So now thieves have traps removed we can remove reveal on trap Damage — Guild Wars 2 Forums

So now thieves have traps removed we can remove reveal on trap Damage

Karnn.4569Karnn.4569 Member ✭✭
edited August 14, 2019 in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Back once upon last year I believe it was all traps had reveal added when triggered this was to stop perma stealth trapper thieves. This had the side effect of completely killing rune of the trapper ranger builds who got useful stealth from the rune but couldn't perma stealth. Now that thieves have had traps removed completely and cannot even use the rune for stealth gain can we please get the knee jerk patch of reveal on trigger removed as its really painful on ranger and still kills off trapper ranger.

This change is a fix to a skill line on a class now that's been removed and is detrimental to builds on other classes as a result.

Comments

  • runeblade.7514runeblade.7514 Member ✭✭✭

    What reveals the trapper isn't the trap, its the damage.

    6x warrior/5xRanger/6x Revenant/6x Mesmer/5x Guardian/6x Thief/5x Engineer/5x Necromancer/5x Elementalist

  • Karnn.4569Karnn.4569 Member ✭✭
    edited August 14, 2019

    Right and that was added to stop perma stealth thieves using traps and spamming caltrops and staying invisible as they weren't attacking themselves and therefore it didn't break stealth its still an issue however more so for ranger builds.

    Now traps are removed Thieves dont really have access to do that anymore attacking with weapon skills still reveals.

    For example ranger traps usually apply a specific condi if I'm trying to lay more than one trap right after the first while in my few sec of stealth any player with a basic purge which is everyone can hop on my first trap and force reveal me then burst me. This allows an enemy to actively negate the rune I'm using and even use it against me.

    Another option is just to make stealth from the rune not effected by trap damage triggers as theif wont be able to trigger the rune anymore anyway. This only applies to damage from traps while in stealth using this rune.

  • Karnn.4569Karnn.4569 Member ✭✭
    edited August 15, 2019

    Except that's how the game always was till last year when the change was implemented.
    I played trap ranger alot and in wvw and pvp mostly pve and wvw and the runes did for all the time they've been in game exactly what I'm asking they return them to now.

    When they made the change it was because the only class that could use it and really abuse the rune was thief.
    They now have traps removed its time to allow us to play the builds we used to on other classes that were screwed up due to a quick fix for thief.

    People including myself had fun playing trap ranger up until this change made running traps on ranger so sub par they really aren't viable vs other builds even as a simply fun build.

    As for the cheese tactic the game has too much purge so it doesn't work like you imply and traps pulse so targets usually pass through before full condi damage is applied then they simply purge whats left. This also reveals the ranger who btw cant run around in perma stealth anyway so you have to time the traps.

    Stealth on trap is more used for escape or positioning as dropping traps takes time and isn't instant so you can drop traps as a smoke screen effect using stealth to run away or circle the target. This utility gets gutted by reveal on trap damage you will have to leave stealth anyway as ranger cannot perma stealth so what happens is the damage reveal ruins the utility of the stealth.

    Remember the stealth is only gained from deploying the very thing that shuts it off if triggered as that thing does damage.

    This is like every time you put your car in drive your wheels vanish. then putting it in park makes them reappear.

  • runeblade.7514runeblade.7514 Member ✭✭✭

    @Karnn.4569 said:
    Right and that was added to stop perma stealth thieves using traps and spamming caltrops and staying invisible as they weren't attacking themselves and therefore it didn't break stealth its still an issue however more so for ranger builds.

    Now traps are removed Thieves dont really have access to do that anymore attacking with weapon skills still reveals.

    For example ranger traps usually apply a specific condi if I'm trying to lay more than one trap right after the first while in my few sec of stealth any player with a basic purge which is everyone can hop on my first trap and force reveal me then burst me. This allows an enemy to actively negate the rune I'm using and even use it against me.

    Another option is just to make stealth from the rune not effected by trap damage triggers as theif wont be able to trigger the rune anymore anyway. This only applies to damage from traps while in stealth using this rune.

    All I am saying is that if Rangers were meant to stealth trap, they would've done it regardless with thieves having traps or not.

    6x warrior/5xRanger/6x Revenant/6x Mesmer/5x Guardian/6x Thief/5x Engineer/5x Necromancer/5x Elementalist

  • Karnn.4569Karnn.4569 Member ✭✭
    edited August 16, 2019

    @runeblade.7514 said:
    All I am saying is that if Rangers were meant to stealth trap, they would've done it regardless with thieves having traps or not.

    When you say "they" you should be more clear.
    If by "they" you mean Anet then.

    If you want to know what caused them to make the changes it was this.
    https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Thief_-Ghost_Thief
    and
    https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Thief
    -_Condition_Trapper

    You can find alot more from 2017 if you google "gw2 perma stealth trapper theif"

    This was clearly broken and needed a fix. The change to stop thieves abusing this was a blanket change that effected all traps It was why the change was made it was what the community cried about at the time.

    When blanket changes to game functions are made to fix one problem you create more.

    If by "they" you mean rangers still play it regardless.

    It's not rewarding at all and now the rune punishes players it also cant be used for escape as those chasing you trigger them and run out of them before all pulses hit. This knocks your cover away even if its only 3 seconds for you can get knocked out while placing the next trap which isnt instant.
    This means your literally bent over placing it as your revealed ready to take it in the Kitten.

    I played it last night in WVW It was fun before the changes It is still miserable now.
    Never in the history of GW2 have I ever heard people yell trapper Ranger OP even with trapper runes.

    To that point feel free to Google "gw2 trapper ranger op"

    On the other hand Perma stealth thief trapper was OP and was rightly called out On top of traps it had way too many other stealth access means.
    However the blanket changes made to traps in turn destroyed the runes viability on ranger as we have no other source for stealth other than LB which you dont run in a condi build which is what traps are used in.

