Where did the humans come from!

[sinsrock.1702]

AM i the ONLY person wondering where the heck we all came from, i mean for being one of the largest races in Tyria at one point to where we are now and arguably still one of the largest i would say humans have had some of the most impact on all of Tyria but seriously where did we come from lol it is said that we where brought here but literally nothing i search comes up, id honestly be completely okay if they had an entire Living world not doing the story in order to explain some of the unanswered questions from gw1 and gw2 more back story on the 6 or the 5 now, but there is sooooo much i feel Anet has just kind of not explained and say something like oh they went to the mists and time and space doesn't even truly exist there. IDK i just WANT ANSWERS :P jk jk but seriously anyone have an idea on this or at least if we will ever know ?

[Randulf.7614]

The Gods brought them another World which I believe had suffered a catastrophe big enough to require the saving of the race. That is it as far as I know.

I can certainly understand the interest, but for me it is a mystery that I kind of like.

Unless the Gods return and reveal it or some artifact or scroll previously unknown to us with the info appears, I think this is destined to remain a mystery.

It is also not really relevant to the gw2 story, so it doesn’t surprise me to see it permanently unanswered.

[adormtil.1605]

Considering this world is one dragon away from going boom it might be relevant to know where humans came from to find another world to live.

[sinsrock.1702]

yea idk, i played gw1 for 14 years lol and its just like i want some justification ahahah i guess i could make my own story about it thats non cannon tho aha that could be a fun project, but yea idk its just one of the most thriving race and you cant really go anywhere without seeing a human and correct me if im wrong but arnt most NPC,s that are merchants, etc human? i know there are some charr but i dont think there are many norn, slyv, and asura,

[ugrakarma.9416]

my theory is that is related to balthazar carrying his father head.

perhaps the original world of humans was destroyed by war spurred on by balthazar vs his father? the gods instead of confronting him(or them), just had leave with some "peaceful humans" to rebuild new world? perhaps the father(of balthazar) was bad guy and balthazar the "good guy", them defeating him, he become the new god of war?

[sinsrock.1702]

@"ugrakarma.9416" said:my theory is that is related to balthazar carrying his father head.

perhaps the original world of humans was destroyed by war spurred on by balthazar vs his father? the gods instead of confronting him(or them), just had leave with some "peaceful humans" to rebuild new world? perhaps the father(of balthazar) was bad guy and balthazar the "good guy", them defeating him, he become the new god of war?

i mean maybe but it does seem that balthazar all along had intentions of humans becoming the most dominant race and even encouraged war so idk about "peaceful"

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

We know nothing of where humanity came from beyond "another world." And most likely it'll remain that way (and no, you're not the only one interested in knowing).

What little we can theorize about the human homeworld comes solely from the Orrian History Scrolls. The following lines are the ones most telling:

She [Dwayna] chose Tyria and brought with her those who would make this world a paradise.

Dwayna came to Tyria seeking "a paradise" for the humans she brought. This implies that she and those she brought were escaping some sort of problems - as one would not leave paradise to make a paradise.

Balthazar came in fire and wrath, carrying the head of his father

A lot of people instantly jump to the idea that Balthazar killed his father. But there are many ways to interpret this line. Maybe he was indeed carrying his father's head in brutal victory. But perhaps he was carrying it out of loss, that a father he loved had been killed. Different cultures act with loss different ways, and we don't know how these ancient humans dealt with it (let alone whatever Balthazar was before godhood).

The only thing that's clear is: Balthazar's father died by unknown means, and for unknown reasons Balthazar decided to bring his father's head.

It was he [balthazar] who claimed Tyria for humanity; he who said the other races would be easy to defeat.

Again, a lot of people take this to mean that Balthazar was a brutal and battle-loving god. Certainly, PoF doesn't make a good counter argument, but that doesn't fit his GW1 persona, and while we don't meet Balthazar personally in GW1, we meet those who did. So unless those people lied, then Balthazar once was a good person. If we add this line in context to Dwayna's and Melandru's (next), and ignore the butchering of Balthazar's pre-imprisonment persona that was Facing the Truth, then we can interpret this line in a different light: Balthazar believed the way to a better world was by having it unified under a single force (in this case, humanity). Or, alternatively, Balthazar wanted peace for humanity (what Dwayna and Melandru wanted) but wanted it via human domination. "Those who rule will not suffer" kind of mentality.

