When will you address Holosmith? it has been 2 years since PoF

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

I've already given my feedback on this topic here -> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/83120/photon-forge-healing-turret-discussion

But as a side note, I would like to say that Static Discharge is dealing way way too much damage. It's just as bad or worse than Sic Em at 40%.

[Crab Fear.1624]

I feel like at this point this is the last real problem child, but we have 8 mesmer threads on the PvP so I am probably mistaken.

[praqtos.9035]

@Crab Fear.1624 said:I feel like at this point this is the last real problem child, but we have 8 mesmer threads on the PvP so I am probably mistaken.Not really, they calmed their tits as soon CI was deleted.But the problem with facerollsmith that even kids can smack their face on keyboard to get amazing results, dont remind you ... a certain calss that everyone hate right now ?;)Speaking of which @"Trevor Boyer.6524" you are on meme level of "pointing out the problem". Sic em damage level...yikes dud.The problem is perma vigor + vent exhaust = evade spam like a monkey = almost 1k heal on every evade = losing 15% heat = just spam it.They arent going for dps traitlines even and damage is still stupid high. Vigor uptime should be cut with an axe in hand and vent exhaust too, by traditional 50%, would also decrease health gain by half = less spam of forge and would make them look at another grandmaster trait.Hidden flask is outright broken, literally better than utility slot that they can get granting them ~60% boon uptime given by the "trait". Conversion (attention here) gives them a lot of boon potential you can turn it off and enter forge again no problem, it should cleanse, not convert.I dont like how passive engineers are - takedown round heavy crits are disgusting, on top of that have no clear animation, rather "good luck to see it" .Two separate reveals on their each own cooldown - meme passive tier.Protection on CC, barrier protection when reaching 33% health, auto condi removal (even tho with high cooldown, still there).In the first place vent exhaust + conversion holo trait + hidden flask (well, vigor could use nerfs too but this wont stop them from having it permanent). The other things to look at is stealth elixir toolbelt duration and photon wall that can be launched for 9-12k bursts, a defensive skill on 35s cd :D

[Lighter.5631]

i don't see the problem with holo. can you enlighten me with it?like is it op in team fights or you are talking about side node 1v1s, i'm not entirely sure.like there's scourge and fb who are clearing way better then holo at team fights,and like there's sb/weaver who can also side nodes.or perhaps you are talking about roaming? without rocket boots, i don't think forge 2 mobility qualifies it as a roamerlike what exactly are you talking about, in what way it is over performing at, after that we can actually have a conversation about it's detailing in traits like how it gets perma vigor and other class functions lol

[Vieux P.1238]

what's the point of fixing it? Pvp is pretty much left for dead.There's more energy put on posting threads about it then actual resources put to fix it.So why bother?

[Vagrant.7206]

@Lighter.5631 said:i don't see the problem with holo. can you enlighten me with it?like is it op in team fights or you are talking about side node 1v1s, i'm not entirely sure.like there's scourge and fb who are clearing way better then holo at team fights,and like there's sb/weaver who can also side nodes.or perhaps you are talking about roaming? without rocket boots, i don't think forge 2 mobility qualifies it as a roamerlike what exactly are you talking about, in what way it is over performing at, after that we can actually have a conversation about it's detailing in traits like how it gets perma vigor and other class functions lol

I mean, if we're being honest, a lot of the complaints are coming from mesmer mains looking for somebody to point the finger at.

[Arheundel.6451]

This I don't care ! I can free dive anywhere because I can recover from anything gameplay has been nerfed on all other classes : ranger -ele -mesmer - ....all side noders can get punished hard for Ramboing around...everybody except Engi with Holosmith.

Engi mains go around with their "L2P" arguments but here nobody is asking to delete engi from the game or see it their CC/burst gameplay removed..people are asking for Holo to finally become less faceroll, bring more risk to the table, let people think twice before free diving....not even a warrior does that anymore

[MyPuppy.8970]

@"Arheundel.6451" said:This I don't care ! I can free dive anywhere because I can recover from anything gameplay has been nerfed on all other classes : ranger -ele -mesmer - ....all side noders can get punished hard for Ramboing around...everybody except Engi with Holosmith.

Engi mains go around with their "L2P" arguments but here nobody is asking to delete engi from the game or see it their CC/burst gameplay removed..people are asking for Holo to finally become less faceroll, bring more risk to the table, let people think twice before free diving....not even a warrior does that anymore

That's why it's called Yolosmith.