    Also I main all 3 med classes those are my go tos after the rune changes Trapper ranger was too slow without the stealth working properly on runes and no other stealth in case they were revealed.
    I was then forced to go play SB I felt SB was cheese coming from trapper ranger what does that tell you. The nerf to theif trapper was warranted but ranger was not.

    The reason I bring up trapper runes is traps on theifs are gone and other builds used them properly and I would like to be able to again.
    Ive been waiting 2 years for a more solid fix to this issue we just got it traps are gone on theif lets make trapper ranger fun again.

  • runeblade.7514runeblade.7514 Member ✭✭✭

    @Karnn.4569 said:

    @runeblade.7514 said:
    All I am saying is that if Rangers were meant to stealth trap, they would've done it regardless with thieves having traps or not.

    When you say "they" you should be more clear.
    If by "they" you mean Anet then.

    If you want to know what caused them to make the changes it was this.
    https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Thief_-Ghost_Thief
    and
    https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Thief
    -_Condition_Trapper

    You can find alot more from 2017 if you google "gw2 perma stealth trapper theif"

    This was clearly broken and needed a fix. The change to stop thieves abusing this was a blanket change that effected all traps It was why the change was made it was what the community cried about at the time.

    When blanket changes to game functions are made to fix one problem you create more.

    If by "they" you mean rangers still play it regardless.

    It's not rewarding at all and now the rune punishes players it also cant be used for escape as those chasing you trigger them and run out of them before all pulses hit. This knocks your cover away even if its only 3 seconds for you can get knocked out while placing the next trap which isnt instant.
    This means your literally bent over placing it as your revealed ready to take it in the Kitten.

    I played it last night in WVW It was fun before the changes It is still miserable now.
    Never in the history of GW2 have I ever heard people yell trapper Ranger OP even with trapper runes.

    To that point feel free to Google "gw2 trapper ranger op"

    On the other hand Perma stealth thief trapper was OP and was rightly called out On top of traps it had way too many other stealth access means.
    However the blanket changes made to traps in turn destroyed the runes viability on ranger as we have no other source for stealth other than LB which you dont run in a condi build which is what traps are used in.

    Also I main all 3 med classes those are my go tos after the rune changes Trapper ranger was too slow without the stealth working properly on runes and no other stealth in case they were revealed.
    I was then forced to go play SB I felt SB was cheese coming from trapper ranger what does that tell you. The nerf to theif trapper was warranted but ranger was not.

    The reason I bring up trapper runes is traps on theifs are gone and other builds used them properly and I would like to be able to again.
    Ive been waiting 2 years for a more solid fix to this issue we just got it traps are gone on theif lets make trapper ranger fun again.

    Again, if ANet intended rangers to have perma stealth on traps, they would've done it regardless of thieves having access to traps or not. Maybe that clears up for you.

    6x warrior/5xRanger/6x Revenant/6x Mesmer/5x Guardian/6x Thief/5x Engineer/5x Necromancer/5x Elementalist

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @runeblade.7514 said:

    Again, if ANet intended rangers to have perma stealth on traps, they would've done it regardless of thieves having access to traps or not. Maybe that clears up for you.

    Just to point out, anet has been known to make changes that dont make much sense from time to time, and certainly about bigger things than a rune changed years ago to fix a problem with one class, regardless of if it ruined builds for another.

    The only way to make them think about changing stuff from years ago is to point out changes that affect those changes, as the OP is doing. Perhaps they want to keep it that way, perhaps not, we -dont- know if they even thought about it, we dont know if they are already considering it.

    Amana Silentchild; My Main
    Ember Wandertooth; The Kingslayer, Kianda Redpaw; The Blazing Light
    Why GW is Called Guildwars

  • Karnn.4569Karnn.4569 Member ✭✭

    @runeblade.7514 said:
    Again, if ANet intended rangers to have perma stealth on traps, they would've done it regardless of thieves having access to traps or not. Maybe that clears up for you.

    Rangers never had perma stealth on traps so not really.

    The lowering of stealth on the runes to 3 sec is also fine no issues with that either.
    I like the super speed and it makes the 3 sec of stealth more useful than 4 sec without it.

    Even chaining traps at 4 sec we never had perma stealth on ranger. Thief did because they had alot of other access to stealth they could combo on top of the rune hence why it was broken.

  • runeblade.7514runeblade.7514 Member ✭✭✭

    @Karnn.4569 said:

    @runeblade.7514 said:
    Again, if ANet intended rangers to have perma stealth on traps, they would've done it regardless of thieves having access to traps or not. Maybe that clears up for you.

    Rangers never had perma stealth on traps so not really.

    The lowering of stealth on the runes to 3 sec is also fine no issues with that either.
    I like the super speed and it makes the 3 sec of stealth more useful than 4 sec without it.

    Even chaining traps at 4 sec we never had perma stealth on ranger. Thief did because they had alot of other access to stealth they could combo on top of the rune hence why it was broken.

    Ok then.

    6x warrior/5xRanger/6x Revenant/6x Mesmer/5x Guardian/6x Thief/5x Engineer/5x Necromancer/5x Elementalist

  • Naah the less cheese in the game the better.

  • Karnn.4569Karnn.4569 Member ✭✭

    @Dante.1763 said:

    Just to point out, anet has been known to make changes that dont make much sense from time to time, and certainly about bigger things than a rune changed years ago to fix a problem with one class, regardless of if it ruined builds for another.

    The only way to make them think about changing stuff from years ago is to point out changes that affect those changes, as the OP is doing. Perhaps they want to keep it that way, perhaps not, we -dont- know if they even thought about it, we dont know if they are already considering it.

