Daredevil build with >70% Evade Uptime? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Daredevil build with >70% Evade Uptime?

I just ran into a daredevil who I sat on the point and fought with for maybe 6 minutes or so. I don't know very much about thief or DD but it seemed like he just jumped around constantly and had evades up maybe 90% of the time. It was ridiculous. He never killed me but I also could never kill him. What exactly did I run into?

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  • Alatar.7364Alatar.7364 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arklite.4013 said:
    I just ran into a daredevil who I sat on the point and fought with for maybe 6 minutes or so. I don't know very much about thief or DD but it seemed like he just jumped around constantly and had evades up maybe 90% of the time. It was ridiculous. He never killed me but I also could never kill him. What exactly did I run into?

    Either DrD S/D with Acro or DrD Staff with Acro, nonetheless "6 mins" is still pretty much impossible, even if he was evading only your hard hitting skills it would still run out of evades within approximately 1.5 mins. give or take 30 seconds.

    ~ I Aear cân ven na mar

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭

    Sounds like an Acro DD which knows how to use his evades very defensively.

    Considering Trickery gives Ini back both on weapon swap AND Stealing, DD can chain evades into staff5 into more evades due to the combination of ini regeneration and Staff mastery.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 14, 2019

    @Alatar.7364 said:

    @Arklite.4013 said:
    I just ran into a daredevil who I sat on the point and fought with for maybe 6 minutes or so. I don't know very much about thief or DD but it seemed like he just jumped around constantly and had evades up maybe 90% of the time. It was ridiculous. He never killed me but I also could never kill him. What exactly did I run into?

    Either DrD S/D with Acro or DrD Staff with Acro, nonetheless "6 mins" is still pretty much impossible, even if he was evading only your hard hitting skills it would still run out of evades within approximately 1.5 mins. give or take 30 seconds.

    Going by not being able to kill each other for 6 minutes, both builds was prolly bunkers.

    I dont see how that would be impossible between a build that you cant hit and your build that wont do any damage even if you could hit.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • Staff/Staff daredevil with energy sigils on both hands and Quick Pockets.

    It involves exploiting staff 3 by jumping right after activating, which can chain evades consistently. There are windows where you can strike but the thief will quickly break stun with shadowstep or something else.

  • Alatar.7364Alatar.7364 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Alatar.7364 said:

    @Arklite.4013 said:
    I just ran into a daredevil who I sat on the point and fought with for maybe 6 minutes or so. I don't know very much about thief or DD but it seemed like he just jumped around constantly and had evades up maybe 90% of the time. It was ridiculous. He never killed me but I also could never kill him. What exactly did I run into?

    Either DrD S/D with Acro or DrD Staff with Acro, nonetheless "6 mins" is still pretty much impossible, even if he was evading only your hard hitting skills it would still run out of evades within approximately 1.5 mins. give or take 30 seconds.

    Going by not being able to kill each other for 6 minutes, both builds was prolly bunkers.

    I dont see how that would be impossible between a build that you cant hit and your build that wont do any damage even if you could hit.

    I was talking about the Evade uptime OP was talking about, depending on what bunker build OP was playing the Thief still wanted to either dodge his CCs or Dodge to gain bonus dmg, both ways even with the extreme evade builds I dont see this happening for 6 mins.

    ~ I Aear cân ven na mar

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭

    A few #3 skills have evade so there's more than one resource pool to stagger out. You noticed the evades, but probably didn't notice the paced out spaces between actions.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL]

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭

    What tends to happen is the person in question uses his/her evades to avoid a given attack. This does not translate to 90 percent evade uptime. If I make an attack on an enemy once every 3 seconds and he manages to evade 4 of my attacks as the 5th gets through the evade uptime is on the order of 20 percent.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 14, 2019

    In reality a bounding Dodger staff build using sig of agility can get like 8 sec (real time) aprox of consecutive evades in which its traited fully into evading giving up dps. Half of these evade frames having long enough after casts for punishment as well as being predictable. After those 8 or so seconds the thief will have little resources and will have to disengage if opponent knows how to properly pressure them. The ini/endurance loop built into the build is far from infinitely sustainable. The thief continually dodged for more than a few sec real time which in game can feel far longer while not being pressured etc is all that happened here.
    Builds been around yrs now.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 14, 2019

    It was probably just staff/staff dd, but based on this:

    I don't know very much about thief or DD but it seemed like he just jumped around constantly

    I'd say there's no reason to trust you with your "6 minutes" and "90% evade uptime" estimates.

    Seems to me like you just saw a few evades and vaults, didn't know what is happening because you don't know anything about the class and typically went with OMG BROKEN CAN'T TOUCH HIM FOR WHOLE MATCH. Needless to say I'm not a fan of this approach and I'm instantly sceptical about anything you write in this thread now. :D

  • @Arklite.4013 said:
    I just ran into a daredevil who I sat on the point and fought with for maybe 6 minutes or so. I don't know very much about thief or DD but it seemed like he just jumped around constantly and had evades up maybe 90% of the time. It was ridiculous. He never killed me but I also could never kill him. What exactly did I run into?

    This is filled with hyperbole. None of this claim makes sense.

    Thief F1 must remain an instacast Steal skill. DE will simply apply DE Mark on target on Steal.
    Malice build-up independently from DE Mark. Mark only speed up the build-up, not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • Well, with that many evades, he must have had traits for evade/vigor/etc both in Daredevil and Acrobatic, which therefore reduces his DMG output. Hence, it is annoying to fight, but nothing to be too worried about.

  • godofcows.2451godofcows.2451 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2019

    did you notice any blinds? that could explain additional misses. If the fight was on a point, smoke screen blinds, and any resulting bonus stealth coming off it (if) could have saved him enough time to regen his ini and endurance to continue evading your attacks after smoke screen, then rinse and recycle. Could have been sa line traited too. If the thief is lucky enough to pull it off, it could explain the 6 minutes thing.

  • ...not to mention the super-telegraphed attacks from warriors that scream "I AM ABOUT TO SWING... Wait... Wait... It's coming... On the count to 3: 3, 2, 1, BAM" evades

  • Sir Vincent III.1286Sir Vincent III.1286 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2019

    @Arklite.4013 said:
    Thanks to the people writing legitimate responses. The circus clowns have a place too.

    To clarify on my original post, yes, 90% evade uptime was an exaggeration, as @babazhook.6805 and others mentioned, he dodged almost all of my attacks, which isn't indicative of his actual evade uptime. The 6 minute estimate was not an exaggeration, and I have no doubt it could've gone on longer had the game not ended. I was core warrior, which doesn't have that many attacks, and he was spamming jump, which made it visually confusing. However, I was making a conscious effort to land my attacks between his evades and was totally dumbfounded by how many were constantly evaded. We were pretty much on top of eachother the whole time and I was aiming to have a hitbox out as often as possible. He used a signet or two FWIW. I know there are DD builds out there with lots of evade uptime but this seem absurd as someone who's seen a lot of absurd things in my 6 years on this game.

    Well, first thing, 90% evade uptime is what's absurd since it's not reality. Evasion windows ranges from 1/2s to 3/4s, with the exception of Instant Reflex and Daggerstorm. Even if you factor all the evasion in, it will not grant a 90% evade uptime. The math don't lie.

    Second, in any PvP games I've seen and participated in not once that someone was left alone in a point fighting 1v1 for more than 1 minute. I'm not sure if your team mates were laying eggs somewhere on the map that they didn't bother rotating, or maybe they're just sitting around eating popcorn watching you struggle against a squishy Thief. The fact that players are constantly rotating, your claim of fighting 1v1 for 6 minutes is implausible.

    Now it seems to me that this is a perception issue. Just like many complains about Thief, they are based on what they think they saw instead of what actually had happen. In this case, we have an unreliable witness.

    So here's the challenge; Try to replicate the DD build and see if you can get 90% evade uptime and last for 6 minutes on a point. Don't forget to jump around to confuse your opponent -- it's very important. Only then you'll find your answer and realize that none of what you've claimed here is plausible.

