NA WvW is in freefall

[nthmetal.9652]

@Arctisavange.7261 said:It has been about fights since forever.Back in the days PPT was only done to climb in tiers and have fights against certain servers that the community you were within, had interest in fighting against.

I doubt that. That's one point of view, but only one point of view. Fights are fun, but PPT can also be fun.

PPT never made the game mode popular. Heck do you really think players found excitement in flipping the same tower or keep over and over again, hundreds to thousands of times? Be real here.

Judging from what I see in the beavior of some servers, judging from what some commanders do, yes and no. Of course you don't want to keep flipping the same tower or keep over and over again. You want to flip it and then you want to keep it. That's how it's supposed to work.Taking all the stuff, then organizing to keep it is quite fun. And when nothing more happens on that map, you go for the next one and try to get stuff there.

[shiri.4257]

@Arctisavange.7261 said:

@Dinas Dragonbane.2978 said:

@Arctisavange.7261 said:Been playing and commanding since launch of the game. Do you think anyone in their right mind give any kitten about PPT and overall, flipping towers/keeps?

WvW is massive PVP aka large scale player vs player. People who care about the game mode are here to fight enemies, not slap gates all day long and call it a GG if they climb a tier.So then.... was the game more popular when the majority of the wvw community's focus was on ppt, or nowadays when people say it's all about fights?

It has been about fights since forever.Back in the days PPT was only done to climb in tiers and have fights against certain servers that the community you were within, had interest in fighting against.

=>nah you just transferred up to a glicko lock tier.

PPT never made the game mode popular. Heck do you really think players found excitement in flipping the same tower or keep over and over again, hundreds to thousands of times? Be real here.

=>the large scale fights for an objective made it popular. the lolligagging around said objectives was just as detrimental to wvw as the ktraining of the same tower or keep. the commanders just became more lazy or incompetent (myself, more lazy).

[Arctisavange.7261]

Sorry but over the years commanders have mainly gone for any sort of tower/keep flipping mainly cause it can draw out a fight. What i said right now doesnt even remotely refer to PPT loving.Main point being - everything is mainly done for fighting purpose, that especially reflects to nowadays.

[XenesisII.1540]

We can have tournaments back just have it this way:Drunk CupBG NA vs BG EU vs BG Ocx/Sea

Tipsy CupFA vs SF vs Empty red side.

Champagne CupThe 9 other high host servers with links.

Easy.

[shiri.4257]

@Arctisavange.7261 said:Sorry but over the years commanders have mainly gone for any sort of tower/keep flipping mainly cause it can draw out a fight. What i said right now doesnt even remotely refer to PPT loving.Main point being - everything is mainly done for fighting purpose, that especially reflects to nowadays.

thanks for proving the point. now are they lazy or just incompetent?

[Sovereign.1093]

@Arctisavange.7261 said:Sorry but over the years commanders have mainly gone for any sort of tower/keep flipping mainly cause it can draw out a fight. What i said right now doesnt even remotely refer to PPT loving.Main point being - everything is mainly done for fighting purpose, that especially reflects to nowadays.

a balance of taking defending and fighting is fun; so we do that, but - got to give us, commanders, some incentive too.

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

RIP wvw, anet probably wont even host your funeral since they never cared about you :'(

[Acheron.4731]

only the flies and odor will let them know 'something died'

[Dinas Dragonbane.2978]

@Arctisavange.7261 said:

As something for only you to think - if PPT was the main fun aspect of the game back in the days, then howcome the glorious PPT hasnt kept the population healthy over the many years of WvW?That was the longest NO I've ever read.PPT is not glorious in any aspect, but to gain more PPT you had to attack your enemies and take their objectives, and defend your own tooth and nail. Ever see a map queue defend home garrison's inner and lord room for an hour or TWO because the fight is that close and defenders while losing the battle keep coming back to defend the damn thing? People used to sacrifice themselves defending objectives...even suiciding themselves in lord room circles just to contest for a few seconds! Fast forward to now where the community obviously doesn't care about PPT(for good reason though because winning is pointless) and just cares about the fights, or should I say only winning fights. People won't attack objectives unless they have a large advantage, and people won't normally defend unless it's at least even numbers. What kind of fights does that create? Infrequent is the word that comes to my mind.

PPT is NOT the best thing for the game, but when the majority of players focused on it the game mode and particularly the FIGHTS were better off because of it.

