Jump to content
  • Sign Up

So now thieves have traps removed we can remove reveal on trap Damage


Karnn.4569

Recommended Posts

Back once upon last year I believe it was all traps had reveal added when triggered this was to stop perma stealth trapper thieves. This had the side effect of completely killing rune of the trapper ranger builds who got useful stealth from the rune but couldn't perma stealth. Now that thieves have had traps removed completely and cannot even use the rune for stealth gain can we please get the knee jerk patch of reveal on trigger removed as its really painful on ranger and still kills off trapper ranger.

This change is a fix to a skill line on a class now that's been removed and is detrimental to builds on other classes as a result.

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Right and that was added to stop perma stealth thieves using traps and spamming caltrops and staying invisible as they weren't attacking themselves and therefore it didn't break stealth its still an issue however more so for ranger builds.

Now traps are removed Thieves dont really have access to do that anymore attacking with weapon skills still reveals.

For example ranger traps usually apply a specific condi if I'm trying to lay more than one trap right after the first while in my few sec of stealth any player with a basic purge which is everyone can hop on my first trap and force reveal me then burst me. This allows an enemy to actively negate the rune I'm using and even use it against me.

Another option is just to make stealth from the rune not effected by trap damage triggers as theif wont be able to trigger the rune anymore anyway. This only applies to damage from traps while in stealth using this rune.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Except that's how the game always was till last year when the change was implemented.I played trap ranger alot and in wvw and pvp mostly pve and wvw and the runes did for all the time they've been in game exactly what I'm asking they return them to now.

When they made the change it was because the only class that could use it and really abuse the rune was thief.They now have traps removed its time to allow us to play the builds we used to on other classes that were screwed up due to a quick fix for thief.

People including myself had fun playing trap ranger up until this change made running traps on ranger so sub par they really aren't viable vs other builds even as a simply fun build.

As for the cheese tactic the game has too much purge so it doesn't work like you imply and traps pulse so targets usually pass through before full condi damage is applied then they simply purge whats left. This also reveals the ranger who btw cant run around in perma stealth anyway so you have to time the traps.

Stealth on trap is more used for escape or positioning as dropping traps takes time and isn't instant so you can drop traps as a smoke screen effect using stealth to run away or circle the target. This utility gets gutted by reveal on trap damage you will have to leave stealth anyway as ranger cannot perma stealth so what happens is the damage reveal ruins the utility of the stealth.

Remember the stealth is only gained from deploying the very thing that shuts it off if triggered as that thing does damage.

This is like every time you put your car in drive your wheels vanish. then putting it in park makes them reappear.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Karnn.4569 said:Right and that was added to stop perma stealth thieves using traps and spamming caltrops and staying invisible as they weren't attacking themselves and therefore it didn't break stealth its still an issue however more so for ranger builds.

Now traps are removed Thieves dont really have access to do that anymore attacking with weapon skills still reveals.

For example ranger traps usually apply a specific condi if I'm trying to lay more than one trap right after the first while in my few sec of stealth any player with a basic purge which is everyone can hop on my first trap and force reveal me then burst me. This allows an enemy to actively negate the rune I'm using and even use it against me.

Another option is just to make stealth from the rune not effected by trap damage triggers as theif wont be able to trigger the rune anymore anyway. This only applies to damage from traps while in stealth using this rune.

All I am saying is that if Rangers were meant to stealth trap, they would've done it regardless with thieves having traps or not.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"runeblade.7514" said:All I am saying is that if Rangers were meant to stealth trap, they would've done it regardless with thieves having traps or not.

When you say "they" you should be more clear.If by "they" you mean Anet then.

If you want to know what caused them to make the changes it was this.https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Thief_-_Ghost_Thiefandhttps://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Thief_-_Condition_Trapper

You can find alot more from 2017 if you google "gw2 perma stealth trapper theif"

This was clearly broken and needed a fix. The change to stop thieves abusing this was a blanket change that effected all traps It was why the change was made it was what the community cried about at the time.

When blanket changes to game functions are made to fix one problem you create more.

If by "they" you mean rangers still play it regardless.

It's not rewarding at all and now the rune punishes players it also cant be used for escape as those chasing you trigger them and run out of them before all pulses hit. This knocks your cover away even if its only 3 seconds for you can get knocked out while placing the next trap which isnt instant.This means your literally bent over placing it as your revealed ready to take it in the Kitten.

I played it last night in WVW It was fun before the changes It is still miserable now.Never in the history of GW2 have I ever heard people yell trapper Ranger OP even with trapper runes.

To that point feel free to Google "gw2 trapper ranger op"

On the other hand Perma stealth thief trapper was OP and was rightly called out On top of traps it had way too many other stealth access means.However the blanket changes made to traps in turn destroyed the runes viability on ranger as we have no other source for stealth other than LB which you dont run in a condi build which is what traps are used in.

