Thank you for temporarily blocking CI trait in PvP

[ZDragon.3046]

@Delofasht.4231 said:A full rework on a trait is hardly the solution, as the trait is just another byproduct of the Clone design being broken. The reason CI ends up good is because it allows Mesmer to line up everything and then the damage sources become consistent. Once consistent damage is seen, it will definitely be viewed as too strong, that is the inherent problem with the profession though. Mesmer is not consistent because half the time Shatters will never reach the enemy or will be performed with less than the maximum number of clones.

You make a good point here actually this i can admit is a good way of wording things.

Fully rework the source of the profession’s problem first, then adjust the numbers and traits; doing any of these before changing that is just going to be nerfing a symptom of the real problem. Clones should be viewed as a resource, not sources of deception or vessels to carry damage to the enemy. For more information on tackling the main issue, read basically any of my previous posts where much detail has gone into a number of ways to resolve the issue and maintain some semblance of the same visual design with slightly different coded effects. Due to the design of elites being built on Core design, some amount of recoding to some traits would be necessary. Resolution to the problems of the profession as a whole would be resolved and balance could be maintained as future changes would no longer be adjusting symptoms of an inherent broken design.

The deception part does add a bit of sustainability to the mesmer though even more so in a fight that involves multiple foes. That said i think they are counted as both right now. A resource and a source of deception / damage carriers.

Another point worth noting, the majority may indeed feel CI is an actual problem, but the devs should know from their history that the majority of the player base is often wrong on what the actual problem is. The frustration from the Mesmer community is that we know this is not the issue, we even state what it is often, consistency and reliability. Remove the deficiencies by resolving the core issue first, then adjust the over performing traits and skills.

This part i still dont agree with. CI is a problem (with the immobilize attached to it) Even under the idea that mesmer was not based on AI clones and phantoms to deal some of its damage the idea of locking down many other professions via stuns and immobilize at the same time is not healthy. Mesmer at any given time has multiple sources to proc this trait too so while it may not be the main issue as you see it. It is technically still a issue of being too oppressive. As I said reapers chill got the same treatment back when it first released. Players were either forced into taking extra clear specifically for chill or ideally locked down to easily by hearty chill durations. The majority of players did not like this... even though it was just as you say a core issue. As core necromancer is well we dont need to go there you know the state its in. and as you point out the elites are built on top. Yet chill application and duration was still nerfed in several ways regardless without a rework to the core profession.

While what you say is likely a possibility that core mesmer is in need of a rework many other professions see the same kind of deal and have been waiting longer / just as long as mesmer. Mesmer has seen 2 reworks now in the past year or two and this issue with CI mirage as they called it out will likely lead to a 3rd.

As for what you say about the devs listening to the player base..... when???ITs rare they do listen to the player base so this is kind of out of the ordinary for them.

In short, CI makes the usually inconsistent Shatters and Clones a lot more consistent by applying an Immobilize to allow everything to be lined up, showing us how strong Mesmer could be if we were not reliant on a resource that could be destroyed and damage that can simply be outrun or disrupted on route to it’s target.

What you say is not wrong but the way it goes about doing it is very oppressive to many other professions and play styles. Its not very healthy regardless of how mesmer is reworked something like this cant stay this powerful. It should have never been this way to start with really. It slipped through as other meta options were rolled for a while. Just like scepter 3 hitting hard as a truck for as long as it did before its nerf that should have never stayed that way for that long for the example.

Before anet start doing core reworks they should probably at least make the game a bit more fair for everyone rather than leaving things in a unhealthy state till they can get around to solving the underlying issue.

This would be my guess as to what they could be going for. As some people have stated its likely that mirage is gonna get the chrono treatment its going to gain some kind of loss or trade off for taking the elite spec like almost all the other professions have now. Mirage and chrono slipped by without these things for a very long time so of course people wont like things being taken away from them because they dont see others losing them at the same time. Fact is Mesmer is just late to the party for the goals anet is forcing on everyone.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:We can dodge instant skills but you can't dodge 1 to 3 sec skills.does a single dodge provide 3 seconds of i frames? No... but you know what does the f4 shatter.Plasma was buffed 3 times before getting 2 boons nerfed.The point is is that it was previously nerfed and cant you just remove the boons like you do on other classes.Wish I had a 2nd health bar, wish I could deal 15k with one skill, wish I could use dodge to create and close gaps, and so on and so on.You got me the health bar, 15k... hah Scepter 3 before it was nerf you had a skill that could do 15k in one shot on a condi weapon no less, ummm im pretty sure mesmer has some of the best tools for gap closing actually, should we continueAnd lastly as a necro you have some ways to get condis back to mirage, and mirage has awful condi cleanse.That is true i wont dienie that how ever its hard to do that while you are stunned in place and cannot turn to face the mirage to use some of those skills. You could point out plauge signet but then the issue of that is that mirage's have this habit of sporadically entering iframes, so while a necro is being loaded up with conditions, dazed, immoblized, they must also look for the real mirage in the event that mirage breaks target, find it, select it, then watch to make sure that mirage is not in iframe then attempt to use a skill which must be instant instant cast (plauge signet is the only active skill you can use to fling condis back while stunned.) so yeah its doable but more challenging than you might think.

plasma is a godmode against cmesmer, even if you somehow manage to remove it, there is another one followed by daggerstorm followed by another steal into 2 more plasmas.I dont agree here sorry you get 1 of every boon for a few seconds. Thats not that big of a deal to be honest.