    Thief F1 must remain an instacast Steal skill. DE will simply apply DE Mark on target on Steal.
    Malice build-up independently from DE Mark. Mark only speed up the build-up, not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Arklite.4013 said:
    and he was spamming jump, which made it visually confusing.

    So literally what I wrote:
    "Seems to me like you just saw a few evades and vaults, didn't know what is happening because you don't know anything about the class and typically went with OMG BROKEN CAN'T TOUCH HIM FOR WHOLE MATCH."

    And yet here you are calling people "clowns", good job. Claiming that DD "kept evading 90% of the time for 6 minutes and could go longer but the match ended" is laughable. If you want constructive and serious responses, how about not making up false statements like you did from the very start of this thread?

    Confusing reply. The 90% claim was an exaggeration from the beginning - I even spelled it outright in my previous reply because apparently that wasn't made obvious enough in the OP.
    This is not, nor has it ever been a rage post or claiming the build is OP. I was just awestruck by the amount of evades I encountered, so I came here to ask about it. Deliberately blowing things out of proportion is an odd approach to take on someone else's post.

    Because you'll point it out in your next reply if I don't type this - again, the 90% figure is an exaggeration.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Arklite.4013 said:
    Thanks to the people writing legitimate responses. The circus clowns have a place too.

    To clarify on my original post, yes, 90% evade uptime was an exaggeration, as @babazhook.6805 and others mentioned, he dodged almost all of my attacks, which isn't indicative of his actual evade uptime. The 6 minute estimate was not an exaggeration, and I have no doubt it could've gone on longer had the game not ended. I was core warrior, which doesn't have that many attacks, and he was spamming jump, which made it visually confusing. However, I was making a conscious effort to land my attacks between his evades and was totally dumbfounded by how many were constantly evaded. We were pretty much on top of eachother the whole time and I was aiming to have a hitbox out as often as possible. He used a signet or two FWIW. I know there are DD builds out there with lots of evade uptime but this seem absurd as someone who's seen a lot of absurd things in my 6 years on this game.

    Well, first thing, 90% evade uptime is what's absurd since it's not reality. Evasion windows ranges from 1/2s to 3/4s, with the exception of Instant Reflex and Daggerstorm. Even if you factor all the evasion in, it will not grant a 90% evade uptime. The math don't lie.

    Second, in any PvP games I've seen and participated in not once that someone was left alone in a point fighting 1v1 for more than 1 minute. I'm not sure if your team mates were laying eggs somewhere on the map that they didn't bother rotating, or maybe they're just sitting around eating popcorn watching you struggle against a squishy Thief. The fact that players are constantly rotating, your claim of fighting 1v1 for 6 minutes is implausible.

    Now it seems to me that this is a perception issue. Just like many complains about Thief, they are based on what they think they saw instead of what actually had happen. In this case, we have an unreliable witness.

    So here's the challenge; Try to replicate the DD build and see if you can get 90% evade uptime and last for 6 minutes on a point. Don't forget to jump around to confuse your opponent -- it's very important. Only then you'll find your answer and realize that none of what you've claimed here is plausible.

    See above on the aforementioned 90% figure. Evidently I made the mistake of believing people would see a figure like "90%" and understand that it is an exaggeration. I will not make this mistake on the thief forums again.

    I had other players come and fight on the point with me but I asked them to leave and do something elsewhere. The point was under our control at the time and I was more interested in the thief I was fighting than in killing him.

    I do not know what build he was using. I am neither creative nor skilled enough to recreate it. I am not concerned enough to attempt it. I was intrigued enough to ask the thief forums about it.

    Thanks.

  • Kageseigi.2150Kageseigi.2150 Member ✭✭✭

    @Arklite.4013 said:
    The point was under our control at the time

    That seems like a bad mistake on the Thief's part... unless the game was already out of hand.

    Evidently I made the mistake of believing people would see a figure like "90%" and understand that it is an exaggeration.

    Don't take it personally. Somewhere around here (or maybe on the old forums), there was a semi-official "Nerf Thief" thread that kept track of all the complaints and suggestions for why the Thief needed to be nerfed. We are talking about outrageous claims and absurd reasoning (along the lines of not being able to survive alone against two or more Thieves attacking at once in WvW).

    Does anybody have the link to that???

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Yeah, it's most likely a DD/Acro/Trickery build with utilities that restore initiative or endurance and/or provide their own blocks/evades/blinds. Possibly

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Acro, SA, Daredevil. Staff/Staff. Pick a good rune for sustain and probably Menders.

    Take Smoke Screen, Lotus dodge, and all traits to max out evades, cleanses and AoE blind.

    You can basically constantly evade, AoE blind and heal or cleanse to achieve “I can’t kill anything but look how impossible I am to kill.”

    Can also run the new preparation to trap opponents trying to leave their spawn. Just drop it in the path of where most of them will leave spawn and activate while they stand in it.

    Basically just work to distract and keep the enemies divided up and easy for your team to focus one at a time.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • Kageseigi.2150Kageseigi.2150 Member ✭✭✭

    @saerni.2584 said:
    Acro, SA, Daredevil. Staff/Staff.

    This is where I could see Concealing Restoration (Stealth on heal) as a Minor trait being annoying for a "bunker" build.

    Alas, can't we get a 1-3 second grace period in Stealth before we lose point contestation? Dagger Storm is much worse in terms of balance than short Stealth durations.

    Even if Anet has to create a new effect to keep a Thief abusing the grace period by re-entering Stealth immediately after exiting it (like the old chain-CnD permastealth trick), then so be it. A Thief that has remained visible for at least 3 seconds gains an effect called "Undeniable Presence" that will last for 3 seconds while in Stealth. While the effect is present, the Thief may contest a point while in Stealth. The effect will be removed at the end of the duration or immediately upon exiting Stealth. If a Thief stays in Stealth beyond the duration, or if the Thief re-enters Stealth before the effect recharges, then a Thief may not contest a point while in Stealth. The effect will only recharge after the Thief is continuously visible for 3 seconds.

    It would be a different matter if Thieves could manually exit Stealth without hitting something or using specific skills (Death's Judgement). For being the Master of Shadows, the Thief sure has a lack of control over Stealth (entering and exiting at will, and can't even remove or detect it from others).

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 16, 2019

    @Arklite.4013 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Arklite.4013 said:
    and he was spamming jump, which made it visually confusing.

    So literally what I wrote:
    "Seems to me like you just saw a few evades and vaults, didn't know what is happening because you don't know anything about the class and typically went with OMG BROKEN CAN'T TOUCH HIM FOR WHOLE MATCH."

    And yet here you are calling people "clowns", good job. Claiming that DD "kept evading 90% of the time for 6 minutes and could go longer but the match ended" is laughable. If you want constructive and serious responses, how about not making up false statements like you did from the very start of this thread?

    Confusing reply. The 90% claim was an exaggeration from the beginning - I even spelled it outright in my previous reply because apparently that wasn't made obvious enough in the OP.
    This is not, nor has it ever been a rage post or claiming the build is OP. I was just awestruck by the amount of evades I encountered, so I came here to ask about it. Deliberately blowing things out of proportion is an odd approach to take on someone else's post.

    What's exactly so confusing about my reply?
    What exactly was making it so obvious in your post that it was a conscious exaggeration? Because I can tell you what made me think it wasn't. You used the same language/style while stating "we fought for maybe 6 minutes" as you did when you wrote "jumped around constantly and had evades up maybe 90% of the time". Using "maybe" in both cases seems to me like you were trying to make a solid estimate while bringing up both numbers. Then you come up and say that the first one (6 minutes) wasn't an exaggeration, but second one (90% evade) obviously was while at the same time you just insulted people that called you out.
    I also don't think I was blowing things out of proportions, you literally wrote "It was ridiculous. He never killed me but I also could never kill him.". If you didn't mean that, then I'm not sure why you'd even write it.