Also I main all 3 med classes those are my go tos after the rune changes Trapper ranger was too slow without the stealth working properly on runes and no other stealth in case they were revealed.I was then forced to go play SB I felt SB was cheese coming from trapper ranger what does that tell you. The nerf to theif trapper was warranted but ranger was not.

The reason I bring up trapper runes is traps on theifs are gone and other builds used them properly and I would like to be able to again.Ive been waiting 2 years for a more solid fix to this issue we just got it traps are gone on theif lets make trapper ranger fun again.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Karnn.4569 said:

@"runeblade.7514" said:All I am saying is that if Rangers were meant to stealth trap, they would've done it regardless with thieves having traps or not.

When you say "they" you should be more clear.If by "they" you mean Anet then.

If you want to know what caused them to make the changes it was this.
and

You can find alot more from 2017 if you google "gw2 perma stealth trapper theif"

This was clearly broken and needed a fix. The change to stop thieves abusing this was a blanket change that effected all traps It was why the change was made it was what the community cried about at the time.

When blanket changes to game functions are made to fix one problem you create more.

If by "they" you mean rangers still play it regardless.

It's not rewarding at all and now the rune punishes players it also cant be used for escape as those chasing you trigger them and run out of them before all pulses hit. This knocks your cover away even if its only 3 seconds for you can get knocked out while placing the next trap which isnt instant.This means your literally bent over placing it as your revealed ready to take it in the Kitten.

I played it last night in WVW It was fun before the changes It is still miserable now.Never in the history of GW2 have I ever heard people yell trapper Ranger OP even with trapper runes.

To that point feel free to Google "gw2 trapper ranger op"

On the other hand Perma stealth thief trapper was OP and was rightly called out On top of traps it had way too many other stealth access means.However the blanket changes made to traps in turn destroyed the runes viability on ranger as we have no other source for stealth other than LB which you dont run in a condi build which is what traps are used in.

Also I main all 3 med classes those are my go tos after the rune changes Trapper ranger was too slow without the stealth working properly on runes and no other stealth in case they were revealed.I was then forced to go play SB I felt SB was cheese coming from trapper ranger what does that tell you. The nerf to theif trapper was warranted but ranger was not.

The reason I bring up trapper runes is traps on theifs are gone and other builds used them properly and I would like to be able to again.Ive been waiting 2 years for a more solid fix to this issue we just got it traps are gone on theif lets make trapper ranger fun again.

Again, if ANet intended rangers to have perma stealth on traps, they would've done it regardless of thieves having access to traps or not. Maybe that clears up for you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@runeblade.7514 said:

Again, if ANet intended rangers to have perma stealth on traps, they would've done it regardless of thieves having access to traps or not. Maybe that clears up for you.

Just to point out, anet has been known to make changes that dont make much sense from time to time, and certainly about bigger things than a rune changed years ago to fix a problem with one class, regardless of if it ruined builds for another.

The only way to make them think about changing stuff from years ago is to point out changes that affect those changes, as the OP is doing. Perhaps they want to keep it that way, perhaps not, we -dont- know if they even thought about it, we dont know if they are already considering it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@runeblade.7514 said:Again, if ANet intended rangers to have perma stealth on traps, they would've done it regardless of thieves having access to traps or not. Maybe that clears up for you.

Rangers never had perma stealth on traps so not really.

The lowering of stealth on the runes to 3 sec is also fine no issues with that either.I like the super speed and it makes the 3 sec of stealth more useful than 4 sec without it.

Even chaining traps at 4 sec we never had perma stealth on ranger. Thief did because they had alot of other access to stealth they could combo on top of the rune hence why it was broken.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Karnn.4569 said:

@runeblade.7514 said:Again, if ANet intended rangers to have perma stealth on traps, they would've done it regardless of thieves having access to traps or not. Maybe that clears up for you.

Rangers never had perma stealth on traps so not really.

The lowering of stealth on the runes to 3 sec is also fine no issues with that either.I like the super speed and it makes the 3 sec of stealth more useful than 4 sec without it.

Even chaining traps at 4 sec we never had perma stealth on ranger. Thief did because they had alot of other access to stealth they could combo on top of the rune hence why it was broken.

Ok then.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Dante.1763 said:

Just to point out, anet has been known to make changes that dont make much sense from time to time, and certainly about bigger things than a rune changed years ago to fix a problem with one class, regardless of if it ruined builds for another.

The only way to make them think about changing stuff from years ago is to point out changes that affect those changes, as the OP is doing. Perhaps they want to keep it that way, perhaps not, we -dont- know if they even thought about it, we dont know if they are already considering it.

