Please gut Condi Daredevil and Acro Staff Daredevil

[Kageseigi.2150]

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:I think it's more about the balance between conquest attributes. You could adequately say that there are 3 main attributes:

• Mobility
• Damage
• Sustain "Ability to hold a node"

Unfortunately for the Thief (in general, not Daredevil specifically), in a 5v5 Conquest, Mobility is the least of the three above. The Thief's Mobility is used mostly to run away from from the enemy. Additionally, the Thief's Mobility advantage has been gradually diminished over the years (of course, so has its killing power relative to the sustainability of others). This relates to the next point...

This is almost more of a problem with Shortbow than it is Daredevil.

The Shortbow is definitely a terrible problem for the Thief's balance in general. It is assumed that every Thief will take it, because it's all-but required to take in order to maintain the Mobility that gives the Thief any purpose in Conquest. Unfortunately, that means that the Thief will always be balanced around the Shortbow's Mobility.

I've always been a Power/Crit Thief. When I first started, I absolutely despised using the Shortbow. I used Berserker D/P and S/D with Traveler's Runes, and I loved its flexibility and lethality in a fight. Unfortunately, the more I learned to play, and the more the game changed (HoT mainly), I found that my fighting ability wasn't able to keep up with everyone else... so I started using the Shortbow just to give my team a chance at winning.

Trust me, I would much prefer to choose Damage over Mobility. But it seems all of the Thief's weapons are balanced around the assumption of the Thief being Mobile because of the Shortbow.

Personally, if I can't choose Damage over Mobility, I'd prefer (some of) the Shortbow's Mobility to be moved to the Thief itself through an F3 function. At least Thieves would be able to select two "less lethal" combat weapon sets instead of just one while still maintaining the only thing that gives them viability.

But as above, Mobility really does seem to be the lesser of the three (Damage and Sustain). It's the Paper in a game of Rock, Tissue Paper, Scissors. So much so that a team with a Thief is only equal to another team that includes a Thief. If the opposing team brings another profession, the Thief's team is already at a disadvantage. The Thief must rely on the other 4 teammates to impose their will because it cannot impose its own. It's playing its own game within the game.

In other words, the Thief is GW2's equivalent to Quidditch's Seeker. Only, there's no Golden Snitch to give it true purpose.

Personally (though I'm sure many others share this sentiment), I don't like being relegated to +1/Decapper. I'm tired of running away at first sight of the enemy because it's the smart move. I don't care about being in team-fights, but at least let me have decent 1v1 potential. Unfortunately, the Thief is the only profession to have the Initiative System, which gives so much flexibility and freedom, everything else just feels too confined for me to consider switching. So yes, I'm all for the choice of giving up Mobility for Damage. But will Anet give me that choice?

/rant :p

[Stand The Wall.6987]

I think anything that has a dodge/ evade in it with other added effects is bad design. I hope they stop putting this stuff in the game.

[MyPuppy.8970]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:I think anything that has a dodge/ evade in it with other added effects is bad design. I hope they stop putting this stuff in the game.

As long as it isn't spammable and needs to be well timed i'm ok with that. Or if the effect tied to the evade is not threatening. But it becomes problematic if it can be frequent and threatening, or leaves zero counterplay apart from being on the defensive, which also has its limits.

[Crab Fear.1624]

I haven't seen any suggestions.

Just "yeah, they can't do that" or "hmmm, I don't know about that shortbow".

I think Burnfall's delete thief completely shibboleth is starting to rub off on others.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:I haven't seen any suggestions.

Just "yeah, they can't do that" or "hmmm, I don't know about that shortbow".

I think Burnfall's delete thief completely shibboleth is starting to rub off on others.

He has a hate boner for theif/mes

[foste.3098]

You know i was expecting someone to present a power staff build that i hadn't thought of but nope, the issue ppl have is condi staff...