    Rule of thumb: if you have no idea what is happening when you play against the class, actually try playing said class/spec and make sure to read all of its traits/skills. Just asking for the build when you don't know how the class plays and what each of the skill animation is seems kind of pointless.

  • Sir Vincent III.1286Sir Vincent III.1286 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 16, 2019

    @Arklite.4013 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Arklite.4013 said:
    Thanks to the people writing legitimate responses. The circus clowns have a place too.

    To clarify on my original post, yes, 90% evade uptime was an exaggeration, as @babazhook.6805 and others mentioned, he dodged almost all of my attacks, which isn't indicative of his actual evade uptime. The 6 minute estimate was not an exaggeration, and I have no doubt it could've gone on longer had the game not ended. I was core warrior, which doesn't have that many attacks, and he was spamming jump, which made it visually confusing. However, I was making a conscious effort to land my attacks between his evades and was totally dumbfounded by how many were constantly evaded. We were pretty much on top of eachother the whole time and I was aiming to have a hitbox out as often as possible. He used a signet or two FWIW. I know there are DD builds out there with lots of evade uptime but this seem absurd as someone who's seen a lot of absurd things in my 6 years on this game.

    Well, first thing, 90% evade uptime is what's absurd since it's not reality. Evasion windows ranges from 1/2s to 3/4s, with the exception of Instant Reflex and Daggerstorm. Even if you factor all the evasion in, it will not grant a 90% evade uptime. The math don't lie.

    Second, in any PvP games I've seen and participated in not once that someone was left alone in a point fighting 1v1 for more than 1 minute. I'm not sure if your team mates were laying eggs somewhere on the map that they didn't bother rotating, or maybe they're just sitting around eating popcorn watching you struggle against a squishy Thief. The fact that players are constantly rotating, your claim of fighting 1v1 for 6 minutes is implausible.

    Now it seems to me that this is a perception issue. Just like many complains about Thief, they are based on what they think they saw instead of what actually had happen. In this case, we have an unreliable witness.

    So here's the challenge; Try to replicate the DD build and see if you can get 90% evade uptime and last for 6 minutes on a point. Don't forget to jump around to confuse your opponent -- it's very important. Only then you'll find your answer and realize that none of what you've claimed here is plausible.

    See above on the aforementioned 90% figure. Evidently I made the mistake of believing people would see a figure like "90%" and understand that it is an exaggeration. I will not make this mistake on the thief forums again.

    I had other players come and fight on the point with me but I asked them to leave and do something elsewhere. The point was under our control at the time and I was more interested in the thief I was fighting than in killing him.

    I do not know what build he was using. I am neither creative nor skilled enough to recreate it. I am not concerned enough to attempt it. I was intrigued enough to ask the thief forums about it.

    Thanks.

    Your mistake is presuming that people will believe your exaggerations without data to back it up...and it's kinda insulting, really.

    If you're curious about the build, then ask about it without making things up.

    Just like everything else, the only real and substantive way to know for sure about a build is to play the build yourself. Or at the very least, do yourself a favor of researching the build so the next time you find a Thief with similar build, you'll know how to beat it. Everyone here conducts similar research. I personally have level 80 character for each profession. I play them so I'll know them.

    Back before the Elite Specs, there was a build called Endless Dodger which is more bunker than the current iteration because Feline Grace was so good.

    You claim that you're playing GW2 for 6 years and know nothing about Thief builds? That's another thing that makes your claim even less credible.

    EDIT: typos

    Thief F1 must remain an instacast Steal skill. DE will simply apply DE Mark on target on Steal.
    Malice build-up independently from DE Mark. Mark only speed up the build-up, not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • Taobella.6597Taobella.6597 Member ✭✭✭

    thief can go above 100% eva(in wvw) but just because a thief can dodge forever. does not mean it can not be hit.

    First way to counter dodge.
    Dodge in guild war 2 works as first .0150 frame is open to intrup start of a dodge roll an last .750 to .7650 after cast delay fixes player from being unable to dodge again or cast a skill that is not instant.
    Means if you double dodge you have a .03 window of unavoidable damage.

    Second way to counter dodge
    is to use wards that cause a knockdown or like effect. dodge can not go threw them with out interrupting the player.

    As you can see dodging may sound overpower to someone that does not know how to play the game. but dodge is one of weakest defense in the game.

  • @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Arklite.4013 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Arklite.4013 said:
    Thanks to the people writing legitimate responses. The circus clowns have a place too.

    To clarify on my original post, yes, 90% evade uptime was an exaggeration, as @babazhook.6805 and others mentioned, he dodged almost all of my attacks, which isn't indicative of his actual evade uptime. The 6 minute estimate was not an exaggeration, and I have no doubt it could've gone on longer had the game not ended. I was core warrior, which doesn't have that many attacks, and he was spamming jump, which made it visually confusing. However, I was making a conscious effort to land my attacks between his evades and was totally dumbfounded by how many were constantly evaded. We were pretty much on top of eachother the whole time and I was aiming to have a hitbox out as often as possible. He used a signet or two FWIW. I know there are DD builds out there with lots of evade uptime but this seem absurd as someone who's seen a lot of absurd things in my 6 years on this game.

    Well, first thing, 90% evade uptime is what's absurd since it's not reality. Evasion windows ranges from 1/2s to 3/4s, with the exception of Instant Reflex and Daggerstorm. Even if you factor all the evasion in, it will not grant a 90% evade uptime. The math don't lie.

    Second, in any PvP games I've seen and participated in not once that someone was left alone in a point fighting 1v1 for more than 1 minute. I'm not sure if your team mates were laying eggs somewhere on the map that they didn't bother rotating, or maybe they're just sitting around eating popcorn watching you struggle against a squishy Thief. The fact that players are constantly rotating, your claim of fighting 1v1 for 6 minutes is implausible.

    Now it seems to me that this is a perception issue. Just like many complains about Thief, they are based on what they think they saw instead of what actually had happen. In this case, we have an unreliable witness.

    So here's the challenge; Try to replicate the DD build and see if you can get 90% evade uptime and last for 6 minutes on a point. Don't forget to jump around to confuse your opponent -- it's very important. Only then you'll find your answer and realize that none of what you've claimed here is plausible.

    See above on the aforementioned 90% figure. Evidently I made the mistake of believing people would see a figure like "90%" and understand that it is an exaggeration. I will not make this mistake on the thief forums again.

    I had other players come and fight on the point with me but I asked them to leave and do something elsewhere. The point was under our control at the time and I was more interested in the thief I was fighting than in killing him.

    I do not know what build he was using. I am neither creative nor skilled enough to recreate it. I am not concerned enough to attempt it. I was intrigued enough to ask the thief forums about it.

    Thanks.

    Your mistake is presuming that people will believe your exaggerations without data to back it up...and it's kinda insulting, really.

    If you're curious about the build, then ask about it without making things up.

    Just like everything else, the only real and substantive way to know for sure about a build is to play the build yourself. Or at the very least, do yourself a favor of researching the build so the next time you find a Thief with similar build, you'll know how to beat it. Everyone here conducts similar research. I personally have level 80 character for each profession. I play them so I'll know them.

    Back before the Elite Specs, there was a build called Endless Dodger which is more bunker than the current iteration because Feline Grace was so good.

    You claim that you're playing GW2 for 6 years and know nothing about Thief builds? That's another thing that makes your claim even less credible.

    EDIT: typos

    Well considering I don't record my matches and the results screen doesn't really include any helpful information, I'm not sure what kind of data you would expect me to present. This wasn't a researched post. It wasn't a comparison to an attempt I had made. I only asked with the information I had and the assumption that users on the forum would be familiar enough to point me in the right direction.

    I have been playing for longer than 6 years I believe. I leveled a thief to 80. I just don't enjoy the class very much so I haven't touched it since. To quote my previous comment, "I do not know what build he was using. I am neither creative nor skilled enough to recreate it. I am not concerned enough to attempt it."

