field in your group to f-up a pre-engage blast because some random guardian decided he needs swiftness right now

Those are the main 3.

Now I'm torn on this issue. For one, running closed tags does make the border seem emptier to everyone. Having multiple hidden tags of closed groups makes it harder to distinguish which objective needs help since commanders can't see each other, is another problem. The entire system needs some rework I think. Also the currently buggy squad system really needs addressing asap (not sure if the patch this morning fixed things, haven't checked yet).

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