Look staff is not a condition weapon it has 0 condition damage in it and so a staff condi build has to rely on traits and utility skills to actually do any meaningful damage, namely spooder venom. If you can mitigate most of the venom and not stand in mini caltops/choking gas there is no way for the thief to actually kill you.The entirety of any new condi daredevil builds (regardless of weapon sets) is burst based, revolving around spider venom and bewildering ambush, with their condi pressure outside of those being laughable especially on a weapon like staff.

Interesting thing about impairing lotus is that the daggers from it target closest enemies to the thief, so in a chaos of a team fight it is near impossible for the thief to actually focus every dodge on a single person, meaning that his damage from dodging around will be minimal especially if there is a firebrand or a tempest on your team as both of these have good aoe cleanses and more importantly projectile denial which completely negates impairing lotus.All of this to say that in a team fight you can actually ignore the condi thief after he blows his venom as the damage should be minimal.

Condi s/d is more dangerous because of access to immobilize from infiltrators strike which combines well with panic strike, meaning that this variant actually has condi damage from weapon skills. But this build has existed for more than 3 years now, and is only seeing a resurgence because of the new traits in da.Speaking of deadly arts i agree that deadly ambition could get a change as it is too passive but i am against reducing the damage of it, imo it would be better if the trait was made to only proc if the thief strikes the target from behind or the side to add some nuance.

As for power acro staff builds, simply put they are non functional for pvp at the moment. Reason for this is simple; staff has no z axis mobility, its only gap closer costs allot and is really obvious so the damage is easy to avoid, the auto attack is to slow, skill 2 is only useful with swipe. When the best skill of a weapon set is only ever used in a bugged fashion you know something is terribly wrong with that set.In short staff occupies the same space as berserkers torch, a pve weapon used against mobs that don't move much.

I really think this is a case of ppl having no clue how to actually play ~~ the game~~ against builds they don't see often like someone mentioned above.

Also why is this thread in the pvp section and not the thief forum?

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:I haven't seen any suggestions.

Just "yeah, they can't do that" or "hmmm, I don't know about that shortbow".

I think Burnfall's delete thief completely shibboleth is starting to rub off on others.

It's not like a vendetta thing man. The build is strong. I gave good explanation as to why I wasn't going to toss suggestion for conjecture, admitting that I didn't know enough to make a good suggestion, but I knew what was equating to the build being so strong. I certainly didn't toss ignorant remarks because I "lost to this build". I never die to this because I play a Druid that has tons of condi cleanse. A well played Druid is one of the very few builds that can actually deal with it and run it off a node.

Right now I'm actually running Condi DD, have been the past 24 hours. You know what? I have almost 15,000 games played total and most of those are played on Ranger. Thief is amongst the least played classes for me, coming it at like 148 or something like that. I've always sucked on Thief, Gold 1 or 2 material at best. But while running Condi DD however, despite that 148 games total experience on Thief, I began to equal my Druid performance by about the 3rd or 4th game played. By about the 10th game played, I was outperforming my Druid play, easily. I'll be running this build next season for sure. The build is crazy strong.

Furthermore after playing it all day, I can say that the problem is Deadly Arts. The poison spam is too much. I had been experimenting with builds that strayed away from Staff and they're all very powerful because no matter what you do, you're dropping so much poison on top of someone's head, they won't be able to deal with over time. In fact, running JUST Pistol with no offhand, is ridiculously strong due to DA. While wearing Carrion & Adventurer, it's actually so strong that you can pew down even top 25 Firebrands and they cannot cleanse or heal quickly enough to stop the DPS <- This is no exaggeration. And it only costs 2 initiative so you don't bottom out while doing it. I'm actually going to log in and test out some Core builds that deviate away from DD, maybe even try DE with the mix. I actually think that Staff may not even be the nastiest variant of this build structure tbh.

I may post some footage here a bit later to show you what I'm talking about.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:I haven't seen any suggestions.

Just "yeah, they can't do that" or "hmmm, I don't know about that shortbow".

I think Burnfall's delete thief completely shibboleth is starting to rub off on others.