If he had realized he was wrong about the other races being easy to defeat (he wasn't that far off, given that humanity displaced many races over the centuries), he might not have had taken such a route.

Side note: It remains unclear whether Balthazar's father was a mortal, demigod, or god, however, given how Abaddon and Balthazar's bodies both break apart upon death and Balthazar's father retains a head, it seems highly probable that Balthazar's father was a mortal. Because of this, it seems very unlikely to me that there was an actual conflict between Balthazar and his father - unless said father was akin to Caudecus or Joko, and was more of a scheming villain than a battle villain - after all, how could a mere mortal stand up to a full fledged and free god (unlike the Commander who had only fought with a demigod, or the Hero who fought a chained god).

She [Melandru] urged peace with the races already present on this world, but her advice was not heeded. When she saw destruction, she brought creation. Where she saw anger, she grew love. With this, Melandru prepared for a future she knew would be troubled.

This one lines up alongside Dwayna's "searching for paradise". Melandru's method of wanting a "paradise" however differed - she sought community with other races. She did so because she knew where the other route would lead, a troubled future. Since she's no goddess of knowledge, it's likely she knew this from personal experience. As the eldest of the gods, it's likely that she had witnessed Balthazar's behavior before, and knew that he was wrong in his beliefs, and knew what the outcome would be based on past experience.

While the other gods focused on building Arah and beginning a new future, Lyssa gave them joy and helped them forget the past.

What's curious here is that who the "them" is, isn't clear. Many take it to mean humanity - since there are no (known to player) records of pre-Tyria humanity. But the first part of the sentence focuses on the gods. Which suggests that the ones Lyssa helped forget the past was, in fact, the other gods.

This is rather curious alongside the Melandru bit, since if Melandru was made to forget, how could she know from experience where things would lead taking a hostility route? Answer would be that Lyssa helping "them" forget is part of "but her advice was not heeded", and Melandru was either effectively forced to agree with the rest (Dwayna perhaps as well), or while Melandru couldn't remember, her instincts told her to go against it. Given that the forgetting occurred while Arah was being built by the gods, it's probable that the Melandru bit of urging peace came before Lyssa helping others forget.

But the main thing is that if Lyssa helped to bring them joy by forgetting the past, then the past was a painful thing to remember. Bad things happened, reinforced.

Among them was Abaddon—once secret-keeper, now betrayer. How you have fallen from the glorious days of old. What passed beyond in the Mists, only you remember.

But of all the gods, Lyssa did not or could not make Abaddon forget. Even Lyssa herself doesn't remember (if she ever did, there's implication through lack of evidence that Lyssa may be Tyrian-born like Grenth). It might even be possible that this remembrance is part of why Abaddon fell from grace, though that's heavy speculation. What's more clear, though, is that Abaddon's actions would be influenced by the knowledge of the past far more than the other gods (after the building of Arah at least), which means Abaddon's desire to spread magic, while the other gods' lack of such, may be coming from the conflict they escaped from.

Overall, everything here suggests some sort of calamity that the Six were escaping - if it were a simple war, then their direct involvement could have solved things. The fact that a god even lost a parent in the war, implies either that the gods' power was insufficient to solve the issue, or it was the cause of the issue. The latter seems less likely to me, given that they only entered a non-interaction after Abaddon's conflict. Implying that the whole "gods interacting causes only destruction" was realized after arriving on Tyria (this in turn means that either a) the gods didn't try to stop the conflict of the previous world, or b) the gods tried, failed, and didn't notice their attempts made things worse).

Would have been interesting if Dhuum's involvement in the early days of humanity on Tyria was known though. All we really have is why he was overthrown and his post-imprisonment plans. No indication if he, like Abaddon, had fallen from grace and was once a good god of death, or if he was always evil but tolerable.