Right This wasn't meant to be a debate as the builds were solid but never OP I was asking a sincere question if now that the problem the change was meant to solve is no more if we can make it so builds inadvertently harmed by the change can now be returned to normalcy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Ben K.6238 said:Keeping stealth trap rangers non-viable is also a good thing. There are other condi ranger builds that work nicely without abusing stealth.

Its viable still just the rune is self defeating and thus not something it should be. Also the stealth builds are glass sure I could condi perma protect regen bunker But that's actually cheese.If you time a fight with a trapper ranger you can 1 burst them when they have to leave the stealth provided by traps as stealth has a downtime.

Mesmer clones backstab perma stealth these are cheese. A pure glass condi build that requires timing and thought not so much.Remember your glass and have to engage in short bow ranges with condis you better know what your doing.You can get killed in stealth with aoe like DE and have less uptime to make use of.Also its fun to troll deadeyes running away once marked in stealth leaving their range. This is still doable.

This made them fun counter play to DE in the open witch is badly needed.

Could you bunker trapper yes however due to pulses on traps your still better slotting something else that benefits your sustain more as your damage becomes laughable.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Ben K.6238 said:Changing the rune would be a good idea. There is, indeed, not much point having one that counters itself.

One option I posted earlier was to make stealth from the rune not effected by trap damage triggers.This only applies to damage from traps while in stealth using this rune.Any other stealth it doesn't effect just stealth applied by the rune This would fix the issue of dropping a trap and being booted from stealth by a trigger.All other damage delt from stealth would drop the stealth like normal.

As it is now for example in pve you know mobs will still attack after stealthing for abit sometimes if you drop a trap trying to evade and one ambient critter triggers it or a single pocket raptor pop your out of stealth getting beamed again.

I know alot of people hate stealth but this isnt even on par with the clones plus evade of mesmers or perma stealth of theif or Daredevil evade spam and never was It was simply a fun alternate way to play the class.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think I prefer the rune replacement option. From a gameplay point of view, stealth is currently a tactical option that allows you to become invisible for a short duration, with the tradeoff that it only lasts until you attack your target. It's a bit dubious as it is, but if we start poking holes in the system so you can land your damage skills while invisible, it becomes obnoxious.

The stealth from the trapper runes should just be replaced with something a bit more sensible. If it's to promote an evasive sort of build, vigour and superspeed might work.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Ben K.6238 said:I think I prefer the rune replacement option. From a gameplay point of view, stealth is currently a tactical option that allows you to become invisible for a short duration, with the tradeoff that it only lasts until you attack your target. It's a bit dubious as it is, but if we start poking holes in the system so you can land your damage skills while invisible, it becomes obnoxious.

The stealth from the trapper runes should just be replaced with something a bit more sensible. If it's to promote an evasive sort of build, vigour and superspeed might work.

Except that doesn't work as placing the traps is far too slow it locks you in an animation for a short duration If you want to go this route were talking a whole trap revamp make them instant or thrown make them do all stacks applied at once not in pulses. As vigor does you no good when locked in a animation and most times your placing you have full stamina any way this is way more work.

Also you dont stay invisible anyway each trap is 3 sec of stealth that's using all 4 trap skills gives 12 sec of stealth. you then cannot acquire another 12 sec rotation for a fair time as the traps must all reset. This lowers you to short bursts of 3 sec in combat. Stealth in this way is reasonable it requires timing. It was also used this way for a very long time by rangers and no one ever took issue with it.

Ive also been playing trapper ranger anyway and yet to see a massive thread on it being OP since the release of trapper runes which have been used this way with even 4 sec of stealth since added in September 09, 2014. They received the stealth drop to 3 sec in 2015.

Where thieves have 12 sec on 1 skill and the new smokescreen blast can give another 12 sec. this still leaves a stealth heal for 6 sec open and another utility plus a stealth elite.

Yea that's a lot of stealth. Also they can 1-2 shot backstab you. Don't gotta wait for you to trip a trap or leave stealth just walk up and drop you.

I also want to point out people have been using this rune on ranger builds around you for 5 years. Why when I bring up I would like something that is annoying with it fixed does everyone notice us now and say it needs removed?

Yea seems alot of stealth bias from theif abuse is carrying over here and debating that is not the point of this thread.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Ben K.6238" said:"It's fine because something else abuses this even more" is a pretty good way to end up with power creep and horrible gameplay.

Its been used for 5 years by ranger in every game mode. Where are the complaints? there are none! None in 5 years! Why? because using it as intended is not abuse! And it was never META even having some stealth. "which shows stealth can be done right btw"

So all we've concluded here is you hate all things stealth and your unfamiliar with whats going on around you in game for the last 5 years.That last part we cant blame you for as people tend not to notice things that aren't problematic, so acting like its an issue now makes a redundant argument look more redundant.There hasn't been power creep with this rune in all of those 5 years so your last point is also moot.That or all things can one day possibly be abused therefore Anet must dress us all in bubble wrap and give us pool noodles so no ones feelings are ever hurt again.

