So now thieves have traps removed we can remove reveal on trap Damage

[Astralporing.1957]

@Karnn.4569 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:You may not know this, but all this "knee jerk patch" did was to fix the unintentional inconsistency in traps and stealth interaction. The reason why traps didn't reveal originally was not because it was planned so. Reveal from the beginning was meant to trigger on all damage. No, the reason for that was much simpler - the source of damage for traps was not the player, but the trap gizmo. When devs introduced reveal mechanic, they overlooked that, so, when it was eventually brought to their attention (in a very spectacular way), they simply corrected that omission. If anything, it took them

too long

to do that. Damaging while not breaking stealth should never have happened in the first place.

Well aware yet they added a rune that worked the way stealth traps worked before such omission and therefore need to still fix the issue.You might want to look up that rune again, because nothing in the way it works suggests it supports only the broken version of the traps. You just prefer the old interaction, because it was stronger.

In short mistakes if left in a game long enough that content is built around its current function it generally isn't considered a mistake any more.Its current function is being used as a basis to make content in this case runes.But are your assumption about the rune of the trapper even correct? You prefering the way it worked with traps before doesn't mean it's not working right now. At best it may mean it's weaker that you would want.

Which also means my conclusion that this is a problem needing fixed is still correct.At best, it may mean a change to the rune of the trapper may be needed due to it being too weak now (if it is too weak now). It definitely doesn't mean that we should bring back an erroneous mechanic just so the rune might work better.

[Super Hayes.6890]

If the rune was changed because of abuse by the thief class and they can no longer abuse it there is no reason the change shouldn't be reverted. However, back when this rune was nerfed there were a lot more Anet staff members. Don't get your hopes up on this making the priority list even though it should be reverted.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Super Hayes.6890 said:If the rune was changed because of abuse by the thief class and they can no longer abuse it there is no reason the change shouldn't be reverted. However, back when this rune was nerfed there were a lot more Anet staff members. Don't get your hopes up on this making the priority list even though it should be reverted.There was no abuse of the rune - what got abused was the unintentional interaction between stealth and trap damage, that allowed players to attack and yet remain stealthed (something that Anet decided should never happen, when they introduced the Revealed debuff). So, the change that Anet did aimed at the core of the problem - the fact that trap damage didn't apply revealed to the player that put down that trap. That is what got fixed - the rune itself wasn't changed.

[Karnn.4569]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Karnn.4569 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:You may not know this, but all this "knee jerk patch" did was to fix the unintentional inconsistency in traps and stealth interaction. The reason why traps didn't reveal originally was not because it was planned so. Reveal from the beginning was meant to trigger on all damage. No, the reason for that was much simpler - the source of damage for traps was not the player, but the trap gizmo. When devs introduced reveal mechanic, they overlooked that, so, when it was eventually brought to their attention (in a very spectacular way), they simply corrected that omission. If anything, it took them

too long

to do that. Damaging while not breaking stealth should never have happened in the first place.

Well aware yet they added a rune that worked the way stealth traps worked before such omission and therefore need to still fix the issue.You might want to look up that rune again, because nothing in the way it works suggests it supports only the broken version of the traps. You just prefer the old interaction, because it was stronger.

Apparently you didn't read the issue I have Its that due to the changes it can now be used against you the person supposedly benefiting from the 6 piece bonus.

Your bias towards stealth shows here as this is a presumption based on your bias not what I've stated anywhere above.

In short mistakes if left in a game long enough that content is built around its current function it generally isn't considered a mistake any more.Its current function is being used as a basis to make content in this case runes.But are your assumption about the rune of the trapper even correct? You prefering the way it worked with traps before doesn't mean it's not working right now. At best it may mean it's weaker that you would want.

I as most prefer things that function properly being able to use the rune against the player negating its effect isn't working properly this is not a preference its a fact.No other rune can be used against the player using it in such a way that the rune negates its own bonus I'm aware of.

"correct me if you can think of a rune that can be used to negate its own effect please"I'm pretty certain the 6 piece bonus was to push people to not mix and match as much as use full sets.This needs fixed as it can be turned on you the bonus seems fine the pitfall needs some work.

Which also means my conclusion that this is a problem needing fixed is still correct.At best, it may mean a change to the rune of the trapper may be needed due to it being too weak now (if it is too weak now). It definitely doesn't mean that we should bring back an erroneous mechanic just so the rune might work better.

No you could make traps throwable and make them dump all stacks on target when triggered so we can stand with scourges and wave at people as commanders scream "traps on point!"