    Right This wasn't meant to be a debate as the builds were solid but never OP I was asking a sincere question if now that the problem the change was meant to solve is no more if we can make it so builds inadvertently harmed by the change can now be returned to normalcy.

  • Ben K.6238Ben K.6238 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Keeping stealth trap rangers non-viable is also a good thing. There are other condi ranger builds that work nicely without abusing stealth.

  • Karnn.4569Karnn.4569 Member ✭✭
    edited August 17, 2019

    @Ben K.6238 said:
    Keeping stealth trap rangers non-viable is also a good thing. There are other condi ranger builds that work nicely without abusing stealth.

    Its viable still just the rune is self defeating and thus not something it should be. Also the stealth builds are glass sure I could condi perma protect regen bunker But that's actually cheese.
    If you time a fight with a trapper ranger you can 1 burst them when they have to leave the stealth provided by traps as stealth has a downtime.

    Mesmer clones backstab perma stealth these are cheese. A pure glass condi build that requires timing and thought not so much.
    Remember your glass and have to engage in short bow ranges with condis you better know what your doing.
    You can get killed in stealth with aoe like DE and have less uptime to make use of.
    Also its fun to troll deadeyes running away once marked in stealth leaving their range. This is still doable.

    This made them fun counter play to DE in the open witch is badly needed.

    Could you bunker trapper yes however due to pulses on traps your still better slotting something else that benefits your sustain more as your damage becomes laughable.

  • Ben K.6238Ben K.6238 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Changing the rune would be a good idea. There is, indeed, not much point having one that counters itself.

  • Karnn.4569Karnn.4569 Member ✭✭

    @Ben K.6238 said:
    Changing the rune would be a good idea. There is, indeed, not much point having one that counters itself.

    One option I posted earlier was to make stealth from the rune not effected by trap damage triggers.
    This only applies to damage from traps while in stealth using this rune.
    Any other stealth it doesn't effect just stealth applied by the rune This would fix the issue of dropping a trap and being booted from stealth by a trigger.
    All other damage delt from stealth would drop the stealth like normal.

    As it is now for example in pve you know mobs will still attack after stealthing for abit sometimes if you drop a trap trying to evade and one ambient critter triggers it or a single pocket raptor pop your out of stealth getting beamed again.

    I know alot of people hate stealth but this isnt even on par with the clones plus evade of mesmers or perma stealth of theif or Daredevil evade spam and never was It was simply a fun alternate way to play the class.

  • Ben K.6238Ben K.6238 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think I prefer the rune replacement option. From a gameplay point of view, stealth is currently a tactical option that allows you to become invisible for a short duration, with the tradeoff that it only lasts until you attack your target. It's a bit dubious as it is, but if we start poking holes in the system so you can land your damage skills while invisible, it becomes obnoxious.

    The stealth from the trapper runes should just be replaced with something a bit more sensible. If it's to promote an evasive sort of build, vigour and superspeed might work.

  • Karnn.4569Karnn.4569 Member ✭✭

    @Ben K.6238 said:
    I think I prefer the rune replacement option. From a gameplay point of view, stealth is currently a tactical option that allows you to become invisible for a short duration, with the tradeoff that it only lasts until you attack your target. It's a bit dubious as it is, but if we start poking holes in the system so you can land your damage skills while invisible, it becomes obnoxious.

    The stealth from the trapper runes should just be replaced with something a bit more sensible. If it's to promote an evasive sort of build, vigour and superspeed might work.

    Except that doesn't work as placing the traps is far too slow it locks you in an animation for a short duration If you want to go this route were talking a whole trap revamp make them instant or thrown make them do all stacks applied at once not in pulses. As vigor does you no good when locked in a animation and most times your placing you have full stamina any way this is way more work.

    Also you dont stay invisible anyway each trap is 3 sec of stealth that's using all 4 trap skills gives 12 sec of stealth. you then cannot acquire another 12 sec rotation for a fair time as the traps must all reset. This lowers you to short bursts of 3 sec in combat. Stealth in this way is reasonable it requires timing. It was also used this way for a very long time by rangers and no one ever took issue with it.

    Ive also been playing trapper ranger anyway and yet to see a massive thread on it being OP since the release of trapper runes which have been used this way with even 4 sec of stealth since added in September 09, 2014. They received the stealth drop to 3 sec in 2015.

    Where thieves have 12 sec on 1 skill and the new smokescreen blast can give another 12 sec. this still leaves a stealth heal for 6 sec open and another utility plus a stealth elite.

    Yea that's a lot of stealth. Also they can 1-2 shot backstab you. Don't gotta wait for you to trip a trap or leave stealth just walk up and drop you.

    I also want to point out people have been using this rune on ranger builds around you for 5 years. Why when I bring up I would like something that is annoying with it fixed does everyone notice us now and say it needs removed?

    Yea seems alot of stealth bias from theif abuse is carrying over here and debating that is not the point of this thread.

  • Ben K.6238Ben K.6238 Member ✭✭✭✭

    "It's fine because something else abuses this even more" is a pretty good way to end up with power creep and horrible gameplay.

  • Karnn.4569Karnn.4569 Member ✭✭
    edited August 19, 2019

    @Ben K.6238 said:
    "It's fine because something else abuses this even more" is a pretty good way to end up with power creep and horrible gameplay.

    Its been used for 5 years by ranger in every game mode. Where are the complaints? there are none! None in 5 years! Why? because using it as intended is not abuse! And it was never META even having some stealth. "which shows stealth can be done right btw"

    So all we've concluded here is you hate all things stealth and your unfamiliar with whats going on around you in game for the last 5 years.
    That last part we cant blame you for as people tend not to notice things that aren't problematic, so acting like its an issue now makes a redundant argument look more redundant.
    There hasn't been power creep with this rune in all of those 5 years so your last point is also moot.
    That or all things can one day possibly be abused therefore Anet must dress us all in bubble wrap and give us pool noodles so no ones feelings are ever hurt again.