Every class has to deal with dagger storm thats not relevant to your argument because its something every profession that fights a thief has to deal with so dont bring that into this.

The topic you lead up to was plasma... i shared my thoughts on plasma so you added dagger storm... no... you dont get to do that we were talking about the plasma..

im pretty sure mesmer has some of the best tools for gap closing actually, should we continue <--- ?????? can you list them for me ?

Blink?????Juant?Sword skill 3 (swap)?Axe 3 (Axes of Symmetry)?Sword ambush (Mirage Thrust)?Mirage Advance ????all of these skills that blink you to a person or can be used to do so??? No Good gap closers at all????Compared to alot of professions you certainly have good handful of options.

You aint no thief but i mean come on now.... lets be real ;)

i have no issue using arcane thevery against other mesmers, it has 1/4s casttime, so you should have even less isues using plague signet.If i was invulnerable and could not be dazed for 4s or could doge damage while immobilized and or stunned im sure i wouldn't have a problem doing that either ;)You sould try using skills that throw back conditions with a different class to get a better understanding for everyone who does not mainly play mesmer.

regardless of where you keep trying to go with this the majority of the community has deemed CI mirage or CI mesmers in general 100% unfun to fight against because no one likes being locked down for 10 seconds straight. The tools to counter this strat are not reliable in other words in most cases if you escape you are immidately locked down again. Simply put it's obnoxious!

you dont balance for the top minority and you dont balance for the new minority you balance for the genera average majority if the majority sees it as a problem then its a problem.

Your frustration is how i felt when anet made chill and cripple no longer effect movement skills and when reapers chill durations got nerfed to the floor. Its done and over with once its done its done.

Be thankful you are getting another mesmer rework again. this will be like the 3rd one in 2 years or something. Some classes have not seen a full rework to some of their traits yet and are still waiting in line.

Daggerstorm hurts mesmer then it hurts other classes, it wipes off clones. and mesmer cant cover it with any of its dodges/blocks so he is forced to lose at least 1/4 hp, unless he blinks away. The reason i mentioned it, is becouse daggerstorm buys enaught time for steal to come off cd to use godmode plasma on.And " just handfull of buffs" please....

Might -> more damageFury -> more damageRetaliation -> more damageResistance -> compleate damage immunity for 2,5s.with 2 plasmas thats 5s of not taking any damage, whatsoever while having insane outpot, followed by 3s of damage immunity from daggerstorm that chunks for 1/4 - 1/2 hp then followed by another 5s godmodeplasma.Thats how fighting thief looks, as a cmirage.

"" i have no issue using arcane thevery against other mesmers, it has 1/4s casttime, so you should have even less isues using plague signet.

If i was invulnerable and could not be dazed for 4s or could doge damage while immobilized and or stunned im sure i wouldn't have a problem doing that either ;) ""

you can use plague signed while stuned/dazed so I dont see how that is an issue, altho i suppose it can be blocked? cant be blinded. so look for aegis, only counter.

As for gapclosers, you said Mesmers have SOME OF THE BEST TOOLS FOR GAP CLOSING.and you listed jaunt ( 30s cd, 450 range 0 damage )sword 3 ( 1 damage long casttime )ambush 1 ( uses dodge, long cast time no damage )axe 3 is alright, its straight dps lose over using axe 1 but its less shit then other options.

mesmer has ALOT of options, alot of shitty options, thats why nobody uses them.blink is good ( shitty version of shadow step )staff 2 is good, and those are all the good options.

And you deeply mistake how I feel about it, same as others.I dont give rats kitten about the change itself, i give a damn about the reason and the way its implemented.The way they handled the change is an INSULT to a paying customer and I will treat it as such.

And number of reworks dont matter, I played league of legends for 10 years, 10 years or constantly having my role changed to hell, every freaking year, NOTHING to be thankfull about. Devs either get it right or they dont, so far i made 2 pve builds since i started playing and they trashed both of them in 1 go, now i siwtched to mirage and im seeing forums full of whining about ambushes, with the way it is going im gonna have to spec away 4 different times within 4 months and that is just ridiculous.

[Tayga.3192]

@ZDragon.3046 said:Blink?????Jaunt?I agree, good mobility.

Axe 3 (Axes of Symmetry)?Bugged skill. Axe is sadly inferior to scepter after nerfs.

Sword ambush (Mirage Thrust)?Sword skill 3 (swap)?Sword has been nerfed to death. Also, since when power mirage is considered good?

Mirage Advance ????Nice joke lol

Compared to alot of professions you certainly have good handful of options.Reminder that mirages can't use dodges to gap close as reliably as other classes.

Let's only compare used skills. I won't count condi mesmer since it's ranged.Warrior: Better (perma move speed as the cherry on the top)Guardian: WorseRevenant: BetterRanger: Equalish, a bit better since owl existsThief: Obviously way betterEngineer: Holo is ranged and better in holo mode. Scrapper has only one gap closerElementalist: Can be a bit sticky but worseNecro: Worse.

Only 3 out of 8 is worse than mirage. Lol.

