Why was revenant nerfed in PvE too?

[Xervite.5493]

The recent balance patch got some nerfs to rev, namely shiro's superspeed and sword 5 conditions (slow and chill), this made sense from pvp point of view but why pve? Superspeed was so good for escaping from cripple spamming mobs and the conditions on sword 5 helped power classes like reaper and chrono maintain their trait buffs. Now ik that herald has a trait for more speed to compensate on the lost superspeed but what about renegade? Its not like power sword shiro was devastating PvE so what gives?

[Asum.4960]

I think they like to keep the differences between gamemodes mostly on a efficacy rather than functionality basis.

[DonArkanio.6419]

The fact is, Shiro was overperforming in PvP mostly.While I think that game should be balanced around PVP first, then PvE, the direction of the nerfs and buffs on Revenant are very weird to me. But I got your point - why nerf something in PvE only because it overperforms in PvP, right? - This is caused by the poor balancing on Revenant skills.

You see. Each of the Revenant's Legends are mostly designed for PvP environment and then adjusted to PvE. The opposite goes for Renegade. Problem is, Shiro's design is almost 100% PvP. So, how do you balance a skill that is designed for PvP? Well, one of the modes has to suffer. Just like Renegade's design suffers from being purely PvE.

There is very little balance between usability of Revenant and Herald in PvP / WvW / PvE modes, hence the Legend system.

So, my answer to your question is - Revenant balance is doomed by each Legend's purpose.

[otto.5684]

@Xervite.5493 said:The recent balance patch got some nerfs to rev, namely shiro's superspeed and sword 5 conditions (slow and chill), this made sense from pvp point of view but why pve? Superspeed was so good for escaping from cripple spamming mobs and the conditions on sword 5 helped power classes like reaper and chrono maintain their trait buffs. Now ik that herald has a trait for more speed to compensate on the lost superspeed but what about renegade? Its not like power sword shiro was devastating PvE so what gives?

Power rev was buffed in PvE last patch. Small buffs, and still not good in raid. Open world though, power rev is extremely powerful. High mobility, high sustain and devastating damage.

[draxynnic.3719]

@Asum.4960 said:I think they like to keep the differences between gamemodes mostly on a efficacy rather than functionality basis.

Pretty much this - ArenaNet likes to have skills doing the same basic thing in different modes, even if the numbers may vary. They're willing to have some large differences in the numbers, but not to do things like have a skill inflict conditions in one mode and not in another. They might have the condition last 1s in one mode and 10s in the other, but they won't remove it altogether.

[LucianDK.8615]

I cant agree on high sustain for Rev, extremely fragile compared to a Reaper. Sure the Glint heal is strong, but its only for a few moments.

[draxynnic.3719]

@LucianDK.8615 said:I cant agree on high sustain for Rev, extremely fragile compared to a Reaper. Sure the Glint heal is strong, but its only for a few moments.

Herald/Shiro has the lifesteal aura, anything Jalis has, well, Jalis, and Kalla can also bring down some potent heals. Reaper, meanwhile, isn't what it used to be.

[LucianDK.8615]

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@LucianDK.8615 said:I cant agree on high sustain for Rev, extremely fragile compared to a Reaper. Sure the Glint heal is strong, but its only for a few moments.

Herald/Shiro has the lifesteal aura, anything Jalis has, well, Jalis, and Kalla can also bring down some potent heals. Reaper, meanwhile, isn't what it used to be.

Honestly never found it amounting to much for herald. My reaper is far more survivable and kills due to much better cleave. Even if their damage level is about the same.

[draxynnic.3719]

@LucianDK.8615 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@LucianDK.8615 said:I cant agree on high sustain for Rev, extremely fragile compared to a Reaper. Sure the Glint heal is strong, but its only for a few moments.

Herald/Shiro has the lifesteal aura, anything Jalis has, well, Jalis, and Kalla can also bring down some potent heals. Reaper, meanwhile, isn't what it used to be.

Honestly never found it amounting to much for herald. My reaper is far more survivable and kills due to much better cleave. Even if their damage level is about the same.

I've found the opposite: life force drains quickly while in shroud, and herald can get a fair amount of sustainability if you make good use of its abilities. Different playstyles can have different results, though.

[Knighthonor.4061]

How I look at it and cope with it is that if they nerf something its a good chance they about to Buff something in the future. yeah thats been very hit or miss with the Revenant (more miss if any) but still a chance there.

[narcx.3570]

@"DonArkanio.6419" said:The fact is, Shiro was overperforming in PvP mostly.While I think that game should be balanced around PVP first, then PvE, the direction of the nerfs and buffs on Revenant are very weird to me. But I got your point - why nerf something in PvE only because it overperforms in PvP, right? - This is caused by the poor balancing on Revenant skills.

