What Happened to Mesmer? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

What Happened to Mesmer?

I recently picked the game back up after an extended hiatus, and found my favorite class had gone through some changes. Portal duration seems much shorter, and chronomancer lost both an entire shatter and the ability to shatter without a clone, making it feel worse than having no specialization at all. What happened to mesmer/chronomancer in the months I was gone? Am I missing something or did the profession/specialization get as heavily nerfed as it feels?

Comments

  • Mesmer needs a rework of it's core mechanic of clones/phantasms I think. As it is right now it is impossible to balance, which makes EVERYONE unhappy. Devs can't balance it for PvP without neutering it in PvE (remember how Confusion worked on release?), Mesmer players are unhappy because their profession keeps getting nerfed, yet even though it IS getting nerfed non-Mesmer players are unhappy because it is STILL not fun to play AGAINST Mesmers.

    While in GW Mes was a nightmare to balance in both PvE and GvG, the solid foundation of skill mechanics and build diversity/synergy with other professions made it less of a pain. I think in GW2 Mesmers were - and are - flawed right from the base; the whole clone/phantasm as a core mechanic. Unless this is changed, Mesmer power level will need to be nerfed again and again... Which has been the case since 2012.

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hectorim Sears.1479 said:
    While in GW Mes was a nightmare to balance in both PvE and GvG, the solid foundation of skill mechanics and build diversity/synergy with other professions made it less of a pain. I think in GW2 Mesmers were - and are - flawed right from the base; the whole clone/phantasm as a core mechanic. Unless this is changed, Mesmer power level will need to be nerfed again and again... Which has been the case since 2012.

    GW1 mes was nothing but a fast cast ele on pve until hard mode got introduced, on gvg it was not an issue as well, iirc the only time it was complained was when VoR dealt like 100 damage and you could stack other mes hexes.
    If gw2 mes was gw1 mes the cries would be waaayyy harder, that being said I prefer gw1 mes as well.

    The degenerate

  • Delofasht.4231Delofasht.4231 Member ✭✭✭

    Extended hiatus was only a few months? I took upwards towards years off the game, came back and found Mesmer pretty much exactly where I thought it would end up. Funny enough, it is still easy to hop in WvW and wreck the majority of roaming players... two or three players on each profession will end up being an issue, but the majority there are just bad. SPvP is only fun with friends, unranked is stupid, and PvE is just a matter of figuring out the AI pathing and abusing it (or for bosses: do not stand in bad circles).

    As others have noted, the fundamental issue is in the design of clones... phantasms are probably fine at this point. Clones remain an issue however, causing untold issues with the balance for the profession to the point that people are constantly suggesting ideas that fail to resolve any of the actual problems with the profession.

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 19, 2019

    @Delofasht.4231 said:
    phantasms are probably fine at this point. Clones remain an issue however

    Depends on what you think it's fine, if it's the qqers pov, yes, they're fine.
    All phantasms except berserker are trash.
    Long wind-up and low damage. In case of swordsman it doesn't even connect with npcs.

    The degenerate

  • Delofasht.4231Delofasht.4231 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Delofasht.4231 said:
    phantasms are probably fine at this point. Clones remain an issue however

    Depends on what you think it's fine, if it's the qqers pov, yes, they're fine.
    All phantasms except berserker are trash.
    Long wind-up and low damage. In case of swordsman it doesn't even connect with npcs.

    Well I think of phantasms as a damage skill that makes a clone after 2 to 6 seconds (depending on the phantasm). The fact that the damage can be avoided is no different to me than using any other skill with an animation that displays the damage before it happens so it can be avoided. The damage from them might feel low when compared to so many other professions, but they are also producing a resource for the Mesmer.

    The difference between phantasm and clone is that clones are our resource, so them being destroyable feels bad for the Mesmer that runs into an enemy or situation in which they are killed near instantly repetitively (certain professions and many PvE and WvW situations). Worse yet, for professions that are incapable of doing that we then have an opposite problem of being overwhelmed by the sheer number of things attacking one at the same time. Weaknesses and Strengths for Mesmer revolving around whether we are allowed to have clones or not feel pretty awful to play and play against in certain circumstances. Clones are ever the problem, and as long as they can be destroyed and apply conditions or are used to apply damage (through shatters by running at the enemy) we will always have issues.

    I have posted numerous times on potential ways to solve this, and there are at least 3 or 4 different ways to achieve it, and none of it needs to be done all in one step while generally maintaining some semblance of balance along the way.