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I don't want to share the build because it is absolutely stupid to fight and play. However, I'll link a timestamp in Kate's stream where you can see me on the map holding my team's cap while 1v3ing for 2 minutes on marauders amulet lol.

    https://www.twitch.tv/videos/467366105?t=2h48m40s

    Watch till about 2h 50m 30s

    My thief is Guild Executioner and you can look at my health (it was full the entire time) over the course of the 1v3. Also, I'm fighting at far so you can see the icons of the Weaver, Mirage, and DH there.

  • Sir Vincent III.1286Sir Vincent III.1286 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 19, 2019

    @Arklite.4013 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Arklite.4013 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Arklite.4013 said:
    Thanks to the people writing legitimate responses. The circus clowns have a place too.

    To clarify on my original post, yes, 90% evade uptime was an exaggeration, as @babazhook.6805 and others mentioned, he dodged almost all of my attacks, which isn't indicative of his actual evade uptime. The 6 minute estimate was not an exaggeration, and I have no doubt it could've gone on longer had the game not ended. I was core warrior, which doesn't have that many attacks, and he was spamming jump, which made it visually confusing. However, I was making a conscious effort to land my attacks between his evades and was totally dumbfounded by how many were constantly evaded. We were pretty much on top of eachother the whole time and I was aiming to have a hitbox out as often as possible. He used a signet or two FWIW. I know there are DD builds out there with lots of evade uptime but this seem absurd as someone who's seen a lot of absurd things in my 6 years on this game.

    Well, first thing, 90% evade uptime is what's absurd since it's not reality. Evasion windows ranges from 1/2s to 3/4s, with the exception of Instant Reflex and Daggerstorm. Even if you factor all the evasion in, it will not grant a 90% evade uptime. The math don't lie.

    Second, in any PvP games I've seen and participated in not once that someone was left alone in a point fighting 1v1 for more than 1 minute. I'm not sure if your team mates were laying eggs somewhere on the map that they didn't bother rotating, or maybe they're just sitting around eating popcorn watching you struggle against a squishy Thief. The fact that players are constantly rotating, your claim of fighting 1v1 for 6 minutes is implausible.

    Now it seems to me that this is a perception issue. Just like many complains about Thief, they are based on what they think they saw instead of what actually had happen. In this case, we have an unreliable witness.

    So here's the challenge; Try to replicate the DD build and see if you can get 90% evade uptime and last for 6 minutes on a point. Don't forget to jump around to confuse your opponent -- it's very important. Only then you'll find your answer and realize that none of what you've claimed here is plausible.

    See above on the aforementioned 90% figure. Evidently I made the mistake of believing people would see a figure like "90%" and understand that it is an exaggeration. I will not make this mistake on the thief forums again.

    I had other players come and fight on the point with me but I asked them to leave and do something elsewhere. The point was under our control at the time and I was more interested in the thief I was fighting than in killing him.

    I do not know what build he was using. I am neither creative nor skilled enough to recreate it. I am not concerned enough to attempt it. I was intrigued enough to ask the thief forums about it.

    Thanks.

    Your mistake is presuming that people will believe your exaggerations without data to back it up...and it's kinda insulting, really.

    If you're curious about the build, then ask about it without making things up.

    Just like everything else, the only real and substantive way to know for sure about a build is to play the build yourself. Or at the very least, do yourself a favor of researching the build so the next time you find a Thief with similar build, you'll know how to beat it. Everyone here conducts similar research. I personally have level 80 character for each profession. I play them so I'll know them.

    Back before the Elite Specs, there was a build called Endless Dodger which is more bunker than the current iteration because Feline Grace was so good.

    You claim that you're playing GW2 for 6 years and know nothing about Thief builds? That's another thing that makes your claim even less credible.

    EDIT: typos

    Well considering I don't record my matches and the results screen doesn't really include any helpful information, I'm not sure what kind of data you would expect me to present. This wasn't a researched post. It wasn't a comparison to an attempt I had made. I only asked with the information I had and the assumption that users on the forum would be familiar enough to point me in the right direction.

    The data I'm talking about is the answer to the very first question; Is 90% evasion time even possible?

    Researching for an answer to that question would provide you with data that the answer is objectively a "no."

    That would have given you a helpful insight on how you would phrase your question here.

    Then, when you research for the next question; Can a Thief sustain a 90% evasion time for 6 minutes?

    You will find data that the answer is objectively "not possible."

    Those two questions answered by your researched data would leave you to ask a simple question; What build gives Thief staying power on the node?

    No exaggerations. No false presumptions. Those things are historically dangerous to the health of the Thief profession.

    I have been playing for longer than 6 years I believe. I leveled a thief to 80. I just don't enjoy the class very much so I haven't touched it since. To quote my previous comment, "I do not know what build he was using. I am neither creative nor skilled enough to recreate it. I am not concerned enough to attempt it."

    Well, if that is your position and attitude, then how would you know?

    Your experience fighting against such build already triggered your curiosity yet you still didn't want to explore the Thief profession?

    Even if you don't play the Thief profession, it's still beneficial for you to at least understand their mechanics.

    To answer your original question, no such Thief build exists.

    But to answer the "simple question" above; If I would build it, it will look like this - http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PawAYxjlNw6YXsFGJmUXbtaA-zZZ8IyUF4wB focusing on evasion, initiative gain, and 100% boon duration. Enjoy.

    Thief F1 must remain an instacast Steal skill. DE will simply apply DE Mark on target on Steal.
    Malice build-up independently from DE Mark. Mark only speed up the build-up, not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    But to answer the "simple question" above; If I would build it, it will look like this - http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PawAYxjlNw6YXsFGJmUXbtaA-zZZ8IyUF4wB focusing on evasion, initiative gain, and 100% boon duration. Enjoy.

    Pretty close to a build I run (which was based on the build in the video I posted), especially before the last patch. Main difference is that I ran Shortbow instead of Sword/Dagger - partially because I've found that sword/dagger doesn't really work for me, partially because I like having a ranged option, partially because it allows the option of stealth stacking using Smoke Screen, and primarily because the build is still oriented towards capping uncontested nodes, it's just that its other domain is holding those nodes rather than looking for +1s. (Damage isn't great by thief standards - I win the occasional 1v1, and even the odd 1v2 versus bad or overconfident players, but usually by outlasting the enemy... a ganker it is not. And that's running Demolisher...)

  • Arklite.4013Arklite.4013 Member ✭✭
    edited August 20, 2019

    After looking at an adjacent thread, it turns it out it's just classic Acro Staff DD.

    Thanks all.

  • @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    But to answer the "simple question" above; If I would build it, it will look like this - http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PawAYxjlNw6YXsFGJmUXbtaA-zZZ8IyUF4wB focusing on evasion, initiative gain, and 100% boon duration. Enjoy.

    Pretty close to a build I run (which was based on the build in the video I posted), especially before the last patch. Main difference is that I ran Shortbow instead of Sword/Dagger - partially because I've found that sword/dagger doesn't really work for me, partially because I like having a ranged option, partially because it allows the option of stealth stacking using Smoke Screen, and primarily because the build is still oriented towards capping uncontested nodes, it's just that its other domain is holding those nodes rather than looking for +1s. (Damage isn't great by thief standards - I win the occasional 1v1, and even the odd 1v2 versus bad or overconfident players, but usually by outlasting the enemy... a ganker it is not. And that's running Demolisher...)

    That video is old though. I can tell by just looking at the DD traits -- weakening and escapist no longer exist. :/

    Also looking at that build with 11k health makes me skeptic of its survivability.

    Thief F1 must remain an instacast Steal skill. DE will simply apply DE Mark on target on Steal.
    Malice build-up independently from DE Mark. Mark only speed up the build-up, not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Yeah, it was made a little before that patch. The principles still hold, though.

