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What your feeling on Forced Engagement and Dwarf in general?


Knighthonor.4061

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Dwarf use to be the go to defensive legend but seem to be slacking now days. Now Demon is a better break bar breaker than Dwarf and Demon is good at defense and stun breaks. The Heal on Dwarf seem to be the only thing best about it.Rite of the Dwarfs just been trash. It cost energy even when interrupted and cost too much. The damage reduction not really all that in today's pvp for its cost and duration.IR honestly need quicker activation and some better damage and effects. Would be nice if it had some break bar breaking effect to it of some kind. Need some kind of additional effect honestly.I feel Forced Engagement should be moved to a unique F2 ability or something. It's a bad useless skill. When HoT was coming out I was pretty hyped up for the Taunt condition, but it's been pretty underwhelming since it's introduction. Having a whole skill dedicated to it just been a slap in the face especially how undertuned it is. Just get rid of it and replace it with something better and useful.

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@Knighthonor.4061 said:Dwarf use to be the go to defensive legend .

Really? I thought it was Glint.

Personnally I never considered it as a defensive legend, maybe as an occasionnal source of defensive support at best due to inspiring reinforcement. Even for that, I think the legendary demon was better.

I may be an exception but I mainly considered this legend as a power damage legend, certainly not as a defensive legend. I'd consider it a defensive legend if rite of the great dwarf hadn't a cast time, if the energy and CD cost of the skills weren't so high and if inspiring reinforcement and vengeful hammer weren't good damage sources. However, that's not the case.

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@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Knighthonor.4061 said:Dwarf use to be the go to defensive legend .

Really? I thought it was Glint.

Personnally I never considered it as a defensive legend, maybe as an occasionnal source of defensive support at best due to
inspiring reinforcement
. Even for that, I think the legendary demon was better.

I may be an exception but I mainly considered this legend as a power damage legend, certainly not as a defensive legend. I'd consider it a defensive legend if
rite of the great dwarf
hadn't a cast time, if the energy and CD cost of the skills weren't so high and if
inspiring reinforcement
and
vengeful hammer
weren't good damage sources. However, that's not the case.

utility and elite skill for damage reduction and generating stability not referring to defensive legend at all? :D

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@Kravey.4563 said:

@"Knighthonor.4061" said:Dwarf use to be the go to defensive legend .

Really? I thought it was Glint.

Personnally I never considered it as a defensive legend, maybe as an occasionnal source of defensive support at best due to
inspiring reinforcement
. Even for that, I think the legendary demon was better.

I may be an exception but I mainly considered this legend as a power damage legend, certainly not as a defensive legend. I'd consider it a defensive legend if
rite of the great dwarf
hadn't a cast time, if the energy and CD cost of the skills weren't so high and if
inspiring reinforcement
and
vengeful hammer
weren't good damage sources. However, that's not the case.

utility and elite skill for damage reduction and generating stability not referring to defensive legend at all? :D

Not enough indeed, especially due to the pitiable level of damage mitigation. The legend itself is more often used for damage than it is used for defense. Glint's heal skill make the revenant tankier than the whole jalis skill kit and this since the revenant was released. referring to jalis as "the defensive legend" just feel strange. It might have been ANet purpose when they decided to create it but they never achieved something that made me think: "Ah yes! That's a defensive legend!"

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Revenant is a great class on paper but really meh in game. The energy costs, skills and traitlines need a good rework to save revenant. Jalis seems to be designed as a tanky legend but even mallyx is better than it. Instead of taunt I would like to have a dash skill similar to bulls charge (this solves the mobility issue). Elite also needs a rework. It should not need a gm talent to work vs condi. And definitely should be an insta cast.

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For pvp jalis is great except the cast time on RotGD completely kills it for high level as you will basically have a stunbreak with a massive 40 energy cost and no secondary effects as you will almost always have to dodge and cancel the cast since channeling a 1.25 sec unprotected cast time after being stunned is generally suicidal. Which would be bearable if it wasn't the only stunbreak on the kit, but it is, and thus is always either an overpriced stunbreak or an overpriced damage reduction tool and you can almost never get the benefit of both at the same time which makes the 40 energy cost excessive.