The benefit of the rune was making it more "Trapper like" the stealth gives you cover long enough to offset the deploy and reposition time. I'm not asking for the 6 peice set to be made stronger just not self defeating in combat.

so yes Fixed as in no longer self defeating.

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Super Hayes.6890 said:If the rune was changed because of abuse by the thief class and they can no longer abuse it there is no reason the change shouldn't be reverted. However, back when this rune was nerfed there were a lot more Anet staff members. Don't get your hopes up on this making the priority list even though it should be reverted.There was no abuse of the rune - what got abused was the unintentional interaction between stealth and trap damage, that allowed players to attack and yet remain stealthed (something that Anet decided should never happen, when they introduced the Revealed debuff). So, the change that Anet did aimed at the core of the problem - the fact that trap damage didn't apply revealed to the player that put down that trap. That is what got fixed - the rune itself wasn't changed.

Actually the rune was changed a year after being added to the game it had a stealth reduction of 1 sec and added super speed went over that in my posts above.As to why who knows in this case as I said before I prefer 3 sec of stealth with super speed to the 4sec stealth it had in 2014.

The rune was abused by theif as its stealth added to the sheer amount of stealth they could get from other sources.This combo made it extremely cheese I even posted those builds and all the info above feel free to look it over.As someone who plays trapper ranger alot when the change to damage happened I felt it was justified to fix what was going on with theif.This did however start the issues with the rune I mentioned before.

Also I'd like to add this isn't a big huge thing needing a massive debate.The issue is more a nuisance problem to those who still play the build and if it can be helped to make quality of life for users of the rune a bit better it would be appreciated that's all.

[Super Hayes.6890]

Thanks Astral. I didn't realize the rune wasn't modified.

[Astralporing.1957]

@"Karnn.4569" said:Apparently you didn't read the issue I have Its that due to the changes it can now be used against you the person supposedly benefiting from the 6 piece bonus.

How? by applying revealed to you as soon as the rune damages someone? How is that using the rune against you?

Your bias towards stealth shows here as this is a presumption based on your bias not what I've stated anywhere above.Actually, when devs introduced revealed debuff, they mentioned why they were introducing it. Hint: it had nothing to do with traps, but everything to do with stealth.

I as most prefer things that function properly being able to use the rune against the player negating its effect isn't working properly this is not a preference its a fact.No, it is not. It is just your own opinion that the rune should work one way and not the other.

No other rune can be used against the player using it in such a way that the rune negates its own bonus I'm aware of.The rune doesn't negate its own bonus. Damage from traps does - but the damage doesn't need to happen immediately after deploying a trap, and not all traps deal damage (one ranger trap actually heals).

Does it make the usage of the rune's set bonus very narrow? Sure it does. Doesn't mean the rune is broken. Nor it means that a change to some core principles need to happen to make the rune usable (instead of, for example, changing the set bonus to something more generally useful).

At best, it may mean a change to the rune of the trapper may be needed due to it being too weak now (if it is too weak now). It definitely doesn't mean that we should bring back an erroneous mechanic just so the rune might work better.

No you could make traps throwable and make them dump all stacks on target when triggered so we can stand with scourges and wave at people as commanders scream "traps on point!"

The benefit of the rune was making it more "Trapper like" the stealth gives you cover long enough to offset the deploy and reposition time. I'm not asking for the 6 peice set to be made stronger just not self defeating in combat.

so yes Fixed as in no longer self defeating.

Again, this can be done by changing the rune set bonus. It doesn't necessitate changing some of the base principles in order to make one not necessarily well thought rune set more viable than it is now.

The rune was abused by theif as its stealth added to the sheer amount of stealth they could get from other sources.True, it helped, but then thieves were already able to go permastealth even before. What they

couldn't

do (because revealed was introduced specifically to prevent that possibility) was to remain in stealth (or immediately reenter stealth) after dealing damage.

This combo made it extremely cheese I even posted those builds and all the info above feel free to look it over.As someone who plays trapper ranger alot when the change to damage happened I felt it was justified to fix what was going on with theif.This did however start the issues with the rune I mentioned before.You didn't treat is as an issue with rune - you kept treating it as if the issue was that traps break stealth.

[Karnn.4569]

@"Astralporing.1957" said:

How? by applying revealed to you as soon as the rune damages someone? How is that using the rune against you?

