Quickening Thirst just makes no sense with Dagger in main hand. — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Quickening Thirst just makes no sense with Dagger in main hand.

Virtuality.8351Virtuality.8351 Member ✭✭✭
edited August 13, 2019 in Necromancer

Quickening Thirst (Major Adept of Blood Magic Specialization)
Increases movement speed while above the health threshold. Dagger skills recharge faster if activated while above the health threshold.

Health Threshold: 75%
Movement Speed Increase: 25%
Recharge Reduced: 33%

First of all, why am I expected to maintain above 75% health in order to be rewarded, when I am equipped with a weapon that leeches (with skill #2)? By the choice of weapon, it already means that I expect to see potentially overwhelming damage and aim to counter that, however obsolete the weapon skills are. Not to mention Dark Pact (#3) even bleeds the character itself, making it even harder to maintain above the threshold.

Alternately, I could maintain above the threshold by camping in shroud as long as possible, but then, I would also lose access to all my weapon skills, effectively nullifying the reward.

Furthermore, what is the point of rewarding me with shorter recharge time for leeching, and thus more healing, when I am already above 75% health (in a relatively good state)?

No comment on the off hand skills, as those are more condition centered. Although, it does strikes me weird and hard to balance/design to have a weapon that is power based in main hand and condition based in off hand. Either the identity of the weapon should be reworked more consistent and better clarified, or the weapon based trait should be just scrapped off.

Comments

  • LucianDK.8615LucianDK.8615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Well bleeding is a conditional for D2 to improve in damage or healing. But yes, I wholly agree it has seriously fallen by the wayside compared to the longer ranged Axe, which relies on the much more effective vulnerability condition. Which is stacked so much more efficiently.
    And it was a fairly recent nerf to dagger movement speed use:
    October 02, 2018
    Quickening Thirst
    This trait no longer grants movement speed when the necromancer is using a dagger. It now grants increased movement speed when the necromancer's health is above 75%
    Speculation, it clashed too much with Signet of the Locust that increases movement with 25% as baseline passive.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Well, the developpers are to inspired by the necromancer's thematic, they tend to overdo it.
    From their's and some players' point of view (not mine) it was a "buff" because you no longer needed to wield a dagger in order to gain the increased movement speed.
    I agree that it would be better to have the CD decreased when health is below the treshold instead of above. Some kind of emergency response when in trouble, having the thirst kick in when your blood pressure turn low.

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 13, 2019

    @Virtuality.8351 said:

    Quickening Thirst (Major Adept of Blood Magic Specialization)
    Increases movement speed while above the health threshold. Dagger skills recharge faster if activated while above the health threshold.

    Health Threshold: 75%
    Movement Speed Increase: 25%
    Recharge Reduced: 33%

    First of all, why am I expected to maintain above 75% health in order to be rewarded, when I am equipped with a weapon that leeches (with skill #2)? By the choice of weapon, it already means that I expect to see potentially overwhelming damage and aim to counter that, however obsolete the weapon skills are.

    A channeled skill is not meant to counter overwhelming damage. The healing just covers the cannel time as you are very vulnerable while channeling.

    Not to mention Dark Pact (#3) even bleeds the character itself, making it even harder to maintain above the threshold.

    Mainhand dagger is a power weapon. On power gear your self-bleeding is so weak that it is compensated by the 20% leech increase it grants.

    Alternately, I could maintain above the threshold by camping in shroud as long as possible, but then, I would also lose access to all my weapon skills, effectively nullifying the reward.

    That trait is for traveling. I don't know what you expect of it.

    Furthermore, what is the point of rewarding me with shorter recharge time for leeching, and thus more healing, when I am already above 75% health (in a relatively good state)?

    Dagger 2 is a damage skill (pretty much the damage of an autoattack rotation at 600 range - not too bad!) and dagger 3 is a utility skill. Both benefit from the reduction. And did you ever consider offhand dagger? I know it's trash, but in fact benefits too.

    Offhand dagger is btw. meant to transfer the self-bleed of dagger 3. I know it's clunky as f... and gimmicky but that's the intention anet had. So you have two options to deal with the self-bleed: either transfer or outheal it - both possible on the dagger weaponset.

    No comment on the off hand skills, as those are more condition centered. Although, it does strikes me weird and hard to balance/design to have a weapon that is power based in main hand and condition based in off hand. Either the identity of the weapon should be reworked more consistent and better clarified, or the weapon based trait should be just scrapped off.

    Nope, you are wrong again. Dagger 4 is a blind and condi transfer (not every condi is a damage condi: chill, cripple, immob, slow...) so the utility is damage type neutral. Dagger 5 is an aoe debuff (weakness) and a bleed source that boosts the direct damage of dagger 2 (again: synergy intention) and is also meant to be an option to trigger the blood bond trait in blood magic (dagger 3: 2 bleeds, dagger 5: 3 bleeds, dodge roll: 2 bleeds ) without the need to run a condi weapon.