    The point of the thread was not the Rune but how a change to fix thief abuse has had some negative impact on users who use the rune in other class builds that use it reasonably. It can now be adjusted so those players dont need to have that pitfall in those builds.

    The rune still functions fine.
    Its the reveal on trap damage that can be abused by an opponent to the detriment of the player trying to utilize the runes short bursts of stealth.
    This is due to 2 factors traps are under powered due to pulses and the sheer amount of purge now in game.
    This allows players to negate the stealth given by hopping through a trap and purging then punching you in the face.

    If we could throw traps it would help as we could place them somewhere someone chasing us wouldn't trigger it if trying to evade.
    Problem here is anything sets em off a bunny wanders into it as you try to escape and blam pants on head. Throwing it was useless.

    Also scourge 2.0 eeewwwwww throwing traps.

    Easiest fix to the issue so far I can think of is what I mentioned above.

  • Hashberry.4510Hashberry.4510 Member ✭✭✭

    Power creep boss scares a lot of these folks.

  • Ben K.6238Ben K.6238 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Karnn.4569 said:
    So all we've concluded here is you hate all things stealth and your unfamiliar with whats going on around you in game for the last 5 years.
    That last part we cant blame you for as people tend not to notice things that aren't problematic, so acting like its an issue now makes a redundant argument look more redundant.
    There hasn't been power creep with this rune in all of those 5 years so your last point is also moot.
    That or all things can one day possibly be abused therefore Anet must dress us all in bubble wrap and give us pool noodles so no ones feelings are ever hurt again.

    Guilty on the stealth thing - I main mesmer and still think stealth was a bad idea for GW2. If it couldn't be used as a combat mechanic I'd be more open to it.

    But no, I'm quite familiar with trapper rangers. I used to run one in 2013 before this rune existed. They were borderline rubbish then, and are not much better now. That still doesn't mean turning a mediocre build into an annoying mediocre build is a good idea. Troll builds don't bring anything worthwhile to PvP gameplay.

    And my last point is not moot if the suggestion is that there "hasn't been power creep with this rune" so let's go add some.

    We already have thieves and mesmers that can set up kills while invisible, which is poor game design and I'd be happy to see it reconsidered. We don't need to add trapper rangers and dragonhunters to the can-kill-while-invisible list just because thieves don't have traps anymore and rangers aren't going to be amazing at it.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Karnn.4569 said:
    Back once upon last year I believe it was all traps had reveal added when triggered this was to stop perma stealth trapper thieves. This had the side effect of completely killing rune of the trapper ranger builds who got useful stealth from the rune but couldn't perma stealth. Now that thieves have had traps removed completely and cannot even use the rune for stealth gain can we please get the knee jerk patch of reveal on trigger removed as its really painful on ranger and still kills off trapper ranger.

    You may not know this, but all this "knee jerk patch" did was to fix the unintentional inconsistency in traps and stealth interaction. The reason why traps didn't reveal originally was not because it was planned so. Reveal from the beginning was meant to trigger on all damage. No, the reason for that was much simpler - the source of damage for traps was not the player, but the trap gizmo. When devs introduced reveal mechanic, they overlooked that, so, when it was eventually brought to their attention (in a very spectacular way), they simply corrected that omission. If anything, it took them too long to do that. Damaging while not breaking stealth should never have happened in the first place.

    This change is a fix to a skill line on a class now that's been removed and is detrimental to builds on other classes as a result.

    And that's where you're wrong. And because you're wrong, your conclusion is also wrong. The original reason for that fix still exists unchanged - and that means there's no basis to revert that change.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Karnn.4569Karnn.4569 Member ✭✭
    edited August 21, 2019

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    You may not know this, but all this "knee jerk patch" did was to fix the unintentional inconsistency in traps and stealth interaction. The reason why traps didn't reveal originally was not because it was planned so. Reveal from the beginning was meant to trigger on all damage. No, the reason for that was much simpler - the source of damage for traps was not the player, but the trap gizmo. When devs introduced reveal mechanic, they overlooked that, so, when it was eventually brought to their attention (in a very spectacular way), they simply corrected that omission. If anything, it took them too long to do that. Damaging while not breaking stealth should never have happened in the first place.

    Well aware yet they added a rune that worked the way stealth traps worked before such omission and therefore need to still fix the issue.

    This change is a fix to a skill line on a class now that's been removed and is detrimental to builds on other classes as a result.

    And that's where you're wrong. And because you're wrong, your conclusion is also wrong. The original reason for that fix still exists unchanged - and that means there's no basis to revert that change.

    Except once you build other game mechanics around your "mistake" you then create more mistakes when you decide what you considered "correct enough to build gear around" is now a "mistake" and then correct it.

    In short mistakes if left in a game long enough that content is built around its current function it generally isn't considered a mistake any more.
    Its current function is being used as a basis to make content in this case runes.

    If it is later changed and declared a mistake leaves alot of questions about kitten is going on and still leaves my issue unsolved and is still a clear issue due to the changes.

    Which also means my conclusion that this is a problem needing fixed is still correct.

    Thank you

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Karnn.4569 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    You may not know this, but all this "knee jerk patch" did was to fix the unintentional inconsistency in traps and stealth interaction. The reason why traps didn't reveal originally was not because it was planned so. Reveal from the beginning was meant to trigger on all damage. No, the reason for that was much simpler - the source of damage for traps was not the player, but the trap gizmo. When devs introduced reveal mechanic, they overlooked that, so, when it was eventually brought to their attention (in a very spectacular way), they simply corrected that omission. If anything, it took them too long to do that. Damaging while not breaking stealth should never have happened in the first place.