If you cant see how that can be used against you after I explained it in detail more than once shows its a waste of time to argue with your other points.Hint" Its to do with how traps are currently placed making it so players can easily activate and purge to force reveal you.

Actually, when devs introduced revealed debuff, they mentioned why they were introducing it. Hint: it had nothing to do with traps, but everything to do with stealth.

The way you worded this is extremely non descriptive I'm going to assume you mean added to traps as Revealed was in game at launch to basic stealth.You seem to think Revealed was added then adjusted later to include trap damage and even say the devs introduced Revealed debuff showing you made that up.

No, it is not. It is just your own opinion that the rune should work one way and not the other.

Cherry picked skipping points I made to back it up; not bothering.

The rune doesn't negate its own bonus. Damage from traps does - but the damage doesn't need to happen immediately after deploying a trap, and not all traps deal damage (one ranger trap actually heals).

Yes well aware of healing spring; a bonus to a thing that cancels the bonus is self defeating.No other runes seem to have this issue it didn't become a problem until the reveal adjustment.

Does it make the usage of the rune's set bonus very narrow? Sure it does. Doesn't mean the rune is broken. Nor it means that a change to some core principles need to happen to make the rune usable (instead of, for example, changing the set bonus to something more generally useful).

So much reading comp fail went over all this; again not bothering. Easy to criticize yet basic understanding of usage in game leads to lack of any sort of solution offered your simply arguing to argue.

True, it helped, but then thieves were already able to go permastealth even before. What they couldn't do (because revealed was introduced specifically to prevent that possibility) was to remain in stealth (or immediately reenter stealth) after dealing damage.

Yet all the trapper theif builds shut down by the change used the rune funny huh. Even posted all that above..

You didn't treat is as an issue with rune - you kept treating it as if the issue was that traps break stealth.

So you've yet to put two and two together the issue with the rune is the change to the core mechanic that hurts the rune. Went over all this in so much detail the fact I'm taking the time to respond to you in itself is ridiculous.So much I dont even.

I'm done with you; post what you want I've made my point above as to what the purpose of the thread was you casually omitted it; even when placed at the end of my last response to you.

This is not a debate it was simply to bring this to the attention of the devs and let them do what they will or nothing at all.

Its why even though Ive been with Anet since they left Blizzard. Prior to the development of WoW and created their studio and became NCsofts first game and launched GW1 a half a year before WoW in April 28, 2005; where I played until GW2 release.I rarely post on the forums I'm a lurking dinosaur and dont have the time or patience for arguing on the internet its a waste of my time.

But dont think I dont watch the forums many do and dont post here.Point has been made; Its up to the devs to do whatever they want.

[Sojourner.4621]

@Karnn.4569 said:Right and that was added to stop perma stealth thieves using traps and spamming caltrops and staying invisible as they weren't attacking themselves and therefore it didn't break stealth its still an issue however more so for ranger builds.

Now traps are removed Thieves dont really have access to do that anymore attacking with weapon skills still reveals.

For example ranger traps usually apply a specific condi if I'm trying to lay more than one trap right after the first while in my few sec of stealth any player with a basic purge which is everyone can hop on my first trap and force reveal me then burst me. This allows an enemy to actively negate the rune I'm using and even use it against me.

Another option is just to make stealth from the rune not effected by trap damage triggers as theif wont be able to trigger the rune anymore anyway. This only applies to damage from traps while in stealth using this rune.

They didn't change this. Ranger traps always revealed you, because ranger traps always had an initial hit of damage before applying their conditions. What they changed was that thieves did NOT have an initial damage hit, so they added one to those skills in order to make it remove the thief from stealth. The change you are complaining about doesn't exist and isn't what happened.

[Karnn.4569]

@Sojourner.4621 said:

@"Karnn.4569" said:Right and that was added to stop perma stealth thieves using traps and spamming caltrops and staying invisible as they weren't attacking themselves and therefore it didn't break stealth its still an issue however more so for ranger builds.

Now traps are removed Thieves dont really have access to do that anymore attacking with weapon skills still reveals.

For example ranger traps usually apply a specific condi if I'm trying to lay more than one trap right after the first while in my few sec of stealth any player with a basic purge which is everyone can hop on my first trap and force reveal me then burst me. This allows an enemy to actively negate the rune I'm using and even use it against me.

Another option is just to make stealth from the rune not effected by trap damage triggers as theif wont be able to trigger the rune anymore anyway. This only applies to damage from traps while in stealth using this rune.

