Please gut Condi Daredevil and Acro Staff Daredevil

[BarnacleBoy.6918]

This is an amazing thread. It’s great how much discussion is happening, but its pretty unfortunate how the goalposts keep moving, and how arguments are being based off of much less than what trevor provided...

Enough with the semantics. This class is very obviously over performing... if literal videos and indepth discussions aren't enough evidence, maybe the fact that there are ~4 thief's in nearly every match should help persuade you.

Every leaderboard FOTM junkie I know is playing condi thief.

[foste.3098]

@BarnacleBoy.6918 said:This is an amazing thread. It’s great how much discussion is happening, but its pretty unfortunate how the goalposts keep moving, and how arguments are being based off of much less than what trevor provided...

Enough with the semantics. This class is very obviously over performing... if literal videos and indepth discussions aren't enough evidence, maybe the fact that there are ~4 thief's in nearly every match should help persuade you.

Every leaderboard FOTM junkie I know is playing condi thief.

That is because the thread is about 2 different builds and then mysterious 3rd condi staff build hijacked the thread for a page or so. But yea i agree conndi s/d daredevil is annoying af mostly due to easy poison application, and i do think adjustments are necessary; see my comments about deadly ambition.

[Abelisk.5148]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@"LolLookAtMyAP.8394" said:The repeater condi thief build is actually very good against Staff DrD, Trevor Boyer is correct.

There ya go another counter yay

Shame that it's not that good in teamfights, other sidenoders, etc. It's a gimmick build designed to be anti-staff DrD.

[Crab Fear.1624]

@foste.3098 said:

@BarnacleBoy.6918 said:This is an amazing thread. It’s great how much discussion is happening, but its pretty unfortunate how the goalposts keep moving, and how arguments are being based off of much less than what trevor provided...

Enough with the semantics. This class is very obviously over performing... if literal videos and indepth discussions aren't enough evidence, maybe the fact that there are ~4 thief's in nearly every match should help persuade you.

Every leaderboard FOTM junkie I know is playing condi thief.

That is because the thread is about 2 different builds and then mysterious 3rd condi staff build hijacked the thread for a page or so. But yea i agree conndi s/d daredevil is annoying af mostly due to easy poison application, and i do think adjustments are necessary; see my comments about deadly ambition.

He has been talking about pistol no offhand. Before that he was talking about condi staff.

The traits are not over-performing.

There are other condi thief builds that are much easier to deal with that don't need to be gimped.

Remove the immobile from infiltrator's strike, problem solved.

That's less poison and now they can't keep you from dodging.

Non daredevil non lotus thieves can't put too much cover on you without using utilities. They need the boost.

[saerni.2584]

I’ve fought a lot of trend followers on condi thief and it’s like...not op.

The variants can be more or less difficult to fight because of weapon mechanics but just because a weapon has evade or a teleport doesn’t make it OP.

Further, Deadly Ambition is 3 stacks (with Potent) of poison lasting 3.5 seconds on a cooldown of 5 seconds. This means it usually isn’t going to exceed 400 damage per second with someone constantly hitting the target. Asking for this to be nerfed is hilarious as though it will actually cut the damage enough to matter.

All this is is a rehash of “I hate condi” and “I hate thief.”

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@saerni.2584 said:I’ve fought a lot of trend followers on condi thief and it’s like...not op.

The variants can be more or less difficult to fight because of weapon mechanics but just because a weapon has evade or a teleport doesn’t make it OP.

Further, Deadly Ambition is 3 stacks (with Potent) of poison lasting 3.5 seconds on a cooldown of 5 seconds. This means it usually isn’t going to exceed 400 damage per second with someone constantly hitting the target. Asking for this to be nerfed is hilarious as though it will actually cut the damage enough to matter.

All this is is a rehash of “I hate condi” and “I hate thief.”

Exactly!

[Crab Fear.1624]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@saerni.2584 said:I’ve fought a lot of trend followers on condi thief and it’s like...not op.

The variants can be more or less difficult to fight because of weapon mechanics but just because a weapon has evade or a teleport doesn’t make it OP.

