Some dicusion about builds diversity

[Jab.7309]

Hi, i was looking for a new class to play and have a closer look at all classes, i noticed something and consider it a good reason to start talking aboutbuild diversity.

So a little backstory:I used started to play engi (my first char to hit 80) when PoF droped, mostly becouse i loved new holosmith and liked idea of scrapper (like playing tanks), but playing core engi i tried condi build and power, stuck with power, condi was too slow and noticed i have only one build option, i hoped holo will change it, and somewhat it did, but once again a saw only one possible build and get bored with usnig mostly same skills and traits and make a breake in game.Then i've started to play guardian, mostly becouse i've heard it had most build diversity and i wasn't disapointed, even going just power i made so many builds and so many of them worked and were different in playsyle and feeling of controls (gs radiance, mace mistical rebuke, staff scepter ranged build, sw/focus/torch pover condi hybrid even (that was super cool having all that crits with focus burning everything around me, ut i'm getting sidetracked)); Recently i've hit 80 and started to play condi firebrand and thats even more diffence, can't wait to unlock full fb and dh.BUT while having fun with guardian i have few problems with it, some weapons feel lacking, not in damage but in animations and feeling (scepter for example, 1 is SO boring, 2 is just circle on ground that deals dmg and buffs you (most boring symbol) and 3 immo + vun with mediocre animation... nothing about this weapon (exept for dmg) makes me wanna play it, no cool skills, no cool interactions, nothing, and scepter while my being for me most boring isn't only one, gs i feel like is just spin to win nad staff while super cool it 1 chain looks not that impactful, considering it fires huge balls that explode, some knockback animation would be welcome), mobility is a nightmare, all playstyles are rather slow and easy to play and some utiliies look boring (either animation (most signets, meditations and shouts) or effects (mostly shouts and meditations)) they are usefull, but i like it when spell that i can use once every miute done sothing more than give few boons or remove few conditions while making blue flash. (I don't say that all guardian animations are bad, he has some of best anims with torch, shield, sword, hammer, mace, spirit weapons, consecrations etc, but some that are lacking (mayby becouse contrast) are lacking alot and it hurts me)While not abandoning my guardian i think it's graet time to start looking for a second toon, that while still having build diversity is mobile, has more ranged options and mayby has some better animations. As i looked into diffrent profeions i noticed that most look like they have huge problem with build diversity:

• warrior having all these weapons uses mostly GS and same utilities, while using same specializations
• revenant with utilities and specializations bound to legends is very limiting builds diversity (that makes me angry, it has so good animations and interesting skills but cant play with them)
• ranger seems to be ranged brother of guarian in this department, all weapons seem useful, utilities have same problems as guardians, mobiity is better, but some less working builds (my evade sw/dg build was awful (i had 45 lvl and two full specs))
• necro has few weapon choises, great utilities (some of most fun in game) and many builds, but playstyles are all the same, play safe until you can change, deal dmg, repeat, builds mostly vary in how you survive without shroud (lifesteal (cool well immortal build build recomend trying) or minions), scourge could help it a bit but i don't have necro that high to test it
• mesmer has nice weapon and utility skills but again not that much in playstyle changing traits and mostly you make clones and blow them up, repeatI left thiefs and ele, couse think that they have most diverse buildsThiefs while being only dmg dealers, have some realy tanky builds, and all they builds feel so different from each other becouse weapons are so different, they utilities are fun and look great, only steal is meh, but you can make it usefull with traits.Ele on the other hand has least weapons, but they are diffrent and each weapon has few paystyles, you can seet in one element, you can switch alot (i tried dagger/dagger frash air, power fire, and condi earth builds and they all playd so diffrent with fire being mid range combo field blasting, fresh air was close range running around, while earth was more kiting going in for big hit and cc, than out to stack bleed.

So there are my thoughts on the topic, I'm not expirienced player so could have bad first impression, i'd love to get your opinion about builds diversity, is it low, why and how to improve it.

tldr: In my (rather short) expirience with a game i noticed that most classes has some problems with build diversity (either boring or clearly better spec, weapon and utilities) I'm wondering is this feeling good, why diversity is so low, which class hes least problem with it and how to improve it.

[starlinvf.1358]

The TL:DR response to the TL;DR is that the problems seem to surround the Devs having multiple different balance teams trying to decide what classes need what changes to resolve perceived problems in one game mode, and it seemingly being implemented by someone else taking requests from those teams. Theres also been a huge, ongoing struggle since HOT Raids to balance 3 drastically different game modes, using the same series of Power Creep/Power Nerf approaches. Which is why when theres major changes for one mode, it has an immediate, and sweeping impact in the other game modes. While I'm onboard for having a unified skill system between the modes, they've never taken proper advantage of this in PvE and Raid encounter design..... hence why Raid has caused so many problems in Espec design at such a fundamental level.