[Delofasht.4231]

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Delofasht.4231 said:A full rework on a trait is hardly the solution, as the trait is just another byproduct of the Clone design being broken. The reason CI ends up good is because it allows Mesmer to line up everything and then the damage sources become consistent. Once consistent damage is seen, it will definitely be viewed as too strong, that is the inherent problem with the profession though. Mesmer is not consistent because half the time Shatters will never reach the enemy or will be performed with less than the maximum number of clones.

You make a good point here actually this i can admit is a good way of wording things.

Fully rework the source of the profession’s problem first, then adjust the numbers and traits; doing any of these before changing that is just going to be nerfing a symptom of the real problem. Clones should be viewed as a resource, not sources of deception or vessels to carry damage to the enemy. For more information on tackling the main issue, read basically any of my previous posts where much detail has gone into a number of ways to resolve the issue and maintain some semblance of the same visual design with slightly different coded effects. Due to the design of elites being built on Core design, some amount of recoding to some traits would be necessary. Resolution to the problems of the profession as a whole would be resolved and balance could be maintained as future changes would no longer be adjusting symptoms of an inherent broken design.

The deception part does add a bit of sustainability to the mesmer though even more so in a fight that involves multiple foes. That said i think they are counted as both right now. A resource and a source of deception / damage carriers.

Another point worth noting, the majority may indeed feel CI is an actual problem, but the devs should know from their history that the majority of the player base is often wrong on what the actual problem is. The frustration from the Mesmer community is that we know this is not the issue, we even state what it is often, consistency and reliability. Remove the deficiencies by resolving the core issue first, then adjust the over performing traits and skills.

This part i still dont agree with. CI is a problem (with the immobilize attached to it) Even under the idea that mesmer was not based on AI clones and phantoms to deal some of its damage the idea of locking down many other professions via stuns and immobilize at the same time is not healthy. Mesmer at any given time has multiple sources to proc this trait too so while it may not be the main issue as you see it. It is technically still a issue of being too oppressive. As I said reapers chill got the same treatment back when it first released. Players were either forced into taking extra clear specifically for chill or ideally locked down to easily by hearty chill durations. The majority of players did not like this... even though it was just as you say a core issue. As core necromancer is well we dont need to go there you know the state its in. and as you point out the elites are built on top. Yet chill application and duration was still nerfed in several ways regardless without a rework to the core profession.

While what you say is likely a possibility that core mesmer is in need of a rework many other professions see the same kind of deal and have been waiting longer / just as long as mesmer. Mesmer has seen 2 reworks now in the past year or two and this issue with CI mirage as they called it out will likely lead to a 3rd.

As for what you say about the devs listening to the player base..... when???ITs rare they do listen to the player base so this is kind of out of the ordinary for them.

In short, CI makes the usually inconsistent Shatters and Clones a lot more consistent by applying an Immobilize to allow everything to be lined up, showing us how strong Mesmer could be if we were not reliant on a resource that could be destroyed and damage that can simply be outrun or disrupted on route to it’s target.

What you say is not wrong but the way it goes about doing it is very oppressive to many other professions and play styles. Its not very healthy regardless of how mesmer is reworked something like this cant stay this powerful. It should have never been this way to start with really. It slipped through as other meta options were rolled for a while. Just like scepter 3 hitting hard as a truck for as long as it did before its nerf that should have never stayed that way for that long for the example.

Before anet start doing core reworks they should probably at least make the game a bit more fair for everyone rather than leaving things in a unhealthy state till they can get around to solving the underlying issue.

This would be my guess as to what they could be going for. As some people have stated its likely that mirage is gonna get the chrono treatment its going to gain some kind of loss or trade off for taking the elite spec like almost all the other professions have now. Mirage and chrono slipped by without these things for a very long time so of course people wont like things being taken away from them because they dont see others losing them at the same time. Fact is Mesmer is just late to the party for the goals anet is forcing on everyone.

A temporary fix will not resolve the issue, only lead to something else taking it’s place. I have already found a few things that have been working out so far, steps to improve the reliability of the skills by usage of other parts of the profession. A number of players are probably onto the same ideas as myself, and will result in the changes made being useless against those new builds. Thus a temporary fix will not actually resolve anything, and the issues of the core will remain, as something else will low or no counterplay takes it’s place. Thus player complaints will remain, and the true source of the issue will remain, and Mesmer builds will still have no counterplay because if -insert wrong reason here-; it will be the same cycle all over again.

A good suggestion I have seen for CI was to give it a bolt line shot effect with a fast but not too fast travel time, avoidable by strafing with good situational awareness, harder to avoid at closer range. Such a change requires no other traits or skills being tinkered with, as it is a function of player positional skills and timing. In my opinion, hard crowd control (ones that keep a player from performing actions like movement or actual skills) should always be ones that can be avoided by simply moving out of the way.

If they would tackle the source of the problem, then constant cry for Mesmer nerfs would also go away and they could then focus on core reworks for other professions.

[ZDragon.3046]

@Tayga.3192 said:

@"ZDragon.3046" said:Blink?????Jaunt?I agree, good mobility.

Axe 3 (Axes of Symmetry)?Bugged skill. Axe is sadly inferior to scepter after nerfs.Understandable that this one might not be the most reliable ill give you that point

Sword ambush (Mirage Thrust)?Sword skill 3 (swap)?Sword has been nerfed to death. Also, since when power mirage is considered good?might not be meta but ive seen it and still you cant deny that the option is there.