    We don't need to talk about the poor design of both mainhand and offhand dagger. It's obvious. But the things you complained about are a different story. They just show a lack of design comprehension.

  • Virtuality.8351Virtuality.8351 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 13, 2019
  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think it should only be a -33% cd with nothing else.

    Te lazla otstra.
    nerf list

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭

    Quickening Thirst makes no sense because why would yu wanna run slower when low on health in order to suck health to replenish it.

    They should make it +25% Movement Speed when wielding Dagger, and an additional 25% Movement Speed when under 75% Health.

    And additionally, they should just make Dagger 2 Life Siphon the main auto attack for dagger, because the melee aspect, while useful for generating lifeforce, is utterly impractical for a scholar profession. (Ele's dagger at least has some sort of range)

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Anchoku.8142Anchoku.8142 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 13, 2019

    Good explanation @KrHome.1920

    Both daggers, war horn, and axe are still fundamentally the same as they were at game release when Necro power builds relied upon (non-damaging) conditions to make up for lower damage or small range.

    The condi components have not kept up very well with the creep in condi clear, boon generation, and profession sustain.

    Edit
    The daggers and WH are supposed to counter mobility skills and support melee. That much seems clear from the skill types and condition selection.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 13, 2019

    It might be weird but it can't get better than the #3 and #2 combo followed up with a condi transfer or convert. If you compare the healing with the damage from the selfbleed, the ratio is strongly in favour of running it and the self bleed is of almost no concern.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭

    My proposal :

    Quickening Thirst gives bonus movespeed when under 75% health which doubles when at 50% or below.

    Additionally, each hit from Dagger 1 will inflict Bleeding

    Dagger 1 auto changed to a 400 range Life Siphon.

    Dagger 3 changed to consume all the stacks of Bleeding on a foe and deal more damage based on stacks, and then immobalize.

    Idk for Dagger 2.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    My proposal :

    Quickening Thirst gives bonus movespeed when under 75% health which doubles when at 50% or below.

    This would make the trait anti synergistic with the weapon but also the traitline the weapon is working with.

    Additionally, each hit from Dagger 1 will inflict Bleeding

    No matter how many times this is suggested it shouldn't and likely wont happen.

    Dagger 1 auto changed to a 400 range Life Siphon.

    Dagger one and dagger two won't be very different. This also causes crossover with other weapons.

    Dagger 3 changed to consume all the stacks of Bleeding on a foe and deal more damage based on stacks, and then immobalize.

    Because this would consume other people stacks this won't happen.

    As a whole these ideas are unrealistic.

  • Lahmia.2193Lahmia.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'd rather it stay as it is. Changing to below 75% would just ruin any out of combat usefulness it has, unless it were to grant a staggered bonus instead like Last Rites.

    "Surrender and serve me in life, or die and slave for me in death."

  • @Lahmia.2193 said:
    I'd rather it stay as it is. Changing to below 75% would just ruin any out of combat usefulness it has, unless it were to grant a staggered bonus instead like Last Rites.

    I vote staggered bonus, then.

    Regardless, the dagger cooldown reduction should be on skills activated under 75% health, not over.

    Plague Signet is the only skill in the game that is worse when traited.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 16, 2019

    @Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

    @Lahmia.2193 said:
    I'd rather it stay as it is. Changing to below 75% would just ruin any out of combat usefulness it has, unless it were to grant a staggered bonus instead like Last Rites.

    I vote staggered bonus, then.

    Regardless, the dagger cooldown reduction should be on skills activated under 75% health, not over.

    Again, very anti synergistic with dagger and blood magic as a whole.

  • LucianDK.8615LucianDK.8615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    On another note regarding Dagger mh. How does it stack up vs Greatsword? I vaguely recall that it was considered an alternative to GS in the past, or am I mistaken?
    The LF generation does seem to be noticeably higher and faster.

  • Methuselah.4376Methuselah.4376 Member ✭✭✭

    @LucianDK.8615 said:
    On another note regarding Dagger mh. How does it stack up vs Greatsword? I vaguely recall that it was considered an alternative to GS in the past, or am I mistaken?
    The LF generation does seem to be noticeably higher and faster.

    It used to be the main damage dealer above 50% once GS skills are used but that is no longer the case. Dagger main hand has fallen behind as a power weapon. Slow as it is, GS hits much harder and offers more dps skills.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Methuselah.4376 said:

    @LucianDK.8615 said:
    On another note regarding Dagger mh. How does it stack up vs Greatsword? I vaguely recall that it was considered an alternative to GS in the past, or am I mistaken?
    The LF generation does seem to be noticeably higher and faster.

    It used to be the main damage dealer above 50% once GS skills are used but that is no longer the case. Dagger main hand has fallen behind as a power weapon. Slow as it is, GS hits much harder and offers more dps skills.

    Its design has been changed. It likely won't ever do anywhere near as much damage as GS.

