So what exactly did the Gods do to Balthazar?

[Loesh.4697]

So! We just got the latest batch of Q&A answers from the main discussion forum, and I had posed a question about Balthazars magic, or his divine energy rather. While the answer was definitely interesting in the facet that his magic has seemingly gone into every Elder Dragon on Tyria, not just Kralk and Aurene, Tom's answer left me somewhat confused. The way he phrased it seemed to indicate that the Anet team wasn't aware that it was a question of where Balthazars magic was during the stripping, or they might be being extremely coy with us, who knows?

Is Path of Fire we were basically told from One Path Ends forward that Balthazar had some kind of limiter on him, restricting his powers to a less then godly status. Whether that be the fact that he no longer blinds us in the same way the Gods used to do, and that Kormir does in Facing the Truth. Or the fact he seems to need to siphon the Dragons for more power to get back where he was, or his voice being different from the voice that Zafirah heard. Is that to say that perhaps Balthazars magic didn't even go anywhere and he was just somehow restrained to keep that power from overwhelming everything, but the Six didn't actually take that magic and put it anywhere in particular, so now it's with the Elder Dragons?

Any insight would be appreciated!

[Randulf.7614]

Perhaps they gave it to the new God of War.Baths new magic cane from some inherent in him as a magical being and suped up with from the bloodstone, primordus and Jormag

[mindcircus.1506]

@"Loesh.4697" said:Is Path of Fire we were basically told from One Path Ends forward that Balthazar had some kind of limiter on him,From Facing the Truth:

Lady Kasmeer Meade: I—please excuse me, Goddess. Perhaps I wasn't clear—we can't hope to defeat Balthazar without the aid of the Six.Rytlock Brimstone: Or the five. Balthazar is one of the Six.Kormir: No. He isn't. Balthazar has been stripped of his claim and title . He is no longer one of the Six.

And

Kormir: We stripped him of his power, and chained him in the Mists. There he would remain, forever—powerless to carry out his plans.

It's pretty clear here that there is no inhibitor. That his power was taken.

Or the fact he seems to need to siphon the Dragons for more power to get back where he was, or his voice being different from the voice that Zafirah heard. Is that to say that perhaps Balthazars magic didn't even go anywhere and he was just somehow restrained to keep that power from overwhelming everything, but the Six didn't actually take that magic and put it anywhere in particular, so now it's with the Elder Dragons?That doesn't play nicely with the quotes above.The question of what the other gods did (if anything) with his power remains. But considering they felt the Elder Dragons were more powerful than even them, it wouldn't have made sense for them to allow the dragons to take his magic.

The power that was absorbed by Kralkatorik (and later "shared out" by Aurene) was the energy Balthazaar siphoned from Jormag and Primordus, and the magic he took from exploding the Bloodstone.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

For reference to those not keeping up to date or having read through the Q&A thread, the response from Tom Abernathy is thus:

Balthazar’s divine energy—assuming you mean his magic—went into Aurene, Kralkatorrik, and, presumably, every other Elder Dragon on Tyria. And yeah, that probably matters enough that it will come up again at some point.

This seems to refer specifically to the magic released upon Balthazar's death, not what was stripped beforehand. Tom was either:

1. Unclear what the question was asking (to be fair, it was rather disjointed about everything),
2. Intentionally avoiding the real question because that's something they've done throughout the thread,
3. Or just talking about what he felt comfortable talking about.

@"Loesh.4697" said:Is Path of Fire we were basically told from One Path Ends forward that Balthazar had some kind of limiter on him, restricting his powers to a less then godly status.

During the PoF AMA, they outright stated he was stripped of power. It wasn't like Abaddon where he had all his divinity but it was sealed away behind locks.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/74qjlh/path_of_fire_devs_here_ask_us_anything/do0hz8w/?st=j9nk3g6t&sh=4eadf480

(I'd copy/paste but reddit's a pain with how it does spoilers and won't allow copy/pasting things under spoiler tags...)

Balthazar and Kormir also hint to the power being removed, similar to Dhuum, rather than it merely being limited/restricted, like with Abaddon's imprisonment.

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

Just so we're all working from the same thing, the quote in question:

@Julia Nardin.9824 said:And some more answers from Narrative Director, Tom Abernathy...