Mirage Advance ????Nice joke lolI dont understand how this is a joke its an option probably not the best option over say "blink" but it is an option.

Compared to alot of professions you certainly have good handful of options.Reminder that mirages can't use dodges to gap close as reliably as other classes.Most classes dont use dodges to gap close in the first place, Maybe warrior..... the others not so much they have skills for that. Using a dodge to gap close is almost the worst way to waste a dodge, Unless you are a class like thief or warrior that can gain endurance back quickly its not a thing. so i dont think this is a valid argument to say as other class like every class does this because its most certainly not the case. Note when i say dodge im talking about the base dodge not skills that happen to be evades that can be manipulated to gap close ie withdraw, reposting shadows etc.

Let's only compare used skills. I won't count condi mesmer since it's ranged.Warrior: Better (perma move speed as the cherry on the top)Perma move speed is not a true valid argument imo multiple professions can have this and you would have to list it against all of them equally not to mention every other profession also has to deal with it, some of which you have already pointed out have worse mobility than the mesmer, how ever warrior does have al ot of weapon gap closers as expected they should. Their ranged attacks and effectiveness are very lacking across any build.Guardian: WorseGuarian is worse but they have a few blinks, exceptional damage, but can be very squishy, They also have blocks and other boons to help them sustain ideally guardian outside of firebrand is probably the most balanced profession imoRevenant: BetterShiro has one of the best gap closers i however it does require a target which limits it a bit.Ranger: Equalish, a bit better since owl existsRanger I would say is better when it comes to gap closing they also have good ranged pressure for when they cant gap close.Thief: Obviously way betterYeah. But this is expected.Engineer: Holo is ranged and better in holo mode. Scrapper has only one gap closerYou only point out in holo mode here much like reaper you have to kite it or challenge it with a plan not mindlessly it can be done though. IF i can kite it with necro you can kite it with mesmer for sure.Elementalist: Can be a bit sticky but worseDepends here my knowlage of ele is pretty limited and the most common kind of ele is weaver passive aoe burn. That set up does limit them in mobility a good bit so i would say its probably a bit worse.Necro: Worse.Without a doubt

Only 3 out of 8 is worse than mirage. Lol.

Mirage still has plenty of options for sure. If mirage has gap closers or not is not the biggest factor.I think anet called out mirage instead of just saying "mesmer" is because1 Its the most played mesmer e spec in spvp at the moment2 the trade offs for taking it are not very intense for whats gained in the process.3 they have the condi damage pressure, sustain, and ontop of IC was even bonus lockdown pressure.

As many people have said shouldn't be surprised if in 3 months or so mirage gets a rework like chrono did that forces a trade off and along with that will come reworks or tweaks to IC and afew other traits in the core mesmers kit.

[Tayga.3192]

@"ZDragon.3046" said:

Mirage Advance ????Nice joke lolI dont understand how this is a joke its an option probably not the best option over say "blink" but it is an option.That's why I said "Only used skills". Mirage Advance and Mirage Ambush are very bad skills that doesn't worth taking.

I think anet called out mirage instead of just saying "mesmer" is because1 Its the most played mesmer e spec in spvp at the momentBecause Chrono has been killed and core isn't really worth it. Though I play core sometimes.

2 the trade offs for taking it are not very intense for whats gained in the process.I don't mind damage nerfs to mirage, but they need to revert unnecessary nerfs like portal nerf.

3 they have the condi damage pressure, sustain, and ontop of IC was even bonus lockdown pressure.I wouldn't mind buffing player damage and nerfing clone damage. Of course competing grandmasters in mirage line should be fixed too. That way IH won't be a must have.

As many people have said shouldn't be surprised if in 3 months or so mirage gets a rework like chrono did that forces a trade off and along with that will come reworks or tweaks to IC and afew other traits in the core mesmers kit.If tradeoff means killing, I would just stop playing.

[ZDragon.3046]

@Delofasht.4231 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Delofasht.4231 said:A full rework on a trait is hardly the solution, as the trait is just another byproduct of the Clone design being broken. The reason CI ends up good is because it allows Mesmer to line up everything and then the damage sources become consistent. Once consistent damage is seen, it will definitely be viewed as too strong, that is the inherent problem with the profession though. Mesmer is not consistent because half the time Shatters will never reach the enemy or will be performed with less than the maximum number of clones.

You make a good point here actually this i can admit is a good way of wording things.

Fully rework the source of the profession’s problem first, then adjust the numbers and traits; doing any of these before changing that is just going to be nerfing a symptom of the real problem. Clones should be viewed as a resource, not sources of deception or vessels to carry damage to the enemy. For more information on tackling the main issue, read basically any of my previous posts where much detail has gone into a number of ways to resolve the issue and maintain some semblance of the same visual design with slightly different coded effects. Due to the design of elites being built on Core design, some amount of recoding to some traits would be necessary. Resolution to the problems of the profession as a whole would be resolved and balance could be maintained as future changes would no longer be adjusting symptoms of an inherent broken design.

The deception part does add a bit of sustainability to the mesmer though even more so in a fight that involves multiple foes. That said i think they are counted as both right now. A resource and a source of deception / damage carriers.