The point of the thread was not the Rune but how a change to fix thief abuse has had some negative impact on users who use the rune in other class builds that use it reasonably. It can now be adjusted so those players dont need to have that pitfall in those builds.

The rune still functions fine.Its the reveal on trap damage that can be abused by an opponent to the detriment of the player trying to utilize the runes short bursts of stealth.This is due to 2 factors traps are under powered due to pulses and the sheer amount of purge now in game.This allows players to negate the stealth given by hopping through a trap and purging then punching you in the face.

If we could throw traps it would help as we could place them somewhere someone chasing us wouldn't trigger it if trying to evade.Problem here is anything sets em off a bunny wanders into it as you try to escape and blam pants on head. Throwing it was useless.

Also scourge 2.0 eeewwwwww throwing traps.

Easiest fix to the issue so far I can think of is what I mentioned above.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Karnn.4569" said:So all we've concluded here is you hate all things stealth and your unfamiliar with whats going on around you in game for the last 5 years.That last part we cant blame you for as people tend not to notice things that aren't problematic, so acting like its an issue now makes a redundant argument look more redundant.There hasn't been power creep with this rune in all of those 5 years so your last point is also moot.That or all things can one day possibly be abused therefore Anet must dress us all in bubble wrap and give us pool noodles so no ones feelings are ever hurt again.

Guilty on the stealth thing - I main mesmer and still think stealth was a bad idea for GW2. If it couldn't be used as a combat mechanic I'd be more open to it.

But no, I'm quite familiar with trapper rangers. I used to run one in 2013 before this rune existed. They were borderline rubbish then, and are not much better now. That still doesn't mean turning a mediocre build into an annoying mediocre build is a good idea. Troll builds don't bring anything worthwhile to PvP gameplay.

And my last point is not moot if the suggestion is that there "hasn't been power creep with this rune" so let's go add some.

We already have thieves and mesmers that can set up kills while invisible, which is poor game design and I'd be happy to see it reconsidered. We don't need to add trapper rangers and dragonhunters to the can-kill-while-invisible list just because thieves don't have traps anymore and rangers aren't going to be amazing at it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Karnn.4569" said:Back once upon last year I believe it was all traps had reveal added when triggered this was to stop perma stealth trapper thieves. This had the side effect of completely killing rune of the trapper ranger builds who got useful stealth from the rune but couldn't perma stealth. Now that thieves have had traps removed completely and cannot even use the rune for stealth gain can we please get the knee jerk patch of reveal on trigger removed as its really painful on ranger and still kills off trapper ranger.You may not know this, but all this "knee jerk patch" did was to fix the unintentional inconsistency in traps and stealth interaction. The reason why traps didn't reveal originally was not because it was planned so. Reveal from the beginning was meant to trigger on all damage. No, the reason for that was much simpler - the source of damage for traps was not the player, but the trap gizmo. When devs introduced reveal mechanic, they overlooked that, so, when it was eventually brought to their attention (in a very spectacular way), they simply corrected that omission. If anything, it took them too long to do that. Damaging while not breaking stealth should never have happened in the first place.

This change is a fix to a skill line on a class now that's been removed and is detrimental to builds on other classes as a result.And that's where you're wrong. And because you're wrong, your conclusion is also wrong. The original reason for that fix still exists unchanged - and that means there's no basis to revert that change.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Astralporing.1957" said:You may not know this, but all this "knee jerk patch" did was to fix the unintentional inconsistency in traps and stealth interaction. The reason why traps didn't reveal originally was not because it was planned so. Reveal from the beginning was meant to trigger on all damage. No, the reason for that was much simpler - the source of damage for traps was not the player, but the trap gizmo. When devs introduced reveal mechanic, they overlooked that, so, when it was eventually brought to their attention (in a very spectacular way), they simply corrected that omission. If anything, it took them too long to do that. Damaging while not breaking stealth should never have happened in the first place.

Well aware yet they added a rune that worked the way stealth traps worked before such omission and therefore need to still fix the issue.

This change is a fix to a skill line on a class now that's been removed and is detrimental to builds on other classes as a result.And that's where you're wrong. And because you're wrong, your conclusion is also wrong. The original reason for that fix still exists unchanged - and that means there's no basis to revert that change.

Except once you build other game mechanics around your "mistake" you then create more mistakes when you decide what you considered "correct enough to build gear around" is now a "mistake" and then correct it.

In short mistakes if left in a game long enough that content is built around its current function it generally isn't considered a mistake any more.Its current function is being used as a basis to make content in this case runes.

If it is later changed and declared a mistake leaves alot of questions about wtf is going on and still leaves my issue unsolved and is still a clear issue due to the changes.

Which also means my conclusion that this is a problem needing fixed is still correct.

Thank you

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...