[Vagrant.7206]

@"Arheundel.6451" said:This I don't care ! I can free dive anywhere because I can recover from anything gameplay has been nerfed on all other classes : ranger -ele -mesmer - ....all side noders can get punished hard for Ramboing around...everybody except Engi with Holosmith.

Engi mains go around with their "L2P" arguments but here nobody is asking to delete engi from the game or see it their CC/burst gameplay removed..people are asking for Holo to finally become less faceroll, bring more risk to the table, let people think twice before free diving....not even a warrior does that anymore

Well, vague sentiments aside, what would you actually do specifically? Most proposals I've seen would fundamentally damage core engi and scrapper more than holosmith.

[Tycura.1982]

I don't really see a problem with holo. They're good but not overwhelming. Somthing is always going to be relevant in the meta and at least this is counterable.

[alain.1659]

I offer a different approach. Lets nerf ele and thief more so that they, finally, riot and kill all overperforming specs. Ta daaa.

[Burnfall.9573]

@jbondo.9817 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@jbondo.9817 said:honestly if you're struggling vs holoplay radiance guardian or the meta sb warrior build, use 10% of your brain, and holo isn't as big of a threat as you're making it out to be.

use one broken brainless thing to defeat another broken brainless thing. im loving it.

welcome to gw2 pvp it's been around for almost 7 years now

+1

'History repeats itselfIt has to.What you allow,will continuewill repeat itselfEndlessly'

[MyPuppy.8970]

Just make heat generation apply self burning. And make burning increase heat generation. Seems logical. Engineers should know the laws of thermodynamics.

[Abelisk.5148]

Holos have too many instacast skills in their toolbelt, coupled with Static Discharge (combo'd into Launch Wall) as well as their turret heal skill which is the only heal skill engis ever use besides AED which is fairly situational if anything.

I'm surprised people aren't mentioning Spellbreaker. Magebane Tether is so busted--it has high might gen, reveal, a pull, a ton of damage, and with quickness the telegraphs are very clunky. Animations lag behind the actual damage. Arc Dividers can do over 10k damage on my Weaver.

Fire Weaver's fine, if anything just bring a lot of condition cleanse and you'll be fine.

[Vancho.8750]

Holo is just busted like everything in POF too spammy. It not that bad as a design it just needs cooldown fine tuning and real resource management since the Heat mechanic is just Cooldown which can be manipulated with traits, which is pretty annoying since most other resource classes have to gain their resource on top of the CD. Holo needs real resource or lower capabilities. Look at these skills basically the same but the POF version is way way better https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Holographic_Shockwavehttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/%22Chilled_to_the_Bone!%22Most of the skills are like that, they are something from something else but better and on steroids.More annoying is that they way Anet implements something, they are inconsistent with their design choices like when they create something they don't talk to each other.What are the rules to the skills and traits, why do some classes get abilities that do 3 things +1 from a trait for it while others get 10 on one button(Not specific for holo). Most of the abilities are just way too good they don't have drawback, there isn't "This ability is good in this situation but bad in the other".The whole problem with their balance is that they don't follow their own damn rules. When they nerf or rework things they break it to worthlessness or somehow it turns out it was a buff.

[Crab Fear.1624]

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@"Arheundel.6451" said:This

I don't care ! I can free dive anywhere because I can recover from anything

gameplay has been nerfed on all other classes : ranger -ele -mesmer - ....all side noders can get punished hard for Ramboing around...everybody except Engi with Holosmith.

Engi mains go around with their "L2P" arguments but here nobody is asking to delete engi from the game or see it their CC/burst gameplay removed..people are asking for Holo to finally become less faceroll, bring more risk to the table, let people think twice before free diving....not even a warrior does that anymore

Well, vague sentiments aside, what would you actually do specifically? Most proposals I've seen would fundamentally damage core engi and scrapper more than holosmith.

Something about like this.

Forge reveals holo for 6 seconds. no cdincreased cooldown on holo leap to 4-5 secsincrease heat gain on all skills by 100% (for ex 2% is now 4%)decrease vent exhaust heat loss to 10%Toss Elixir S stealth decreased to 2.5 secs based (3 when traited HGH)increase cooldown for corona burst, gain cooldown reduction for enemies hit.prime light beam reveals at the start of charge.

Holosmith is this very mobile, very versatile, high damage, quick recharge, high sustain class that is outperforming.

If holosmith is supposed to be a glass cannon, but they are more like a brass cannon.