    The low health is survivable through having higher Toughness, good condi clear, and regular healing (the benefit of relying on Toughness instead of Vitality is that it amplifies the effect of healing). It can be susceptible to being spiked, though.

  • Taobella.6597Taobella.6597 Member ✭✭✭

    if you running perma dodge build it only logical take daredevil runes since it give 100% crit rate making you not have to take any preision giving you more vit stat. 80% eva staff thief in wvw sit around 21k hp.

  • @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Yeah, it was made a little before that patch. The principles still hold, though.

    The low health is survivable through having higher Toughness, good condi clear, and regular healing (the benefit of relying on Toughness instead of Vitality is that it amplifies the effect of healing). It can be susceptible to being spiked, though.

    Well, Poison bypasses toughness and it reduced healing efficiency. In other words, the build will fail against any profession that applies poison. This is why Vitality is better than toughness in most cases.

    Thief F1 must remain an instacast Steal skill. DE will simply apply DE Mark on target on Steal.
    Malice build-up independently from DE Mark. Mark only speed up the build-up, not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Yeah, it was made a little before that patch. The principles still hold, though.

    The low health is survivable through having higher Toughness, good condi clear, and regular healing (the benefit of relying on Toughness instead of Vitality is that it amplifies the effect of healing). It can be susceptible to being spiked, though.

    Well, Poison bypasses toughness and it reduced healing efficiency. In other words, the build will fail against any profession that applies poison. This is why Vitality is better than toughness in most cases.

    This depends on the amount of healing and the number of different sources. Even with Poison applied against you, if in a build that has multiple and ongoing heal sources toughness pulls ahead.

    As example I have a shout warrior who heals 2500~ per shout plus heals on stun breaks ETC. He is much btter off in Higher toughness lower vitality. My Condition thief in Shamans mix of armor is much the same. If healing sources are limited to one or two with a significant down time between them than more vitality needed.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Yeah, it was made a little before that patch. The principles still hold, though.

    The low health is survivable through having higher Toughness, good condi clear, and regular healing (the benefit of relying on Toughness instead of Vitality is that it amplifies the effect of healing). It can be susceptible to being spiked, though.

    Well, Poison bypasses toughness and it reduced healing efficiency. In other words, the build will fail against any profession that applies poison. This is why Vitality is better than toughness in most cases.

    This depends on the amount of healing and the number of different sources. Even with Poison applied against you, if in a build that has multiple and ongoing heal sources toughness pulls ahead.

    As example I have a shout warrior who heals 2500~ per shout plus heals on stun breaks ETC. He is much btter off in Higher toughness lower vitality. My Condition thief in Shamans mix of armor is much the same. If healing sources are limited to one or two with a significant down time between them than more vitality needed.

    It also depends on how much condi cleanse you have. Poison (and condition damage in general) doesn't do much if you throw it off, and you can get a LOT of condi cleanse out of the build.

  • just make a new thief go pvp lobby go dual dagger with daredevil acrobatics+random tree and alternate death blossom and lotus training, with a little training of near perfect chaining you basically are immortal, thou even with full condi build you wont deal that much damage, but thats irrelevant for this dicussion.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @HyperLooser.2698 said:
    just make a new thief go pvp lobby go dual dagger with daredevil acrobatics+random tree and alternate death blossom and lotus training, with a little training of near perfect chaining you basically are immortal, thou even with full condi build you wont deal that much damage, but thats irrelevant for this dicussion.

    Lmao death blossom chaining with lotus training for immortality? If fighting potatoes this just may work, any decent player will punish u hard if tried lol
    I apologize if this was a joke troll post and if so disregard my post.

  • @babazhook.6805 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Yeah, it was made a little before that patch. The principles still hold, though.

    The low health is survivable through having higher Toughness, good condi clear, and regular healing (the benefit of relying on Toughness instead of Vitality is that it amplifies the effect of healing). It can be susceptible to being spiked, though.

    Well, Poison bypasses toughness and it reduced healing efficiency. In other words, the build will fail against any profession that applies poison. This is why Vitality is better than toughness in most cases.

    This depends on the amount of healing and the number of different sources. Even with Poison applied against you, if in a build that has multiple and ongoing heal sources toughness pulls ahead.

    As example I have a shout warrior who heals 2500~ per shout plus heals on stun breaks ETC. He is much btter off in Higher toughness lower vitality. My Condition thief in Shamans mix of armor is much the same. If healing sources are limited to one or two with a significant down time between them than more vitality needed.

    I know for a fact the you make good builds. I've even adopted some of your build. However, the build in question has ZERO healing power and 11k HP using Earth Runes and Demo amulet. So I don't think that build concept applies here.

    So in this case, if you decided to have ZERO healing power, you should at least invest in Vitality. Which is my point.

    Thief F1 must remain an instacast Steal skill. DE will simply apply DE Mark on target on Steal.
    Malice build-up independently from DE Mark. Mark only speed up the build-up, not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Yeah, it was made a little before that patch. The principles still hold, though.

    The low health is survivable through having higher Toughness, good condi clear, and regular healing (the benefit of relying on Toughness instead of Vitality is that it amplifies the effect of healing). It can be susceptible to being spiked, though.

    Well, Poison bypasses toughness and it reduced healing efficiency. In other words, the build will fail against any profession that applies poison. This is why Vitality is better than toughness in most cases.

    This depends on the amount of healing and the number of different sources. Even with Poison applied against you, if in a build that has multiple and ongoing heal sources toughness pulls ahead.

    As example I have a shout warrior who heals 2500~ per shout plus heals on stun breaks ETC. He is much btter off in Higher toughness lower vitality. My Condition thief in Shamans mix of armor is much the same. If healing sources are limited to one or two with a significant down time between them than more vitality needed.

    It also depends on how much condi cleanse you have. Poison (and condition damage in general) doesn't do much if you throw it off, and you can get a LOT of condi cleanse out of the build.

    Condi cleanse means nothing if you cannot top off the damage done. Plus, poison, bleeding, and torment are handed out like candies in the Thief shop. You cannot cleanse them all. If you look at @babazhook.6805's condition build, I doubt you'll last long against him.

    Thief F1 must remain an instacast Steal skill. DE will simply apply DE Mark on target on Steal.
    Malice build-up independently from DE Mark. Mark only speed up the build-up, not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Yeah, it was made a little before that patch. The principles still hold, though.

    The low health is survivable through having higher Toughness, good condi clear, and regular healing (the benefit of relying on Toughness instead of Vitality is that it amplifies the effect of healing). It can be susceptible to being spiked, though.

    Well, Poison bypasses toughness and it reduced healing efficiency. In other words, the build will fail against any profession that applies poison. This is why Vitality is better than toughness in most cases.

    This depends on the amount of healing and the number of different sources. Even with Poison applied against you, if in a build that has multiple and ongoing heal sources toughness pulls ahead.

    As example I have a shout warrior who heals 2500~ per shout plus heals on stun breaks ETC. He is much btter off in Higher toughness lower vitality. My Condition thief in Shamans mix of armor is much the same. If healing sources are limited to one or two with a significant down time between them than more vitality needed.

    I know for a fact the you make good builds. I've even adopted some of your build. However, the build in question has ZERO healing power and 11k HP using Earth Runes and Demo amulet. So I don't think that build concept applies here.

    So in this case, if you decided to have ZERO healing power, you should at least invest in Vitality. Which is my point.

    Yes, I was not speaking to the build in question. I was just pointing out that dependent on the build toughness is advantageous over vitality . I was giving examples of where you better off with toughness.

  • @babazhook.6805 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Yeah, it was made a little before that patch. The principles still hold, though.

    The low health is survivable through having higher Toughness, good condi clear, and regular healing (the benefit of relying on Toughness instead of Vitality is that it amplifies the effect of healing). It can be susceptible to being spiked, though.

    Well, Poison bypasses toughness and it reduced healing efficiency. In other words, the build will fail against any profession that applies poison. This is why Vitality is better than toughness in most cases.

