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why players crying about new squad invisible tag now? vets asked for feature long time ago


Ice Owl.6325

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if i am to pin point 1 major issue, it is this:

you need to communicate with each other to get things done.

so hidden tags make it difficult unless the hidden tags are friends and help each other.

public tag forgoes this by having someone to rally and said groups morale rises and lowers based on accomplishment, unless friends play.

wvw is like any pve mode, you got to have a basic strat to get things done and those who do not conform.to that basic setup will be a drag.

i.e. siege, supplies, coordination, team synergy.

the example i mentioned can be accomplished multiple ways if players communicate.

and having someone to coordinate it is really important.

for those who have served, you know how important your team leader is. and the members who synergize.

practice, repetition, imagination, knowledge, experience, and the ability to adapt on the now.

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@FitzChevalerie.1035 said:

@"Dawdler.8521" said:

This is kind of self moderated.

For starters if you have a 20 man pug then why
wouldnt
you want those sweet 3 pips? Its just a blob.

Secondly if you are invisible... How do you get people for a blob?You get guild mates?That are running compatible builds and arn't just rally bot.A pug with a bad build doesn't help, it's a nuisance for organized groupsIf I could just ask my guild mates to come and always get a 50 man blob I wouldnt need to run hidden either - I'd zerg every map openly.

He wasnt talking about guild raids. And with the premise of "it should only be for 20 or less" in the quote, 99.9% of guild runs wouldnt be affected by a limitation.

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Just made enemy out of my whole server just because i said to a comm running guild only tag(visible) with 6 members to maybe make it open because there were 30+ people following them out of squad and getting farmed near keep. I think invis tag is good option for people like that so that they dont cause more harm than good.

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I think this private squad thing doesn't change much. Those who like to run closed squad and tagless already did that years ago.

This function only enable those latecomers to see where their guild squad or their private squad is.

Anyway the private tag is useful when sometimes you just want to run alongside a zerg and not wanting to join it. Pop up your tag, only you can see it, others can't and all squad invites will be blocked :D

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@Dawdler.8521 said:

This is kind of self moderated.

For starters if you have a 20 man pug then why
wouldnt
you want those sweet 3 pips? Its just a blob.

Secondly if you are invisible... How do you get people for a blob?You get guild mates?That are running compatible builds and arn't just rally bot.A pug with a bad build doesn't help, it's a nuisance for organized groupsIf I could just ask my guild mates to come and always get a 50 man blob I wouldnt need to run hidden either - I'd zerg every map openly.

He wasnt talking about guild raids. And with the premise of "it should only be for 20 or less" in the quote, 99.9% of guild runs wouldnt be affected by a limitation.

Nah people in general don't care about pips that much, at least on EU. I suggested different possible changes:either:1) Make invisible squad available to only normal guilds (20 or less)or2) Make the problems pugs cause away (stealth blasting)

Unfortunately you think about this too straightforward, some blob commanders have such a big ego that they don't care about new players and only want people on discord. Thus they run invisible tags on public discords. They lack the reasoning between cause and effect. They're the same people who transfer the moment they don't get more than 40 people in squad, meaning bandvagoners or, if I may say, leeches that lack leadership qualities.

And yes, it is daily occurance for EU servers to have 40+ on discord, sometimes even 100.

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I don't like it but well there are also positive things and things lay deep under it. Many of it was already said

Pros:

  1. I can make with my pve guild missions in wvwv with a handful guild mate who do it without people following us meaningless.
  2. Its great to counter spies which have alt ACs on other servers

Cons:

  1. In my early days of WvW I followed guild zergs when no public zergs was there or the commander of the public zergs had a personality which I couldn't stand out. With this it becomes impossible and I fear new players will have a lot harder now which they already have because : you need you wvw equip, your mount , and now less possibilities to join a battle
  2. Its create chaos because no guild writes in the team chat if they tag up on another map , so you don't know who is on the map. This can result that both zergs/guild don't get their full squad on the map. They can unwillingly end up joining a fight or aiming on the same object or if it is the public zerg the commander can be suddenly get a rude whisper what he/she is doing on the map or fight here.