Further, Deadly Ambition is 3 stacks (with Potent) of poison lasting 3.5 seconds on a cooldown of 5 seconds. This means it usually isn’t going to exceed 400 damage per second with someone constantly hitting the target. Asking for this to be nerfed is hilarious as though it will actually cut the damage enough to matter.

All this is is a rehash of “I hate condi” and “I hate thief.”

Exactly!

I was trying all the variants of the pistol no offhand deathly build. Saw you in a match. You just beat me up lol.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@foste.3098 said:

@BarnacleBoy.6918 said:This is an amazing thread. It’s great how much discussion is happening, but its pretty unfortunate how the goalposts keep moving, and how arguments are being based off of much less than what trevor provided...

Enough with the semantics. This class is very obviously over performing... if literal videos and indepth discussions aren't enough evidence, maybe the fact that there are ~4 thief's in nearly every match should help persuade you.

Every leaderboard FOTM junkie I know is playing condi thief.

That is because the thread is about 2 different builds and then mysterious 3rd condi staff build hijacked the thread for a page or so. But yea i agree conndi s/d daredevil is annoying af mostly due to easy poison application, and i do think adjustments are necessary; see my comments about deadly ambition.

He has been talking about pistol no offhand. Before that he was talking about condi staff.

The traits are not over-performing.

I dunno man, you should see what I'm capable of doing as of TODAY about 58 matches into ranked, after some serious practice playing this build. Pistol/NoOH with Shortbow that is. Now that I'm actually picking up some experience on Thief, I swapped to DA/Trickery/DD. This build is countering everything. There is not a single person or build that I've come across in these 58 games that I could not 1v1 on equal ground. That's not to say that I've won every single 1v1 or 1v2, but the ability to out play anything is there. In no way does this build have any counter like: (Ranger vs. Necro) (Condi Mirage vs. Herald) (DH vs. Thief) It can just win if you're patient, every time. If I lose, it is MY fault, not because something is countering me. The same can't be said for many other builds that have ever even existed in Guild Wars 2.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@saerni.2584 said:I’ve fought a lot of trend followers on condi thief and it’s like...not op.

The variants can be more or less difficult to fight because of weapon mechanics but just because a weapon has evade or a teleport doesn’t make it OP.

Further, Deadly Ambition is 3 stacks (with Potent) of poison lasting 3.5 seconds on a cooldown of 5 seconds. This means it usually isn’t going to exceed 400 damage per second with someone constantly hitting the target. Asking for this to be nerfed is hilarious as though it will actually cut the damage enough to matter.

All this is is a rehash of “I hate condi” and “I hate thief.”

Exactly!

I was trying all the variants of the pistol no offhand deathly build. Saw you in a match. You just beat me up lol.

Haha sry man, ull make me pay next time

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@foste.3098 said:

@BarnacleBoy.6918 said:This is an amazing thread. It’s great how much discussion is happening, but its pretty unfortunate how the goalposts keep moving, and how arguments are being based off of much less than what trevor provided...

Enough with the semantics. This class is very obviously over performing... if literal videos and indepth discussions aren't enough evidence, maybe the fact that there are ~4 thief's in nearly every match should help persuade you.

Every leaderboard FOTM junkie I know is playing condi thief.

That is because the thread is about 2 different builds and then mysterious 3rd condi staff build hijacked the thread for a page or so. But yea i agree conndi s/d daredevil is annoying af mostly due to easy poison application, and i do think adjustments are necessary; see my comments about deadly ambition.

He has been talking about pistol no offhand. Before that he was talking about condi staff.

The traits are not over-performing.

I dunno man, you should see what I'm capable of doing as of TODAY about 58 matches into ranked, after some serious practice playing this build. Pistol/NoOH with Shortbow that is. Now that I'm actually picking up some experience on Thief, I swapped to DA/Trickery/DD. This build is countering everything. There is not a single person or build that I've come across in these 58 games that I could not 1v1 on equal ground. That's not to say that I've won every single 1v1 or 1v2, but the ability to out play anything is there. In no way does this build have any counter like: (Ranger vs. Necro) (Condi Mirage vs. Herald) (DH vs. Thief) It can just win if you're patient, every time. If I lose, it is MY fault, not because something is countering me. The same can't be said for many other builds that have ever even existed in Guild Wars 2.