Another point worth noting, the majority may indeed feel CI is an actual problem, but the devs should know from their history that the majority of the player base is often wrong on what the actual problem is. The frustration from the Mesmer community is that we know this is not the issue, we even state what it is often, consistency and reliability. Remove the deficiencies by resolving the core issue first, then adjust the over performing traits and skills.

This part i still dont agree with. CI is a problem (with the immobilize attached to it) Even under the idea that mesmer was not based on AI clones and phantoms to deal some of its damage the idea of locking down many other professions via stuns and immobilize at the same time is not healthy. Mesmer at any given time has multiple sources to proc this trait too so while it may not be the main issue as you see it. It is technically still a issue of being too oppressive. As I said reapers chill got the same treatment back when it first released. Players were either forced into taking extra clear specifically for chill or ideally locked down to easily by hearty chill durations. The majority of players did not like this... even though it was just as you say a core issue. As core necromancer is well we dont need to go there you know the state its in. and as you point out the elites are built on top. Yet chill application and duration was still nerfed in several ways regardless without a rework to the core profession.

While what you say is likely a possibility that core mesmer is in need of a rework many other professions see the same kind of deal and have been waiting longer / just as long as mesmer. Mesmer has seen 2 reworks now in the past year or two and this issue with CI mirage as they called it out will likely lead to a 3rd.

As for what you say about the devs listening to the player base..... when???ITs rare they do listen to the player base so this is kind of out of the ordinary for them.

In short, CI makes the usually inconsistent Shatters and Clones a lot more consistent by applying an Immobilize to allow everything to be lined up, showing us how strong Mesmer could be if we were not reliant on a resource that could be destroyed and damage that can simply be outrun or disrupted on route to it’s target.

What you say is not wrong but the way it goes about doing it is very oppressive to many other professions and play styles. Its not very healthy regardless of how mesmer is reworked something like this cant stay this powerful. It should have never been this way to start with really. It slipped through as other meta options were rolled for a while. Just like scepter 3 hitting hard as a truck for as long as it did before its nerf that should have never stayed that way for that long for the example.

Before anet start doing core reworks they should probably at least make the game a bit more fair for everyone rather than leaving things in a unhealthy state till they can get around to solving the underlying issue.

This would be my guess as to what they could be going for. As some people have stated its likely that mirage is gonna get the chrono treatment its going to gain some kind of loss or trade off for taking the elite spec like almost all the other professions have now. Mirage and chrono slipped by without these things for a very long time so of course people wont like things being taken away from them because they dont see others losing them at the same time. Fact is Mesmer is just late to the party for the goals anet is forcing on everyone.

A temporary fix will not resolve the issue, only lead to something else taking it’s place. I have already found a few things that have been working out so far, steps to improve the reliability of the skills by usage of other parts of the profession. A number of players are probably onto the same ideas as myself, and will result in the changes made being useless against those new builds. Thus a temporary fix will not actually resolve anything, and the issues of the core will remain, as something else will low or no counterplay takes it’s place. Thus player complaints will remain, and the true source of the issue will remain, and Mesmer builds will still have no counterplay because if -insert wrong reason here-; it will be the same cycle all over again.

Well keep in mind a core rework on the level you are speaking off can take months of planing and then time to actually build it out, test it, and then it has to go through a whole approval process ideally its alot of work for a single profession. Even more so now that alot of people who built the core foundation mechanics of the core professions are not at the company. Messing around inside that core profession mechanics of any profession is the hardest part of making new elite specs or changing things about them in general.

So while i agree a perma fix is better than a temporary one some times its better to roll out the temporary fix until a time when a perma fix can be looked into. Mesmer will not be the only profession to get this treatment either. Other professions have had bandaid fixes that are still holding and waiting for a perma fix thats probably never going to come. Scourge was told that it would gain more support for the constant nerf cuts to its damage to make it be more of a support as it was suppose to be "This never happened"

A good suggestion I have seen for CI was to give it a bolt line shot effect with a fast but not too fast travel time, avoidable by strafing with good situational awareness, harder to avoid at closer range. Such a change requires no other traits or skills being tinkered with, as it is a function of player positional skills and timing. In my opinion, hard crowd control (ones that keep a player from performing actions like movement or actual skills) should always be ones that can be avoided by simply moving out of the way.

I dont know how i feel about this statement because to be honest it kind of dodges around the bush. For example turning IC into a bolt that flys out hit the person which would immobilize them.. ok... but then you say skills that stop a person from doing actions or using skill should always be ones that can be avoided by simply moving out of the way. Then i have to look at something like MoD Power lock and thats practically impossible to simply "move out of the way" but does exactly what you said. It stops a person from performing skills.

I mean honestly ive fought some mirages still using MoD without IC and if they cc you properly they can still get killer condi burst pretty quick in just a few mistakes. In truth IC is not needed period. IC is just extra on top as you said that makes it more consistent if a person cant use skills and cant move of course its consistent they are a free target and there for it applies an extra layer of pressure on top of everything else. Its not something thats handled well by many professions along side the condition pressure. I honestly think it just should not immobilize to start off thats probably one of the best changes that can be made to it without totally doing a full rework.