    This depends on the amount of healing and the number of different sources. Even with Poison applied against you, if in a build that has multiple and ongoing heal sources toughness pulls ahead.

    As example I have a shout warrior who heals 2500~ per shout plus heals on stun breaks ETC. He is much btter off in Higher toughness lower vitality. My Condition thief in Shamans mix of armor is much the same. If healing sources are limited to one or two with a significant down time between them than more vitality needed.

    I know for a fact the you make good builds. I've even adopted some of your build. However, the build in question has ZERO healing power and 11k HP using Earth Runes and Demo amulet. So I don't think that build concept applies here.

    So in this case, if you decided to have ZERO healing power, you should at least invest in Vitality. Which is my point.

    Yes, I was not speaking to the build in question. I was just pointing out that dependent on the build toughness is advantageous over vitality . I was giving examples of where you better off with toughness.

    I agree. But the main topic is about high evasion uptime and my position is within that context.

    So if you're evading attacks, you wouldn't really need Toughness since the idea is not to get hit. In this situation, Vitality is essential since condition damage cannot be evaded. You can evade the application of the condition, but once you get hit, Toughness will do nothing for you. At the very least, Vitality will buy you enough time to wait for your cleanse cooldown, endurance to refill, or initiative to regen.

    The build I posted above grants high Vitality and 100% buff duration. With High Vitality and effectively endless health regen and vigor, the build can take damage (thanks to marauder's resilience and weakening strike) and will simply heal back up in no time -- while also dealing good damage (bound boost, weakening strikes, and staff mastery).

    I just don't see how the build in the video can survive at all. It deals a lot of damage, but I really doubt its survival.

    Thief F1 must remain an instacast Steal skill. DE will simply apply DE Mark on target on Steal.
    Malice build-up independently from DE Mark. Mark only speed up the build-up, not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Yeah, it was made a little before that patch. The principles still hold, though.

    The low health is survivable through having higher Toughness, good condi clear, and regular healing (the benefit of relying on Toughness instead of Vitality is that it amplifies the effect of healing). It can be susceptible to being spiked, though.

    Well, Poison bypasses toughness and it reduced healing efficiency. In other words, the build will fail against any profession that applies poison. This is why Vitality is better than toughness in most cases.

    This depends on the amount of healing and the number of different sources. Even with Poison applied against you, if in a build that has multiple and ongoing heal sources toughness pulls ahead.

    As example I have a shout warrior who heals 2500~ per shout plus heals on stun breaks ETC. He is much btter off in Higher toughness lower vitality. My Condition thief in Shamans mix of armor is much the same. If healing sources are limited to one or two with a significant down time between them than more vitality needed.

    I know for a fact the you make good builds. I've even adopted some of your build. However, the build in question has ZERO healing power and 11k HP using Earth Runes and Demo amulet. So I don't think that build concept applies here.

    So in this case, if you decided to have ZERO healing power, you should at least invest in Vitality. Which is my point.

    Yes, I was not speaking to the build in question. I was just pointing out that dependent on the build toughness is advantageous over vitality . I was giving examples of where you better off with toughness.

    I agree. But the main topic is about high evasion uptime and my position is within that context.

    So if you're evading attacks, you wouldn't really need Toughness since the idea is not to get hit. In this situation, Vitality is essential since condition damage cannot be evaded. You can evade the application of the condition, but once you get hit, Toughness will do nothing for you. At the very least, Vitality will buy you enough time to wait for your cleanse cooldown, endurance to refill, or initiative to regen.

    The build I posted above grants high Vitality and 100% buff duration. With High Vitality and effectively endless health regen and vigor, the build can take damage (thanks to marauder's resilience and weakening strike) and will simply heal back up in no time -- while also dealing good damage (bound boost, weakening strikes, and staff mastery).

    I just don't see how the build in the video can survive at all. It deals a lot of damage, but I really doubt its survival.

    In a low Vitality + healing build build the key is the Acro line. With that healing you take Pain Response , GI and Assassins reward. You slap on Anti-toxin rune. You will have next to no issues with Conditions as the GI , PR and Escapist combination can keep them all off you. GI is very effective with anti-toxin runes in a build where you can keep your percentage of health over the threshold and this easier done with a lower vitality build. Given assassins reward a static heal and you get a heal on evade via the DRD line the health will usually be over 75 percent poison or not and GI flushes one condition every attack+1 from Anti-toxin and you get the 1+1 off the Escapists .

    I am not sure in anti-toxin available in pvp.

  • @babazhook.6805 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Yeah, it was made a little before that patch. The principles still hold, though.

    The low health is survivable through having higher Toughness, good condi clear, and regular healing (the benefit of relying on Toughness instead of Vitality is that it amplifies the effect of healing). It can be susceptible to being spiked, though.

    Well, Poison bypasses toughness and it reduced healing efficiency. In other words, the build will fail against any profession that applies poison. This is why Vitality is better than toughness in most cases.

    This depends on the amount of healing and the number of different sources. Even with Poison applied against you, if in a build that has multiple and ongoing heal sources toughness pulls ahead.

    As example I have a shout warrior who heals 2500~ per shout plus heals on stun breaks ETC. He is much btter off in Higher toughness lower vitality. My Condition thief in Shamans mix of armor is much the same. If healing sources are limited to one or two with a significant down time between them than more vitality needed.

    I know for a fact the you make good builds. I've even adopted some of your build. However, the build in question has ZERO healing power and 11k HP using Earth Runes and Demo amulet. So I don't think that build concept applies here.

    So in this case, if you decided to have ZERO healing power, you should at least invest in Vitality. Which is my point.

    Yes, I was not speaking to the build in question. I was just pointing out that dependent on the build toughness is advantageous over vitality . I was giving examples of where you better off with toughness.

    I agree. But the main topic is about high evasion uptime and my position is within that context.

    So if you're evading attacks, you wouldn't really need Toughness since the idea is not to get hit. In this situation, Vitality is essential since condition damage cannot be evaded. You can evade the application of the condition, but once you get hit, Toughness will do nothing for you. At the very least, Vitality will buy you enough time to wait for your cleanse cooldown, endurance to refill, or initiative to regen.

    The build I posted above grants high Vitality and 100% buff duration. With High Vitality and effectively endless health regen and vigor, the build can take damage (thanks to marauder's resilience and weakening strike) and will simply heal back up in no time -- while also dealing good damage (bound boost, weakening strikes, and staff mastery).

    I just don't see how the build in the video can survive at all. It deals a lot of damage, but I really doubt its survival.

    In a low Vitality + healing build build the key is the Acro line. With that healing you take Pain Response , GI and Assassins reward. You slap on Anti-toxin rune. You will have next to no issues with Conditions as the GI , PR and Escapist combination can keep them all off you. GI is very effective with anti-toxin runes in a build where you can keep your percentage of health over the threshold and this easier done with a lower vitality build. Given assassins reward a static heal and you get a heal on evade via the DRD line the health will usually be over 75 percent poison or not and GI flushes one condition every attack+1 from Anti-toxin and you get the 1+1 off the Escapists .

    I am not sure in anti-toxin available in pvp.

    Yeah no anti-toxin in PvP.

    Thief F1 must remain an instacast Steal skill. DE will simply apply DE Mark on target on Steal.
    Malice build-up independently from DE Mark. Mark only speed up the build-up, not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Yeah, it was made a little before that patch. The principles still hold, though.

    The low health is survivable through having higher Toughness, good condi clear, and regular healing (the benefit of relying on Toughness instead of Vitality is that it amplifies the effect of healing). It can be susceptible to being spiked, though.

    Well, Poison bypasses toughness and it reduced healing efficiency. In other words, the build will fail against any profession that applies poison. This is why Vitality is better than toughness in most cases.

    This depends on the amount of healing and the number of different sources. Even with Poison applied against you, if in a build that has multiple and ongoing heal sources toughness pulls ahead.