Before I pass out I actually had a really question I wanted to ask.Judging by all the information we've been given in PoF it's pretty obvious there's a new god of war, Kormir insistently uses the terminology of the Six in Facing the Truth, Zafirah hears a voice that is dissonant with Balthazars in some way, I wouldn't put it past Lyssa to somehow caretake Balthazars power considering how he talked about...or didn't talk about...her, and of course he doesn't melt peoples eyes and had to drain a whole lot of magic to get back to where he was before. I heard there was a line about Aurene being the new God of War too but for some reason that got cut.Balthazar playing humans got relatively little development in PoF despite the fact you'd think they'd probably have the most interactions given the expansion. Will we ever get to see where Balthazars divine energy went? or is that plot thread unlikely to be resolved in Guild Wars 2?

Tom says:

I don’t recall there being a line about Aurene being the new God of War, cut or no. Zafirah may have pondered it, but that’s not really a thing we’ve discussed. Interesting idea, though.

Balthazar’s divine energy—assuming you mean his magic—went into Aurene, Kralkatorrik, and, presumably, every other Elder Dragon on Tyria. And yeah, that probably matters enough that it will come up again at some point.

EDIT: Got partially ninja'd by Konig. Teach me to walk away mid-response.

[Loesh.4697]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:For reference to those not keeping up to date or having read through the Q&A thread, the response from Tom Abernathy is thus:

Balthazar’s divine energy—assuming you mean his magic—went into Aurene, Kralkatorrik, and, presumably, every other Elder Dragon on Tyria. And yeah, that probably matters enough that it will come up again at some point.

This seems to refer specifically to the magic released upon Balthazar's death, not what was stripped beforehand. Tom was either:

1. Unclear what the question was asking (to be fair, it was rather disjointed about everything),
2. Intentionally avoiding the real question because that's something they've done throughout the thread,
3. Or just talking about what he felt comfortable talking about.

@"Loesh.4697" said:Is Path of Fire we were basically told from One Path Ends forward that Balthazar had some kind of limiter on him, restricting his powers to a less then godly status.

During the PoF AMA, they outright stated he was stripped of power. It wasn't like Abaddon where he had all his divinity but it was sealed away behind locks.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/74qjlh/path_of_fire_devs_here_ask_us_anything/do0hz8w/?st=j9nk3g6t&sh=4eadf480

(I'd copy/paste but reddit's a pain with how it does spoilers and won't allow copy/pasting things under spoiler tags...)

Balthazar and Kormir also hint to the power being removed, similar to Dhuum, rather than it merely being limited/restricted, like with Abaddon's imprisonment.

Yeah I suppose that is fair, when I wrote the question during the original Q&A I was quite tired. I was just curious about the response because, while it was over the place I did think it was semi-clear about talking about Balthazars magic status before, rather then what happened to the magic he got after. Not put Tom on the spot of course, he might just outright be unable to say.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/74qjlh/path_of_fire_devs_here_ask_us_anything/do0hz8w/?st=j9nk3g6t&sh=4eadf480

I think you might have answered your own question, bc Sohothin and Aurene are definitely key factors ;) However, it's important to remember that Balthazar's power level is not at the same level when the other gods stripped him of his power and chained him in the Mists. The power he wields in PoF is what he's regained since absorbing a bloodstone and Taimi's machine. He's still mega-powerful, but the Commander is also pretty freakin' powerful and using a god's own sword against him and having your own pet dragon seem to go a long way.

(I think that's all the stuff @Konig Des Todes.2086 wanted to highlight, of which the main point is as Konig paraphrased: the Big B was stripped of power.)

(I'd copy/paste but reddit's a pain with how it does spoilers and won't allow copy/pasting things under spoiler tags...)Yes. It's definitely annoying extracting spoiler-text from Reddit.

[ugrakarma.9416]

is easy to guess where it fits: that released magic will be excuse to awake some elder dragon in a future plot.

A lot of people get confused about balthazar because they forget that bloodstone is really big, a little bloodstone magic is enough to drive normal people insane.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@ugrakarma.9416 said:is easy to guess where it fits: that released magic will be excuse to awake some elder dragon in a future plot.