If you outplay them, THEY are rewarded by their kit.

Finding the window of opportunity in a pound for pound equal match is like trying to see the pecker frame in Tyler Durden's film shows.

[Vagrant.7206]

@MyPuppy.8970 said:Just make heat generation apply self burning. And make burning increase heat generation. Seems logical. Engineers should know the laws of thermodynamics.

Can't apply this inconsistently though. Eles will need to leave fire attunement and into water attunement after using a few skills, or risk burning up.

While we're at it, berserkers will suffer from exhaustion after entering berserk mode.

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@"Arheundel.6451" said:This

I don't care ! I can free dive anywhere because I can recover from anything

gameplay has been nerfed on all other classes : ranger -ele -mesmer - ....all side noders can get punished hard for Ramboing around...everybody except Engi with Holosmith.

Engi mains go around with their "L2P" arguments but here nobody is asking to delete engi from the game or see it their CC/burst gameplay removed..people are asking for Holo to finally become less faceroll, bring more risk to the table, let people think twice before free diving....not even a warrior does that anymore

Well, vague sentiments aside, what would you actually do specifically? Most proposals I've seen would fundamentally damage core engi and scrapper more than holosmith.

Something about like this.

Forge reveals holo for 6 seconds. no cdincreased cooldown on holo leap to 4-5 secsincrease heat gain on all skills by 100% (for ex 2% is now 4%)decrease vent exhaust heat loss to 10%Toss Elixir S stealth decreased to 2.5 secs based (3 when traited HGH)increase cooldown for corona burst, gain cooldown reduction for enemies hit.prime light beam reveals at the start of charge.

• Would this be upon activation? Or upon leaving? Or is it just constantly being emitted? The first seems fine, the latter is overpunishing, and the middle is punitive.
• As a class, engineer has no other melee gap closers. There are none in its utility skills (and if you say rocket boots, so help me god).
• Ignoring all of your other suggested nerfs, doubling heat generation across the board would be a very heavy-handed nerf. If you want to force holos to rely on autoattacks and leaps more, then that's how you do it. If you wanted to do all of these things together, then you don't want holo to be viable period.
• Not a bad change to vent exhaust, to be sure, but then you're also pushing holos towards ECSU.
• That's a core engi change. I do agree the stealth is high (I think it should be 3-4s), but it's also the only on-demand stealth available to core engi. Be aware of this fact.
• This change is almost nonsensical to me. Corona Burst's primary use is for stability. It's already been nerfed to hell and back (requires hit, 4 -> 2s, half the might), and you want to add another condition onto it? It can't even cover an entire stomp now.
• Fine by me. It's relatively rare to use Prime Light Beam in stealth anyway.

[Crab Fear.1624]

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@MyPuppy.8970 said:Just make heat generation apply self burning. And make burning increase heat generation. Seems logical. Engineers should know the laws of thermodynamics.

Can't apply this inconsistently though. Eles will need to leave fire attunement and into water attunement after using a few skills, or risk burning up.

While we're at it, berserkers will suffer from exhaustion after entering berserk mode.

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@"Arheundel.6451" said:This

I don't care ! I can free dive anywhere because I can recover from anything

gameplay has been nerfed on all other classes : ranger -ele -mesmer - ....all side noders can get punished hard for Ramboing around...everybody except Engi with Holosmith.

Engi mains go around with their "L2P" arguments but here nobody is asking to delete engi from the game or see it their CC/burst gameplay removed..people are asking for Holo to finally become less faceroll, bring more risk to the table, let people think twice before free diving....not even a warrior does that anymore

Well, vague sentiments aside, what would you actually do specifically? Most proposals I've seen would fundamentally damage core engi and scrapper more than holosmith.

Something about like this.

Forge reveals holo for 6 seconds. no cdincreased cooldown on holo leap to 4-5 secsincrease heat gain on all skills by 100% (for ex 2% is now 4%)decrease vent exhaust heat loss to 10%Toss Elixir S stealth decreased to 2.5 secs based (3 when traited HGH)increase cooldown for corona burst, gain cooldown reduction for enemies hit.prime light beam reveals at the start of charge.