That last statement is a really bold statement lol well post some vids and keep going be cool to see u top the charts with the build :) as I've stated I have serious doubts but if u are being honest that's great,I'd be nice to see something different in the meta for once!

[Crab Fear.1624]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@foste.3098 said:

@BarnacleBoy.6918 said:This is an amazing thread. It’s great how much discussion is happening, but its pretty unfortunate how the goalposts keep moving, and how arguments are being based off of much less than what trevor provided...

Enough with the semantics. This class is very obviously over performing... if literal videos and indepth discussions aren't enough evidence, maybe the fact that there are ~4 thief's in nearly every match should help persuade you.

Every leaderboard FOTM junkie I know is playing condi thief.

That is because the thread is about 2 different builds and then mysterious 3rd condi staff build hijacked the thread for a page or so. But yea i agree conndi s/d daredevil is annoying af mostly due to easy poison application, and i do think adjustments are necessary; see my comments about deadly ambition.

He has been talking about pistol no offhand. Before that he was talking about condi staff.

The traits are not over-performing.

I dunno man, you should see what I'm capable of doing as of TODAY about 58 matches into ranked, after some serious practice playing this build. Pistol/NoOH with Shortbow that is. Now that I'm actually picking up some experience on Thief, I swapped to DA/Trickery/DD. This build is countering everything. There is not a single person or build that I've come across in these 58 games that I could not 1v1 on equal ground. That's not to say that I've won every single 1v1 or 1v2, but the ability to out play anything is there. In no way does this build have any counter like: (Ranger vs. Necro) (Condi Mirage vs. Herald) (DH vs. Thief) It can just win if you're patient, every time. If I lose, it is MY fault, not because something is countering me. The same can't be said for many other builds that have ever even existed in Guild Wars 2.

If you are making it work and it's getting those Ws.

I'm not gonna actively seek a duel, but if I catch you in a game, we will see what it can do.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

Bumping this because these things are still around. I had the unfortunate pleasure of being matched against the acro staff Daredevil, staff-3+jump-abusing, perma-evade (not hyperbole) full degenerate build a couple times recently, and it's exactly as Trevor and Shadowpass described months ago.

Except in the rare situation your team has the specialized build to counter it and/or the coordination to rotate around it, it will troll 1vX the entire match. It's like the pre-nerf Scrapper when it comes to yanking nodes and ultimately winning 1vX, but instead of being unkillable by being immune to damage, it is simply immune to being hit.

I'm not saying there aren't some very niche builds and ways to beat it, but this is 100% "degenerate play" that's the very definition of anti-fun to deal with. At the very least, Anet should do something about the staff-3+jump abuse so there are some punish frames at some point.

Can't really say more than has already been said, other than that this is still around and is very unhealthy.

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Daredevil/Acro lines are indeed granting too much. Thief needed a buff, but it didn't need literally "permanent dodge/evade spam and condi cleanse". I don't even care about the damage output, that's fine. It's the "infinitely slippery" part that makes it too much.

In team fights where they actually have stability being splashed on them, you seriously cannot kill these new Daredevil builds. Because the one moment you do land a CC, it won't CC it. And boon removal isn't reliable to use when you miss the Thief 9/10s you attempt to strike it. It's too much defensive play.

Upon that, it creates this effect where the Thief cannot be struck for 3/4ths of the time you are engaging it, as it stands in your face nontheless. And when it does make itself vulnerable, it's landing with a Vault and spamming condis all over, that you have to eat if you want to strike it. It's just more of that "I am 100% defensing you while I 100% offense you stuff" and that pisses everyone off. Arenanet needs to STOP adding this kind of play to the game. It's so braindead and the more they add this type of gameplay, the less interactive & skillful the game dynamic becomes.