[adormtil.1605]

About the human gods I think some of them are original gods like Dhuum and some are humans who got powers from original gods by killing them or so. I do not think Blathazar is an original god since he has an father and an brother I think he was an human but an before Tyria human who became an god. What if there was an war between the post Tyria humans who I think where demigod level and the gods originals ones and demigod ones who got the power of an god. The post Tyria humans drove the gods and their followers out and the gods to prevent another event like in their original world modified their followers to not be demigod level and not be strong enough to challenge them.

[Perfect.1359]

I think they keep it vague for a reason. So that the players can imagine humans coming to Tyria from any place they want.

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

@sinsrock.1702 said:yea idk, i played gw1 for 14 years lol and its just like i want some justification ahahah i guess i could make my own story about it thats non cannon tho aha that could be a fun project, but yea idk its just one of the most thriving race and you cant really go anywhere without seeing a human and correct me if im wrong but arnt most NPC,s that are merchants, etc human? i know there are some charr but i dont think there are many norn, slyv, and asura,

Not really. For the most part, merchants come from whatever race is most prevalent in that given spot. It's just that humans have more spots (Kryta, Ebonhawke, Amnoon, Elona) than any other race so far.

[Dawdler.8521]

For some reason I've always considered the origin story of humans on Tyria to be somewhat Stargate inspired... "Gods" bringing humans to other worlds.

[Dayra.7405]

@Randulf.7614 said:The Gods brought them another World which I believe had suffered a catastrophe big enough to require the saving of the race. That is it as far as I know.

We know where Humans developed: Earth. And that we are on the best way of making Earth uninhabitable is also well known.So Gods brought the remaning humans from Devastated-Earth to Tyria for a 2nd chance.Sounds like the best chance humans have to survive the next centuries to me.

[Randulf.7614]

@Dayra.7405 said:

@Randulf.7614 said:The Gods brought them another World which I believe had suffered a catastrophe big enough to require the saving of the race. That is it as far as I know.

We know where Humans developed: Earth. And that we are on the best way of making Earth uninhabitable is also well known.So Gods brought the remaning humans from Devastated-Earth to Tyria for a 2nd chance.Sounds like the best chance humans have to survive the next centuries to me.

I’ll be sure to keep an eye out for a blindingly beautiful blue skinned woman who will lead me to a new paradise

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Dayra.7405 said:

@Randulf.7614 said:The Gods brought them another World which I believe had suffered a catastrophe big enough to require the saving of the race. That is it as far as I know.

We know where Humans developed: Earth. And that we are on the best way of making Earth uninhabitable is also well known.So Gods brought the remaning humans from Devastated-Earth to Tyria for a 2nd chance.Sounds like the best chance humans have to survive the next centuries to me.

Humans came to Tyria with Bronze Age level equipment and knowledge. Doesn't sound like Earth has six world-shifting magical gods and is still in the Bronze Age to me.

[Dayra.7405]

Do you think we keep current (or future) civilization and technological level when we devastated earth?

I think it was Einstein who said something like: I am unable to predict which weapons will be used in 3rd WW,But I am quite sure the wars after it will be fought with sticks and stones.

Getting such gods (or getting their interesting) in time is definitely more difficult :(

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

Technology has advanced to a point that if people were to leave through some magical portal, guns and more basic technology would still be taken with them.

It has to be one hell of an apocalyptic scenario to destroy technology to the point of bringing folks back to the Bronze Age. Since it would mean the total and complete loss of even non-gas or electrical devices and, far more importantly, knowledge. And to do so before fleeing the planet, would imply not one but two apocalyptic scenarios. One to reset technology and install magic, and a second to force freeing through magic. Because if one were to argue the portal Dwayna used was technology instead of magic, then that would mean technology had not reset, and humanity would be bringing guns, tanks, cars, and battery-operated radios, solar panels, and a whole bunch of other stuff that is non-existent in Tyria.