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Delofasht.4231 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Delofasht.4231 said:
    phantasms are probably fine at this point. Clones remain an issue however

    Depends on what you think it's fine, if it's the qqers pov, yes, they're fine.
    All phantasms except berserker are trash.
    Long wind-up and low damage. In case of swordsman it doesn't even connect with npcs.

    Well I think of phantasms as a damage skill that makes a clone after 2 to 6 seconds (depending on the phantasm). The fact that the damage can be avoided is no different to me than using any other skill with an animation that displays the damage before it happens so it can be avoided. The damage from them might feel low when compared to so many other professions, but they are also producing a resource for the Mesmer.

    The difference between phantasm and clone is that clones are our resource, so them being destroyable feels bad for the Mesmer that runs into an enemy or situation in which they are killed near instantly repetitively (certain professions and many PvE and WvW situations). Worse yet, for professions that are incapable of doing that we then have an opposite problem of being overwhelmed by the sheer number of things attacking one at the same time. Weaknesses and Strengths for Mesmer revolving around whether we are allowed to have clones or not feel pretty awful to play and play against in certain circumstances. Clones are ever the problem, and as long as they can be destroyed and apply conditions or are used to apply damage (through shatters by running at the enemy) we will always have issues.

    I have posted numerous times on potential ways to solve this, and there are at least 3 or 4 different ways to achieve it, and none of it needs to be done all in one step while generally maintaining some semblance of balance along the way.

    I agree with the clones being indestructible and dealing no damage and I think most mesmers agree as well, the community whoever would go nuts if that happened, the monkey holo complained already that clones have too much health...
    As for phantasms, for the long animation they have their damage is simply pathetic.
    But I already said once or twice phantasm rework was one of the most awful things ever done to mesmers, phantasms used to hit harder, faster and provide faster shatters.
    It was a nerf that passed as a buff to some members of this community. But ANerf always do that to mesmers, the most flagrant example was the phantasms skills dealing like 300 damage upon skill activation, it was a nerf to stealth summoning but everyone clapped because ANerf said "hey 300 damage to help with sustain damage!".

    The degenerate

  • Delofasht.4231Delofasht.4231 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Delofasht.4231 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Delofasht.4231 said:
    phantasms are probably fine at this point. Clones remain an issue however

    Depends on what you think it's fine, if it's the qqers pov, yes, they're fine.
    All phantasms except berserker are trash.
    Long wind-up and low damage. In case of swordsman it doesn't even connect with npcs.

    Well I think of phantasms as a damage skill that makes a clone after 2 to 6 seconds (depending on the phantasm). The fact that the damage can be avoided is no different to me than using any other skill with an animation that displays the damage before it happens so it can be avoided. The damage from them might feel low when compared to so many other professions, but they are also producing a resource for the Mesmer.

    The difference between phantasm and clone is that clones are our resource, so them being destroyable feels bad for the Mesmer that runs into an enemy or situation in which they are killed near instantly repetitively (certain professions and many PvE and WvW situations). Worse yet, for professions that are incapable of doing that we then have an opposite problem of being overwhelmed by the sheer number of things attacking one at the same time. Weaknesses and Strengths for Mesmer revolving around whether we are allowed to have clones or not feel pretty awful to play and play against in certain circumstances. Clones are ever the problem, and as long as they can be destroyed and apply conditions or are used to apply damage (through shatters by running at the enemy) we will always have issues.

    I have posted numerous times on potential ways to solve this, and there are at least 3 or 4 different ways to achieve it, and none of it needs to be done all in one step while generally maintaining some semblance of balance along the way.

    I agree with the clones being indestructible and dealing no damage and I think most mesmers agree as well, the community whoever would go nuts if that happened, the monkey holo complained already that clones have too much health...
    As for phantasms, for the long animation they have their damage is simply pathetic.
    But I already said once or twice phantasm rework was one of the most awful things ever done to mesmers, phantasms used to hit harder, faster and provide faster shatters.
    It was a nerf that passed as a buff to some members of this community. But ANerf always do that to mesmers, the most flagrant example was the phantasms skills dealing like 300 damage upon skill activation, it was a nerf to stealth summoning but everyone clapped because ANerf said "hey 300 damage to help with sustain damage!".

    Heck yeah phantasm damage on summon was a nerf to stealth summoning, but I did not much mind that since I was already prepared with a different build to account for that change. I have long kept backup builds for everything... except CI being disabled, because that was really uncalled for, better to have unlinked Immobilize from dazing and have it applied with weakness or cripple application instead, only 3 good sources of that on Mesmer and none applied by a Mantra.