It's not like a vendetta thing man. The build is strong. I gave good explanation as to why I wasn't going to toss suggestion for conjecture, admitting that I didn't know enough to make a good suggestion, but I knew what was equating to the build being so strong. I certainly didn't toss ignorant remarks because I "lost to this build". I never die to this because I play a Druid that has tons of condi cleanse. A well played Druid is one of the very few builds that can actually deal with it and run it off a node.

Right now I'm actually running Condi DD, have been the past 24 hours. You know what? I have almost 15,000 games played total and most of those are played on Ranger. Thief is amongst the least played classes for me, coming it at like 148 or something like that. I've always sucked on Thief, Gold 1 or 2 material at best. But while running Condi DD however, despite that 148 games total experience on Thief, I began to equal my Druid performance by about the 3rd or 4th game played. By about the 10th game played, I was outperforming my Druid play, easily. I'll be running this build next season for sure. The build is crazy strong.

Furthermore after playing it all day, I can say that the problem is Deadly Arts. The poison spam is too much. I had been experimenting with builds that strayed away from Staff and they're all very powerful because no matter what you do, you're dropping so much poison on top of someone's head, they won't be able to deal with over time. In fact, running JUST Pistol with no offhand, is ridiculously strong due to DA. While wearing Carrion & Adventurer, it's actually so strong that you can pew down even top 25 Firebrands and they cannot cleanse or heal quickly enough to stop the DPS <- This is no exaggeration. And it only costs 2 initiative so you don't bottom out while doing it. I'm actually going to log in and test out some Core builds that deviate away from DD, maybe even try DE with the mix. I actually think that Staff may not even be the nastiest variant of this build structure tbh.

I may post some footage here a bit later to show you what I'm talking about.

Lol seriously? I've played thief and ranger for yrs and yrs on the regular and I can assure u slb WS/BM build is far stronger than any thief build aside from s/d build doing his decap +1 thing properly which in itself can carry a game though not fun gameplay. I don't know how anyone who regularly plays ranger can call for any thief nerfs lol. They build ur referencing excludes trickery leaving thief with 12 ini which in itself is enough of a drawback for any build lol.You cant compare any class to druid as a way to show a builds strength cuz druid hus been gutted and neutered by arenet to the point any somewhat viable build would be superior to druid.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@foste.3098 said:Also why is this thread in the pvp section and not the thief forum?

Nerf requests tend to remain in the pvp forum, since they touch every sphere of pvp, while suggestions/buff requests tend to be moved to their specific subforums, from what I've seen.That's just based on loose data and theory, don't hold me to that.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:I may post some footage here a bit later to show you what I'm talking about.

This would be appreciated.

Mock match me in a duel room or something as well, if you're free in the evening around 7-10 PM (EST). I

[shadowpass.4236]

@"foste.3098" said:You know i was expecting someone to present a power staff build that i hadn't thought of but nope, the issue ppl have is condi staff...

I haven't fought against condi staff at all. The build I'm talking about is staff power thief.

I don't want to share the build because it is absolutely stupid to fight and play. However, I'll link a timestamp in Kate's stream where you can see me on the map holding my team's cap while 1v3ing for 2 minutes on marauders amulet lol.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/467366105?t=2h48m40s

Watch till about 2h 50m 30s

My thief is Guild Executioner and you can look at my health (it was full the entire time) over the course of the 1v3. Also, I'm fighting at far so you can see the icons of the Weaver, Mirage, and DH there.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

Proper try hard too lol, spamming jump as well as evading.

[Crab Fear.1624]

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@"foste.3098" said:You know i was expecting someone to present a power staff build that i hadn't thought of but nope, the issue ppl have is condi staff...

I haven't fought against condi staff at all. The build I'm talking about is staff power thief.

I don't want to share the build because it is absolutely stupid to fight and play. However, I'll link a timestamp in Kate's stream where you can see me on the map holding my team's cap while 1v3ing for 2 minutes on marauders amulet lol.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/467366105?t=2h48m40s

Watch till about 2h 50m 30s

My thief is Guild Executioner and you can look at my health (it was full the entire time) over the course of the 1v3. Also, I'm fighting at far so you can see the icons of the Weaver, Mirage, and DH there.