I thought we already learned this from older tanky Mirage builds. Not sure why this is happening again on Daredevil.

^This, totally this.

@shadowpass.4236 said:I'm telling you guys that condi staff isn't the build people are abusing for memes in inhouses and ques.

Any good thief players like Anya, Beyond, Helio, etc. etc. can all troll extremely hard on the evade spam build. You don't even have to spam them. However, someone could probably play the build with their eyes closed and still be unable to lose a cap/die in an outnumbered fight. It also has team fight presence with 6k vaults and massive utility (which I won't give away either).

The build is completely stupid to fight against. I refuse to give it away. The slow rate of balance means that if thieves start to run this build next season, ranked is going to be a complete joke.

^This, so much this.

@Tycura.1982 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

@Tycura.1982 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:DrD Staff was running rampant in Ranked? O.o

Can't speak for ranked but it's being abused in AT for sure. It's not your typical vault and bound spam.

I didn't meet any in neither Ranked nor ATs, I get that people can have different experience, but it seems a suspicious statement anyway.

Ive ran up against it three times in late day ATs. Twice with JonesBoy and once from some other named

Private somthing

. That's in the last week.

I'm pretty sure this is one of the players I encountered recently. They're Platinum 3 going by one of their posts and they were in full blown troll mode in our match. Waved at me when they wouldn't even let me leave spawn. Kept it going by doing the post-match whisper.

[Kumouta.4985]

just use a wall-type skill/utility.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

A staff DD killed me haaaaaalp that's so unfair, pls nerf into ground lomPathetic!

[Crab Fear.1624]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:A staff DD killed me haaaaaalp that's so unfair, pls nerf into ground lomPathetic!

I think time I die to them is when I get stubborn and try to fight them.

They are extremely difficult to hit.

So, when i play like a regular thief or daredevil and + all the fights they are not at (all of them), I tend to win games.

However, I see people just cant stand it and keep going back doing exactly what the thief wants.

The counter that anyone can do is ignore and rotate. Literally takes no resources.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:Bumping this because these things are still around. I had the unfortunate pleasure of being matched against the acro staff Daredevil, staff-3+jump-abusing, perma-evade (not hyperbole) full degenerate build a couple times recently, and it's exactly as Trevor and Shadowpass described months ago.

Except in the rare situation your team has the specialized build to counter it and/or the coordination to rotate around it, it will troll 1vX the entire match. It's like the pre-nerf Scrapper when it comes to yanking nodes and ultimately winning 1vX, but instead of being unkillable by being immune to damage, it is simply immune to being hit.

I'm not saying there aren't some very niche builds and ways to beat it, but this is 100% "degenerate play" that's the very definition of anti-fun to deal with. At the very least, Anet should do something about the staff-3+jump abuse so there are some punish frames at some point.

Can't really say more than has already been said, other than that this is still around and is very unhealthy.

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Daredevil/Acro lines are indeed granting too much. Thief needed a buff, but it didn't need literally

"permanent dodge/evade spam and condi cleanse"

. I don't even care about the damage output, that's fine.

It's the "infinitely slippery" part that makes it too much.

In team fights where they actually have stability being splashed on them, you seriously cannot kill these new Daredevil builds. Because the one moment you do land a CC, it won't CC it. And boon removal isn't reliable to use when

you miss the Thief 9/10s you attempt to strike it

. It's too much defensive play.

Upon that, it creates this effect where the Thief cannot be struck for 3/4ths of the time you are engaging it, as it stands in your face nontheless. And when it does make itself vulnerable, it's landing with a Vault and spamming condis all over, that you have to eat if you want to strike it. It's just more of that "I am 100% defensing you while I 100% offense you stuff" and that pisses everyone off. Arenanet needs to STOP adding this kind of play to the game. It's so braindead and the more they add this type of gameplay, the less interactive & skillful the game dynamic becomes.

I thought we already learned this from older tanky Mirage builds. Not sure why this is happening again on Daredevil.

^This, totally this.