    Phantasms feel okay with Phantasmal Haste, but really the low damage for their animation probably should not be so low in general. Gameplay has become so focused on shatters as to make any other kind of build worth less by far, and makes the issues with Mesmer all the more difficult to balance.

    I think the community would largely be happy if Mesmer damage were reliably avoidable, half the issue with the community is simply in feeling confused and frustrated by the multitude of damage sources that a Mesmer has. It is never as simple as just avoiding a warrior swinging a giant sword around in front of them madly... Mesmer could come from anywhere and everywhere, and that feels overwhelming for a lot of the community. I get that and can sympathize, but the solution isn’t to avoid a logical solution that keeps visuals and gameplay similar to it is now while allowing for better counterplay and more reliability in skill usage with slightly more normalized damage (and not the huge variance in damage on skills like Mind Wrack, Ambushes that apply conditions, or defenses like Distortion or Cry of Pain).

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 21, 2019

    @Delofasht.4231 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Delofasht.4231 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Delofasht.4231 said:
    phantasms are probably fine at this point. Clones remain an issue however

    Depends on what you think it's fine, if it's the qqers pov, yes, they're fine.
    All phantasms except berserker are trash.
    Long wind-up and low damage. In case of swordsman it doesn't even connect with npcs.

    Well I think of phantasms as a damage skill that makes a clone after 2 to 6 seconds (depending on the phantasm). The fact that the damage can be avoided is no different to me than using any other skill with an animation that displays the damage before it happens so it can be avoided. The damage from them might feel low when compared to so many other professions, but they are also producing a resource for the Mesmer.

    The difference between phantasm and clone is that clones are our resource, so them being destroyable feels bad for the Mesmer that runs into an enemy or situation in which they are killed near instantly repetitively (certain professions and many PvE and WvW situations). Worse yet, for professions that are incapable of doing that we then have an opposite problem of being overwhelmed by the sheer number of things attacking one at the same time. Weaknesses and Strengths for Mesmer revolving around whether we are allowed to have clones or not feel pretty awful to play and play against in certain circumstances. Clones are ever the problem, and as long as they can be destroyed and apply conditions or are used to apply damage (through shatters by running at the enemy) we will always have issues.

    I have posted numerous times on potential ways to solve this, and there are at least 3 or 4 different ways to achieve it, and none of it needs to be done all in one step while generally maintaining some semblance of balance along the way.

    I agree with the clones being indestructible and dealing no damage and I think most mesmers agree as well, the community whoever would go nuts if that happened, the monkey holo complained already that clones have too much health...
    As for phantasms, for the long animation they have their damage is simply pathetic.
    But I already said once or twice phantasm rework was one of the most awful things ever done to mesmers, phantasms used to hit harder, faster and provide faster shatters.
    It was a nerf that passed as a buff to some members of this community. But ANerf always do that to mesmers, the most flagrant example was the phantasms skills dealing like 300 damage upon skill activation, it was a nerf to stealth summoning but everyone clapped because ANerf said "hey 300 damage to help with sustain damage!".

    Phantasms feel okay with Phantasmal Haste, but really the low damage for their animation probably should not be so low in general. Gameplay has become so focused on shatters as to make any other kind of build worth less by far, and makes the issues with Mesmer all the more difficult to balance.

    With phantasmal haste is the only case they feel "okay" but never more than that. Phantasm has around 1 second cast time, which is HUGE(everyone forget/ignore that), after that they have some wind up or time to summon(everyone forget/ignore that) they do pretty weak attack for like 3-4k... For kitten 20-30 seconds cooldown with a long wind up/cast times on top and complain...but its an AI ... that you can sidestep/troll with elevation levels or the just do their attack into the air because they think they can reach their target when they are clearly on different elevation level.

    I think the community would largely be happy if Mesmer damage were reliably avoidable, half the issue with the community is simply in feeling confused and frustrated by the multitude of damage sources that a Mesmer has. It is never as simple as just avoiding a warrior swinging a giant sword around in front of them madly... Mesmer could come from anywhere and everywhere, and that feels overwhelming for a lot of the community. I get that and can sympathize, but the solution isn’t to avoid a logical solution that keeps visuals and gameplay similar to it is now while allowing for better counterplay and more reliability in skill usage with slightly more normalized damage (and not the huge variance in damage on skills like Mind Wrack, Ambushes that apply conditions, or defenses like Distortion or Cry of Pain).