[Jab.7309]

@starlinvf.1358 said:The TL:DR response to the TL;DR is that the problems seem to surround the Devs having multiple different balance teams trying to decide what classes need what changes to resolve perceived problems in one game mode, and it seemingly being implemented by someone else taking requests from those teams. Theres also been a huge, ongoing struggle since HOT Raids to balance 3 drastically different game modes, using the same series of Power Creep/Power Nerf approaches. Which is why when theres major changes for one mode, it has an immediate, and sweeping impact in the other game modes. While I'm onboard for having a unified skill system between the modes, they've never taken proper advantage of this in PvE and Raid encounter design..... hence why Raid has caused so many problems in Espec design at such a fundamental level.

Yeah, as a developer myself i can imagine how hard it has to be to balance all of the classes i all game modes, but still i don't see direct connection with build diversity, they can make some skills boring to make balance easier, i understand that, but i don't want all builds to be balanced, but playable in casual game, and they have made some traits or skills work differently in different game modes, so they already have code for that, in my opinion best anet can do is try allowing more builds with interesting play style changing traits and if balance if off in one mode just change it in that mode, but speaking these, i must say that I have no expirience with creating online games and work with big teams (i'm indie dev) so i might not notice some limiting factors

[starlinvf.1358]

@Jab.7309 said:

@"starlinvf.1358" said:The TL:DR response to the TL;DR is that the problems seem to surround the Devs having multiple different balance teams trying to decide what classes need what changes to resolve perceived problems in one game mode, and it seemingly being implemented by someone else taking requests from those teams. Theres also been a huge, ongoing struggle since HOT Raids to balance 3 drastically different game modes, using the same series of Power Creep/Power Nerf approaches. Which is why when theres major changes for one mode, it has an immediate, and sweeping impact in the other game modes. While I'm onboard for having a unified skill system between the modes, they've never taken proper advantage of this in PvE and Raid encounter design..... hence why Raid has caused so many problems in Espec design at such a fundamental level.

Yeah, as a developer myself i can imagine how hard it has to be to balance all of the classes i all game modes, but still i don't see direct connection with build diversity, they can make some skills boring to make balance easier, i understand that, but i don't want all builds to be balanced, but playable in casual game, and they have made some traits or skills work differently in different game modes, so they already have code for that, in my opinion best anet can do is try allowing more builds with interesting play style changing traits and if balance if off in one mode just change it in that mode, but speaking these, i must say that I have no expirience with creating online games and work with big teams (i'm indie dev) so i might not notice some limiting factors

The connection is in how the handle "context" of those builds. If the build is independent from a group comp, they try to balance it around 1v1 match ups, leading to the kind of the Nerfs, Buffs and mechanical changes to combat THE specific build's performance. This would normally sound like the right thing to do.... but its what they target to make those changes that always come off as backasswards. Like Nerfing CORE Mesmer traits for years as their way of addressing Chorno Tank's ability to generate Alacrity and Quickness and ability to bypass certain Raid mechanics (via distortion).... rather then fixing the encounter mechanics, or modifying distortion's immunity effect so that its vulnerable to the certain types of Raid mechanics that demand it.

When builds are part of a group comp, they've progressively narrowed the components of that build so that entire Spec lines can only be used one specific way. Again, Raids is the biggest offender, as the Dev's attempts to eliminate "role compression" by forcing each build to choose a single function in mutual exclusion, or increase the "Hybrid Tax". Role Compression is ultimately the only thing this game has to differentiate itself from other MMORPG Raids, since the Devs have been pretty insistent on building the raids using more WoW-esque metrics. There are people who want it this way, but Personally I find it to be the Antithesis of what this game's Buildcraft greatest strengths are.... the ability to hybridize build concepts. You see the Dev's efforts to fight this in the way they power balance builds. Functionally singled threaded builds, like DareDevil, Deadeye, Herald, and Druid all have to Spec DEEP into a single mechanical choice to offset the fact that they don't hybridize well. But because that peak performance is the ONLY thing that defines that build's viability, they either have to be Top tier, or the Top Tier dragged down into parity with it. The History of Ele's Meteor shower is a testament to what happens when they get overly fixated on Metrics, to the point they start disregarding secondary mechanical applications most of the game's original skills were founded on.

We are losing Build diversity, because the Devs seem to be drifting into a mind set that views Especs as whole Classes, rather then a mechanical extension of an Archetype. And you only start to realize this is a problem when you notice they've been pidgin holing builds hard for the last year or so, with how the Revanent's historical problems with its buildcarft is now being mirrored in other Espec lines. But what makes this situation so frustrating is that many builds trade practically everything to be good at one specific thing, and the Dev's will then Cap that without opening a side channel to alleviate the loss of flexibility. And because not all classes have the foudnational designs to properly support hybrid builds via stats (because they lowered the performance floor across the board), the loss of hybrid via mechanics is insanely frustrating when stats can't make up the difference.

[Jab.7309]

Thanks for insight, I realy hope that this will change someday and devs encourage some more builds