They didn't change this. Ranger traps always revealed you, because ranger traps always had an initial hit of damage before applying their conditions. What they changed was that thieves did NOT have an initial damage hit, so they added one to those skills in order to make it remove the thief from stealth. The change you are complaining about doesn't exist and isn't what happened.

Ranger traps didn't reveal you I mained ranger and theif and when the runes were added in 09, 2014 and still main all med classes. The Reveal on trap damage didn't start until later after the release of POF and the damage reveal patch.This tells me your unfamiliar with how it worked and I played trap ranger every day for years.

Also since posting the meta battle builds for theif they seem to have been removed.https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Thief-_Condition_Trapperhttps://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Thief_-_Ghost_ThiefPaste em in google should still find em in metabattle

Also a warning this video may give you cancer.

This is how bad it was. when thief used it.

[Sojourner.4621]

@Karnn.4569 said:

@Sojourner.4621 said:

@Karnn.4569 said:Right and that was added to stop perma stealth thieves using traps and spamming caltrops and staying invisible as they weren't attacking themselves and therefore it didn't break stealth its still an issue however more so for ranger builds.

Now traps are removed Thieves dont really have access to do that anymore attacking with weapon skills still reveals.

For example ranger traps usually apply a specific condi if I'm trying to lay more than one trap right after the first while in my few sec of stealth any player with a basic purge which is everyone can hop on my first trap and force reveal me then burst me. This allows an enemy to actively negate the rune I'm using and even use it against me.

Another option is just to make stealth from the rune not effected by trap damage triggers as theif wont be able to trigger the rune anymore anyway. This only applies to damage from traps while in stealth using this rune.

They didn't change this. Ranger traps always revealed you, because ranger traps always had an initial hit of damage before applying their conditions. What they changed was that thieves did NOT have an initial damage hit, so they added one to those skills in order to make it remove the thief from stealth. The change you are complaining about doesn't exist and isn't what happened.

Ranger traps didn't reveal you I mained ranger and theif and when the runes were added in 09, 2014 and still main all med classes. The Reveal on trap damage didn't start until later after the release of POF and the damage reveal patch.This tells me your unfamiliar with how it worked and I played trap ranger every day for years.

Also since posting the meta battle builds for theif they seem to have been removed.

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Thief-_Condition_Trapper

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Thief_-_Ghost_Thief

Paste em in google should still find em in metabattle

Also a warning this video may give you cancer.

This is how bad it was. when thief used it.

I'm aware of how bad the ghost thief was. However, they did not make the placing or triggering of traps reveal you. They added a hit of damage to the traps to make it so that they would trigger stealth reveal. They MAY have done the same to ranger traps, that I'm not 100% sure of since the only trap I ever relied on for stealth on ranger was the healing spring. But as a main thief since launch I can tell you with 100% certainty that the thief traps before the patch did not do any damage, they JUST applied conditions... and the nerf to ghost thief was that they added a direct damage tick to the beginning of all of them.

The exact patch notes for this read:ThiefTraps: All traps created by the thief will have a 1-second arm time before the trap can affect enemies.Needle Trap: This skill now delivers a strike.Tripwire: This skill now delivers a strike.

This happened March 28 2017. That strike of damage was what did it. The only nerf they made to trapper runes was reducing the stealth timer from 3 seconds to 2 in October 2015. Ranger traps themselves did remove you from stealth... with every pulse of direct damage. They did that ever since june 23, 2015 when ranger traps got a rework. Your timelines are 100% off and you are incorrect.

[Karnn.4569]

@Sojourner.4621 said:

@Karnn.4569 said:

@Sojourner.4621 said:

@Karnn.4569 said:Right and that was added to stop perma stealth thieves using traps and spamming caltrops and staying invisible as they weren't attacking themselves and therefore it didn't break stealth its still an issue however more so for ranger builds.

Now traps are removed Thieves dont really have access to do that anymore attacking with weapon skills still reveals.

For example ranger traps usually apply a specific condi if I'm trying to lay more than one trap right after the first while in my few sec of stealth any player with a basic purge which is everyone can hop on my first trap and force reveal me then burst me. This allows an enemy to actively negate the rune I'm using and even use it against me.

Another option is just to make stealth from the rune not effected by trap damage triggers as theif wont be able to trigger the rune anymore anyway. This only applies to damage from traps while in stealth using this rune.

They didn't change this. Ranger traps always revealed you, because ranger traps always had an initial hit of damage before applying their conditions. What they changed was that thieves did NOT have an initial damage hit, so they added one to those skills in order to make it remove the thief from stealth. The change you are complaining about doesn't exist and isn't what happened.