I don't think the superspeed removal was really to directly address herald's over performance in sPvP (maybe a bonus/two bird's type side effect for the devs)... But ya, they clipped other classes' access to superspeed that patch as well--I think in an effort to make it feel like a more special buff for Engineers, who got their SS application expanded via traits.

Which is actually weird, since they have been trying to go away from the "unique class buffs" route for quite some time... But whatever. :bleep_bloop:

[DonArkanio.6419]

@narcx.3570 said:

@"DonArkanio.6419" said:The fact is, Shiro was overperforming in PvP mostly.While I think that game

should

be balanced around PVP first, then PvE, the direction of the nerfs and buffs on Revenant are very weird to me. But I got your point - why nerf something in PvE only because it overperforms in PvP, right? - This is caused by the poor balancing on Revenant skills.

I don't think the superspeed removal was really to directly address herald's over performance in sPvP (maybe a bonus/two bird's type side effect for the devs)... But ya, they clipped other classes' access to superspeed that patch as well--I think in an effort to make it feel like a more special buff for Engineers, who got their SS application expanded via traits.

Which is actually weird, since they have been trying to go away from the "unique class buffs" route for quite some time... But whatever. :bleep_bloop:

Yeah, that's most certainly it. And honestly I'm all for the certain buffs to be as special as they can be. If Impossible Odds didn't have SS sicne HoT people wouldn't bother. But I feel like this is a very very strong buff to let it be all over the place. Especially with PvP Herald's ability to stick to the target.

I wish to see Resistance on Mallyx working like SS. Take it away from Firebrand, this guy doesn't need it.

[narcx.3570]

@DonArkanio.6419 said:I wish to see Resistance on Mallyx working like SS. Take it away from Firebrand, this guy doesn't need it.

If they were to go that route, I wish that they'd just go all the way and make Pain Absorption function like resistance, but be a unique effect instead of a boon... That way Mallyx could stand a chance on point against scourges in team fights--where Mallyx is actually designed to be effective.

But yeah, giving a class like FB--that already has a ton of AoE cleanse--AoE resistance application as well is just super overkill.

[draxynnic.3719]

@DonArkanio.6419 said:Yeah, that's most certainly it. And honestly I'm all for the certain buffs to be as special as they can be. If Impossible Odds didn't have SS sicne HoT people wouldn't bother. But I feel like this is a very very strong buff to let it be all over the place. Especially with PvP Herald's ability to stick to the target.

I think a large part of it is to stop these speed buffs interacting with Concentration and other effects that extend boons. Impossible Odds (and Mirage dodges) are supposed to provide increased movement speed while they're actually active, not to linger for up to the same period again depending on boon duration increases.

[narcx.3570]

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@DonArkanio.6419 said:Yeah, that's most certainly it. And honestly I'm all for the certain buffs to be as special as they can be. If Impossible Odds didn't have SS sicne HoT people wouldn't bother. But I feel like this is a very very strong buff to let it be all over the place. Especially with PvP Herald's ability to stick to the target.

I think a large part of it is to stop these speed buffs interacting with Concentration and other effects that extend boons. Impossible Odds (and Mirage dodges) are supposed to provide increased movement speed

while they're actually active,

not to linger for up to the same period again depending on boon duration increases.

Concentration doesn't affect superspeed, as it's a unique effect not a boon.

[Tyrael.7410]

Just return to the game after 4 years... playing Revenant now and i really want to main it since i really like the complexity of the mechanic. However, in Pve, Revenant is horrible. horrible aoe dmg, lousy CC, bad and situational sustain......... nerf kills characters. Please Stop!

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

@Tyrael.7410 said:Just return to the game after 4 years... playing Revenant now and i really want to main it since i really like the complexity of the mechanic. However, in Pve, Revenant is horrible. horrible aoe dmg, lousy CC, bad and situational sustain......... nerf kills characters. Please Stop!

Revenant probably has the best and highest amount of CC in the game at this point. Also Condi Ren has great AoE damage and the sustain for all forms of Revenant (including Ren) is insanely good if you use it correctly, in all situations

[draxynnic.3719]

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@Tyrael.7410 said:Just return to the game after 4 years... playing Revenant now and i really want to main it since i really like the complexity of the mechanic. However, in Pve, Revenant is horrible. horrible aoe dmg, lousy CC, bad and situational sustain......... nerf kills characters. Please Stop!

Revenant probably has the best and highest amount of CC in the game at this point. Also Condi Ren has great AoE damage and the sustain for all forms of Revenant (including Ren) is insanely good if you use it correctly, in all situations

I think mesmer still has more potential to drain a breakbar quickly, but revenant is certainly up there when it comes to repeated CC.

[narcx.3570]

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@Tyrael.7410 said:Just return to the game after 4 years... playing Revenant now and i really want to main it since i really like the complexity of the mechanic. However, in Pve, Revenant is horrible. horrible aoe dmg, lousy CC, bad and situational sustain......... nerf kills characters. Please Stop!