Most importantly, they would have brought a writing system, which the first humans on Tyria lacked. No apocalyptic scenario results in losing the knowledge of how to write unless everyone over the age of 8 (or more likely, 5) dies off in it.

[Dayra.7405]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:losing the knowledge of how to write unless everyone over the age of 8 (or more likely, 5) dies off in it.

The most likely loss of reading/writing comes from further advance of computer technology. Why should we learn physical reading/writing (beside some Historians), if computer are able to understand, store, write, repeat, read, transmit, translate spoken language or a bit later even our thoughts.

And the world-wide productions chains are a quite shaky thing. Do you know how to produce any of our items of daily use out of nature with tools in your possession? Printed encyclopedia become rare nowadays.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

Reading text on a computer screen is still being capable of reading, and knowing what letters and words look like is still being able to write. There will never become a point where text is eradicated due to technology, unless we advance to the point of a cybernetic race where all communications, even long distance, are transmitted and stored as thoughts. The reason for this is because of the differentiating learning styles. Specifically, visual learners who remember best by seeing rather than hearing or doing. A world where "computers have advanced so far that all communication and knowledge is stored through spoken language" is impossible because a significant of the human race does not remember will through aural or verbal learning.

And if technology advances to a point where computers transmits knowledge and communication as thoughts, then we as a race are no longer fully biological, by a race of cyborgs, which would travel with us to this new world. And because we would be cyborgs, the knowledge of histories would be stored perfectly within the cybernetic components of the body, thus be perfectly retainable even without the appropriate technology, as that knowledge would also contain how to recreate that technology.

A world of cyborgs facing an apocalyptic scenario is by far less likely to lose all technology than we are right now.

And even if we hit this miraculous sci-fi world of total species cybernetics, the chances of it resulting in the total and utter destruction of written languages is beyond unlikely due to aforementioned learning styles, as well as hobbyists, tradition, cultural views, and purists. Humanity is gullible and will, within a year, become convinced of things if thrown at your face long enough (corporations with their advertisements in America is proof of this), but humanity in its entirety, even in its majority, will never adhere to one singular way of life.

A world where everyone has become so far advanced in cybernetics that writing is a non-existent thing, is extremely unlikely to occur globally or even nationally. And if it hadn't become a national thing, then it wouldn't be lost through the transference of worlds via magical portal device.

[ugrakarma.9416]

coincidentally theres a mysterious historical event called the "bronze age collapse" ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Bronze_Age_collapse ) but I don't think it inspired anything in GW2 lore.

[Dawdler.8521]

@"ugrakarma.9416" said:coincidentally theres a mysterious historical event called the "bronze age collapse" ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Bronze_Age_collapse ) but I don't think it inspired anything in GW2 lore.Even Stargate is more likely, lol.

Besides, everyone knows that the collapse was just the surviving Atlanteans from when the southern mediterranian sea upended and flooded Sahara, only the bare rings of Atlantis remain at what is now the Richat.

Right? :P

[Mystiker.4031]

I know it! from the Stork

[Danikat.8537]

This might end up being one of the things we never get to find out. Wherever humanity came from and however they got here they don't appear to have brought any records with them and so far the gods don't seem to consider it necessary to discuss it. Of course everything in the game is ultimately subject to what Anet wants to tell us and that depends on the storylines they want to create, so they could bring that information into the game at any time, but I suspect it's been deliberately left mysterious so far.

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

While the other gods focused on building Arah and beginning a new future, Lyssa gave them joy and helped them forget the past.

What's curious here is that who the "them" is, isn't clear. Many take it to mean humanity - since there are no (known to player) records of pre-Tyria humanity. But the first part of the sentence focuses on the gods. Which suggests that the ones Lyssa helped forget the past was, in fact, the other gods.

This is rather curious alongside the Melandru bit, since if Melandru was made to forget, how could she know from experience where things would lead taking a hostility route? Answer would be that Lyssa helping "them" forget is part of "but her advice was not heeded", and Melandru was either effectively forced to agree with the rest (Dwayna perhaps as well), or while Melandru couldn't remember, her instincts told her to go against it. Given that the forgetting occurred while Arah was being built by the gods, it's probable that the Melandru bit of urging peace came before Lyssa helping others forget.