• Would this be upon activation? Or upon leaving? Or is it just constantly being emitted? The first seems fine, the latter is overpunishing, and the middle is punitive.
• As a class, engineer has no other melee gap closers. There are none in its utility skills (and if you say rocket boots, so help me god).
• Ignoring all of your other suggested nerfs, doubling heat generation across the board would be a very heavy-handed nerf. If you want to force holos to rely on autoattacks and leaps more, then that's how you do it. If you wanted to do all of these things together, then you don't want holo to be viable period.
• Not a bad change to vent exhaust, to be sure, but then you're also pushing holos towards ECSU.
• That's a core engi change. I do agree the stealth is high (I think it should be 3-4s), but it's also the only on-demand stealth available to core engi. Be aware of this fact.
• This change is almost nonsensical to me. Corona Burst's primary use is for stability. It's already been nerfed to hell and back, and you want to add another condition onto it?
• Fine by me. It's relatively rare to use Prime Light Beam in stealth anyway.

Only reveal on activation, not pulsing. If you leave and come back though, that's different.

I was trying to avoid core kits as much as possible, the only one that stands out to me is toss elixir s. reduced duration and reduced cd to like (b40, r32) to be fair

it doesn't need to be everyone of those i suggested.

they could pick a few and i think it would be brought into line.

[ZhouX.8742]

@Razor.6392 said:

@blitzkrieg.2451 said:

@Razor.6392 said:

@blitzkrieg.2451 said:

@Razor.6392 said:

• The 2s holo leap needs to go, it makes this class impossible to be kited. Only Thieves have that kind of sticking power but they also don't have stability, pulsing nuke effects, 20 stacks of might or protection. Holo Leap needs to have at least 3.5s of CD.
• Cut down on the quickness bro. Same goes for Soulbeast. Quickness is supposed to be a rare boon that should only be accessible for very short amounts of time.
• Elixir S, or at least the toolbelt, needs a drawback. Whether it is longer CD or something I dunno. It's a must pick as it gives both the best utility and toolbelt skills in 1.
• Photon Forge's range of abilities (namely corona, autoattack and shockwave) need to get looked at. Autoattack has 240 range, Corona has 300 radius and Shockwave 600. Need to get reduced to 180, 240 and 450 respectively (for reference, meteor shower, formerly one of the largest aoes in the game, only has 360 radius).

"The 2s holo leap needs to go, it makes this class impossible to be kited. Only Thieves have that kind of sticking power but they also don't have stability, pulsing nuke effects, 20 stacks of might or protection. Holo Leap needs to have at least 3.5s of CD."

Except holo performs a specific role that thief doesn't... It needs stability to perform it's role.

Thief doesn't need it, it's a decapper / 1upper

Comparing the 2 classes is irrelevant... You should compare Spellbreaker with Holosmith , because they perform similar roles.

"* Cut down on the quickness bro. Same goes for Soulbeast. Quickness is supposed to be a rare boon that should only be accessible for very short amounts of time. " - Soulbeast is gone from the meta... bro

If anybody is complaining about soulbeast now then they should practice more because it was killed in the meta basically ,

just better side node options now.

Quickness on holo I can see that, halving it's duration could be something.

"* Elixir S, or at least the toolbelt, needs a drawback. Whether it is longer CD or something I dunno. It's a must pick as it gives both the best utility and toolbelt skills in 1."

The drawback with Elixir S is that engineer literally needs it in every single build it uses in PvP, ever in the history of engineer except scrapper maybe. I mean, the drawback exists already in that the utility is needed for survivability and down options. If you take that away, there's no trade off... They just need it. So you'd have to buff other defenses. You probably don't agree with this, and that's fine... But engineer slots it for a reason in almost every build, not because it's broken , but because they need it and other survival options don't exist that synergize with the build approaches.

" * Photon Forge's range of abilities (namely corona, autoattack and shockwave) need to get looked at. Autoattack has 240 range, Corona has 300 radius and Shockwave 600. Need to get reduced to 180, 240 and 450 respectively (for reference, meteor shower, formerly one of the largest aoes in the game, only has 360 radius)."

That will change nothing, holo is a side noder , it will still cover the point aside from middle in foefire. If you dodge the corona you remove 1 of their 2 stabilities. Then they need to pop elixir u for stab, which is a trade off because it's also a stun break. This turns battles.

Comparing ele's meteor shower is kind of irrelevant, because ele isnt'a side noder outside of weaver. Holo, again, is.

Gotta know the roles before asking for balance changes... You can nerf holo all you want, you'll just see more spellbreakers and weavers and you'll most likely be complaining about them.

You are talking about pvp roles, I'm talking about overall balance and adding weaknesses to a class that pretty much is the full package. Holo cannot be kited, has 2-3 gap closers, has ridiculous damage mitigation and boon generation even when they're considered 'glass cannons'.