    As example I have a shout warrior who heals 2500~ per shout plus heals on stun breaks ETC. He is much btter off in Higher toughness lower vitality. My Condition thief in Shamans mix of armor is much the same. If healing sources are limited to one or two with a significant down time between them than more vitality needed.

    I know for a fact the you make good builds. I've even adopted some of your build. However, the build in question has ZERO healing power and 11k HP using Earth Runes and Demo amulet. So I don't think that build concept applies here.

    So in this case, if you decided to have ZERO healing power, you should at least invest in Vitality. Which is my point.

    Yes, I was not speaking to the build in question. I was just pointing out that dependent on the build toughness is advantageous over vitality . I was giving examples of where you better off with toughness.

    I agree. But the main topic is about high evasion uptime and my position is within that context.

    So if you're evading attacks, you wouldn't really need Toughness since the idea is not to get hit. In this situation, Vitality is essential since condition damage cannot be evaded. You can evade the application of the condition, but once you get hit, Toughness will do nothing for you. At the very least, Vitality will buy you enough time to wait for your cleanse cooldown, endurance to refill, or initiative to regen.

    The build I posted above grants high Vitality and 100% buff duration. With High Vitality and effectively endless health regen and vigor, the build can take damage (thanks to marauder's resilience and weakening strike) and will simply heal back up in no time -- while also dealing good damage (bound boost, weakening strikes, and staff mastery).

    I just don't see how the build in the video can survive at all. It deals a lot of damage, but I really doubt its survival.

    In a low Vitality + healing build build the key is the Acro line. With that healing you take Pain Response , GI and Assassins reward. You slap on Anti-toxin rune. You will have next to no issues with Conditions as the GI , PR and Escapist combination can keep them all off you. GI is very effective with anti-toxin runes in a build where you can keep your percentage of health over the threshold and this easier done with a lower vitality build. Given assassins reward a static heal and you get a heal on evade via the DRD line the health will usually be over 75 percent poison or not and GI flushes one condition every attack+1 from Anti-toxin and you get the 1+1 off the Escapists .

    I am not sure in anti-toxin available in pvp.

    Close. Escapist's Fortitude cleanses a condition when you evade an attack, and Trickster cleanses a condition when you use a trick. Combining with Roll for Initiative or Withdraw mean you can shake off a lot of conditions quickly. Signet of Agility is also a condi cleanse, and condi-cleansing sigils can also be used.

    Conditions really aren't a major problem unless you get hit with a big stack of burning from the fire weaver build and don't cleanse in time. If there's one of those around, then it's probably worth going for the extra Vitality. Generally speaking, though, when playing the build I'm more worried about CC chains and well-timed power spikes than conditions.

  • @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Yeah, it was made a little before that patch. The principles still hold, though.

    The low health is survivable through having higher Toughness, good condi clear, and regular healing (the benefit of relying on Toughness instead of Vitality is that it amplifies the effect of healing). It can be susceptible to being spiked, though.

    Well, Poison bypasses toughness and it reduced healing efficiency. In other words, the build will fail against any profession that applies poison. This is why Vitality is better than toughness in most cases.

    This depends on the amount of healing and the number of different sources. Even with Poison applied against you, if in a build that has multiple and ongoing heal sources toughness pulls ahead.

    As example I have a shout warrior who heals 2500~ per shout plus heals on stun breaks ETC. He is much btter off in Higher toughness lower vitality. My Condition thief in Shamans mix of armor is much the same. If healing sources are limited to one or two with a significant down time between them than more vitality needed.

    I know for a fact the you make good builds. I've even adopted some of your build. However, the build in question has ZERO healing power and 11k HP using Earth Runes and Demo amulet. So I don't think that build concept applies here.

    So in this case, if you decided to have ZERO healing power, you should at least invest in Vitality. Which is my point.

    Yes, I was not speaking to the build in question. I was just pointing out that dependent on the build toughness is advantageous over vitality . I was giving examples of where you better off with toughness.

    I agree. But the main topic is about high evasion uptime and my position is within that context.

    So if you're evading attacks, you wouldn't really need Toughness since the idea is not to get hit. In this situation, Vitality is essential since condition damage cannot be evaded. You can evade the application of the condition, but once you get hit, Toughness will do nothing for you. At the very least, Vitality will buy you enough time to wait for your cleanse cooldown, endurance to refill, or initiative to regen.

    The build I posted above grants high Vitality and 100% buff duration. With High Vitality and effectively endless health regen and vigor, the build can take damage (thanks to marauder's resilience and weakening strike) and will simply heal back up in no time -- while also dealing good damage (bound boost, weakening strikes, and staff mastery).

    I just don't see how the build in the video can survive at all. It deals a lot of damage, but I really doubt its survival.

    In a low Vitality + healing build build the key is the Acro line. With that healing you take Pain Response , GI and Assassins reward. You slap on Anti-toxin rune. You will have next to no issues with Conditions as the GI , PR and Escapist combination can keep them all off you. GI is very effective with anti-toxin runes in a build where you can keep your percentage of health over the threshold and this easier done with a lower vitality build. Given assassins reward a static heal and you get a heal on evade via the DRD line the health will usually be over 75 percent poison or not and GI flushes one condition every attack+1 from Anti-toxin and you get the 1+1 off the Escapists .

    I am not sure in anti-toxin available in pvp.

    Close. Escapist's Fortitude cleanses a condition when you evade an attack, and Trickster cleanses a condition when you use a trick. Combining with Roll for Initiative or Withdraw mean you can shake off a lot of conditions quickly. Signet of Agility is also a condi cleanse, and condi-cleansing sigils can also be used.

    That's true, however with ZERO healing power, you won't be able to top-off the damage you've taken. Withdraw will not be very effective either with ZERO healing power. Low Vitality build relies on high healing power to refill lost health.

    Conditions really aren't a major problem unless you get hit with a big stack of burning from the fire weaver build and don't cleanse in time. If there's one of those around, then it's probably worth going for the extra Vitality. Generally speaking, though, when playing the build I'm more worried about CC chains and well-timed power spikes than conditions.

    Even if you endured a power spike, with ZERO healing power, you will be forced to disengage, hide, and wait for your health to regen, else you'd die. Assassin's Reward heals poorly with ZERO healing power also so that is not very reliable source of healing if you want to keep your opponent occupied. Which means, you will not last long in the node to keep the fight going for "6 minutes" or so.

    Remember that idea is to keep a high evasion uptime, meaning a lot of Vigor and endurance refill, and keep the fight to last up to 6 minutes without giving up the node. You won't accomplish this with low HP, low concentration, and ZERO healing power.

    Your build is effective in hit, spike, and run, but not for dancing on the node.

    Thief F1 must remain an instacast Steal skill. DE will simply apply DE Mark on target on Steal.
    Malice build-up independently from DE Mark. Mark only speed up the build-up, not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    My experience says otherwise.

    With zero healing power, Escapist's Fortitude heals for over 400 with a 1s ICD, which is a respectable amount. Assassin's Reward is ~400-500 per skill for as long as you keep initiative up, and the build has a decent initiative engine Traited Withdraw is close to 5000 on a cooldown of less than fifteen seconds, giving you a total of around 700 health/second plus whatever you get out of Assassin's Reward. This is actually pretty good when the enemy is having trouble hitting you at all and they're dealing reduced damage because you have Toughness.

    Vitality is better for defending against being spiked down (and being spiked in a vulnerable frame IS a weakness of the build), but it isn't as good for sustaining long-term in fights where you do manage to avoid those spikes. Even without healing power, the damage reduction from Toughness increases the effective value of your heals (and your condition removal will deal with most condition pressure). if you went for Vitality instead, you'd be more resistant to spikes, but you'd be more prone to being worn down over time as your heals count for less.