What you can do differently with the system in place : Guilds can/must communicate more what they are doing and Arena NET should/must implement a System where you can see how full a map is before a queue pops up.

Looking Deeper:The deep problem I see is the reason why guild want to tag invisible what they really want to do is GvG and not WvW and nobody should disturb them by doing it or steal their bags. This is already a long(er) time so.

For them GvG/Pkk is everything because PPT and working with the server as a whole don't get any rewards besides Karma and WxP which became nearly worthless through changes and progress e.g I have 10 mio karma and can't spend it for anything meaningful besides the new pve Map but the amount increase more then I can spend on a daily bases there.

I did already make a lot of suggestion to fix this like increasing the rewards for PPT by giving an extra event box for conquering or successful defending objects with mats in it scaling with the kind of object. Also allowing the scaling of some tactics in objects with the tier level of the object and giving champs the tier 2 tactic slots giving PPT also more meaning.

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@Lord of the Fire.6870 said:I don't like it but well there are also positive things and things lay deep under it. Many of it was already said

Pros:

  1. I can make with my pve guild missions in wvwv with a handful guild mate who do it without people following us meaningless.
  2. Its great to counter spies which have alt ACs on other servers

Cons:

  1. In my early days of WvW I followed guild zergs when no public zergs was there or the commander of the public zergs had a personality which I couldn't stand out. With this it becomes impossible and I fear new players will have a lot harder now which they already have because : you need you wvw equip, your mount , and now less possibilities to join a battle
  2. Its create chaos because no guild writes in the team chat if they tag up on another map , so you don't know who is on the map. This can result that both zergs/guild don't get their full squad on the map. They can unwillingly end up joining a fight or aiming on the same object or if it is the public zerg the commander can be suddenly get a rude whisper what he/she is doing on the map or fight here.

What you can do differently with the system in place : Guilds can/must communicate more what they are doing and Arena NET should/must implement a System where you can see how full a map is before a queue pops up.

Looking Deeper:The deep problem I see is the reason why guild want to tag invisible what they really want to do is GvG and not WvW and nobody should disturb them by doing it or steal their bags. This is already a long(er) time so.

For them GvG/Pkk is everything because PPT and working with the server as a whole don't get any rewards besides Karma and WxP which became nearly worthless through changes and progress e.g I have 10 mio karma and can't spend it for anything meaningful besides the new pve Map but the amount increase more then I can spend on a daily bases there.

I did already make a lot of suggestion to fix this like increasing the rewards for PPT by giving an extra event box for conquering or successful defending objects with mats in it scaling with the kind of object. Also allowing the scaling of some tactics in objects with the tier level of the object and giving champs the tier 2 tactic slots giving PPT also more meaning.

agree, we were able to do guild missions. yesterday we were able to do it without any issues.

and people doing small groups are enjoying this, especially markers etc.

downside is, morale of players defending if no tag isnt as high, atleast in nsp. but once we tag not invis, its easier.

i know they want fights and we oblige. our sea pop is few but our eu is decent.

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I saw 2 amusing things last night that thwarted the invisible tag guilds:

  1. Someone through up a rogue tag and just followed them around to identify exactly where the guild/group is running so people could follow them anyway
  2. People refused to call out the location of any enemy or any objectives being attacked unless they made their tag public and identified if and where they were going to map hop

While #2 is kinda childish but somewhat deserved against those who insist on running invisible tags in a game/mode that is community based, #1 is far more amusing as it completely cancels out secretiveness itself.

While those who wanted to run closed tags/groups prior to this change, they did it anyway. But WvW doesn't really have a thriving bustling population at the moment, so any change that encourages players to segregate or hide from one another isn't exactly positive. If people really have a problem with groups running closed, hidden, or otherwise trying to keep private, use #1, someone throw up a tag and follow them around so they can't hide.