    Well aware yet they added a rune that worked the way stealth traps worked before such omission and therefore need to still fix the issue.

    You might want to look up that rune again, because nothing in the way it works suggests it supports only the broken version of the traps. You just prefer the old interaction, because it was stronger.

    In short mistakes if left in a game long enough that content is built around its current function it generally isn't considered a mistake any more.
    Its current function is being used as a basis to make content in this case runes.

    But are your assumption about the rune of the trapper even correct? You prefering the way it worked with traps before doesn't mean it's not working right now. At best it may mean it's weaker that you would want.

    Which also means my conclusion that this is a problem needing fixed is still correct.

    At best, it may mean a change to the rune of the trapper may be needed due to it being too weak now (if it is too weak now). It definitely doesn't mean that we should bring back an erroneous mechanic just so the rune might work better.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • If the rune was changed because of abuse by the thief class and they can no longer abuse it there is no reason the change shouldn't be reverted. However, back when this rune was nerfed there were a lot more Anet staff members. Don't get your hopes up on this making the priority list even though it should be reverted.

    The next time you get angry at someone try walking a mile in their shoes. After that, who cares! You're a mile away and you have their shoes! -Someone with more awesome quotes than me

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 22, 2019

    @Super Hayes.6890 said:
    If the rune was changed because of abuse by the thief class and they can no longer abuse it there is no reason the change shouldn't be reverted. However, back when this rune was nerfed there were a lot more Anet staff members. Don't get your hopes up on this making the priority list even though it should be reverted.

    There was no abuse of the rune - what got abused was the unintentional interaction between stealth and trap damage, that allowed players to attack and yet remain stealthed (something that Anet decided should never happen, when they introduced the Revealed debuff). So, the change that Anet did aimed at the core of the problem - the fact that trap damage didn't apply revealed to the player that put down that trap. That is what got fixed - the rune itself wasn't changed.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Karnn.4569Karnn.4569 Member ✭✭
    edited August 22, 2019

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Karnn.4569 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    You may not know this, but all this "knee jerk patch" did was to fix the unintentional inconsistency in traps and stealth interaction. The reason why traps didn't reveal originally was not because it was planned so. Reveal from the beginning was meant to trigger on all damage. No, the reason for that was much simpler - the source of damage for traps was not the player, but the trap gizmo. When devs introduced reveal mechanic, they overlooked that, so, when it was eventually brought to their attention (in a very spectacular way), they simply corrected that omission. If anything, it took them too long to do that. Damaging while not breaking stealth should never have happened in the first place.

    Well aware yet they added a rune that worked the way stealth traps worked before such omission and therefore need to still fix the issue.

    You might want to look up that rune again, because nothing in the way it works suggests it supports only the broken version of the traps. You just prefer the old interaction, because it was stronger.

    Apparently you didn't read the issue I have Its that due to the changes it can now be used against you the person supposedly benefiting from the 6 piece bonus.
    Your bias towards stealth shows here as this is a presumption based on your bias not what I've stated anywhere above.

    In short mistakes if left in a game long enough that content is built around its current function it generally isn't considered a mistake any more.
    Its current function is being used as a basis to make content in this case runes.

    But are your assumption about the rune of the trapper even correct? You prefering the way it worked with traps before doesn't mean it's not working right now. At best it may mean it's weaker that you would want.

    I as most prefer things that function properly being able to use the rune against the player negating its effect isn't working properly this is not a preference its a fact.
    No other rune can be used against the player using it in such a way that the rune negates its own bonus I'm aware of.

    "correct me if you can think of a rune that can be used to negate its own effect please"
    I'm pretty certain the 6 piece bonus was to push people to not mix and match as much as use full sets.
    This needs fixed as it can be turned on you the bonus seems fine the pitfall needs some work.

    Which also means my conclusion that this is a problem needing fixed is still correct.

    At best, it may mean a change to the rune of the trapper may be needed due to it being too weak now (if it is too weak now). It definitely doesn't mean that we should bring back an erroneous mechanic just so the rune might work better.

    No you could make traps throwable and make them dump all stacks on target when triggered so we can stand with scourges and wave at people as commanders scream "traps on point!"

    The benefit of the rune was making it more "Trapper like" the stealth gives you cover long enough to offset the deploy and reposition time. I'm not asking for the 6 peice set to be made stronger just not self defeating in combat.

    so yes Fixed as in no longer self defeating.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Super Hayes.6890 said:
    If the rune was changed because of abuse by the thief class and they can no longer abuse it there is no reason the change shouldn't be reverted. However, back when this rune was nerfed there were a lot more Anet staff members. Don't get your hopes up on this making the priority list even though it should be reverted.

    There was no abuse of the rune - what got abused was the unintentional interaction between stealth and trap damage, that allowed players to attack and yet remain stealthed (something that Anet decided should never happen, when they introduced the Revealed debuff). So, the change that Anet did aimed at the core of the problem - the fact that trap damage didn't apply revealed to the player that put down that trap. That is what got fixed - the rune itself wasn't changed.

    Actually the rune was changed a year after being added to the game it had a stealth reduction of 1 sec and added super speed went over that in my posts above.
    As to why who knows in this case as I said before I prefer 3 sec of stealth with super speed to the 4sec stealth it had in 2014.

    The rune was abused by theif as its stealth added to the sheer amount of stealth they could get from other sources.
    This combo made it extremely cheese I even posted those builds and all the info above feel free to look it over.
    As someone who plays trapper ranger alot when the change to damage happened I felt it was justified to fix what was going on with theif.
    This did however start the issues with the rune I mentioned before.