But the main thing is that if Lyssa helped to bring them joy by forgetting the past, then the past was a painful thing to remember. Bad things happened, reinforced.

I think you might be taking that a bit too literally. I read it more as she helped them to move on from it and stop thinking about how much it hurt, rather than literally forgetting it ever happened. Like when someone has a bad day and a friend offers to cheer them up to help them 'forget all about it' - they don't mean the person won't remember it happened at all, just that it won't be at the forefront of their mind all the time.

Which still fits with the part about Abaddon - when you move on from something and start to forget how you really felt in the moment it can be difficult to remember exactly why you made the decisions you did. And equally if you refuse to move on and fixate on how terrible it felt that can change your perception too.

@adormtil.1605 said:About the human gods I think some of them are original gods like Dhuum and some are humans who got powers from original gods by killing them or so. I do not think Blathazar is an original god since he has an father and an brother I think he was an human but an before Tyria human who became an god. What if there was an war between the post Tyria humans who I think where demigod level and the gods originals ones and demigod ones who got the power of an god. The post Tyria humans drove the gods and their followers out and the gods to prevent another event like in their original world modified their followers to not be demigod level and not be strong enough to challenge them.

Don't forget Dwayna, who as far as we know has always been a god, had a son with a mortal man who then became a god (Grenth). So having a father and a brother doesn't necessarily mean Balthazar used to be mortal. (This mirrors some real life religions where it was fairly common for gods to have families, either with other gods, with humans or with all kinds of other creatures.)

On the other hand it's possible all the gods used to be human, or mortals of some sort. We know humans can become gods by absorbing their power and we know at least some of the gods had predecessors so it could all go back to humans who became gods.

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Technology has advanced to a point that if people were to leave through some magical portal, guns and more basic technology would still be taken with them.

It has to be one hell of an apocalyptic scenario to destroy technology to the point of bringing folks back to the Bronze Age. Since it would mean the total and complete loss of even non-gas or electrical devices and, far more importantly, knowledge. And to do so before fleeing the planet, would imply not one but two apocalyptic scenarios. One to reset technology and install magic, and a second to force freeing through magic. Because if one were to argue the portal Dwayna used was technology instead of magic, then that would mean technology had not reset, and humanity would be bringing guns, tanks, cars, and battery-operated radios, solar panels, and a whole bunch of other stuff that is non-existent in Tyria.

Most importantly, they would have brought a writing system, which the first humans on Tyria lacked. No apocalyptic scenario results in losing the knowledge of how to write unless everyone over the age of 8 (or more likely, 5) dies off in it.

The Shannara series isn't far off. That's set in a 'post-post-apocalyptic' world where modern day (or near future) civilisation was devastated in a series of nuclear wars and the resulting radiation mutated most humans and other creatures into new forms, which in some cases lead to their latent and forgotten magical powers resurfacing. That was followed by a few thousand years of deep distrust of technology and the societies which had relied on it, which meant that most of the machines and records which survived the 'Great Wars' were destroyed deliberately and attempts to rediscover them, or even to invent new technologies, were strictly forbidden for a long time. Instead magic was used to do many of the things technology used to do...and proved to have all kinds of inherent dangers of it's own, including plenty of potential to destroy the world all over again - which is what many of the books are about.

Another possibility is something like the Pern series where, a group of settlers deliberately restricted themselves to a lower level of technology than was available to them because they wanted to get away from that lifestyle and the problems it caused. They used spaceships to reach Pern and futuristic (to us, modern to them) technology and generic engineering to get established but did so with every intention that within a few generations most of the tech would be abandoned and they would establish a pre-industrial civilisation. Then though various unforeseen or unpredictable events - not least of which was a regularly reoccurring rain of deadly fungi from space - even more was lost, including knowledge which only a few specialists had.

But that's one reason I hope, if Anet ever does explore the origins of humanity, they don't have them come from Earth. However they do it I think it would be too similar to various stories which have been done before and I'd prefer something new.