  • Methuselah.4376Methuselah.4376 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Methuselah.4376 said:

    @LucianDK.8615 said:
    On another note regarding Dagger mh. How does it stack up vs Greatsword? I vaguely recall that it was considered an alternative to GS in the past, or am I mistaken?
    The LF generation does seem to be noticeably higher and faster.

    It used to be the main damage dealer above 50% once GS skills are used but that is no longer the case. Dagger main hand has fallen behind as a power weapon. Slow as it is, GS hits much harder and offers more dps skills.

    Its design has been changed. It likely won't ever do anywhere near as much damage as GS.

    Aye. It's only real use as a power weapon is on core....which is a laughable thing in end game content. I only use dagger on my support scourge for LF generation.

  • @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

    @Lahmia.2193 said:
    I'd rather it stay as it is. Changing to below 75% would just ruin any out of combat usefulness it has, unless it were to grant a staggered bonus instead like Last Rites.

    I vote staggered bonus, then.

    Regardless, the dagger cooldown reduction should be on skills activated under 75% health, not over.

    Again, very anti synergistic with dagger and blood magic as a whole.

    How is it anti-synergistic? You're not going to activate Life Siphon when your health is high. You want it available more often when your health is low. Same with condition transfer on Deathly Swarm. When your health is high, you can afford to soak a bit more. When it's low, you need those off of you ASAP. Dark Pact and Enfeebling Blood don't change use depending on your health level, so any threshold works there.

    If anything, having the cooldown reduction happening above 75% is anti-synergistic with daggers.

    Plague Signet is the only skill in the game that is worse when traited.

  • Lahmia.2193Lahmia.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

    @Lahmia.2193 said:
    I'd rather it stay as it is. Changing to below 75% would just ruin any out of combat usefulness it has, unless it were to grant a staggered bonus instead like Last Rites.

    I vote staggered bonus, then.

    Regardless, the dagger cooldown reduction should be on skills activated under 75% health, not over.

    Again, very anti synergistic with dagger and blood magic as a whole.

    How is it anti-synergistic? You're not going to activate Life Siphon when your health is high. You want it available more often when your health is low. Same with condition transfer on Deathly Swarm. When your health is high, you can afford to soak a bit more. When it's low, you need those off of you ASAP. Dark Pact and Enfeebling Blood don't change use depending on your health level, so any threshold works there.

    If anything, having the cooldown reduction happening above 75% is anti-synergistic with daggers.

    Currently the reduction is applied at the end of Life Siphon's channel, rather than at the start, so having the reduction below 75% would be anti-synergistic if you were to activate it below 75% but at the end of the channel you were above 75%. But then yes you're right it would be more of a benefit whilst at lower health.
    I guess really it comes down to whether you think Blood Magic should be about rewarding you whilst at high health (since it is about sustain) or whether you think it should be about helping you at low health.

    "Surrender and serve me in life, or die and slave for me in death."

  • @Lahmia.2193 said:

    @Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

    @Lahmia.2193 said:
    I'd rather it stay as it is. Changing to below 75% would just ruin any out of combat usefulness it has, unless it were to grant a staggered bonus instead like Last Rites.

    I vote staggered bonus, then.

    Regardless, the dagger cooldown reduction should be on skills activated under 75% health, not over.

    Again, very anti synergistic with dagger and blood magic as a whole.

    How is it anti-synergistic? You're not going to activate Life Siphon when your health is high. You want it available more often when your health is low. Same with condition transfer on Deathly Swarm. When your health is high, you can afford to soak a bit more. When it's low, you need those off of you ASAP. Dark Pact and Enfeebling Blood don't change use depending on your health level, so any threshold works there.

    If anything, having the cooldown reduction happening above 75% is anti-synergistic with daggers.

    Currently the reduction is applied at the end of Life Siphon's channel, rather than at the start, so having the reduction below 75% would be anti-synergistic if you were to activate it below 75% but at the end of the channel you were above 75%. But then yes you're right it would be more of a benefit whilst at lower health.
    I guess really it comes down to whether you think Blood Magic should be about rewarding you whilst at high health (since it is about sustain) or whether you think it should be about helping you at low health.

    I can never keep it straight when during Life Siphon it applies, since the trait reads "when activated." Above 75% can be argued, since it matters at the end of the cast, but you're usually taking damage during that cast time, so you still finish up below 75% health when using it for sustain.

    Plague Signet is the only skill in the game that is worse when traited.

  • Anchoku.8142Anchoku.8142 Member ✭✭✭✭

    If the first strike in the AA chain stole a boon or inflicted a condition like chill or slow MH dagger's effectiveness might improve. There are a number of small changes to dagger's mechanics that could freshen it. Improving its damage will only go so far because boon generation and condition clearing have changed so much since 2012. When boons and conditions stopped affecting mobility skills, that also affected dagger.

    In PvE, dagger is still light on cleave/AoE, too, resulting is low dps on large hit-box bosses. Increasing the cleave to 3 for all dagger skills and adding a combo finisher would be a great help.

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