Technically speaking, they're all awake. Though Jormag and Primordus went into a hibernative state after taking damage, this seems more akin to Kralkatorrik's state at the end of the Dragonfall meta, rather than actually hibernating for a thousand years.

@ugrakarma.9416 said:A lot of people get confused about balthazar because they forget that bloodstone is really big, a little bloodstone magic is enough to drive normal people insane.

Balthazar's "insanity" began well before absorbing that bloodstone though. The flashbacks during Facing the Truth are dated from when the Elder Dragons were first waking up - implied 200 years ago, I believe.

He seemed fundamentally unchanged by the bloodstone throughout Season 3, as well. If anything, he was more composed there than during the Facing the Truth flashbacks.

[ChronoPinoyX.7923]

@ugrakarma.9416 said:A lot of people get confused about balthazar because they forget that bloodstone is really big, a little bloodstone magic is enough to drive normal people insane.

Balthazar wouldn't be affected by Bloodstone's drawback of insanity since he carried a power much greater than the Bloodstones before, plus the Gods created the Bloodstones themselves in order to reduce the original magic that was used back in Tyria of old, so he's simply reusing a source of magic he is all too familiar with.

[adormtil.1605]

Is it true human gods or at least the original gods did not had an body? How does this help the conversation well if its true that means that Balthazaar divine power was taken out but can still act as an god as Balthazzar but the body that remained is the Balthazzar we fought the body created for the human god. You know there is an god of was without an body in their original form whatever that is and one the body that was left behind created to host the god without an human body.

[ThatOddOne.4387]

They do have bodies, they're just not flesh and blood bodies like humans.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@ChronoPinoyX.7923 said:

@ugrakarma.9416 said:A lot of people get confused about balthazar because they forget that bloodstone is really big, a little bloodstone magic is enough to drive normal people insane.

Balthazar wouldn't be affected by Bloodstone's drawback of insanity since he carried a power much greater than the Bloodstones before, plus the Gods created the Bloodstones themselves in order to reduce the original magic that was used back in Tyria of old, so he's simply reusing a source of magic he is all too familiar with.

The seers made the bloodstone. The Six merely separated it into five pieces. One of the bigger retcons of GW1 lore.

[ugrakarma.9416]

Sorry guys was in a rush and I expressed myself badly, I mean, many players don't realize how powerful balthazar got, because they forget how powerful the bloodstone was, and that as an example of that power just a piece of bloodstone is enough to take an ordinary human into madness.

Anyway you made valid points.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@ugrakarma.9416 said:Sorry guys was in a rush and I expressed myself badly, I mean, many players don't realize how powerful balthazar got, because they forget how powerful the bloodstone was, and that as an example of that power just a piece of bloodstone is enough to take an ordinary human into madness.

Anyway you made valid points.

Balthazar's strength was more due to the power that he took from Primordus and Jormag though. Our first interactions with Balthazar were after he had absorbed the Bloodstone's magic, after all.

Though from what I see, it's more that people are surprised he died so easily despite all the magic he absorbed, rather than people not realizing how powerful he became.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:The seers made the bloodstone. The Six merely separated it into five pieces. One of the bigger retcons of GW1 lore.

The GW2 lore is that the Seers created it. According to the GW1 wiki:

The bloodstones are five shards of a massive stone created by the Gods of Tyria and sealed with the blood of King Doric. They broke the stone into five pieces.

The articles aren't specific about how we learned these "facts" though. GW1 has at least some unreliable narrators, as well as some overly human-centric views of history. (In particular, I don't see why we should trust anything that Khilbron told us, since he had ulterior motives in pushing his version of history.) So why couldn't it be the case that what we learned in GW1 about the Bloodstone wasn't accurate? Or at least wasn't the full story?

Or put another way, I think the term "retcon" isn't necessarily appropriate. The more neutral phrasing would be "it's one of the extreme differences in lore between the two games." I think it's fair to point out the differences. And fair to call out the writers if they haven't adequately explained the discrepancy.

I think, however, it's fine if in-game sources disagree about history, if historians make mistakes (that lead to trouble down the road). I think that makes the game (as well as other stories) more interesting. If nothing else, it makes for at least 20 minutes in a Wooden Potatoes video.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:The seers made the bloodstone. The Six merely separated it into five pieces. One of the bigger retcons of GW1 lore.