The only changes to the acro staff build norm happened with daredevil changes.

escapists fortitude ( a merged trait, we already had the heal in minor)

swipe, unblockable at the cost of 600 range.

auto attack nerfed damge.

slight buff to staff master. (no longer conditional on endurance, 120p and 120 more with staff)

weakening strikes gains the bonus 7% for weakened foes instead of range 360.

I guess you want EF nerfed. Probably a longer cooldown on the condi cleanse, and a reduction on the heal?

You want staff 3 to be "fixed", no jump on usage?

I'm thinking that besides those two items, your eyes are on acrobatics.

(edit)

Is your build something like this? ( i am doubtful about the rune)

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PagAYVlNw6YbsFGJmqXqNbA-z5IeKZKE6VEUwCoiJgSGA

[foste.3098]

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PagAYVlNw6YbsFGJmaXbNbA-z5IeKZKE6VEkvEogFgJGA

I wager it is something like this. There are some possible changes such as dropping a utility for signet of agility, or retraiting trickery for the standard steal package, but i am 100% certain that he will take these traits in acro and daredevil (he may also use rune of the adventurer for maximum endurance generation).

Whatever the case this build has existed since HoT launch and was nerfed multiple times, just look at how many traits and skills have the ''this skill is different per game mode'' tag.The case remains that staff is clunky and predictable, reason it was good 4 years ago was because it dealt massive damage which was then nerfed.As Crab Fear said, the only change to staff builds from 4 years ago to now is that daradevil has access to weakness (outside of that godawful skill on staff) and that 2 traits got merged (1 of which was a minor aka you always had it).

Anyway even outside of staff daredevil can chain dodge with other weapons, with evasion kinda being a major theme of the spec. If you are dead set on nerfing staff i am all for it, a total rework would be nice to move the weapon from being a pve loot stick and a pvp meme to an actually allround weapon.

[Exitus.3297]

Honestly I would agree with if it weren't for the fact that several other classes are significantly more broken than either of those builds, Holo being an egregious example.

[Daishi.6027]

The standard we have is that nothing in game should be able to apply condis and safely be able to dance around in evasion or from a safe place. This is what got condi mirage gutted time after time, and this has much more evasion than mirage did even before it's nerfs. By this precedent something has to go; either the application, or the Evasion.

Biggest issue with thief imo regardless of build and damage type is how slippery it is. If it whiffs it should be reliably punishable. This would be my go to fix allowing it to keep it's active defenses, but giving risk to engagement.

[Crab Fear.1624]

@Daishi.6027 said:The standard we have is that nothing in game should be able to apply condis and safely be able to dance around in evasion or from a safe place. This is what got condi mirage gutted time after time, and this has much more evasion than mirage did even before it's nerfs. By this precedent something has to go; either the application, or the Evasion.

Biggest issue with thief imo regardless of build and damage type is how slippery it is. If it whiffs it should be reliably punishable. This would be my go to fix allowing it to keep it's active defenses, but giving risk to engagement.

What is the fix, take away daredevil ability to evade?

[Daishi.6027]

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@"Daishi.6027" said:The standard we have is that nothing in game should be able to apply condis and safely be able to dance around in evasion or from a safe place. This is what got condi mirage gutted time after time, and this has much more evasion than mirage did even before it's nerfs. By this precedent something has to go; either the application, or the Evasion.

Biggest issue with thief imo regardless of build and damage type is how slippery it is. If it whiffs it should be reliably punishable. This would be my go to fix allowing it to keep it's active defenses, but giving risk to engagement.

What is the fix, take away daredevil ability to evade?

I honestly don't know and it's kind of hard to pick something that doesn't instantly kill the class thanks to it's core design.

So spit balling here:If it whiffs an attack, within 2 seconds after an attack that follows a teleport (or if the attack is a teleport itself), have any "return" skills go on a 2 - 3 second cooldown. At the same time lock any skills that block, evade, or teleport to a 1 - 2 second cooldown to force the only evasion option after a whiff to comes from endurance.With the exception of maybe Withdraw.