    Also I'd like to add this isn't a big huge thing needing a massive debate.
    The issue is more a nuisance problem to those who still play the build and if it can be helped to make quality of life for users of the rune a bit better it would be appreciated that's all.

  • Thanks Astral. I didn't realize the rune wasn't modified.

    The next time you get angry at someone try walking a mile in their shoes. After that, who cares! You're a mile away and you have their shoes! -Someone with more awesome quotes than me

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Karnn.4569 said:
    Apparently you didn't read the issue I have Its that due to the changes it can now be used against you the person supposedly benefiting from the 6 piece bonus.

    How? by applying revealed to you as soon as the rune damages someone? How is that using the rune against you?

    Your bias towards stealth shows here as this is a presumption based on your bias not what I've stated anywhere above.

    Actually, when devs introduced revealed debuff, they mentioned why they were introducing it. Hint: it had nothing to do with traps, but everything to do with stealth.

    I as most prefer things that function properly being able to use the rune against the player negating its effect isn't working properly this is not a preference its a fact.

    No, it is not. It is just your own opinion that the rune should work one way and not the other.

    No other rune can be used against the player using it in such a way that the rune negates its own bonus I'm aware of.

    The rune doesn't negate its own bonus. Damage from traps does - but the damage doesn't need to happen immediately after deploying a trap, and not all traps deal damage (one ranger trap actually heals).

    Does it make the usage of the rune's set bonus very narrow? Sure it does. Doesn't mean the rune is broken. Nor it means that a change to some core principles need to happen to make the rune usable (instead of, for example, changing the set bonus to something more generally useful).

    At best, it may mean a change to the rune of the trapper may be needed due to it being too weak now (if it is too weak now). It definitely doesn't mean that we should bring back an erroneous mechanic just so the rune might work better.

    No you could make traps throwable and make them dump all stacks on target when triggered so we can stand with scourges and wave at people as commanders scream "traps on point!"

    The benefit of the rune was making it more "Trapper like" the stealth gives you cover long enough to offset the deploy and reposition time. I'm not asking for the 6 peice set to be made stronger just not self defeating in combat.

    so yes Fixed as in no longer self defeating.

    Again, this can be done by changing the rune set bonus. It doesn't necessitate changing some of the base principles in order to make one not necessarily well thought rune set more viable than it is now.

    The rune was abused by theif as its stealth added to the sheer amount of stealth they could get from other sources.

    True, it helped, but then thieves were already able to go permastealth even before. What they couldn't do (because revealed was introduced specifically to prevent that possibility) was to remain in stealth (or immediately reenter stealth) after dealing damage.

    This combo made it extremely cheese I even posted those builds and all the info above feel free to look it over.
    As someone who plays trapper ranger alot when the change to damage happened I felt it was justified to fix what was going on with theif.
    This did however start the issues with the rune I mentioned before.

    You didn't treat is as an issue with rune - you kept treating it as if the issue was that traps break stealth.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Karnn.4569Karnn.4569 Member ✭✭
    edited August 23, 2019

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    How? by applying revealed to you as soon as the rune damages someone? How is that using the rune against you?

    If you cant see how that can be used against you after I explained it in detail more than once shows its a waste of time to argue with your other points.
    Hint" Its to do with how traps are currently placed making it so players can easily activate and purge to force reveal you.

    Actually, when devs introduced revealed debuff, they mentioned why they were introducing it. Hint: it had nothing to do with traps, but everything to do with stealth.

    The way you worded this is extremely non descriptive I'm going to assume you mean added to traps as Revealed was in game at launch to basic stealth.
    You seem to think Revealed was added then adjusted later to include trap damage and even say the devs introduced Revealed debuff showing you made that up.

    No, it is not. It is just your own opinion that the rune should work one way and not the other.

    Cherry picked skipping points I made to back it up; not bothering.

    The rune doesn't negate its own bonus. Damage from traps does - but the damage doesn't need to happen immediately after deploying a trap, and not all traps deal damage (one ranger trap actually heals).

    Yes well aware of healing spring; a bonus to a thing that cancels the bonus is self defeating.
    No other runes seem to have this issue it didn't become a problem until the reveal adjustment.

    Does it make the usage of the rune's set bonus very narrow? Sure it does. Doesn't mean the rune is broken. Nor it means that a change to some core principles need to happen to make the rune usable (instead of, for example, changing the set bonus to something more generally useful).

    So much reading comp fail went over all this; again not bothering. Easy to criticize yet basic understanding of usage in game leads to lack of any sort of solution offered your simply arguing to argue.

    True, it helped, but then thieves were already able to go permastealth even before. What they couldn't do (because revealed was introduced specifically to prevent that possibility) was to remain in stealth (or immediately reenter stealth) after dealing damage.

    Yet all the trapper theif builds shut down by the change used the rune funny huh. Even posted all that above..

    You didn't treat is as an issue with rune - you kept treating it as if the issue was that traps break stealth.

    So you've yet to put two and two together the issue with the rune is the change to the core mechanic that hurts the rune. Went over all this in so much detail the fact I'm taking the time to respond to you in itself is ridiculous.
    So much I dont even.

    I'm done with you; post what you want I've made my point above as to what the purpose of the thread was you casually omitted it; even when placed at the end of my last response to you.

    This is not a debate it was simply to bring this to the attention of the devs and let them do what they will or nothing at all.

    Its why even though Ive been with Anet since they left Blizzard. Prior to the development of WoW and created their studio and became NCsofts first game and launched GW1 a half a year before WoW in April 28, 2005; where I played until GW2 release.
    I rarely post on the forums I'm a lurking dinosaur and dont have the time or patience for arguing on the internet its a waste of my time.