If they would tackle the source of the problem, then constant cry for Mesmer nerfs would also go away and they could then focus on core reworks for other professions.

You need to also consider something else hereIf they actually culled mesmer properly when they cull the other professions back people wouldnt be crying for mesmer nerfs.Mesmer skips quite a few balance patches where a lot of things are toned down, mesmer will often remain untouched.

For example IC should have gotten changed in this previous balance patch.It literally was an way issue before the balance patch not after it. Lets not pretend like people just all of a sudden came and started having an uproar about it. I think people were 100% expecting it to get nerfed and when it didn't that caused the uproar to really initiate. Just as mantra sage firebrand IC combos got ignored. So of course people continued to play it because its super dominating and it works very well against the majority of builds on other professions with like 2 maybe 3 exceptions. Everything else can be considered free or at a considerable disadvantage.

Mesmer gets away with skipping true balance and then when it actually gets toned down 2 or 3 balance patches later after other professions already got toned down people want to act surprised and shocked like "People just bad! People cry too much!!, Your class didnt get nerfed!" The reality is yes other people professions got nerfed it just happened 2 or 3 balance patches ago while mesmer just slid on through the cracks.

[ZDragon.3046]

@Tayga.3192 said:

@"ZDragon.3046" said:

Mirage Advance ????Nice joke lolI dont understand how this is a joke its an option probably not the best option over say "blink" but it is an option.That's why I said "Only used skills". Mirage Advance and Mirage Ambush are very bad skills that doesn't worth taking.

I think anet called out mirage instead of just saying "mesmer" is because1 Its the most played mesmer e spec in spvp at the momentBecause Chrono has been killed and core isn't really worth it. Though I play core sometimes.

Killed.. you mean balanced... like i just finished telling some one else. People act very shocked when mesmer gets proper balancing "for the current time what ever that maybe" it usually happens 2 or 3 balance patches after every other profession gets a hard balance they didnt like.

The patch that forced many trade offs on preffsions that didnt currently have them on their elite specs. was what 1 or 2 balance patches ago.... during that time elite specs like druid, daredevil, etc got trade offs forced onto them because they did not have them.As usual Mesmer slipped through this patch completely untouched. Chrono nor Mirage saw a change that acted as forcing a trade off onto them for taking their elite specs.

Now chrono gets a trade off forced onto it later on down the line after every other profession has already pushed their pain of forced trade offs under the rug and you want to say its "killed" no... its balanced just like everyone else. It just feels more personal because it happened later on a patch where no one else got the same treatement at the same time. Because they got it in a previous patch.

2 the trade offs for taking it are not very intense for whats gained in the process.I don't mind damage nerfs to mirage, but they need to revert unnecessary nerfs like portal nerf.

Thats not the trade offs im talking about right now the trade off mirage takes for applying the espec or what some people want to call a trade off is that "You dont roll when you dodge" But ideally the mesmer keeps all of its other of its base functions optionally they still keep the same same shatters, still keeps distortion, gains quite a bit of condi offensive pressure and powerful new tools like jaunt, the power to dodge while channeling skills or while under hard cc, etc etc.

Ideally the only loss is that you dont roll when you dodge which while there is a skill curve to handling that in itself im not quite sure if its officially enough to be warranted as a trade off for the gain benefits.

Ideally mirage keeps everything core mesmer has but gets better offensive pressure and sustain there is no "loss" mechanically

3 they have the condi damage pressure, sustain, and ontop of IC was even bonus lockdown pressure.I wouldn't mind buffing player damage and nerfing clone damage. Of course competing grandmasters in mirage line should be fixed too. That way IH won't be a must have.

To be frank mirage damage is already quite high. As some one else says it just tends to be inconsistent and IC was a way of forcing that consistently on people but then again what other class has consistent damage. No persons damage is promised to be consistent when you are fighting another player who has options to defend themselves. You cant read minds in real life so you cant be promised consistent damage no matter what you play. When there is a way to force that damage to be consistent in a manner that it removes targets ability to react or potentially defend or even move for that matter its a problem.

As many people have said shouldn't be surprised if in 3 months or so mirage gets a rework like chrono did that forces a trade off and along with that will come reworks or tweaks to IC and afew other traits in the core mesmers kit.If tradeoff means killing, I would just stop playing.

To be frank if thats how you think about it then you should just stop playing because your mindset is the idea that things should not be fairYour idea is that you shouldn't get the same treatment and getting it means the profession is killed.

Do you think daredevil asked for a shorter unblockable steal not at all.What about Durids asking for reduced pet stats... not at all....Reaper wanted more damage but they certainly didnt want more life force drain

To be frank the changes chrono got are no different from what anyone else got over time chrono was just one of the last to get it so it feels more personal and unfair. Because the changes other professions got are now forgotten to you.

Now if you like the changes or not thats totally fair for you to have your personal opinon on clearly you didnt like what happened but i mean most people who play other professions didnt like the changes forced on them either. Trust me Mesmers are not alone on this, you guys are just late to the party.

[Tayga.3192]

@"ZDragon.3046" said:

If tradeoff means killing, I would just stop playing.

To be frank if thats how you think about it then you should just stop playing because your mindset is the idea that things should not be fairYour idea is that you shouldn't get the same treatment and getting it means the profession is killed.