    I dont know how they would do it.
    Mesmer as a class feels like need a complete redesign and get rid of clones and phantasms, otherwise this QQ cycle will never end, casuls dont want to think, they want to smash the only 1 thing they have in their target.
    Clones are unfair. Signed by a dead casul in 2019

  • Kylden Ar.3724Kylden Ar.3724 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 22, 2019

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    I agree with the clones being indestructible and dealing no damage and I think most mesmers agree as well, the community whoever would go nuts if that happened, the monkey holo complained already that clones have too much health...
    As for phantasms, for the long animation they have their damage is simply pathetic.
    But I already said once or twice phantasm rework was one of the most awful things ever done to mesmers, phantasms used to hit harder, faster and provide faster shatters.
    It was a nerf that passed as a buff to some members of this community. But ANerf always do that to mesmers, the most flagrant example was the phantasms skills dealing like 300 damage upon skill activation, it was a nerf to stealth summoning but everyone clapped because ANerf said "hey 300 damage to help with sustain damage!".

    At this point, clones dealing no damage and being invulnerable is the only thing going to make Chrono useful in WvW again.

    How many times we gotta tell you GRIND IS NOT CONTENT there ANet?

    Leader of Tyrian Adventure Corp [TACO], [RaW][TACO] Alliance, Kaineng.

  • BadMed.3846BadMed.3846 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 22, 2019

    Mirage is in process of being fixed. 20% of nerfs have been applied but we're still waiting on the remaining. Nothing happened to Mesmers, they're just being adjusted to get in line with other specs.
    With 4/10 players being mesmers in most games; I'm sure there are plenty of unhappy campers who are now considering to switch their main class yet again. As they do every few months in line with balance patches.

  • The more I browse, the more convinced I am that the forums are almost strictly divided into two sub-sections:

    • The delusional mesmer mains who always consider themselves the underdog.
    • The clueless casuals who whine about mechanics that only require some studying.

    The only other class that seems to uphold such strong division is thief.

  • @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    GW1 mes was nothing but a fast cast ele on pve until hard mode got introduced

    I played mesmer from day 1 in GW1 and it was nothing like ele! It was all about punishing monsters with empathy, backfire, and interrupts (those were a must).
    If you pick ele secondary with fast cast, it is NOT mesmer anymore. Yes, mesmer had weak aoe but very strong single target damage. Also, interrupts were godly because monsters were a threat there, even in normal mode.

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aigleborgne.2981 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    GW1 mes was nothing but a fast cast ele on pve until hard mode got introduced

    I played mesmer from day 1 in GW1 and it was nothing like ele! It was all about punishing monsters with empathy, backfire, and interrupts (those were a must).
    If you pick ele secondary with fast cast, it is NOT mesmer anymore. Yes, mesmer had weak aoe but very strong single target damage. Also, interrupts were godly because monsters were a threat there, even in normal mode.

    Until hard mode was introduced you did just that, pick Me/E and used Fast Casting attribute to cast ele skills in conjunction with energy recovery mes skills, this was the reason Fast Casting was nerfed to only affect mes skills unless skills had a cast time of more than 2 sec.
    Mes become only more used when hard mode was put on game due to mes skills being armor ignoring and ele ones doing garbage damage because of foes' armor rating.

    The degenerate

  • @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    Until hard mode was introduced you did just that, pick Me/E and used Fast Casting attribute to cast ele skills in conjunction with energy recovery mes skills, this was the reason Fast Casting was nerfed to only affect mes skills unless skills had a cast time of more than 2 sec.
    Mes become only more used when hard mode was put on game due to mes skills being armor ignoring and ele ones doing garbage damage because of foes' armor rating.

    Because you did that doesn't mean everybody did it. I did not and I know many others that played with mesmer skills.
    If I wanted to do damage, playing ele was better because you go up to 16 to attribute, plus, energy storage was good and somehow better than fast casting for casting big ele spells.

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aigleborgne.2981 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    Until hard mode was introduced you did just that, pick Me/E and used Fast Casting attribute to cast ele skills in conjunction with energy recovery mes skills, this was the reason Fast Casting was nerfed to only affect mes skills unless skills had a cast time of more than 2 sec.
    Mes become only more used when hard mode was put on game due to mes skills being armor ignoring and ele ones doing garbage damage because of foes' armor rating.

    Because you did that doesn't mean everybody did it. I did not and I know many others that played with mesmer skills.
    If I wanted to do damage, playing ele was better because you go up to 16 to attribute, plus, energy storage was good and somehow better than fast casting for casting big ele spells.

    We're talking meta here.
    Even if you played ele with 16 you would lose in terms of dps with a fast casting Me/E since you could just machine gun ele skills.

    The degenerate