@shadowpass.4236 said:I'm telling you guys that condi staff isn't the build people are abusing for memes in inhouses and ques.

Any good thief players like Anya, Beyond, Helio, etc. etc. can all troll extremely hard on the evade spam build. You don't even have to spam them. However, someone could probably play the build with their eyes closed and still be unable to lose a cap/die in an outnumbered fight. It also has team fight presence with 6k vaults and massive utility (which I won't give away either).

The build is completely stupid to fight against.

I refuse to give it away. The slow rate of balance means that if thieves start to run this build next season, ranked is going to be a complete joke.

^This, so much this.

@Tycura.1982 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

@Tycura.1982 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:DrD Staff was running rampant in Ranked? O.o

Can't speak for ranked but it's being abused in AT for sure. It's not your typical vault and bound spam.

I didn't meet any in neither Ranked nor ATs, I get that people can have different experience, but it seems a suspicious statement anyway.

Ive ran up against it three times in late day ATs. Twice with JonesBoy and once from some other named

Private somthing

. That's in the last week.

I'm pretty sure this is one of the players I encountered recently. They're Platinum 3 going by one of their posts and they were in full blown troll mode in our match. Waved at me when they wouldn't even let me leave spawn. Kept it going by doing the post-match whisper.

remember thief decaping node, knew i couldnt 1v1 him so i just stood at range and held mouse 1 as power GS mesmer.he managed to cap entire node without a single tick of damage going throught. I buggered off elswhere, he can have his node.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@"Psycoprophet.8107" said:A staff DD killed me haaaaaalp that's so unfair, pls nerf into ground lomPathetic!

I think time I die to them is when I get stubborn and try to fight them.

They are extremely difficult to hit.

So, when i play like a regular thief or daredevil and + all the fights they are not at (all of them), I tend to win games.

However, I see people just cant stand it and keep going back doing exactly what the thief wants.

The counter that anyone can do is ignore and rotate. Literally takes no resources.

Therein lies the problem. Acro-staff DD plays like an unkillable side-noder that can, and will, win 1vX, killing multiple players trying to engage it. Unlike pre-nerf Scrapper, it does have kill potential while being untouchable and still more mobile, yet look what happened to Scrapper. And the odds that many queue-ers know not to "give it what it wants" by god-forbid actually trying to fight it in any random match, aren't great.

You know something's wrong with a build when the best advice for dealing with it is: "Run. Runaway." If any other side node class had a build like this that people were abusing there would be an uproar. For now, this build still remains somewhat under the radar. But perhaps not for long:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/90959/imagine

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Lol DD unkillable what a joke, just like this games became. Oh no a thief build that's somewhat strong so gotta nerf it to the ground. Literally love watching this game fall partly due to its players mentalities. Every player has the mind set no other classes but the few they like are allowed good things and god forbid one of them is a slight challenge to them or their class than its OP and needs nerfed. There are far more op things spread throughout the classes than anything thief's got. Warrior, holo's etc have thiefs burst potential,great disengage potential and way higher sustain but yeah staff thiefs broken. Mirage can stealth one shot while cc almost all targets among the rest of the things it can do but staff thiefs op. Slb can range burst someone at 1800 range with great disengage potential but staff thiefs OP. Could literally go on but why as this games dying hard rightfully so.

[Crab Fear.1624]

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@"Psycoprophet.8107" said:A staff DD killed me haaaaaalp that's so unfair, pls nerf into ground lomPathetic!

I think time I die to them is when I get stubborn and try to fight them.

They are extremely difficult to hit.

So, when i play like a regular thief or daredevil and + all the fights they are not at (all of them), I tend to win games.

However, I see people just cant stand it and keep going back doing exactly what the thief wants.

The counter that anyone can do is ignore and rotate. Literally takes no resources.

Therein lies the problem. Acro-staff DD plays like an unkillable side-noder that can, and will, win 1vX, killing multiple players trying to engage it. Unlike pre-nerf Scrapper, it does have kill potential while being untouchable and still more mobile, yet look what happened to Scrapper. And the odds that many queue-ers know not to "give it what it wants" by god-forbid actually trying to fight it in any random match, aren't great.