This way we can leave trait lines alone, and evasive weapon skills can be used as much as they want so long as it doesn't follow the initiation of a teleport. Yet giving a window to punish any who have exhausted their endurance. This shouldn't kill the class considering how much endurance regen is built into it.

[Crab Fear.1624]

@Daishi.6027 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Daishi.6027 said:The standard we have is that nothing in game should be able to apply condis and safely be able to dance around in evasion or from a safe place. This is what got condi mirage gutted time after time, and this has much more evasion than mirage did even before it's nerfs. By this precedent something has to go; either the application, or the Evasion.

Biggest issue with thief imo regardless of build and damage type is how slippery it is. If it whiffs it should be reliably punishable. This would be my go to fix allowing it to keep it's active defenses, but giving risk to engagement.

What is the fix, take away daredevil ability to evade?

I honestly don't know and it's kind of hard to pick something that doesn't instantly kill the class thanks to it's core design.

So spit balling here:If it whiffs an attack, within 2 seconds after an attack that follows a teleport (or if the attack is a teleport itself), have any "return" skills go on a 2 - 3 second cooldown. At the same time lock any skills that block, evade, or teleport to a 1 - 2 second cooldown to force the only evasion option after a whiff to comes from endurance.With the exception of maybe Withdraw.

This way we can leave trait lines alone, and evasive weapon skills can be used as much as they want so long as it doesn't follow the initiation of a teleport. Yet giving a window to punish any who have exhausted their endurance. This shouldn't kill the class considering how much endurance regen is built into it.

I wonder if they made it so you only got infiltrator's return on a successful infiltrator's strike if it would change anything.

I have dodge quite a few infiltrator's strikes, and I would find it fair if my good timing prevented them from getting a free reset (keeping them in range).

That's is if you are talking about s/d or s/p.

Personally, even though I main thief, I find it really cheezy to port in and out from behind walls or to port in and out and dodging while loading condis then zone back to safety.

If I dodge the first attack and it keeps you in range, that seems fairer.

But, if they do land IF, the skill works like normal. So, if you see them coming and can dodge, a chance to punish has been presented.

As for staff, it is still essentially the same kit.

EF is the only thing you can eyeball without hurting the core kit.

If the staff 3 trick is not as intended, then it should be fixed.

I don't see that many staff thieves, but that doesn't mean it can't be potentially broke.

I am just wondering what would have pushed it over the edge when everyone considered it a meme before.

[Daishi.6027]

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Daishi.6027 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Daishi.6027 said:The standard we have is that nothing in game should be able to apply condis and safely be able to dance around in evasion or from a safe place. This is what got condi mirage gutted time after time, and this has much more evasion than mirage did even before it's nerfs. By this precedent something has to go; either the application, or the Evasion.

Biggest issue with thief imo regardless of build and damage type is how slippery it is. If it whiffs it should be reliably punishable. This would be my go to fix allowing it to keep it's active defenses, but giving risk to engagement.

What is the fix, take away daredevil ability to evade?

I honestly don't know and it's kind of hard to pick something that doesn't instantly kill the class thanks to it's core design.

So spit balling here:If it whiffs an attack, within 2 seconds after an attack that follows a teleport (or if the attack is a teleport itself), have any "return" skills go on a 2 - 3 second cooldown. At the same time lock any skills that block, evade, or teleport to a 1 - 2 second cooldown to force the only evasion option after a whiff to comes from endurance.With the exception of maybe Withdraw.

This way we can leave trait lines alone, and evasive weapon skills can be used as much as they want so long as it doesn't follow the initiation of a teleport. Yet giving a window to punish any who have exhausted their endurance. This shouldn't kill the class considering how much endurance regen is built into it.

I wonder if they made it so you only got infiltrator's return on a successful infiltrator's strike if it would change anything.

I have dodge quite a few infiltrator's strikes, and I would find it fair if my good timing prevented them from getting a free reset (keeping them in range).