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@DeadlySynz.3471 said:I saw 2 amusing things last night that thwarted the invisible tag guilds:

  1. Someone through up a rogue tag and just followed them around to identify exactly where the guild/group is running so people could follow them anyway
  2. People refused to call out the location of any enemy or any objectives being attacked unless they made their tag public and identified if and where they were going to map hop

While #2 is kinda childish but somewhat deserved against those who insist on running invisible tags in a game/mode that is community based, #1 is far more amusing as it completely cancels out secretiveness itself.

While those who wanted to run closed tags/groups prior to this change, they did it anyway. But WvW doesn't really have a thriving bustling population at the moment, so any change that encourages players to segregate or hide from one another isn't exactly positive. If people really have a problem with groups running closed, hidden, or otherwise trying to keep private, use #1, someone throw up a tag and follow them around so they can't hide.

because reason 1 is why i dont run closed anymore. i have a soft spot for pugs. and also why i created my core of 10 to carry.

as for #2, meh, if someone did that to us, id simply just wont care. no call out no loss. not my problem.

also to bypass # 2, i have players who go to the sites to confirm. =p

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@DeadlySynz.3471 said:I saw 2 amusing things last night that thwarted the invisible tag guilds:

  1. Someone through up a rogue tag and just followed them around to identify exactly where the guild/group is running so people could follow them anyway
  2. People refused to call out the location of any enemy or any objectives being attacked unless they made their tag public and identified if and where they were going to map hop

While #2 is kinda childish but somewhat deserved against those who insist on running invisible tags in a game/mode that is community based, #1 is far more amusing as it completely cancels out secretiveness itself.

While those who wanted to run closed tags/groups prior to this change, they did it anyway. But WvW doesn't really have a thriving bustling population at the moment, so any change that encourages players to segregate or hide from one another isn't exactly positive. If people really have a problem with groups running closed, hidden, or otherwise trying to keep private, use #1, someone throw up a tag and follow them around so they can't hide.

I can see how invis tag would seem insulting as a pug, but you should just let that group play how they like to play IMO. Especially since Anet saw fit to make it an actual feature finally. People enjoy the game in different ways. Some guilds like fighting alone to see how they really stack up against others or to challenge themselves. Excluding pugs is not anything personal against the pugs. Just another perspective for you. I actually agree that it is not very conducive to bringing new people into the game mode. The answer isn't to intentionally frustrate some people on your server because you feel they are being exclusionary though.

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@"Lord of the Fire.6870" said:I don't like it but well there are also positive things and things lay deep under it. Many of it was already said

Pros:

  1. I can make with my pve guild missions in wvwv with a handful guild mate who do it without people following us meaningless.
  2. Its great to counter spies which have alt ACs on other servers

Cons:

  1. In my early days of WvW I followed guild zergs when no public zergs was there or the commander of the public zergs had a personality which I couldn't stand out. With this it becomes impossible and I fear new players will have a lot harder now which they already have because : you need you wvw equip, your mount , and now less possibilities to join a battle
  2. Its create chaos because no guild writes in the team chat if they tag up on another map , so you don't know who is on the map. This can result that both zergs/guild don't get their full squad on the map. They can unwillingly end up joining a fight or aiming on the same object or if it is the public zerg the commander can be suddenly get a rude whisper what he/she is doing on the map or fight here.

What you can do differently with the system in place : Guilds can/must communicate more what they are doing and Arena NET should/must implement a System where you can see how full a map is before a queue pops up.

Looking Deeper:The deep problem I see is the reason why guild want to tag invisible what they really want to do is GvG and not WvW and nobody should disturb them by doing it or steal their bags. This is already a long(er) time so.

For them GvG/Pkk is everything because PPT and working with the server as a whole don't get any rewards besides Karma and WxP which became nearly worthless through changes and progress e.g I have 10 mio karma and can't spend it for anything meaningful besides the new pve Map but the amount increase more then I can spend on a daily bases there.