    But dont think I dont watch the forums many do and dont post here.
    Point has been made; Its up to the devs to do whatever they want.

  • Sojourner.4621Sojourner.4621 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Karnn.4569 said:
    Right and that was added to stop perma stealth thieves using traps and spamming caltrops and staying invisible as they weren't attacking themselves and therefore it didn't break stealth its still an issue however more so for ranger builds.

    Now traps are removed Thieves dont really have access to do that anymore attacking with weapon skills still reveals.

    For example ranger traps usually apply a specific condi if I'm trying to lay more than one trap right after the first while in my few sec of stealth any player with a basic purge which is everyone can hop on my first trap and force reveal me then burst me. This allows an enemy to actively negate the rune I'm using and even use it against me.

    Another option is just to make stealth from the rune not effected by trap damage triggers as theif wont be able to trigger the rune anymore anyway. This only applies to damage from traps while in stealth using this rune.

    They didn't change this. Ranger traps always revealed you, because ranger traps always had an initial hit of damage before applying their conditions. What they changed was that thieves did NOT have an initial damage hit, so they added one to those skills in order to make it remove the thief from stealth. The change you are complaining about doesn't exist and isn't what happened.

  • Karnn.4569Karnn.4569 Member ✭✭
    edited August 23, 2019

    @Sojourner.4621 said:

    @Karnn.4569 said:
    Right and that was added to stop perma stealth thieves using traps and spamming caltrops and staying invisible as they weren't attacking themselves and therefore it didn't break stealth its still an issue however more so for ranger builds.

    Now traps are removed Thieves dont really have access to do that anymore attacking with weapon skills still reveals.

    For example ranger traps usually apply a specific condi if I'm trying to lay more than one trap right after the first while in my few sec of stealth any player with a basic purge which is everyone can hop on my first trap and force reveal me then burst me. This allows an enemy to actively negate the rune I'm using and even use it against me.

    Another option is just to make stealth from the rune not effected by trap damage triggers as theif wont be able to trigger the rune anymore anyway. This only applies to damage from traps while in stealth using this rune.

    They didn't change this. Ranger traps always revealed you, because ranger traps always had an initial hit of damage before applying their conditions. What they changed was that thieves did NOT have an initial damage hit, so they added one to those skills in order to make it remove the thief from stealth. The change you are complaining about doesn't exist and isn't what happened.

    Ranger traps didn't reveal you I mained ranger and theif and when the runes were added in 09, 2014 and still main all med classes. The Reveal on trap damage didn't start until later after the release of POF and the damage reveal patch.
    This tells me your unfamiliar with how it worked and I played trap ranger every day for years.

    Also since posting the meta battle builds for theif they seem to have been removed.
    https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Thief-Condition_Trapper
    https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Thief
    -_Ghost_Thief
    Paste em in google should still find em in metabattle

    Also a warning this video may give you cancer.

    This is how bad it was. when thief used it.

  • Sojourner.4621Sojourner.4621 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 24, 2019

    @Karnn.4569 said:

    @Sojourner.4621 said:

    @Karnn.4569 said:
    Right and that was added to stop perma stealth thieves using traps and spamming caltrops and staying invisible as they weren't attacking themselves and therefore it didn't break stealth its still an issue however more so for ranger builds.

    Now traps are removed Thieves dont really have access to do that anymore attacking with weapon skills still reveals.

    For example ranger traps usually apply a specific condi if I'm trying to lay more than one trap right after the first while in my few sec of stealth any player with a basic purge which is everyone can hop on my first trap and force reveal me then burst me. This allows an enemy to actively negate the rune I'm using and even use it against me.

    Another option is just to make stealth from the rune not effected by trap damage triggers as theif wont be able to trigger the rune anymore anyway. This only applies to damage from traps while in stealth using this rune.

    They didn't change this. Ranger traps always revealed you, because ranger traps always had an initial hit of damage before applying their conditions. What they changed was that thieves did NOT have an initial damage hit, so they added one to those skills in order to make it remove the thief from stealth. The change you are complaining about doesn't exist and isn't what happened.

    Ranger traps didn't reveal you I mained ranger and theif and when the runes were added in 09, 2014 and still main all med classes. The Reveal on trap damage didn't start until later after the release of POF and the damage reveal patch.
    This tells me your unfamiliar with how it worked and I played trap ranger every day for years.

    Also since posting the meta battle builds for theif they seem to have been removed.
    https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Thief-Condition_Trapper
    https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Thief
    -_Ghost_Thief
    Paste em in google should still find em in metabattle

    Also a warning this video may give you cancer.

    This is how bad it was. when thief used it.

    I'm aware of how bad the ghost thief was. However, they did not make the placing or triggering of traps reveal you. They added a hit of damage to the traps to make it so that they would trigger stealth reveal. They MAY have done the same to ranger traps, that I'm not 100% sure of since the only trap I ever relied on for stealth on ranger was the healing spring. But as a main thief since launch I can tell you with 100% certainty that the thief traps before the patch did not do any damage, they JUST applied conditions... and the nerf to ghost thief was that they added a direct damage tick to the beginning of all of them.

    The exact patch notes for this read:
    Thief
    Traps: All traps created by the thief will have a 1-second arm time before the trap can affect enemies.
    Needle Trap: This skill now delivers a strike.
    Tripwire: This skill now delivers a strike.

    This happened March 28 2017. That strike of damage was what did it. The only nerf they made to trapper runes was reducing the stealth timer from 3 seconds to 2 in October 2015. Ranger traps themselves did remove you from stealth... with every pulse of direct damage. They did that ever since june 23, 2015 when ranger traps got a rework. Your timelines are 100% off and you are incorrect.