Do you think daredevil asked for a shorter unblockable steal not at all.I never said Swipe was a good idea as I love d/p.What about Durids asking for reduced pet stats... not at all....I never asked for pet nerfs in this way.

Reaper wanted more damage but they certainly didnt want more life force drainI never asked for this too.

To be frank the changes chrono got are no different from what anyone else got over time chrono was just one of the last to get it so it feels more personal and unfair. Because the changes other professions got are now forgotten to you.Yes and they are all bad changes. I hope all off them get reverted.

Now if you like the changes or not thats totally fair for you to have your personal opinon on clearly you didnt like what happened but i mean most people who play other professions didnt like the changes forced on them either. Trust me Mesmers are not alone on this, you guys are just late to the party.I never said other HoT specs deserved "killing tradeoffs".

[Abelisk.5148]

@Arekai.5698 said:So how long till anet makes power mes viable in high/AT play?How about, instead of nerfing condi mes for the 10th time, buff power?

Zeromis from Team USA in NA is a power mirage, they have been winning nearly all monthlies here.

[praqtos.9035]

@"LolLookAtMyAP.8394" said:

@Arekai.5698 said:So how long till anet makes power mes viable in high/AT play?How about, instead of nerfing condi mes for the 10th time, buff power?

Zeromis from Team USA in NA is a power mirage, they have been winning nearly all monthlies here.Since you dont know, at NA they have no competition to begin with, doesnt matter what Zeromis would play they would win everyone and everything

[yusayu.3629]

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@yusayu.3629 said:

@BadMed.3846 said:

@yusayu.3629 said:Again, people cry about Mesmer because they don't know how to play and ANet listens to them.

If people don't know how to use stability, reflects and condicleanse, ANet shouldn't cater to those people.

Again mesmers use a pointless argument to defend broken mechanics. It can't really end here. CI is just the start. We're waiting on Mantras change next. Mirage is far from fixed. It is utterly broken still.

Yeah, I can understand how Mirage is very annoying if you're mediocre or at most slightly above average in PvP. Like, I seriously understand that concern.

But PvP shouldn't be balanced for people who don't know that Stability prevents the Mirage from getting a CI proc and who can't dodge Arcane Thievery.

We have already cover this. Mesmer has plentiful options to rip that away and multiple sources on any given build to proc CI to be frank the easiest way to balance CI remove the immobilize period.. the rest is fine. If you want to be this critical about it while you say pvp shouldn't be balanced around the average majority it also certainly shouldn't be balanced around the top elite either. Thats how you get people to stop playing pvp.

How can you rip Stab away as Mesmer? Give me 3 sources of boonstrip. Arcane Thievery, that's one obvious way (i.e. you can easily dodge it) and then what? Like, I actually just went through every single trait/skill, cause I might've missed something, but unless you were one of the madmen running Torch, that's it. You literally have exactly one boonstrip with an incredibly obvious cast time that your opponent should dodge anyway (because even if it doesn't rip stab, it's still a pretty powerful skill).

Lets just stop pretending like anet has never culled something that was too strong before it just happens to be mesmers turn for something else that slipped through the cracks.

It has always been Mesmer, mostly because Mesmer is the most annoying class to play against. People have always whined about Mesmer. I still dunno why, maybe it's people getting confused by clones who then whine in the forum because they threw their burst combo into a clone. I dunno.

If all your success depended on CI procs then you certainly are not any better than the average player who fails to dodge Arcane thievery.

Well, obviously it was the core skill of the build, and apparently people whined enough to have ANet literally ban the skill from PvP because people couldn't be bothered to learn to play against the build. Yes, the build has other strengths, but without CI it doesn't really work and learning when/how to proc CI was a good part of the build.

[Counter Terrorist.7421]

Until fix is in place this was a good solution. Thanks Anet.

[GutterRat.1269]

Anet doesn't read this forum. Go kittenpost in the PVP one.

[Arekai.5698]

@"LolLookAtMyAP.8394" said:

@Arekai.5698 said:So how long till anet makes power mes viable in high/AT play?How about, instead of nerfing condi mes for the 10th time, buff power?

Zeromis from Team USA in NA is a power mirage, they have been winning nearly all monthlies here.

Anything having to do with NA PVP doesnt hold a point.

[BadMed.3846]

@Arekai.5698 said:

@"LolLookAtMyAP.8394" said:

@Arekai.5698 said:So how long till anet makes power mes viable in high/AT play?How about, instead of nerfing condi mes for the 10th time, buff power?

Zeromis from Team USA in NA is a power mirage, they have been winning nearly all monthlies here.

Anything having to do with NA PVP doesnt hold a point.

Oh and Mirage is still under powered right? Stop kidding yourself and accept you're defending the MOST broken spec in game.

[Yoci.2481]

Every single roaming class is better than mesmer. That is a fact.

[Delofasht.4231]

@BadMed.3846 said:

@Arekai.5698 said:

@"LolLookAtMyAP.8394" said:

@Arekai.5698 said:So how long till anet makes power mes viable in high/AT play?How about, instead of nerfing condi mes for the 10th time, buff power?

Zeromis from Team USA in NA is a power mirage, they have been winning nearly all monthlies here.

Anything having to do with NA PVP doesnt hold a point.

Oh and Mirage is still under powered right? Stop kidding yourself and accept you're defending the MOST broken spec in game.