That's is if you are talking about s/d or s/p.

Personally, even though I main thief, I find it really cheezy to port in and out from behind walls or to port in and out and dodging while loading condis then zone back to safety.

If I dodge the first attack and it keeps you in range, that seems fairer.

But, if they do land IF, the skill works like normal. So, if you see them coming and can dodge, a chance to punish has been presented.

As for staff, it is still essentially the same kit.

EF is the only thing you can eyeball without hurting the core kit.

If the staff 3 trick is not as intended, then it should be fixed.

I don't see that many staff thieves, but that doesn't mean it can't be potentially broke.

I am just wondering what would have pushed it over the edge when everyone considered it a meme before.

I'm glad you can see the biggest issues that I have with it, I think we mostly concur on the main point. Really truly that's my biggest issue with thief since release, If change were to come however they go about implementing it is fine. I'd be willing to accept my suggestion is "to complicated" or something (you know how A-net is)

As to why it's only a problem now. Well in truth I think the OP is more complaining about Acro than they are staff, but I mean CI has existed since 2015. Times change, metas change, contexts change. Of the few constants Condi remains an issue.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@"Daishi.6027" said:The standard we have is that nothing in game should be able to apply condis and safely be able to dance around in evasion or from a safe place. This is what got condi mirage gutted time after time, and this has much more evasion than mirage did even before it's nerfs. By this precedent something has to go; either the application, or the Evasion.

Biggest issue with thief imo regardless of build and damage type is how slippery it is. If it whiffs it should be reliably punishable. This would be my go to fix allowing it to keep it's active defenses, but giving risk to engagement.

What is the fix, take away daredevil ability to evade?

After playing it A LOT now, I can say it isn't the sustain. The problem is too much poison application from Deadly Arts, and how Shortbow #4 works in conjunction with that. There is way too much AoE CC rolling off SB#4 nowadays due to DA. It's a bit strong in spvp sure, but it's disgustingly broken in wvw due to these: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Sigil_of_Absorption & https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Sigil_of_Draining There are actually no CDs on those sigils vs players.

So you take your pick, nerf how SB#4 works or nerf Deadly Arts poison application. Needs to be one or the other. I will post an inc video soon so you guys can see this. I haven't seen anyone quite notice the broken synergy that I've been using yet. It should be an interesting 5 minute watch.

[Crab Fear.1624]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@"Daishi.6027" said:The standard we have is that nothing in game should be able to apply condis and safely be able to dance around in evasion or from a safe place. This is what got condi mirage gutted time after time, and this has much more evasion than mirage did even before it's nerfs. By this precedent something has to go; either the application, or the Evasion.

Biggest issue with thief imo regardless of build and damage type is how slippery it is. If it whiffs it should be reliably punishable. This would be my go to fix allowing it to keep it's active defenses, but giving risk to engagement.

What is the fix, take away daredevil ability to evade?

After playing it A LOT now, I can say it isn't the sustain. The problem is too much poison application from Deadly Arts, and how Shortbow #4 works in conjunction with that. There is way too much AoE CC rolling off SB#4 nowadays due to DA. It's a bit strong in spvp sure, but it's disgustingly broken in wvw due to these:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Sigil_of_Absorption

&

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Sigil_of_Draining

There are actually no CDs on those sigils vs players.

So you take your pick, nerf how SB#4 works or nerf Deadly Arts poison application. Needs to be one or the other. I will post an inc video soon so you guys can see this. I haven't seen anyone quite notice the broken synergy that I've been using yet. It should be an interesting 5 minute watch.

Yeah? I expect a roleplay intro.

[Crab Fear.1624]

@Daishi.6027 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Daishi.6027 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Daishi.6027 said:The standard we have is that nothing in game should be able to apply condis and safely be able to dance around in evasion or from a safe place. This is what got condi mirage gutted time after time, and this has much more evasion than mirage did even before it's nerfs. By this precedent something has to go; either the application, or the Evasion.