You know something's wrong with a build when the best advice for dealing with it is: "Run. Runaway."

If any other side node class had a build like this that people were abusing there would be an uproar. For now, this build still remains somewhat under the radar. But perhaps not for long:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/90959/imagine

If I have to use a different strategy for a different comp there is something wrong?

Edit:I mean fix the staff 3 bug, if it's a bug.

Like for example, make the skill only evade after a successful hit, and not work midair.

Punishment frame will be clearly added.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@"Psycoprophet.8107" said:A staff DD killed me haaaaaalp that's so unfair, pls nerf into ground lomPathetic!

I think time I die to them is when I get stubborn and try to fight them.

They are extremely difficult to hit.

So, when i play like a regular thief or daredevil and + all the fights they are not at (all of them), I tend to win games.

However, I see people just cant stand it and keep going back doing exactly what the thief wants.

The counter that anyone can do is ignore and rotate. Literally takes no resources.

Therein lies the problem. Acro-staff DD plays like an unkillable side-noder that can, and will, win 1vX, killing multiple players trying to engage it. Unlike pre-nerf Scrapper, it does have kill potential while being untouchable and still more mobile, yet look what happened to Scrapper. And the odds that many queue-ers know not to "give it what it wants" by god-forbid actually trying to fight it in any random match, aren't great.

You know something's wrong with a build when the best advice for dealing with it is: "Run. Runaway."

If any other side node class had a build like this that people were abusing there would be an uproar. For now, this build still remains somewhat under the radar. But perhaps not for long:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/90959/imagine

If I have to use a different strategy for a different comp there is something wrong?

Yes, if that strategy is simply for your entire team to avoid the degenerate build at all costs in the vast majority of matches.

Edit:I mean fix the staff 3 bug, if it's a bug.

Like for example, make the skill only evade after a successful hit, and not work midair.

Punishment frame will be clearly added.

As I said earlier, I think this would be a good place to start. I certainly never said:

@"Psycoprophet.8107" said:Oh no a thief build that's somewhat strong so gotta nerf it to the ground.

This isn't an "us versus them" debate. It is a health of the game issue. Anything that can squat on a node while being effectively unkillable in 1vX in the vast majority of matches is inherently unhealthy in a point-capture game mode. Unhealthy not because there are zero ways to play around it, but because they embody a type of play--degenerate play--that almost nobody truly wants. Scrapper and Chrono were both altered for doing the same thing. There should be no exceptions to this precedent.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Safandula.8723 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@Crab Fear.1624 @Alatar.7364 @Daishi.6027 @Azure The Heartless.3261 @Psycoprophet.8107 @mortrialus.3062 @"mrauls.6519" @babazhook.6805 @Kageseigi.2150 @foste.3098 @Burnfall.9573 @Safandula.8723 @Tsuchinoko.7546 @Fat Disgrace.4275 @Tycura.1982 @KrHome.1920 @NecroSummonsMors.7816 @Whitworth.7259 @shadowpass.4236 @"saerni.2584"

Took me a bit. Haven't really been in the mood to record lately.

First I want to say that this build is the Staff/Shortbow Condi that people are talking about, but I actually vouched to take Single Pistol with no offhand over Staff. What is the difference? Well I can't stay in the middle of a team fight quite as long as Staff/SB Condi, but what I'm running has a lot more chase potential and ability to secure single target kills. As an old Ranger player, I prefer it that way.