[SkyShroud.2865]

@Dinas Dragonbane.2978 said:

@Arctisavange.7261 said:

As something for only you to think - if PPT was the main fun aspect of the game back in the days, then howcome the glorious PPT hasnt kept the population healthy over the many years of WvW?That was the longest NO I've ever read.PPT is not glorious in any aspect, but to gain more PPT you had to attack your enemies and take their objectives, and defend your own tooth and nail. Ever see a map queue defend home garrison's inner and lord room for an hour or TWO because the fight is that close and defenders while losing the battle keep coming back to defend the kitten thing? People used to sacrifice themselves defending objectives...even suiciding themselves in lord room circles just to contest for a few seconds! Fast forward to now where the community obviously doesn't care about PPT(for good reason though because winning is pointless) and just cares about the fights, or should I say only winning fights. People won't attack objectives unless they have a large advantage, and people won't normally defend unless it's at least even numbers. What kind of fights does that create? Infrequent is the word that comes to my mind.

PPT is NOT the best thing for the game, but when the majority of players focused on it the game mode and particularly the FIGHTS were better off because of it.

Back in core, people used to can fight twice and even thrice their size. Now, unless your squad contain mostly good players, it is hard to pull that off. What this also means is back then you could grind enemies down even by just running back even if they are bigger but now the passive and active heals are so strong, it can't be done anymore, you need to gather everyone just to kill that few and repeat but doing so still gonna lose it anyway. Then when they introduce mount, it yet again benefit the bigger side. Anet also refuse to exercise iron grip control over bandwagoning and stacking.

All in all, anet did nothing but boosting the sides with more numbers and punishing the sides that have lesser. Naturally, the sides that have lesser who get punished harsher and harsher every major patch eventually will give up and leave. When that side leave, you got no more fights since these people are the ones that give you fights, not the bandwagoners.

[DeWolfe.2174]

@Arctisavange.7261 said:

It has been about fights since forever.Back in the days PPT was only done to climb in tiers and have fights against certain servers that the community you were within, had interest in fighting against.

PPT never made the game mode popular. Heck do you really think players found excitement in flipping the same tower or keep over and over again, hundreds to thousands of times? Be real here.

You are 100% incorrect. For the first couple of years many of us played to win for our Worlds. That included organizing our worlds, having websites, having voice comms, fielding WvW commanders, even running events, dungeons, and champ trains in PvE too. When it all began to fail was when the importance of Worlds began to fade. Which was mostly a choice made by the devs with the Mega Server system. The dev's have made many mistakes since then. One being the catering to and elevating the importance of Guilds. Guilds are simply too unstable, inadequate, and ultimately incapable of shouldering a massively populated game mode like WvW was designed to be. That is why the mode continues to degrade further and further over the past 4 years.

[Sovereign.1093]

the fights thing came about because we could not afford siege x upgrades. hence gvg. i challenge your best fighter with out best. and deep inside, even if you won ppt, because we didnt have nos. you only won because you got carried by different timezone.

now, we dont have that excuse, but there is no essense in wvw, like tournaments. all that we have now is the community

[C Cspace Cowboy.5903]

EOTM population, Coming to a BL near you!

Oh, its already there. Nevermind, carry on.

[Vova.2640]

@SkyShroud.2865 said:

Back in core, people used to can fight twice and even thrice their size. Now, unless your squad contain mostly good players, it is hard to pull that off. What this also means is back then you could grind enemies down even by just running back even if they are bigger but now the passive and active heals are so strong, it can't be done anymore, you need to gather everyone just to kill that few and repeat but doing so still gonna lose it anyway. Then when they introduce mount, it yet again benefit the bigger side. Anet also refuse to exercise iron grip control over bandwagoning and stacking.

All in all, anet did nothing but boosting the sides with more numbers and punishing the sides that have lesser. Naturally, the sides that have lesser who get punished harsher and harsher every major patch eventually will give up and leave. When that side leave, you got no more fights since these people are the ones that give you fights, not the bandwagoners.

Tbh average player skill most likely went up quite a bit as well compared to core days. that could be another factor.just as an example warclaw week. our guild was able to get on one map with 20-25 ppl and we were able to run over 50-60+ pve'ers who cant wvw at all.

But yes, power creep hurt wvw with every expansion...

[Caysadia.7405]

Only one full server remains, will blackgate stand the test of time, or fall like all the others

[SkyShroud.2865]

@Vova.2640 said:

@SkyShroud.2865 said:

Back in core, people used to can fight twice and even thrice their size. Now, unless your squad contain mostly good players, it is hard to pull that off. What this also means is back then you could grind enemies down even by just running back even if they are bigger but now the passive and active heals are so strong, it can't be done anymore, you need to gather everyone just to kill that few and repeat but doing so still gonna lose it anyway. Then when they introduce mount, it yet again benefit the bigger side. Anet also refuse to exercise iron grip control over bandwagoning and stacking.

All in all, anet did nothing but boosting the sides with more numbers and punishing the sides that have lesser. Naturally, the sides that have lesser who get punished harsher and harsher every major patch eventually will give up and leave. When that side leave, you got no more fights since these people are the ones that give you fights, not the bandwagoners.