I did already make a lot of suggestion to fix this like increasing the rewards for PPT by giving an extra event box for conquering or successful defending objects with mats in it scaling with the kind of object. Also allowing the scaling of some tactics in objects with the tier level of the object and giving champs the tier 2 tactic slots giving PPT also more meaning.

The problem with taking a folksy approach and trying to extrapolate from a casual perspective like you're doing here is that you have a whole history of documentation in this game speaking against you. If you are curious about the behaviour of different guilds you can simply go to Youtube and search for it. You don't even have to engage in a discussion and take someone's word for it. I think my vanilla guild put out like 30 videos, my HoT guild at least around 20 and so on. It's a full video diary of the behaviours you try not to describe, but rather ascribe and attribute to those outgroups. They do this and they do that. If you go look at some guilds you can see that the vast majority of them are far more interconnected with what you describe as "WvW" than you are.

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@"Threather.9354" said:I think invisible tag should be limited to less than 20 people squads.

Nothing good will come if blob commanders start running discord-only invisible. People won't stick on maps (or join discord) after checking there is no commander.In a healthier environment I would hands down agree with you.At this point in the game though, things are getting so cynical that I believe that some good things could come from overthrowing the "tyranny of the majority". I'm not sure how things are on your current server but on the account I play most of my time on now we're looking at - if people join coms - upwards of 75% have their mics turned off. In squads of 50, it's not uncommon that less than 5 players say anything (useful) over stretches of hours and commanders do mic checks because the dead silence makes them believe their own mics do not work as they talk to themselves. We also have situations where certain occassional players can cause 100-man queues (eg., on resets) with no other borders tagged or populated to speak of while their friends and guildmates spend the entire session in queue as everyone and their mother want access to that one player.

Yet, admittedly, it is a shame that it has come to such levels of cynicism and that we still after 7 years have systems like the queue system which was archaic already at release.

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@subversiontwo.7501 said:

@"Threather.9354" said:I think invisible tag should be limited to less than 20 people squads.

Nothing good will come if blob commanders start running discord-only invisible. People won't stick on maps (or join discord) after checking there is no commander.In a healthier environment I would hands down agree with you.At this point in the game though, things are getting so cynical that I believe that some good things could come from overthrowing the "tyranny of the majority". I'm not sure how things are on your current server but on the account I play most of my time on now we're looking at - if people join coms - upwards of 75% have their mics turned off. In squads of 50, it's not uncommon that less than 5 players say anything (useful) over stretches of hours and commanders do mic checks because the dead silence makes them believe their own mics do not work as they talk to themselves.

You can't expect people to talk to strangers so casually. Some people don't actually have mics. The basic expectation is that they may listen and be able to deal with certain movements more easily.

I mean yes they could put in the effort to join your server and not listen to you, but at that point who really cares.

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@ArchonWing.9480 said:

@"Threather.9354" said:I think invisible tag should be limited to less than 20 people squads.

Nothing good will come if blob commanders start running discord-only invisible. People won't stick on maps (or join discord) after checking there is no commander.In a healthier environment I would hands down agree with you.At this point in the game though, things are getting so cynical that I believe that some good things could come from overthrowing the "tyranny of the majority". I'm not sure how things are on your current server but on the account I play most of my time on now we're looking at - if people join coms - upwards of 75% have their mics turned off. In squads of 50, it's not uncommon that less than 5 players say anything (useful) over stretches of hours and commanders do mic checks because the dead silence makes them believe their own mics do not work as they talk to themselves.

You can't expect people to talk to strangers so casually.Haha, good one B)
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@subversiontwo.7501 said:

@"Lord of the Fire.6870" said:I don't like it but well there are also positive things and things lay deep under it. Many of it was already said

Pros:
  1. I can make with my pve guild missions in wvwv with a handful guild mate who do it without people following us meaningless.
  2. Its great to counter spies which have alt ACs on other servers

Cons:
  1. In my early days of WvW I followed guild zergs when no public zergs was there or the commander of the public zergs had a personality which I couldn't stand out. With this it becomes impossible and I fear new players will have a lot harder now which they already have because : you need you wvw equip, your mount , and now less possibilities to join a battle
  2. Its create chaos because no guild writes in the team chat if they tag up on another map , so you don't know who is on the map. This can result that both zergs/guild don't get their full squad on the map. They can unwillingly end up joining a fight or aiming on the same object or if it is the public zerg the commander can be suddenly get a rude whisper what he/she is doing on the map or fight here.