For pve, jalis fits pretty well into the power rev kit, it's single target dps isn't as good as glint or shiro but it has better cleave damage than shiro, some stability to share, better self sustain, and surprisingly tremendous breakbar cc with forced engagement being 500 breakbar (potentially 1000 if running full condi duration for some reason) though it takes a few seconds and there are sometimes other sources of slow to make that part redundant. It's not used in any big dps builds but power rev damage is bad in general and there are definitely times to use it over shiro or even kalla for alacrigade builds.

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PvP Taunt in all forms is a cancer. Revenant is a perfect example of flavor over function, which is why it is only viable in PvP because it is literally just Thief with Defiant Stance, and how anet has been desperately trying to shoehorn it into PvE groups with arbitrary buffs like free, permanent alacrity.

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Forced Engagement is a pretty decent skill in my eyes. Although I dislike the direction that they took of increased cooldowns and decreased energy costs, it works pretty well for FE. The skill does not require you to face the target and that alone allows for some very nice combos. Personally, I would like for it to receive a tether-like functionality. This would give it a couple additional features:-Have it reveal. Straightforward. You are forced to fight a taunted foe and should therefore not be able to stealth. Glint already has access to a reveal, but neither have inherent mobility beyond swiftness and/or superspeed. Classes with stealth access have high mobility access, so I think this is a fair implementation for a non-overtuned legend.-If an enemy breaks the taunt, they are weakened and you are granted fury. Sure, this is a flavor thing, but it has actual practicality.

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Personally, my thoughts are:

1) Forced Engagement's chain is reminiscent of dragonhunter F1. Give it a flipover pull.

2) Dwarf Stance is now the only stance that doesn't have a trait that provides a benefit of some kind when using its skills. Shiro has Notoriety, Mallyx has Demonic Defiance, Ventari has Generous Abundance, Glint has Draconic Echo, Kalla has All for One. A trait that provides approximately one second of stability when starting activation on Dwarf skills (essentially, cover stability) would probably solve a lot of Dwarf Stance's problems while also making Retribution more attractive. (Especially if it replaced one or more of the current Retaliation traits and granted a second or two of Retaliation when using any legend skill.)

At the moment, it honestly feels like Devastation pairs better with Jalis than Retribution does, which feels... off.

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@draxynnic.3719 said:Personally, my thoughts are:

1) Forced Engagement's chain is reminiscent of dragonhunter F1. Give it a flipover pull.

2) Dwarf Stance is now the only stance that doesn't have a trait that provides a benefit of some kind when using its skills. Shiro has Notoriety, Mallyx has Demonic Defiance, Ventari has Generous Abundance, Glint has Draconic Echo, Kalla has All for One. A trait that provides approximately one second of stability when starting activation on Dwarf skills (essentially, cover stability) would probably solve a lot of Dwarf Stance's problems while also making Retribution more attractive. (Especially if it replaced one or more of the current Retaliation traits and granted a second or two of Retaliation when using any legend skill.)

At the moment, it honestly feels like Devastation pairs better with Jalis than Retribution does, which feels... off.

This new trait will help mallyx while casting his stunbreak as well imho increasing his ability to cast spells while under preasure(if it will work like notoriety)

I like that

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@Knighthonor.4061 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:quintessential example of how an assigned style ruined a set of skills. what are dwarves? slow. guess what? slow isn't tanky lol.

Apparently the Dwarfs took on a magical ritual to become more tougher against a threat to life on the planet. So yeah they know defense.

right, so cuz of theme something shouldn't work effectively.

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@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:quintessential example of how an assigned style ruined a set of skills. what are dwarves? slow. guess what? slow isn't tanky lol.

Apparently the Dwarfs took on a magical ritual to become more tougher against a threat to life on the planet. So yeah they know defense.

right, so cuz of theme something shouldn't work effectively.

No I was addressing what you said about Dwarfs not being tanky.

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Idk a few people use it in wvw zerging.That chain skill can really ruin a glass cannon's day.

I think the premise of trying to facetank with a revenant is probably part of the issue, just don't do it. Jalis is as necessary for wvw as Kalla, Mallyx and Ventari.