Funny thing is, we actually somewhat agree with you here, MESMER is broken, the only profession with a destroyable resource who actually becomes more vulnerable AND do less damage when their clones are dead. Less defenses and offenses simply by taking out their resource, but also by being able to fool their AI.

The devs do need to fix the CORE problem, and not the symptoms. This means specifically not listening to people like you, because you see the issue with it being too much of everything, without seeing why that is the case.

Keys to solving all Mesmer issues, increase reliability of skills reduce variance, increase low end damage, remove defensive abilities being as hard linked to clone existence, shift damage and control elements from AI onto the Mesmer active skills instead.

[BadMed.3846]

@Delofasht.4231 said:

@BadMed.3846 said:

@Arekai.5698 said:

@"LolLookAtMyAP.8394" said:

@Arekai.5698 said:So how long till anet makes power mes viable in high/AT play?How about, instead of nerfing condi mes for the 10th time, buff power?

Zeromis from Team USA in NA is a power mirage, they have been winning nearly all monthlies here.

Anything having to do with NA PVP doesnt hold a point.

Oh and Mirage is still under powered right? Stop kidding yourself and accept you're defending the MOST broken spec in game.

Funny thing is, we actually somewhat agree with you here, MESMER is broken, the only profession with a destroyable resource who actually becomes more vulnerable AND do less damage when their clones are dead. Less defenses and offenses simply by taking out their resource, but also by being able to fool their AI.

The devs do need to fix the CORE problem, and not the symptoms. This means specifically not listening to people like you, because you see the issue with it being too much of everything, without seeing why that is the case.

Keys to solving all Mesmer issues, increase reliability of skills reduce variance, increase low end damage, remove defensive abilities being as hard linked to clone existence, shift damage and control elements from AI onto the Mesmer active skills instead.

Funny thing is that I totally believe in what Chromancer got and really hope that Mirage will get the same fair play balance treatment. I'll leave it up to the developers as they handled the Chrono nerfs extremely well.

[Delofasht.4231]

@BadMed.3846 said:

@Delofasht.4231 said:

@BadMed.3846 said:

@Arekai.5698 said:

@"LolLookAtMyAP.8394" said:

@Arekai.5698 said:So how long till anet makes power mes viable in high/AT play?How about, instead of nerfing condi mes for the 10th time, buff power?

Zeromis from Team USA in NA is a power mirage, they have been winning nearly all monthlies here.

Anything having to do with NA PVP doesnt hold a point.

Oh and Mirage is still under powered right? Stop kidding yourself and accept you're defending the MOST broken spec in game.

Funny thing is, we actually somewhat agree with you here, MESMER is broken, the only profession with a destroyable resource who actually becomes more vulnerable AND do less damage when their clones are dead. Less defenses and offenses simply by taking out their resource, but also by being able to fool their AI.

The devs do need to fix the CORE problem, and not the symptoms. This means specifically not listening to people like you, because you see the issue with it being too much of everything, without seeing why that is the case.

Keys to solving all Mesmer issues, increase reliability of skills reduce variance, increase low end damage, remove defensive abilities being as hard linked to clone existence, shift damage and control elements from AI onto the Mesmer active skills instead.

Funny thing is that I totally believe in what Chromancer got and really hope that Mirage will get the same fair play balance treatment. I'll leave it up to the developers as they handled the Chrono nerfs extremely well.

Which takes us back to the simple statement that you are biased against Mesmer as a profession and will always ask for nerfs after a build comes along that seems unfair to you. Fair play is so subjective, and what you perceive as fair now is likely to change over time and then you will ask for nerfs on anything that doesn’t match your perception of fair at that point.

[viquing.8254]

@BadMed.3846 said:

@Delofasht.4231 said:

@BadMed.3846 said:

@Arekai.5698 said:

@"LolLookAtMyAP.8394" said:

@Arekai.5698 said:So how long till anet makes power mes viable in high/AT play?How about, instead of nerfing condi mes for the 10th time, buff power?

Zeromis from Team USA in NA is a power mirage, they have been winning nearly all monthlies here.

Anything having to do with NA PVP doesnt hold a point.

Oh and Mirage is still under powered right? Stop kidding yourself and accept you're defending the MOST broken spec in game.

Funny thing is, we actually somewhat agree with you here, MESMER is broken, the only profession with a destroyable resource who actually becomes more vulnerable AND do less damage when their clones are dead. Less defenses and offenses simply by taking out their resource, but also by being able to fool their AI.

The devs do need to fix the CORE problem, and not the symptoms. This means specifically not listening to people like you, because you see the issue with it being too much of everything, without seeing why that is the case.

Keys to solving all Mesmer issues, increase reliability of skills reduce variance, increase low end damage, remove defensive abilities being as hard linked to clone existence, shift damage and control elements from AI onto the Mesmer active skills instead.

Funny thing is that I totally believe in what Chromancer got and really hope that Mirage will get the same fair play balance treatment. I'll leave it up to the developers as they handled the Chrono nerfs extremely well.

Yeah the problem is that you don't play chrono.Can you record you playing chrono in PvP to see how "they handled the Chrono nerfs extremely well" please ?You can also search for a chrono streaming actually if you can't record we sure wil enjoy this.I mean vids say more than writting.