Biggest issue with thief imo regardless of build and damage type is how slippery it is. If it whiffs it should be reliably punishable. This would be my go to fix allowing it to keep it's active defenses, but giving risk to engagement.

What is the fix, take away daredevil ability to evade?

I honestly don't know and it's kind of hard to pick something that doesn't instantly kill the class thanks to it's core design.

So spit balling here:If it whiffs an attack, within 2 seconds after an attack that follows a teleport (or if the attack is a teleport itself), have any "return" skills go on a 2 - 3 second cooldown. At the same time lock any skills that block, evade, or teleport to a 1 - 2 second cooldown to force the only evasion option after a whiff to comes from endurance.With the exception of maybe Withdraw.

This way we can leave trait lines alone, and evasive weapon skills can be used as much as they want so long as it doesn't follow the initiation of a teleport. Yet giving a window to punish any who have exhausted their endurance. This shouldn't kill the class considering how much endurance regen is built into it.

I wonder if they made it so you only got infiltrator's return on a successful infiltrator's strike if it would change anything.

I have dodge quite a few infiltrator's strikes, and I would find it fair if my good timing prevented them from getting a free reset (keeping them in range).

That's is if you are talking about s/d or s/p.

Personally, even though I main thief, I find it really cheezy to port in and out from behind walls or to port in and out and dodging while loading condis then zone back to safety.

If I dodge the first attack and it keeps you in range, that seems fairer.

But, if they do land IF, the skill works like normal. So, if you see them coming and can dodge, a chance to punish has been presented.

As for staff, it is still essentially the same kit.

EF is the only thing you can eyeball without hurting the core kit.

If the staff 3 trick is not as intended, then it should be fixed.

I don't see that many staff thieves, but that doesn't mean it can't be potentially broke.

I am just wondering what would have pushed it over the edge when everyone considered it a meme before.

I'm glad you can see the biggest issues that I have with it, I think we mostly concur on the main point. Really truly that's my biggest issue with thief since release, If change were to come however they go about implementing it is fine. I'd be willing to accept my suggestion is "to complicated" or something (you know how A-net is)

As to why it's only a problem now. Well in truth I think the OP is more complaining about Acro than they are staff, but I mean CI has existed since 2015. Times change, metas change, contexts change. Of the few constants Condi remains an issue.

What if they swapped places vigorous recovery and feline grace?

Then you have to choose between the constant vigor or the get out of jail free card. (instant reflexes)

But, even if you do choose get instant reflexes the vigor access is not completely removed. (and boon removal could keep it down if they choose that)

I mean hard to catch can be triggered with a cc as the fight begins, and then wasted...90s cd. (doesn't seem problematic)

I don't use upperhand, so if you think it should be nerfed..I wouldn't know how.

Don't stop is the best GM in my opinion (not worth much), but it is what it is.

[Alatar.7364]

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:After playing it A LOT now, I can say it isn't the sustain. The problem is too much poison application from Deadly Arts, and how Shortbow #4 works in conjunction with that. There is way too much AoE CC rolling off SB#4 nowadays due to DA. It's a bit strong in spvp sure, but it's disgustingly broken in wvw due to these: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Sigil_of_Absorption & https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Sigil_of_Draining There are actually no CDs on those sigils vs players.

So you take your pick, nerf how SB#4 works or nerf Deadly Arts poison application. Needs to be one or the other. I will post an inc video soon so you guys can see this. I haven't seen anyone quite notice the broken synergy that I've been using yet. It should be an interesting 5 minute watch.

Speaking for sPvP perspective;I disagree with "too much poison application from Deadly Arts", it is more like just the right amount since it is the only trait-line with provides reliable Condi, in Trickery it provides a poor confusion for steal and a trait for torment that is garbage compared to other choices and never taken + Uncatchable which has both seriously laughable radius and dmg, then there is the single trait in SA that provides 1 poison per 3 seconds in Stealth, that might possibly work in WvW but in sPvP that is a garbage trait in a garbage trait-line, so overall if you touch any DA condi application then you will never ever see any thief Condi build in PvP for the rest of our lives.