Tbh average player skill most likely went up quite a bit as well compared to core days. that could be another factor.just as an example warclaw week. our guild was able to get on one map with 20-25 ppl and we were able to run over 50-60+ pve'ers who cant wvw at all.

But yes, power creep hurt wvw with every expansion...

Back then, we have to blast for major heal which means you need be organized if you want to have higher level of sustain, blast for might etc, typical hammer train. Ever since hot, team sustain is much more accessible. In HOT there were still sustain ball, beating bigger group like blob is harder but still doable. Come POF, everything change, it is boonstripping balance, a blob surely can field enough spellbreaker to keep it up one after another then you can have mount come in to kill all the downs and likewise running through bombs and cc. The balance favor numbers advantage way too much over team play.

[Baltzenger.2467]

remove "presence of the keep" type of effects on objectives, replace with increased rewards not in the form of magic find, but tangible benefits that make players want to control territories.

remove dodge on mount, make it cceable, increase hp. It should be a transport that helps getting back to fights faster, not running away from them.

iterate on desert borderlands, it can be a good map if fixed.

iterate on ruins system.

implement alliance system, not just because of population imbalances, but because guilds should be at the heart of the mode.

rework wvw related guild missions. They suck.

Make tiers mean something beyond just who are you playing against, servers (or alliances in the future) also need collective objectives to want to improve, to want to make the effort to organize and help their less experienced players, you create communities around that kind of things, pride(server) was not enough to sustain the gamemode. Anet has the opportunity to follow their design philosophy of wanting every player be welcomed by realizing that players are the most important resource to any server, if handled properly. When you fester in rangers and taggers that die after one push, you're wasting potential good wvw players.

improve shattered aegis, c'mon

[C Cspace Cowboy.5903]

Four pages of all people worrying about the population of the game declining drastically, not a single response from anet.

It's officially over boys and girls.

[XenesisII.1540]

Wait... you expected a response? you must be new around here... XD

[Acheron.4731]

ANET: Hey, does anyone have anything they want to mention about wvw on the 30thDevs: crickets......chirp........ANET: anyone? anything?Devs: didn't they fire that guy?ANET: ok, let's move on..On to Cooking

[DemonSeed.3528]

@Acheron.4731 said:ANET: Hey, does anyone have anything they want to mention about wvw on the 30thDevs: crickets......chirp........ANET: anyone? anything?Devs: didn't they fire that guy?ANET: ok, let's move on..On to Cooking

Sorry, the crickets you are looking for are currently not available.(✘Д✘)

[DeadlySynz.3471]

@"Arctisavange.7261" said:Sorry but over the years commanders have mainly gone for any sort of tower/keep flipping mainly cause it can draw out a fight. What i said right now doesnt even remotely refer to PPT loving.Main point being - everything is mainly done for fighting purpose, that especially reflects to nowadays.

It's true, everything is done for a fighting purpose; however, many of these fight guilds, and/or GvG'ers behavior has been completely counterproductive to the goal. If WvW is to get new people, these guilds/commanders, can't be off tagless, or silent tagging, doing their own thing on a map against another group. For starters, it takes up unnecessary map spots, but secondly, why would any potential new WvW'er have any incentive to remain in WvW when they log on and see no real activity?

Then we have the issue of these fight guilds constantly hopping servers, then destroying each server they moved to. It completely turns off the pugs (or again new potential WvW'ers). People wonder why BG can't be beat; they have a very large pug population that's been there from the beginning. Where exactly is the pug population of the other servers? I reckon they got fed up with guilds moving to their servers, pillaging them, moving up in Tiers they couldn't handle, then gave up. We probably could take the rest of the servers in NA, put them up against BG, and they'd still lose because they don't have the pugs, even despite, having far more guilds. Which brings me to the next point;

None of these fight guilds/GvG'ers never learned to adapt. Truth be told, that trash melee ball, leap in and swing like a madman back in the core days actually got countered months prior to HoT's release. So these guilds that were once self-proclaimed great, were getting absolutely destroyed by smaller groups. Then HoT hit which amplified the problem further, then PoF even more-so. It came to the point that if any guild group attempted this old style got destroyed, hence the whining on the forums, and hence the "please bring back the core days play style". All these guilds needed to do was adapt, simple as that, but instead wanted Anet to bend the game back to that low-skill trash melee meta. Which then brings me to my next point

If these guilds were so hell bent on fights (and think they're so good), they would simply break into towers or keeps regardless of how fortified or sieged up they were, and kill the enemy and/or farm them. The truth is, they can't do it, because they aren't good enough, because they never learned to actually adapt. So their raids are basically limited to flipping paper towers, and getting wiped on the battlefield by smaller numbers. I could sit here and list many of these guilds who quit awhile ago, those who quit recently, and those still active that fall under this category.

Truth is, it's these fight guilds and their GvG behavior is what's destroyed WvW, not Anet. They could have easily learned to adapt as to remain competitive instead of being beaten like drums by pugs.