Revenant probably has the best and highest amount of CC in the game at this point. Also Condi Ren has great AoE damage and the sustain for all forms of Revenant (including Ren) is insanely good if you use it correctly, in all situations

I think mesmer still has more potential to drain a breakbar quickly, but revenant is certainly up there when it comes to repeated CC.

Something like 3 patches ago Mez's got their cc really nerfed... Tides of Time only hits ONCE instead of ten times, and Moa's contribution is just bad now. Traited Diversion is still pretty good though... But Power War and Divinegade need to carry the cc in fracs now (assuming no consumables.)

The only problem with Rev cc in solo open world is that if you swap to staff to break a bar, you can't get back to swords in time to take advantage of it. But in a group, SotM wrecks it.

[Catchyfx.5768]

@narcx.3570 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@Tyrael.7410 said:Just return to the game after 4 years... playing Revenant now and i really want to main it since i really like the complexity of the mechanic. However, in Pve, Revenant is horrible. horrible aoe dmg, lousy CC, bad and situational sustain......... nerf kills characters. Please Stop!

Revenant probably has the best and highest amount of CC in the game at this point. Also Condi Ren has great AoE damage and the sustain for all forms of Revenant (including Ren) is insanely good if you use it correctly, in all situations

I think mesmer still has more potential to drain a breakbar quickly, but revenant is certainly up there when it comes to repeated CC.

Something like 3 patches ago Mez's got their cc really nerfed... Tides of Time only hits ONCE instead of ten times, and Moa's contribution is just bad now. Traited Diversion is still pretty good though... But Power War and Divinegade need to carry the cc in fracs now (assuming no consumables.)

The only problem with Rev cc in solo open world is that if you swap to staff to break a bar, you can't get back to swords in time to take advantage of it. But in a group, SotM wrecks it.

Totaly Agree with that, mes right now ist top in this, War on other hand. Right now Mallyx have high breakbar too/leap+boon removal/ but it costs 55energy so SotM is still superior

[draxynnic.3719]

@narcx.3570 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@Tyrael.7410 said:Just return to the game after 4 years... playing Revenant now and i really want to main it since i really like the complexity of the mechanic. However, in Pve, Revenant is horrible. horrible aoe dmg, lousy CC, bad and situational sustain......... nerf kills characters. Please Stop!

Revenant probably has the best and highest amount of CC in the game at this point. Also Condi Ren has great AoE damage and the sustain for all forms of Revenant (including Ren) is insanely good if you use it correctly, in all situations

I think mesmer still has more potential to drain a breakbar quickly, but revenant is certainly up there when it comes to repeated CC.

Something like 3 patches ago Mez's got their cc really nerfed... Tides of Time only hits ONCE instead of ten times, and Moa's contribution is just bad now. Traited Diversion is still pretty good though... But Power War and Divinegade need to carry the cc in fracs now (assuming no consumables.)

The only problem with Rev cc in solo open world is that if you swap to staff to break a bar, you can't get back to swords in time to take advantage of it. But in a group, SotM wrecks it.

Yeah, I was thinking in terms of Diversion, sword mirage ambush, Mantra of Distraction, and things of that nature that can allow mesmers to put out a lot of burst breakbar damage. Whether this works for the builds that are used in top-end content is another question, but if your goal is to smash a breakbar down quickly and you're not too concerned about what you'll do afterwards, mesmer can probably still smash it down quicker.

Rev's advantage is that it's impossible to make a revenant build without at least decent access to CC, given that every legend now has hard CC and most weapons do as well in addition to some soft CC, so any viable revenant build is naturally going to be a build with respectable CC access. Most of them also have short enough recharges that they'll probably be available again when the breakbar refreshes, which isn't necessarily the case for mesmer CC.

(Warrior probably can out-breakbar a rev as well, but again, they have to build for it.)

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@narcx.3570 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@Tyrael.7410 said:Just return to the game after 4 years... playing Revenant now and i really want to main it since i really like the complexity of the mechanic. However, in Pve, Revenant is horrible. horrible aoe dmg, lousy CC, bad and situational sustain......... nerf kills characters. Please Stop!

Revenant probably has the best and highest amount of CC in the game at this point. Also Condi Ren has great AoE damage and the sustain for all forms of Revenant (including Ren) is insanely good if you use it correctly, in all situations

I think mesmer still has more potential to drain a breakbar quickly, but revenant is certainly up there when it comes to repeated CC.

Something like 3 patches ago Mez's got their cc really nerfed... Tides of Time only hits ONCE instead of ten times, and Moa's contribution is just bad now. Traited Diversion is still pretty good though... But Power War and Divinegade need to carry the cc in fracs now (assuming no consumables.)