Speaking of Shortbow, if you take a condi amulet and condi runes with poison duration then if enemy literally AFKes in it for its whole duration then the DMG delivered is cca 3,4k which is not that great and as such it is deadly only if coupled with absolute Shortbow#4 spam which is in turn not that great for thief since he is out of ini now, not to mention Shortbow #4 spam is also only deadly if stood in its pulsing field for its entire duration.

So, since poison is Thiefs only truly damaging condition, I think the problem is probably the Combo-field interaction and cover Condi from DrDs Lotus training.Meaning that if Condi thief needs to be tweaked then I think it is: removing Whirl-finisher from Lotus Training, remove Torment from LT (it can't be Bleed nor Cripple since those, even though being extremely weak and of small radius, are gonna get applied by Uncatchable trait so you'd possibly not get rid of them as cover condis), make initial impact of Shortbow #4 blockable and only leave unblockable effect for poison application from the field excluding the 1 poison stack that gets applied with initial strike, meaning you can block the first poison stack, also reduce the daze to 0.5 second. Then maybe, just maybe if it still is a problem, reduce Shortbow#4 pulse to 3 seconds (down from 4). Possibly reduce Spider Venom attacks to 5 and make it shareable with only 2 allies. Anyway, whatever happens the condi application in DA should not be touched at all.

[Crab Fear.1624]

@Alatar.7364 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:After playing it A LOT now, I can say it isn't the sustain. The problem is too much poison application from Deadly Arts, and how Shortbow #4 works in conjunction with that. There is way too much AoE CC rolling off SB#4 nowadays due to DA. It's a bit strong in spvp sure, but it's disgustingly broken in wvw due to these:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Sigil_of_Absorption

&

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Sigil_of_Draining

There are actually no CDs on those sigils vs players.

So you take your pick, nerf how SB#4 works or nerf Deadly Arts poison application. Needs to be one or the other. I will post an inc video soon so you guys can see this. I haven't seen anyone quite notice the broken synergy that I've been using yet. It should be an interesting 5 minute watch.

Speaking for sPvP perspective;I disagree with

"too much poison application from Deadly Arts"

, it is more like just the right amount since it is the only trait-line with provides reliable Condi, in Trickery it provides a poor confusion for steal and a trait for torment that is garbage compared to other choices and never taken + Uncatchable which has both seriously laughable radius and dmg, then there is the single trait in SA that provides 1 poison per 3 seconds in Stealth, that might possibly work in WvW but in sPvP that is a garbage trait in a garbage trait-line, so overall if you touch any DA condi application then you will never ever see any thief Condi build in PvP for the rest of our lives.

Speaking of Shortbow, if you take a condi amulet and condi runes with poison duration then if enemy literally AFKes in it for its whole duration then the DMG delivered is cca 3,4k which is not that great and as such it is deadly only if coupled with absolute Shortbow#4 spam which is in turn not that great for thief since he is out of ini now, not to mention Shortbow #4 spam is also only deadly if stood in its pulsing field for its entire duration.

So, since poison is Thiefs only truly damaging condition, I think the problem is probably the Combo-field interaction and cover Condi from DrDs

Lotus training

.Meaning that if Condi thief needs to be tweaked then I think it is:

removing Whirl-finisher from Lotus Training, remove Torment from LT (it can't be Bleed nor Cripple since those, even though being extremely weak and of small radius, are gonna get applied by Uncatchable trait so you'd possibly not get rid of them as cover condis), make initial impact of Shortbow #4 blockable and only leave unblockable effect for poison application from the field

excluding

the 1 poison stack that gets applied with initial strike, meaning you can block the first poison stack, also reduce the daze to 0.5 second. Then maybe, just maybe if it still is a problem, reduce Shortbow#4 pulse to 3 seconds (down from 4). Possibly reduce Spider Venom attacks to 5 and make it shareable with only 2 allies. Anyway, whatever happens the condi application in DA should not be touched at all.

This is good insight. Imagine a condi thief without DD.

If it needs anything, you have pointed it out.