Secondly I wanted to make clear why I posted this video, because this is a temporary video, and will be deleted when this thread is dead:

1. For purposes of debate in this thread.
2. To demonstrate the ridiculously low skill floor that this build possesses. It's debatable whether this is OP or not in high tier play, but 2 things are certain: It is THE lowest skill foor entry build that has ever existed in Guild Wars 2, and it is strong as hell in an organized 5 man team built around condi stack spam cheese play.
3. I do not feel that Staff/Acro Power is a problem, or any Core/DE Acro variant. Survivability is fine when damage is harder to deal or land in general. I feel the problem here is within Deadly Arts poison application frequency and how Shortbow #4 Chocking Gas works in conjunction with it. Also, regardless of if one is using a Staff or Pistol with this, the poison application becomes broken.
   Remember what I mentioned in an earlier post about how beyond 100% poison uptime has a lot of "hidden damage" so to say. The -33% to heal is hidden damage proportionate to how much the target or targets are able to potentially heal.
   If you were attacking a Power Shiro that's not much, but while attacking something like a FB or a Tempest or a Holosmith, that permanent poison application that gets reapplied as soon as it's cleansed, is a lot of hidden damage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGHKbBIKwPw

Also want to point out that this build is just busted AF in WvW/PvE where Energy Sigils grant +50% endurance, Adventurer is +50% endurance, Sig of Agility is +100% endurance, Foods with +40% endurance regen, Choking Gas is still only 1s interval between Dazes, Access to these Sigils:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Sigil_of_Absorption

and

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Sigil_of_Draining

<- actually click that and read what these no CD sigils do for you vs. mobs and large groups of players when you 1vX, and then of course perma AoE weaknes spam. You actually don't need any other weapon other than a Shrotbow with Absorption & Draining in it. You'll never want to swap off that Shortbow because what it is doing with Absorption/Draining is the most powerful kill/survival technique combined into one action, that a Condi Thief can potentially launch on another player. In PvE, this build can EASILY solo anything in the game, so long as it doesn't require mechanics like "4 players need to stand on 4 panels individually to open a door". Nothing in PvE can deal damage to this build. The mobs will stand in your poison pits perma dazing themselves and getting hit with Pulm Strike and the high condi damage in general. If they somehow get past the dazing, then they have perma Weakness spam on them. If they somehow get past the Weakness then the DD has permanent dodging and evading. And then every interrupt on every target, is STEALING 3 boons every time. What? Yup, that's happening. The pve gear stat version of this build can 1vX like no other.

~ Edit: Sorry about 480 upload. Not sure what YouTube did there. Normally it always uploads my videos at 1080. No idea what happened, but I'm not fixing this one because it's just a temp video. I suggest watching it in a smaller box instead of full screen. Looks less kitten that way.

imo this build is worse than condi s/d by dmg and mobility. Survivability prolly as well but bit kind to compare. i wanted to see staff condi, so im disappointed :(

I just finished filming some staff condi games. I am going to upload the gameplay lol.

Okay. I made sure to get several scenarios that show the pros and cons of the build and not just a one sided I win montage.

https://youtu.be/QAqRLlYwKB0

Love this

[Crab Fear.1624]

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Safandula.8723 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@Crab Fear.1624 @Alatar.7364 @Daishi.6027 @Azure The Heartless.3261 @Psycoprophet.8107 @mortrialus.3062 @"mrauls.6519" @babazhook.6805 @Kageseigi.2150 @foste.3098 @Burnfall.9573 @Safandula.8723 @Tsuchinoko.7546 @Fat Disgrace.4275 @Tycura.1982 @KrHome.1920 @NecroSummonsMors.7816 @Whitworth.7259 @shadowpass.4236 @"saerni.2584"

Took me a bit. Haven't really been in the mood to record lately.

First I want to say that this build is the Staff/Shortbow Condi that people are talking about, but I actually vouched to take Single Pistol with no offhand over Staff. What is the difference? Well I can't stay in the middle of a team fight quite as long as Staff/SB Condi, but what I'm running has a lot more chase potential and ability to secure single target kills. As an old Ranger player, I prefer it that way.