Ventari < FBMallyx < ScourgeKalla < HeraldJalis < FB/Spellbreaker

I doubt they could ever buff jalis enough to be as tanky as a spellbreaker or as versatile as a support FB

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Well,

Forced Engagement should imo pierce. It doesn't have to taunt all the players it passes through, but making it pierce could increase its functionality.

Currently, Ranger has a better Taunt than Jalis. That doesn't sound promising.

As for the rest of Jalis. I think it doesn't fullfil its role 100%, just like any other Legend.The problem is that it's not tanky, it doesn't provide CC, it doesn't provide any protection outsider of RotG, the FE is unreliable, the total cost of his abilities is 90 + upkeep.

Instead of focusing on a single Legend ANet Has to look at the whole Revenant. You can't just buff Vengeful Hammers and hope Revenant's survivability increases making Jalis more tanky.

Once you pick a Legend, you should utilize its playstyle. And because classes are based on their Weapon-skills, Revenant is locked into this weird Hybrid (not really) playstyle.

  • give Retribution more identity
  • giving Stability applies Barrier
  • Forced Engagement pierce
  • RotG Chills on finishing cast
  • give Retribution a Hammer Trait
  • Hammer doesn't work well with Jalis
  • Jalis could use a semi-Bull's Charge
  • Jalis needs to be tanky or have high CC Access

I guess there is more, but I can't think of any atm.

I just think that we have too many expectations from Revenant overall, which can't be fulfilled.

Unless ANet decides to change a major chunk of the class, single Legend tweaks won't make a difference.Did Herald get a rework? Not really, just some buffs.

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@Justine.6351 said:Idk a few people use it in wvw zerging.

Ventari < FBMallyx < ScourgeKalla < HeraldJalis < FB/Spellbreaker

This. Rev cant do anything better than anyone yet it needs the same ampunt of talents/gear to perform. If a legend swap would adjust attributes accordingly to its role, it would be acceptable. It might be a jack of all trades class when devs first put it on paper but it is not now. There are really good revs dont get me wrong. But it feels like everything can be done far superior with another profession.

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@Justine.6351 said:Idk a few people use it in wvw zerging.That chain skill can really ruin a glass cannon's day.

I think the premise of trying to facetank with a revenant is probably part of the issue, just don't do it. Jalis is as necessary for wvw as Kalla, Mallyx and Ventari.

Ventari < FBMallyx < ScourgeKalla < HeraldJalis < FB/Spellbreaker

I doubt they could ever buff jalis enough to be as tanky as a spellbreaker or as versatile as a support FB

Want me to insert here a commander video while on zerker and jalis??

We were using 3 jalis and 1 ventari.

Jallis in group is great , the spin hammer reduce damage and do decent damage when spiked, they do small funny heals as well.Stability carpet is a very good skill its easy to use, easy to stack and iu think im ok with the damage, the elite is really amazing since won’t be stripped.Taunt also helps taking less damage to the jalis user.

Spammers want to ruin it because isnt a fb?????

@DonArkanio.6419, in group jalis works with hammer...amazingly lol... yes it doesnt carry, not everything needs to stack to carry noobs like fb and scourge stacking ehehehe XD.

@alain.1659 Problem with ventari is that game is all about boon stacking, ANet made game so dumb that anything else is almost not needed... reason ventari isnt much used and tends to be extremelly dificult to be efficient with it.I play ventari/herald in WvW..... and actually dropped playing guardian long time ago, amazing heals altough u need to predict the spike zone, clear condis, KB the warrior bubble on their pushes..

Its a game design issue towards spam .. that is putting good designed classes/roles into oblivion.

I kinda feel that some portion of this thread have a bit "OMG class cant carry me" issue...

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@Aeolus.3615 said:

@Justine.6351 said:Idk a few people use it in wvw zerging.That chain skill can really ruin a glass cannon's day.

I think the premise of trying to facetank with a revenant is probably part of the issue, just don't do it. Jalis is as necessary for wvw as Kalla, Mallyx and Ventari.

Ventari < FBMallyx < ScourgeKalla < HeraldJalis < FB/Spellbreaker

I doubt they could ever buff jalis enough to be as tanky as a spellbreaker or as versatile as a support FB

Want me to insert here a commander video while on zerker and jalis??