Ranger traps didn't reveal you I mained ranger and theif and when the runes were added in 09, 2014 and still main all med classes. The Reveal on trap damage didn't start until later after the release of POF and the damage reveal patch.This tells me your unfamiliar with how it worked and I played trap ranger every day for years.

Also since posting the meta battle builds for theif they seem to have been removed.

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Thief-_Condition_Trapper

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Thief_-_Ghost_Thief

Paste em in google should still find em in metabattle

Also a warning this video may give you cancer.

This is how bad it was. when thief used it.

I'm aware of how bad the ghost thief was. However, they did not make the placing or triggering of traps reveal you. They added a hit of damage to the traps to make it so that they would trigger stealth reveal. They MAY have done the same to ranger traps, that I'm not 100% sure of since the only trap I ever relied on for stealth on ranger was the healing spring. But as a main thief since launch I can tell you with 100% certainty that the thief traps before the patch did not do any damage, they JUST applied conditions... and the nerf to ghost thief was that they added a direct damage tick to the beginning of all of them.

The exact patch notes for this read:ThiefTraps: All traps created by the thief will have a 1-second arm time before the trap can affect enemies.Needle Trap: This skill now delivers a strike.Tripwire: This skill now delivers a strike.

This happened March 28 2017. That strike of damage was what did it. The only nerf they made to trapper runes was reducing the stealth timer from 3 seconds to 2 in October 2015. Ranger traps themselves did remove you from stealth... with every pulse of direct damage. They did that ever since june 23, 2015 when ranger traps got a rework. Your timelines are 100% off and you are incorrect.

So a few things here I've already gone over But first the strike was part of the change.Adding strike was part of the fix but only half see ranger traps had base direct damage from the get go yet didn't proc reveal.The reason they added that to theif traps was so reveal on strike on the back end would trigger on all traps as it does now.

The direct damage already on ranger traps should have caused reveal too if they were being counted as a strike this was also probably adjusted on the back end in 2017. Thusly why we dont see strike added to the traps in the patch notes as its assumed by it dealing direct damage. Problem here is for years that direct damage didn't count as a strike and proc reveal and when they adjusted it in 2017 that changed.

This leads many to believe it always did count as a strike but in fact it only began triggering reveal in 2017.

They made a few changes to trapper runes.The change to trapper runes was lower stealth to 2 sec from 3 and they added super speed to compensate for removal of that extra sec of stealth October 28, 2015.They changed it again in 2018 to 3 sec with super speed.This I got wrong as I was thinking of DE stealth adjustments which there have been a few lately. So I was off by a sec but the addition of super speed and current duration is still correct.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_the_Trapper

As for your last part on damage revealing on ranger traps your mistaken your referring to.June 23, 2015 Specialization update:

All ranger traps now have a 0.5 second arming time.All ranger traps now have a trigger radius of 180 and an effect radius of 240.Now has a knockdown component on initial trap trigger.Bleeding stacks increased to 6 and duration increased to 6.25 seconds.Crippled duration increased to 2.66 seconds.

Problem here is that didn't add strike or direct damage like they did for theif "in 2017 which is when traps were adjusted on back end" these skills always did base direct damage. On their back end though revealed was not applied when that damage was done by traps.

See here's where it gets more fun in 2015 needle trap actually had a reversal done to it.

June 23, 2015 Specialization update:

This trap no longer deals minimal strike damage, which would previously bring the thief out of stealth.Increased the poison duration from 6 seconds to 10 seconds.

This made trapper ghost thief the issue they then became. This shows if traps dealt strike damage in 2015 they would reveal and they actually made it so they wouldn't intentionally for awhile. However Ranger traps didn't meaning the direct damage being dealt by their traps at the time wasn't registering a strike even before this change.This was all reverted with the addition of strike in 2017 was added to theif traps

March 28, 2017

All traps created by the thief will have a 1-second arm time before the trap can affect enemies.Needle Trap: This skill now delivers a strike.

When this was changed they adjusted direct damage from traps would trigger a strike and cause revealed on the back end.This change was made in 2017 and is when ranger traps began causing Revealed as with all traps as the server was now counting it as you dealing a strike.

So

Your timelines are 100% off and you are incorrect Partially.However to be fair its an easy mistake to make if you were unaware of a few Things you would not have noticed unless playing the build a fair amount.