The only problem with Rev cc in solo open world is that if you swap to staff to break a bar, you can't get back to swords in time to take advantage of it. But in a group, SotM wrecks it.

Yeah, I was thinking in terms of Diversion, sword mirage ambush, Mantra of Distraction, and things of that nature that can allow mesmers to put out a lot of burst breakbar damage. Whether this works for the builds that are used in top-end content is another question, but if your goal is to smash a breakbar down quickly and you're not too concerned about what you'll do afterwards, mesmer can probably still smash it down quicker.

Rev's advantage is that it's impossible to make a revenant build without at least

decent

access to CC, given that every legend now has hard CC and most weapons do as well in addition to some soft CC, so any viable revenant build is naturally going to be a build with respectable CC access. Most of them also have short enough recharges that they'll probably be available again when the breakbar refreshes, which isn't necessarily the case for mesmer CC.

(Warrior probably can out-breakbar a rev as well, but again, they have to build for it.)

The reason I had posted initially saying it was probably the best at CC is that I was comparing meta “support” builds (since the supports bring the most CC for each profession) across the board and Rev has the highest amount (only factoring in meta Weapons/utilities, etc).

Alacrigade has: 1650

Support Chrono w/ max clonesHighest combo: pistol/shield domi: 1650Lowest Combo: focus/shield X: 1250

Power Bannerwar: 1400

Boon Thief: 1350

Druid: 1264

the above doesn’t factor in sigil of paralyzation since it’s a “do we need more CC option” and is a side option, not part of the main build (so therefore most people won’t be running it).also none of this factors in soft CC since that’s harder to calculate effectively and is slowerevery other spec is pretty much at 1000 or less, down to as low as 600 even

But you’re right, Mesmer can certainly spec hard into it if it wants to, but also as you say then it’s not as useful for what it’s there for so I don’t find it as realistic which is why I think Rev is certainly highest/best or tied for highest right now. Surge of the mists at a possible (and probable) 750 + Darkrazor’s 600 (over 6 seconds) and Jade Wind’s 300 is definitely quite strong. Also Mesmer won’t always be running Moa since they need /want timewarp at times now, so anytime they drop that they’re carrying 600 less. Moa also has a long cooldown to factor in which makes it less effective in the long run during a fight. I didn’t factor in Continuum Split either, since it’s also hit or miss as to how that factors In depending on each fight. It can certainly boost the Breakbar damage higher if used specifically for that purpose, but that usually results in potential other issues.

The best part about Alacrigade’s CC is it always has 1650 regardless since it doesn’t need to change its build really at all compared to Mesmer. And also its recharge time is about 20s-25s total for all the skills, so can be used at a much higher frequency and still get the same numbers (and higher in most cases) when compared to the others.

Anyway, thought the number breakdown might be helpful for anyone interested. It’s hard to really see it all without comparing them directly as best as possible

[Konrad Curze.5130]

@DonArkanio.6419 said:While I think that game should be balanced around PVP first, then PvE,

Sure, let's balance for the game mode that less than 5% people play rather than for the game mode that 95% people play

[Catchyfx.5768]

@Konrad Curze.5130 said:

@DonArkanio.6419 said:While I think that game

should

be balanced around PVP first, then PvE,

Sure, let's balance for the game mode that less than 5% people play rather than for the game mode that 95% people play

Well funcionality is more important in PvP. For PvE you can then just increase numbers. Right know we have opposite. Nerf after nerf.If something works in PvP it will more likely work in PvE then opposite-> renegade and herald.Herlad works in PvP and even in PvE is great.Renegade is Great in PvE but very bad in PvP->designed to be good in PvE

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

@Catchyfx.5768 said:

@Konrad Curze.5130 said:

@"DonArkanio.6419" said:While I think that game

should

be balanced around PVP first, then PvE,

Sure, let's balance for the game mode that less than 5% people play rather than for the game mode that 95% people play

Well funcionality is more important in PvP. For PvE you can then just increase numbers. Right know we have opposite. Nerf after nerf.If something works in PvP it will more likely work in PvE then opposite-> renegade and herald.Herlad works in PvP and even in PvE is great.Renegade is Great in PvE but very bad in PvP->designed to be good in PvE

It's actually better in pvp than people give it credit for. There's a fair amount of possible builds for it and Renegade with Kalla/Jalis can actually bunker (and kill) on points pretty well when built correctly. Kalla spirits getting CCed or killed in 1v1s on point isn't really an issue most of the time, especially if you drop Inspiring Reinforcement as you're leaving Jalis (it gives your spirits Stability briefly). Issue is mostly it's slow af and it can lose to Holosmith (which is rampant) quickly if you make a mistake. It will also eat other bunkers (like scrapper) if given enough time. I bunkered against 4 players at mid one time for 20 seconds with the build which was just enough time for backup to showup. But it's certainly not top tier or even great, just "good" if you're a good player