We were using 3 jalis and 1 ventari.

Jalis is quite nice, the spin hammer reduce damage and do decent damage when spiked, they do small funny heals as well.Stability carpet is a very good skill, the elite is really amazing since won’t be stripped.Taunt also helps taking less damage to the jalis user.

Spammers want to ruin it???

You can command on anything with a dozen firebrands, scrappers and scourges...But do you know why fb is the better choice? Because it isn't 95% selfish survivability and actually supports people for more than 5 seconds.

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@Justine.6351 said:

@Justine.6351 said:Idk a few people use it in wvw zerging.That chain skill can really ruin a glass cannon's day.

I think the premise of trying to facetank with a revenant is probably part of the issue, just don't do it. Jalis is as necessary for wvw as Kalla, Mallyx and Ventari.

Ventari < FBMallyx < ScourgeKalla < HeraldJalis < FB/Spellbreaker

I doubt they could ever buff jalis enough to be as tanky as a spellbreaker or as versatile as a support FB

Want me to insert here a commander video while on zerker and jalis??

We were using 3 jalis and 1 ventari.

Jalis is quite nice, the spin hammer reduce damage and do decent damage when spiked, they do small funny heals as well.Stability carpet is a very good skill, the elite is really amazing since won’t be stripped.Taunt also helps taking less damage to the jalis user.

Spammers want to ruin it???

You can command on anything with a dozen firebrands, scrappers and scourges...But do you know why fb is the better choice? Because it isn't 95% selfish survivability and actually supports people for more than 5 seconds.

Neither jalis is....while it can still aplly devastating damage...Sounds pretty much to me u dont understand rev :\ and u guys are way to much blind by the aoe and stack/spam metas, it doesnt need to be better, a group of firebrands can not be enough to catch a aoe bomb zone, now if u have your party organized, a 50% damage reducer m8 be what players need to withstand and dodge while being healed, that what jallis is for, it doesnt need to be like a FB..At the end both help each other....

Ventari and Jalis are not ment to be as good or worse than FB nor scourges, they have their roles, to reduce damage(delay damage depletting faster and do really some good damage with hammer) with the adition of huge heal spikes with ventari tablet(that's by far the only healing skill ventari has...), just like gw1 had infused health skill, patient spirit, and prot monks, this is what jalis and ventari are....F2 on herald/jalis can be a passive damage reducer for 10 players, now had protection, and tell me the FB dont apreaciate it rather than try the overhealing gameplay that gw2 allows.

IMO they are weak at most eyes cause most tend to run builds and classes that tend to carry in most situations or they end being to easy has in low effort gameplay, rather than actually find strategy and mechanics to solve situations.

Herald on pleb healing stats is a 1khp passive heal to 10 players.. just 1 passive skill alone. (basicly gives to 10 players a old warrior healing signet on steroids.... wiht 5k heals on staff and shield wich can blast remove condis )

EDIT: maybe Anet could return the aoe stun breaker from jalis elite :\ that would be a super improvement, and maybe taunt needs to be stronger if pve version of 4sec is 2 strong then 2sec is to weak :} ....

@Buran.3796, Mallys e-management is a pain.. dev's need to play that thing asap to see how burden it is, kinda feel they want us to camp on its elite and play for the 40 torment stacks aoe....

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@Aeolus.3615 said:

@alain.1659 Problem with ventari is that game is all about boon stacking, ANet made game so dumb that anything else is almost not needed... reason ventari isnt much used and tends to be extremelly dificult to be efficient with it.I play ventari/herald in WvW..... and actually dropped playing guardian long time ago, amazing heals altough u need to predict the spike zone, clear condis, KB the warrior bubble on their pushes..

Its a game design issue towards spam .. that is putting good designed classes/roles into oblivion.

I kinda feel that some portion of this thread have a bit "OMG class cant carry me" issue...

You are right about game being a boon spam. Just tried fb tonight and boons were just flying in the air. It is easier and more useful than any support I have tried, like tempest, scrapper or rev. Yet about boons, sadly the meta is based on them. So either other professions should be nerfed or rev should be buffed a little to compete with them.

Ps: any ventari or general rev advices are welcomed :)

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