    Obviously, if you ran Paladin or something that combines toughness and healing power (which means Celestial, since everything else that combined those two stats got removed for being too tanky - funny that!) you'd probably be even tougher, but you'd also hit like a wet noodle. Even in something like Marauder or Demolisher, a weakness of the build is that it pays for its sustain through not having a lot of kill potential, so going to a more defence-oriented amulet starts entering wet noodle territory.

  • @draxynnic.3719 said:
    My experience says otherwise.

    With zero healing power, Escapist's Fortitude heals for over 400 with a 1s ICD, which is a respectable amount. Assassin's Reward is ~400-500 per skill for as long as you keep initiative up, and the build has a decent initiative engine Traited Withdraw is close to 5000 on a cooldown of less than fifteen seconds, giving you a total of around 700 health/second plus whatever you get out of Assassin's Reward. This is actually pretty good when the enemy is having trouble hitting you at all and they're dealing reduced damage because you have Toughness.

    The heal-per-initiative-spent return from A.Reward is really poor with ZERO healing power. It is also an unreliable source of health if you have Confusion and Poison on you. The only real reliable source of healing is Withdraw and even traited will not be enough alleviate the condition pressure. Just as @babazhook.6805 said, which I agree, that high Toughness only works if you can outperform the damage and the reduced healing efficiency by having tons of healing power. Without it, you'll be easily pressured out of the node. Which is a failure to succeed on the objective of staying on the node for "6 minutes".

    Vitality is better for defending against being spiked down (and being spiked in a vulnerable frame IS a weakness of the build), but it isn't as good for sustaining long-term in fights where you do manage to avoid those spikes. Even without healing power, the damage reduction from Toughness increases the effective value of your heals (and your condition removal will deal with most condition pressure). if you went for Vitality instead, you'd be more resistant to spikes, but you'd be more prone to being worn down over time as your heals count for less.

    High Vitality, High Healing Power, and 100% buff duration shrugs off spikes and condition damage. With a 100% buff duration and high healing power, you can keep Health Regen healing for a very long time at high potency. Thus, it gives longevity to the build, meaning the build is not prone to being worn down over time.

    Obviously, if you ran Paladin or something that combines toughness and healing power (which means Celestial, since everything else that combined those two stats got removed for being too tanky - funny that!) you'd probably be even tougher, but you'd also hit like a wet noodle. Even in something like Marauder or Demolisher, a weakness of the build is that it pays for its sustain through not having a lot of kill potential, so going to a more defence-oriented amulet starts entering wet noodle territory.

    Yeah, Paladin is no good. The new Harrier ammy with Radiance rune is the key here.

    Thief F1 must remain an instacast Steal skill. DE will simply apply DE Mark on target on Steal.
    Malice build-up independently from DE Mark. Mark only speed up the build-up, not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Again, you're trying to beat my experience with theorycraft.

    There IS no amulet currently available in sPvP that has both Toughness and Healing Power except Celestial, and that's just not going to hit hard enough to do anything but pure survival.

    The build works because it's not just relying on Toughness. It's relying on rarely getting hit in the first place, and Toughness (along with Weakness spam) reduces the damage of the hits you DO take so that the healing you get can keep pace, even at base healing. Going Vitality instead provides protection against spikes, but reduces the value of your healing over time since the gain in "effective health" of each heal is less.

    I fully agree that being able to combine Toughness and Healing Power would synergise well - but the decision of the ArenaNet balance team is clearly that it synergises too well to be available outside of Celestial, and Celestial sacrifices a lot of your damage stats. The way I usually play the build, Demolisher is really the lowest damage I can afford to have and still be able to achieve anything other than not dying.

    Clearly, though, this argument is going around in circles. You're obviously sticking your heels in, and I can tell you that you're not going to persuade me that the build doesn't work when my own experience is that, within the limitations of my latency and skill level, it does. So I think this discussion is well past the point where it could be considered productive to continue.

  • Taylan.2187Taylan.2187 Member ✭✭
    edited September 3, 2019

    Wow, salty people all around here.

    I played a super evasive condi d/d trickery/acro/daredevil build for a while for fun, where the combination of Death Blossom and Lotus Training dodges would give me lots of "damage while evading" although I had to sacrifice too much damage so it was basically almost a troll build.

    With the Trickster trait that reduces trick cooldowns, you can use Withdraw every ~14 seconds. With Vigorous Recovery from acro which gives you vigor on heal and Endless Stamina which increases vigor effectiveness, that means you not only evade via the Withdraw itself but also start regenerating lots of endurance right after it, allowing you to start dodging again pretty soon. Also don't forget the Steal with reduced cooldown (24s) which also gives you back 25% endurance.

    You can also cast Roll for Initiative every 32 seconds which evades and gives lots of ini to allow you to keep up Death Blossom. Combine that with Upper Hand from acro which gives ini on evade every 2s, and you have a high Death Blossom uptime.

    Then there's Instant Reflexes which can kick in every 40s, and Dagger Storm whose cooldown is reduced to 72s thanks to Trickster.

    Oh and Hard to Catch from acro which can kick in every 30s and COMPLETELY REFILLS endurance when someone tries to CC you. Yeah.

    I didn't even use sigils of energy on that build and it was already ridiculously evasive. I can very much believe OP's 6 minute story. It might have been a troll build made explicitly for that exact purpose.

    EDIT: There's more to it that I forgot, LOL.

    Traited Haste has a 24s cooldown and breaks stun. The 32s cd Roll for Initiative is also a stun break. Traited Bandit's Defense (via Brawler's Tenacity) has a 16s cooldown, breaks stun, blocks, and refills 10% of your endurance. So while your Hard to Catch is on its 30s cooldown you still have THREE stun breaks with 16s, 24s, and 32s cooldown, where the one with the shortest cd also blocks and refills a bit of endurance.

    Do not underestimate a good troll thief's absurd survivability. :D

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Not salty so much as annoyed when someone tries to levy theorycraft against experience. I've tried running Marauder's instead of Demolisher's - the long-term sustain drops, while the increased resistance against spikes is negligible. The main weakness in my experience is getting stunlocked and power spiked, and at best Marauder gives you another second for a stunbreak to come up.

    When it comes to the healing power vs toughness argument... I was curious, so I looked at the numbers:

    An increase in Toughness of 560 gives you an effective increase in health of 25%. This doesn't apply to conditions, and when added to the smaller starting health pool of the thief it's less than the 5600 you'd get from Vitality, but this also means that the effective increase in any healing you receive is increased by 25% against power damage.

    Conversely, the healing power coefficient of Withdraw and Escapist's Fortitude is pretty low - 560 HP only gets you about 10% increase in healing received. Assassin's Reward is more sensitive to healing power, getting you about a 50% boost over the low base value, but if we're assuming that Assassin's Reward is less than half of the total, which seems reasonable (Initiative naturally replenishes at one per second, and if you include other sources of Initiative, you can probably double that at most, putting the return from Assassin's Reward at around 200-300 per second sustained) you actually get more value from your healing by investing into toughness than healing power (since the build is already fairly strong against conditions and isn't concerned about healing others).

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭

    When arguing heal power against Toughness healing power can not be looked at in a vacuum. Yes some of the healing coefficients low but enough sources of healing and your return for that investment into that stat grows substantially. Obviously a hit taken to damage out but in a Condition build just as example with high toughness and low vitality SOM+ Assassins reward+ escapists fortitude all working in conjunction, gives you heals on an ongoing basis. This added healing is not tied to use any other skills but your attack wherein you heal as you lay out the damage.

    This in fact where investing in heal power shines. It not in the singular withdraw heal. It in the fact you can heal AS you do damage. (This about the only type of build skelk venom really can be made to work). My warrior uses a high toughness low vitality combo while invested in healing so as to ensure the shouts and stun breaks apply fat heals on an ongoing basis. My DB Condi thief uses SOM, assassins reward and escapists along with the heal added off shammans/settlers to keep health topping up on every attack.

    I would not invest in healing power UNLESS there multiple sources of incoming heals.

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