What you can do differently with the system in place :
Guilds can/must communicate more what they are doing and Arena NET should/must implement a System where you can see how full a map is before a queue pops up.

Looking Deeper:
The deep problem I see is the reason why guild want to tag invisible what they really want to do is GvG and not WvW and nobody should disturb them by doing it or steal their bags. This is already a long(er) time so.

For them GvG/Pkk is everything because PPT and working with the server as a whole don't get any rewards besides Karma and WxP which became nearly worthless through changes and progress e.g I have 10 mio karma and can't spend it for anything meaningful besides the new pve Map but the amount increase more then I can spend on a daily bases there.

I did already make a lot of suggestion to fix this like increasing the rewards for PPT by giving an extra event box for conquering or successful defending objects with mats in it scaling with the kind of object. Also allowing the scaling of some tactics in objects with the tier level of the object and giving champs the tier 2 tactic slots giving PPT also more meaning.

The problem with taking a folksy approach and trying to extrapolate from a casual perspective like you're doing here is that you have a whole history of documentation in this game speaking against you. If you are curious about the behaviour of different guilds you can simply go to Youtube and search for it. You don't even have to engage in a discussion and take someone's word for it. I think my vanilla guild put out like 30 videos, my HoT guild at least around 20 and so on. It's a full video diary of the behaviours you try not to describe, but rather ascribe and attribute to those outgroups. They do this and they do that. If you go look at some guilds you can see that the vast majority of them are far more interconnected with what you describe as "WvW" than you are.

Hm I don't know can I be called casual whit 6 hour playtime on a daily basis and with 10 Mio karma while I also spent the same amount before ? The requirement to not be a causal must be pretty hardcore these days. xD . Yes I know people know each other.

No really I didn't meant that everybody is so server and guild a different and naturally I do ppk and openfield fights a lot too . Pkk and PPT should be two sides of the same coin. Problem this is theory and this is not how my server acts for the most part. What I also said about chaos this is true or was true because the people learned that if they are doing stealth runs without reason it create chaos they found that out the hard way already.

Okay my server in this regrade is not a great example this is properly the reason I would like an increase of the link between PPT and PPK. My server has no roamer guilds or PPT focused guilds the only thing they are doing mostly is PPK okay to be fair there are some guild who are doing or trying to do PPT at the same time. I must also saying we winning a lot of fight even against the best guilds in the EU pool and even when we got heavy beating months later you won't have same easy going like before (e.g. Kill).

We don't have often a night raid but when they took over the situation is mostly like this : Supps are near empty , the towers aren't T3, no def is build and sometimes there aren't even tactics in the towers. When we are linked with a server which have a lot of roamer and guild who are doing PPT and have people who are also doing it outside of the prime time we went straight to T0.(with Millersund)

Also when you enter a fight of a guild where you thing you should help you get bad post from them and I won't forget the day a public commander took the public zerg went into the obsidian sanctum to do GvG as a public zerg and continued so while the keep at the homes was under siege.

Yeah there are a reason why we second to last when we aren't linked.

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I'm pretty sure the only groups running tagless are doing so to discourage extra militia from following them around so they can get "fights". I don't think these people are running tagless to do covert ppt or avoid tag clutter on the minimap.So give taggers two options, (apart from simply not running a tag and putting a squad reticle on top of your driver):

  • The normal tag that is visible to your team.
  • A tag that is only visible to the enemy team.

Seems kind of weird, but I'm sure those groups strictly looking for fights would be all for knowing where the enemy group strictly looking for a fight is. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

~ Kovu

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