Won't power reaper be efficient in organized groups - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Won't power reaper be efficient in organized groups

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  • @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    It's not massive at all. Incompetent pugs aren't carried by high DPS. They're carried by good heals and support players. Doing slightly more damage isn't going to stop players from flubbing the mechanics. Likewise, if we presume pugs are incompetent, then they'd just die while playing Weaver and Deadeye. The baseline DPS of Greatsword Reaper is on par with every other class in the game, so the worse players do the smaller the difference between dps gets.

    You can phase xera mid with high dps and dont have to clear any orbs. You don't need to to anything on gorseval except for dps and fast cc. Cairn dies in like 80sec and fewer.

    In fractals, if I am on a pug group, I would much rather play a Necromancer than a Warrior, Mesmer, or Elementalist. On those teams, necromancers are great. I can disable enemy groups with for extended periods of time with Nightfall and Well of Darkness, I can gather enemies up to damage them down with Grasping Darkness, I can rip all of their boons with Well of Corruption, absorb unholy amounts of damage with "Rise!", self buff to 25 might, solo break bars with the Flesh Golem, heal myself greatly and rez well with the Blood Magic traits, block orbs/projectiles with Corrosive Poison Cloud, and cleanse conditions with Well of Power. This is no exaggeration, either. I've been on teams where I've needed almost all of this. But if I am on a Warrior, the most I can do is pop Endure Pain and hope they aggro on me. With Elementalist, I use Sand Storm and hope I don't get clobbered by attacks that do more than my entire health bar. On mesmer, all of my boons are multipliers, so 1.5 times nothing is nothing.

    What you do on warrior is pressing gs burst 2 times with heal for the same area damage soul spiral has while you provide banners. Where do you even fight so much trash? Molten duo maybe but that's a non issue anyways since you can just run to boss and burst it down in 30sec. Half of the stuff you mentioned isn't worth anything as soon as you get a team that isn't completely useless. Running blood magic lowers the damage even further.

    When I talk about carrying pugs, that is under the assumption that the pugs are, at best, average. If the pugs are hyper competent, then they don't need to be carried.

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    The thing about having a laser focus on raids is that raids isn't all of GW2. It's not even "most of the time" in GW2. However I digress: having laser focus on just necromancer will make it so you lose sight of all of the little problems that other classes have. Losing DPS due to shroud damage is on par with what other classes have to deal with:

    Revenant: Loses massive amounts of damage if the 10 energy threshold is missed, which is going to happen any time anything other than "nothing" happens. The timing is literally split second and has little to no leeway.

    This may happen to braindead revs but you can always press f1 for 10 energy or f4 for 20 to reduce energy before a swap. It isn't even close to split second timing.

    Pulsing might/alacrity is only something you do when you've failed the rotation by a large margin. If done perfectly, everything sets into place and you won't need to use the function skills to blow energy. But if it doesn't, then you're hit twice. First, the DPS is lower because the rotation is missed. Second, you have to spend time auto attacking until your energy accumulates up to the Fx threshold. But, this isn't just about missing the rotation by a mile, but missing it slightly. Maybe it is slightly missed timing, maybe it is lag, maybe something unexpected comes up, whatever. Once that energy bar ticks up to 11, you lose 25 on the next weapon swap and everything just goes pear-shaped . Keep in mind, this margin of error is as small as 1/5th of a second every 10 second interval.

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    Warrior: Berserk mode is on a timer, and losing out due to enemy movement, enemy CC, poorly timed mechanics or phasing. They have almost no range, and if the rage skills miss everything goes wrong.

    They have the same range reaper has which is melee. Wasting berserk while close to a phase is entirely on the warr side to handle. Range skill goes on a 4sec cooldown if it misses. Thats not the end of the world.

    I don't know which skills you're talking about. The rage utility skills don't go on a 4 second cooldown when missed. The primal burst skills have a 5 second cooldown, but the lost adrenaline means you have to build it all up again. The thing about holding off on berserk mode before phasing is that the damage all comes from berserk mode, which means a DPS loss.

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    Engineer: The condi rotation is objectively the hardest in the game, and it fails terribly if the enemy moves slightly in one direction. Also, engineers blow themselves up if you're off slightly with photon forge.

    Nobody even plays this anymore. Engineer is another "dont play this garbage in pve" profession anyways.

    You're getting lost in the details. My whole point is this: all classes have to deal with all the little frustrations that their mechanic entails. If Engineer is so bad that nobody plays it, this proof of my claim.

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    Thief: It can't move and only hurts one target at a time. The rotation screeches to a halt every time you get the quickness stolen skill, and if malice or initiative gets messed up the DPS flatlines. Suffers from prone-to-death syndrome.

    What? You don't play the rifle build except for very few occassions. Staff DD is still very strong with an unfailable rotation. You can't screw up malice if there is no malice.

    Again, this demonstrates the problem with running a Deadeye, if you have to run Daredevil in spite of having lower DPS. The DD has its own problems, particularly from inconvenient dodge spacing and having to consume its entire endurance bar just to get their DPS buff.

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    Mesmer: Chrono has its DPS drops to Necromancer levels if the enemy doesn't have permanent slow. Has no way to apply permanent slow. Depends wholly on illusions for damage, whether it is continuum split or infinite horizon.

    Mirage exists. It can reach 40k+ dps an actual bosses being the highest dps spec in the game. It's just not in the benchmark list because confusion doesn't work on the golem.