The GW2 lore is that the Seers created it. According to the GW1 wiki:

The bloodstones are five shards of a massive stone created by the Gods of Tyria and sealed with the blood of King Doric. They broke the stone into five pieces.

The articles aren't specific about how we learned these "facts" though. GW1 has at least some unreliable narrators, as well as some overly human-centric views of history. (In particular, I don't see why we should trust anything that Khilbron told us, since he had ulterior motives in pushing his version of history.) So why couldn't it be the case that what we learned in GW1 about the Bloodstone wasn't accurate? Or at least wasn't the full story?

Or put another way, I think the term "retcon" isn't necessarily appropriate. The more neutral phrasing would be "it's one of the extreme differences in lore between the two games." I think it's fair to point out the differences. And fair to call out the writers if they haven't adequately explained the discrepancy.

I think, however, it's fine if in-game sources disagree about history, if historians make mistakes (that lead to trouble down the road). I think that makes the game (as well as other stories) more interesting. If nothing else, it makes for at least 20 minutes in a Wooden Potatoes video.

The term "retcon" means retroactive continuation; that there's additions or alterations made to previous stories. It's not a bad thing in of itself - nor is it good. It is the neutral phrasing. People just apply a negative view because so many diehard fans treat retcons as evil even if the retcons improve the story and was done well. The reason why I call it "one of the bigger retcons of GW1 lore" is because it has among the biggest impacts of the changes (alongside Glint's origins going from "created by the Six" to "scion and champion of Kralkatorrik").

Retcons are only as bad as the method used to introduce them.

Eitel the Unlovable being alive in HoT with no explanation despite his very notable mechanical death in the personal story is a bad retcon. Altering the krait's, dredge's, and Flame Legion's interaction methods with females or 'other races' was a bad retcon. Giving us three different variations of Scarlet's past in an attempt to retcon a reliable narrator was a bad but damn necessary retcon.

Saying "human historians got things wrong in ancient times when it was mostly oral tradition" or "the historians who made the written records were lied to" is not a bad retcon.

[brenda.9723]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

The reason why I call it "one of the bigger retcons of GW1 lore" is because it has among the biggest impacts of the changes (alongside Glint's origins going from "created by the Six" to "scion and champion of Kralkatorrik").>>

Wait what? Was Glint made by the six in GW1? OMG :o ! Why? How?

[Yannir.4132]

@"brenda.9723" said:Wait what? Was Glint made by the six in GW1? OMG :o ! Why? How?

It's the same thing as in real life.A man sees something he can't explain or understand: "Must be the gods/God/devil!"Then along comes science and tells you what actually happened.Lightnings and thunder don't mean an angry Zeus. They are just natural phenomenons and can easily be explained by science.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@brenda.9723 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

The reason why I call it "one of the bigger retcons of GW1 lore" is because it has among the biggest impacts of the changes (alongside Glint's origins going from "created by the Six" to "scion and champion of Kralkatorrik").>>

Wait what? Was Glint made by the six in GW1? OMG :o ! Why? How?

Original lore was that the Six Gods created the world entirely, and created the Forgotten and Glint to be caretakers and a guardian (respectively) of the world while they continued to build it and after they left.

This was always a bit dubious because the age of the Forgotten was stated to be 1769 BE, and Glint said to be "three thousand years old" (which remains true today in a way - now it's "3,000 years of memories" and, separately said, Glint doesn't remember much of anything before being purified by the Forgotten), but then there was the 10,000 BE Giganticus Lupicus bones.

[ChronoPinoyX.7923]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@ChronoPinoyX.7923 said:

@ugrakarma.9416 said:A lot of people get confused about balthazar because they forget that bloodstone is really big, a little bloodstone magic is enough to drive normal people insane.

Balthazar wouldn't be affected by Bloodstone's drawback of insanity since he carried a power much greater than the Bloodstones before, plus the Gods created the Bloodstones themselves in order to reduce the original magic that was used back in Tyria of old, so he's simply reusing a source of magic he is all too familiar with.

The seers made the bloodstone. The Six merely separated it into five pieces. One of the bigger retcons of GW1 lore.

Ah yeah, forgot about retconned lore... especially with the shift between GW1 and GW2