  • Karnn.4569Karnn.4569 Member ✭✭
    edited August 25, 2019

    @Sojourner.4621 said:

    @Karnn.4569 said:

    @Sojourner.4621 said:

    @Karnn.4569 said:
    Right and that was added to stop perma stealth thieves using traps and spamming caltrops and staying invisible as they weren't attacking themselves and therefore it didn't break stealth its still an issue however more so for ranger builds.

    Now traps are removed Thieves dont really have access to do that anymore attacking with weapon skills still reveals.

    For example ranger traps usually apply a specific condi if I'm trying to lay more than one trap right after the first while in my few sec of stealth any player with a basic purge which is everyone can hop on my first trap and force reveal me then burst me. This allows an enemy to actively negate the rune I'm using and even use it against me.

    Another option is just to make stealth from the rune not effected by trap damage triggers as theif wont be able to trigger the rune anymore anyway. This only applies to damage from traps while in stealth using this rune.

    They didn't change this. Ranger traps always revealed you, because ranger traps always had an initial hit of damage before applying their conditions. What they changed was that thieves did NOT have an initial damage hit, so they added one to those skills in order to make it remove the thief from stealth. The change you are complaining about doesn't exist and isn't what happened.

    Ranger traps didn't reveal you I mained ranger and theif and when the runes were added in 09, 2014 and still main all med classes. The Reveal on trap damage didn't start until later after the release of POF and the damage reveal patch.
    This tells me your unfamiliar with how it worked and I played trap ranger every day for years.

    Also since posting the meta battle builds for theif they seem to have been removed.
    https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Thief-Condition_Trapper
    https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Thief
    -_Ghost_Thief
    Paste em in google should still find em in metabattle

    Also a warning this video may give you cancer.

    This is how bad it was. when thief used it.

    I'm aware of how bad the ghost thief was. However, they did not make the placing or triggering of traps reveal you. They added a hit of damage to the traps to make it so that they would trigger stealth reveal. They MAY have done the same to ranger traps, that I'm not 100% sure of since the only trap I ever relied on for stealth on ranger was the healing spring. But as a main thief since launch I can tell you with 100% certainty that the thief traps before the patch did not do any damage, they JUST applied conditions... and the nerf to ghost thief was that they added a direct damage tick to the beginning of all of them.

    The exact patch notes for this read:
    Thief
    Traps: All traps created by the thief will have a 1-second arm time before the trap can affect enemies.
    Needle Trap: This skill now delivers a strike.
    Tripwire: This skill now delivers a strike.

    This happened March 28 2017. That strike of damage was what did it. The only nerf they made to trapper runes was reducing the stealth timer from 3 seconds to 2 in October 2015. Ranger traps themselves did remove you from stealth... with every pulse of direct damage. They did that ever since june 23, 2015 when ranger traps got a rework. Your timelines are 100% off and you are incorrect.

    So a few things here I've already gone over But first the strike was part of the change.
    Adding strike was part of the fix but only half see ranger traps had base direct damage from the get go yet didn't proc reveal.
    The reason they added that to theif traps was so reveal on strike on the back end would trigger on all traps as it does now.

    The direct damage already on ranger traps should have caused reveal too if they were being counted as a strike this was also probably adjusted on the back end in 2017. Thusly why we dont see strike added to the traps in the patch notes as its assumed by it dealing direct damage. Problem here is for years that direct damage didn't count as a strike and proc reveal and when they adjusted it in 2017 that changed.

    This leads many to believe it always did count as a strike but in fact it only began triggering reveal in 2017.

    They made a few changes to trapper runes.
    The change to trapper runes was lower stealth to 2 sec from 3 and they added super speed to compensate for removal of that extra sec of stealth October 28, 2015.
    They changed it again in 2018 to 3 sec with super speed.
    This I got wrong as I was thinking of DE stealth adjustments which there have been a few lately. So I was off by a sec but the addition of super speed and current duration is still correct.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_the_Trapper

    As for your last part on damage revealing on ranger traps your mistaken your referring to.
    June 23, 2015 Specialization update:

    All ranger traps now have a 0.5 second arming time.
    All ranger traps now have a trigger radius of 180 and an effect radius of 240.
    Now has a knockdown component on initial trap trigger.
    Bleeding stacks increased to 6 and duration increased to 6.25 seconds.
    Crippled duration increased to 2.66 seconds.
    

    Problem here is that didn't add strike or direct damage like they did for theif "in 2017 which is when traps were adjusted on back end" these skills always did base direct damage. On their back end though revealed was not applied when that damage was done by traps.

    See here's where it gets more fun in 2015 needle trap actually had a reversal done to it.

    June 23, 2015 Specialization update:

    This trap no longer deals minimal strike damage, which would previously bring the thief out of stealth.
    Increased the poison duration from 6 seconds to 10 seconds.
    

    This made trapper ghost thief the issue they then became. This shows if traps dealt strike damage in 2015 they would reveal and they actually made it so they wouldn't intentionally for awhile. However Ranger traps didn't meaning the direct damage being dealt by their traps at the time wasn't registering a strike even before this change.
    This was all reverted with the addition of strike in 2017 was added to theif traps

    March 28, 2017

    All traps created by the thief will have a 1-second arm time before the trap can affect enemies.
    Needle Trap: This skill now delivers a strike.
    

    When this was changed they adjusted direct damage from traps would trigger a strike and cause revealed on the back end.
    This change was made in 2017 and is when ranger traps began causing Revealed as with all traps as the server was now counting it as you dealing a strike.

    So

    Your timelines are 100% off and you are incorrect Partially.
    However to be fair its an easy mistake to make if you were unaware of a few Things you would not have noticed unless playing the build a fair amount.

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