    Mirage has its problems, too. Bad in places with multiple enemies, has a difficult rotation due to having to manage so many variables, and slow ramp up means terrible DPS against anything that is neither the raid boss nor a condi-weakness gimmick.

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    What I would like to see is the baseline damage under full buffs for all melee weapons be raised to about 23k while reducing some of the burst, normalizing DPS for most professions at around 35k for perfect rotations. Less for ranged weapons, maybe more for conditions. Class identity shouldn't be tied around one being the DPS, or another not being the DPS. The global melee weapon buff is to make mistakes less punishing and bad players more tolerable. For necromancers, this would have the additional benefit of making shroud loss less punishing.

    This would destroy pvp balance. This isn't wow where you have a super op healer outhealing 2+ people. You are supposed to avoid big hits. High auto attack pressure would have close to no counterplay if it isn't kiteable. Buffing auto attacks would destroy some of the action game aspects. Release holo had strong auto attacks in forge. That got nerfed almost immediately.

    It didn't destroy PVP balance. All of the stuff I'm talking about has already been done before. I'm going to reference the old tests I made here (this was before I made a warrior, so I don't have their numbers):

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/782551/#Comment_782551

    Holosmith: 22k auto in photon forge
    Herald: 26k auto with upkeep skill (closer to 24k if you're using assassin's presence, though)
    Reaper: 22k alternating between camping shroud and dagger auto
    Mirage: 21k axe auto with 3 axe clones
    Thief: Staff, Dagger, and Sword auto are all 25k

    Doing so for 5/9 professions isn't a problem, it certainly won't be a problem for the other 4, nor on other weapons for the same profession. I used to play Power Herald in WvW a lot, before they were nerfed in the recent balance patch. Even though I had high auto damage with an upkeep skill, that isn't what killed people. At range it was Coalescence of Ruin (hammer 2), and in close range it was sword skills 2-5. Though I could kill people with my high auto damage, I rarely had the opportunity to.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • Methuselah.4376Methuselah.4376 Member ✭✭✭

    Reaper: 22k alternating between camping shroud and dagger auto

    Why dagger and not Greatsword? Dagger is quite a dps loss compared to greatsword, even if the latter is much slower.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Methuselah.4376 said:

    Reaper: 22k alternating between camping shroud and dagger auto

    Why dagger and not Greatsword? Dagger is quite a dps loss compared to greatsword, even if the latter is much slower.

    Because, ultimately, if it's just using the auto attack, dagger is sligthly better than GS in damage and LF sustain. GS is only better in damage if you add nightfall into the rotation

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Methuselah.4376 said:

    Reaper: 22k alternating between camping shroud and dagger auto

    Why dagger and not Greatsword? Dagger is quite a dps loss compared to greatsword, even if the latter is much slower.

    Because, ultimately, if it's just using the auto attack, dagger is sligthly better than GS in damage and LF sustain. GS is only better in damage if you add nightfall into the rotation

    If I remember correctly, GS auto will result in ~16-18k DPS
    Which should be much more, than dagger can do

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    Mesmer: Chrono has its DPS drops to Necromancer levels if the enemy doesn't have permanent slow. Has no way to apply permanent slow. Depends wholly on illusions for damage, whether it is continuum split or infinite horizon.

    Mirage exists. It can reach 40k+ dps an actual bosses being the highest dps spec in the game. It's just not in the benchmark list because confusion doesn't work on the golem.

    Mirage has its problems, too. Bad in places with multiple enemies, has a difficult rotation due to having to manage so many variables, and slow ramp up means terrible DPS against anything that is neither the raid boss nor a condi-weakness gimmick.

    Lol. The only class that really has slow ramp up is necro.
    Almost all other classes have pretty good condi burst

    Btw. Is mirage still better than chrono? If I remember correctly, chrono can keep up ~50stacks of confusion

  • Methuselah.4376Methuselah.4376 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Methuselah.4376 said:

    Reaper: 22k alternating between camping shroud and dagger auto

    Why dagger and not Greatsword? Dagger is quite a dps loss compared to greatsword, even if the latter is much slower.

    Because, ultimately, if it's just using the auto attack, dagger is sligthly better than GS in damage and LF sustain. GS is only better in damage if you add nightfall into the rotation

    You sure? I am pretty sure that dagger's auto has fallen behind GS auto about a year ago.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Methuselah.4376 said:

    Reaper: 22k alternating between camping shroud and dagger auto

    Why dagger and not Greatsword? Dagger is quite a dps loss compared to greatsword, even if the latter is much slower.

    Because, ultimately, if it's just using the auto attack, dagger is sligthly better than GS in damage and LF sustain. GS is only better in damage if you add nightfall into the rotation

    When looking only at the auto attack overall dagger is slightly worst than GS in damage but better in LF generation. GS is overall better if there is more than 1 target.

    Dagger is less prone to drop-off due to missing attacks because of its higher attack speed though.

  • I tested the greatsword auto, too. Back then, it was 17.9k, while the dagger was 16.6k. I went with the dagger for the LF generation, because I was attempting to test the damage of Reaper's Shroud. What you see there is actually the average damage between dagger and RS, which means that RS actually higher than listed. Same goes for holosmith.

    Also note that reaper has had its damage buffed since I did these tests. With a new build, these numbers will be higher.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

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