Secondly I wanted to make clear why I posted this video, because this is a temporary video, and will be deleted when this thread is dead:

1. For purposes of debate in this thread.
2. To demonstrate the ridiculously low skill floor that this build possesses. It's debatable whether this is OP or not in high tier play, but 2 things are certain: It is THE lowest skill foor entry build that has ever existed in Guild Wars 2, and it is strong as hell in an organized 5 man team built around condi stack spam cheese play.
3. I do not feel that Staff/Acro Power is a problem, or any Core/DE Acro variant. Survivability is fine when damage is harder to deal or land in general. I feel the problem here is within Deadly Arts poison application frequency and how Shortbow #4 Chocking Gas works in conjunction with it. Also, regardless of if one is using a Staff or Pistol with this, the poison application becomes broken.
   Remember what I mentioned in an earlier post about how beyond 100% poison uptime has a lot of "hidden damage" so to say. The -33% to heal is hidden damage proportionate to how much the target or targets are able to potentially heal.
   If you were attacking a Power Shiro that's not much, but while attacking something like a FB or a Tempest or a Holosmith, that permanent poison application that gets reapplied as soon as it's cleansed, is a lot of hidden damage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGHKbBIKwPw

Also want to point out that this build is just busted AF in WvW/PvE where Energy Sigils grant +50% endurance, Adventurer is +50% endurance, Sig of Agility is +100% endurance, Foods with +40% endurance regen, Choking Gas is still only 1s interval between Dazes, Access to these Sigils:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Sigil_of_Absorption

and

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Sigil_of_Draining

<- actually click that and read what these no CD sigils do for you vs. mobs and large groups of players when you 1vX, and then of course perma AoE weaknes spam. You actually don't need any other weapon other than a Shrotbow with Absorption & Draining in it. You'll never want to swap off that Shortbow because what it is doing with Absorption/Draining is the most powerful kill/survival technique combined into one action, that a Condi Thief can potentially launch on another player. In PvE, this build can EASILY solo anything in the game, so long as it doesn't require mechanics like "4 players need to stand on 4 panels individually to open a door". Nothing in PvE can deal damage to this build. The mobs will stand in your poison pits perma dazing themselves and getting hit with Pulm Strike and the high condi damage in general. If they somehow get past the dazing, then they have perma Weakness spam on them. If they somehow get past the Weakness then the DD has permanent dodging and evading. And then every interrupt on every target, is STEALING 3 boons every time. What? Yup, that's happening. The pve gear stat version of this build can 1vX like no other.

~ Edit: Sorry about 480 upload. Not sure what YouTube did there. Normally it always uploads my videos at 1080. No idea what happened, but I'm not fixing this one because it's just a temp video. I suggest watching it in a smaller box instead of full screen. Looks less kitten that way.

imo this build is worse than condi s/d by dmg and mobility. Survivability prolly as well but bit kind to compare. i wanted to see staff condi, so im disappointed :(

I just finished filming some staff condi games. I am going to upload the gameplay lol.

Okay. I made sure to get several scenarios that show the pros and cons of the build and not just a one sided I win montage.

https://youtu.be/QAqRLlYwKB0

Love this

Thanks!

[Kageseigi.2150]

@"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:You know something's wrong with a build when the best advice for dealing with it is: "Run. Runaway."

Alas, "Run away" has been the mantra for non-evasive Power Thieves against the vast majority of professions/builds for years.

It's literally one of the first things you learn when you start playing Thief... right up there with turning off minis and auto-attacks. As soon as you spot an enemy, hit the road, Jack!

[ugrakarma.9416]

i can counter anything with my necro except Condi Thief, no matter how CC chain or skillset i use.

defeat this spec rely entirely on surprise factor, they get distracted and u nuke-bomb them with Shroud #5 and #4 combo.

not even the pre-nerf bunker scrapper was like this.

[Curennos.9307]

@ugrakarma.9416 said:i can counter anything with my necro except Condi Thief, no matter how CC chain or skillset i use.

defeat this spec rely entirely on surprise factor, they get distracted and u nuke-bomb them with Shroud #5 and #4 combo.

not even the pre-nerf bunker scrapper was like this.

Plague signet - that's the condi transfer one, right? It's a stun break, cleanses 5condis. Let them land their burst and then just nail them at the end of their dodge - iirc it is instant. It's also still a workable pick for other stuff, so it's not like it would only he useful against condi thief.