I mentioned meteor shower because most people are aware of its radius, to set as a point of reference (shockwave has SIX HUNDRED RADIUS). I EVEN SAID THIS and the guy starts saying "staff ele isn't a side noder" what the hell are you on about? Are you a robot? If it wouldn't make a difference then let's go ahead and nuke photon forge range on abilities.

Holy kitten dude, this is the kind of people that play holo I guess. Don't faceroll when you press the reply button.

I'm talking about roles because you compared a decapper/+1er to a side noder.. I mean, this is the 1st obvious pointer that you're most likely below average in PvP.

Balance has nothing to do with either, because balance works differently for both roles. Hence the perspective of balance in general, as it should be.

Also, they're not glass cannon, they're side noders similar to Spellbreaker. Hence the same amulet usage. Glass cannons don't use Demolisher, they use berserker or marauder.

If you can't see these obvious things, then I'm not sure what else to type here, your knowledge clearly shows itself on the topics.

Also I don't main holo, I multi-class, but these are just common sense things you should know in PvP.

So in your opinion, a "side noder" should have as much mobility and gap closers than a "decapper +1er"? You might pretend you have a lot of pvp knowledge but you're severely lacking in the IQ department my dude. That's a blatant logical fallacy that debunks your argument =/

All I see is a class with no weaknesses, very little regard for resource management and the nuking / CC output of a glass cannon while using demo amulet (once again, defeating a possible argument of it being presumably 'balanced').

Just stop replying man, this is embarrassing. I don't care about pvp, trash mode for deluded failures that never were good in any other actually competitive game, I'm a wvwer now lmao and yes, they're hilariously over the top, still.

comparing #2 photon spam with thief decap ability? what?

i mean photon 2 spam should be nerfed but why do you compare the 2? its not even close to mobility as thief, and it shouldn't be

stay in wvw please

[Lighter.5631]

and ofc they completely ignore my comment because it made too much senseand started proposing nerfs just for the sake of nerfing. lol

[Ragnar.4257]

@Lighter.5631 said:and ofc they completely ignore my comment because it made too much senseand started proposing nerfs just for the sake of nerfing. lol

Not really, your comment ignored because it didn't make enough sense. Just because scourge is superior at team-fight, and weaver is arguably superior at side-node (I would contest that one actually), doesn't mean that holosmith is fine.

The issue with holosmith is that it is very strong in every category. Maybe not #1 in every category, but still strong. Strong team-fight presence, strong dueling ability, strong mobility, strong sustain.

Scourge and FB are top tier in team-fight, but are fairly weak as side-noders. Mirage and Soulbeast are strong side-noders, but are fairly weak as team-fighters. Holosmith is strong at both. Again, maybe not #1, but still very strong.

[Rico.6873]

Pve raiding holo got nerfed hard and you wanna nerf it again? Hahahahahah......

It still surprises me that they nerfed pve holo and not pvp/WvW holo...

In my eyes they can crank up holo's damage but increase the drawback too

Buff PVE holo BTW!!!

Also something they could do is swapping the toolbelt lock so instead of locking the toolbelt after a max forge they lock the toolbelt while in holo mode

[mortrialus.3062]

@Rico.6873 said:Pve raiding holo got nerfed hard and you wanna nerf it again? Hahahahahah......

Sir, this is the PvP forums.

[Rico.6873]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Rico.6873 said:Pve raiding holo got nerfed hard and you wanna nerf it again? Hahahahahah......

Sir, this is the PvP forums.

Yes and if you read the nerfs that they gave holo they nerfed the pve part of holo which was in a decent/bad shape alreadyand did nothing with the pvp/wvw part of holo which is still going strong.

It still feels backwards to me.....

[Vagrant.7206]

@Rico.6873 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Rico.6873 said:Pve raiding holo got nerfed hard and you wanna nerf it again? Hahahahahah......

Sir, this is the PvP forums.

Yes and if you read the nerfs that they gave holo they nerfed the pve part of holo which was in a decent/bad shape alreadyand did nothing with the pvp/wvw part of holo which is still going strong.

It still feels backwards to me.....

This is normal for engineers. I don't think any of the balance team actually main engineer, and take random stabs at "fixing" the class.

Sort of like the most recent scrapper changes. They looked good on paper to anybody who wasn't an engineer main. Main engineers knew they were garbage disguised as a buff. It almost feels like engineer is the literal testing grounds for the balance devs.