[Eremes Guile.1480]

@DeadlySynz.3471 said:

@"Arctisavange.7261" said:Sorry but over the years commanders have mainly gone for any sort of tower/keep flipping mainly cause it can draw out a fight. What i said right now doesnt even remotely refer to PPT loving.Main point being - everything is mainly done for fighting purpose, that especially reflects to nowadays.

It's true, everything is done for a fighting purpose; however, many of these fight guilds, and/or GvG'ers behavior has been completely counterproductive to the goal. If WvW is to get new people, these guilds/commanders, can't be off tagless, or silent tagging, doing their own thing on a map against another group. For starters, it takes up unnecessary map spots, but secondly, why would any potential new WvW'er have any incentive to remain in WvW when they log on and see no real activity?

Then we have the issue of these fight guilds constantly hopping servers, then destroying each server they moved to. It completely turns off the pugs (or again new potential WvW'ers). People wonder why BG can't be beat; they have a very large pug population that's been there from the beginning. Where exactly is the pug population of the other servers? I reckon they got fed up with guilds moving to their servers, pillaging them, moving up in Tiers they couldn't handle, then gave up. We probably could take the rest of the servers in NA, put them up against BG, and they'd still lose because they don't have the pugs, even despite, having far more guilds. Which brings me to the next point;

None of these fight guilds/GvG'ers never learned to adapt. Truth be told, that trash melee ball, leap in and swing like a madman back in the core days actually got countered months prior to HoT's release. So these guilds that were once self-proclaimed great, were getting absolutely destroyed by smaller groups. Then HoT hit which amplified the problem further, then PoF even more-so. It came to the point that if any guild group attempted this old style got destroyed, hence the whining on the forums, and hence the "please bring back the core days play style". All these guilds needed to do was adapt, simple as that, but instead wanted Anet to bend the game back to that low-skill trash melee meta. Which then brings me to my next point

If these guilds were so hell bent on fights (and think they're so good), they would simply break into towers or keeps regardless of how fortified or sieged up they were, and kill the enemy and/or farm them. The truth is, they can't do it, because they aren't good enough, because they never learned to actually adapt. So their raids are basically limited to flipping paper towers, and getting wiped on the battlefield by smaller numbers. I could sit here and list many of these guilds who quit awhile ago, those who quit recently, and those still active that fall under this category.

Truth is, it's these fight guilds and their GvG behavior is what's destroyed WvW, not Anet. They could have easily learned to adapt as to remain competitive instead of being beaten like drums by pugs.

maybe these fight guilds were expecting pugs to serve them milk and cookies..

[SkyShroud.2865]

@DeadlySynz.3471 said:

@"Arctisavange.7261" said:Sorry but over the years commanders have mainly gone for any sort of tower/keep flipping mainly cause it can draw out a fight. What i said right now doesnt even remotely refer to PPT loving.Main point being - everything is mainly done for fighting purpose, that especially reflects to nowadays.

It's true, everything is done for a fighting purpose; however, many of these fight guilds, and/or GvG'ers behavior has been completely counterproductive to the goal. If WvW is to get new people, these guilds/commanders, can't be off tagless, or silent tagging, doing their own thing on a map against another group. For starters, it takes up unnecessary map spots, but secondly, why would any potential new WvW'er have any incentive to remain in WvW when they log on and see no real activity?

Then we have the issue of these fight guilds constantly hopping servers, then destroying each server they moved to. It completely turns off the pugs (or again new potential WvW'ers). People wonder why BG can't be beat; they have a very large pug population that's been there from the beginning. Where exactly is the pug population of the other servers? I reckon they got fed up with guilds moving to their servers, pillaging them, moving up in Tiers they couldn't handle, then gave up. We probably could take the rest of the servers in NA, put them up against BG, and they'd still lose because they don't have the pugs, even despite, having far more guilds. Which brings me to the next point;

None of these fight guilds/GvG'ers never learned to adapt. Truth be told, that trash melee ball, leap in and swing like a madman back in the core days actually got countered months prior to HoT's release. So these guilds that were once self-proclaimed great, were getting absolutely destroyed by smaller groups. Then HoT hit which amplified the problem further, then PoF even more-so. It came to the point that if any guild group attempted this old style got destroyed, hence the whining on the forums, and hence the "please bring back the core days play style". All these guilds needed to do was adapt, simple as that, but instead wanted Anet to bend the game back to that low-skill trash melee meta. Which then brings me to my next point

If these guilds were so hell bent on fights (and think they're so good), they would simply break into towers or keeps regardless of how fortified or sieged up they were, and kill the enemy and/or farm them. The truth is, they can't do it, because they aren't good enough, because they never learned to actually adapt. So their raids are basically limited to flipping paper towers, and getting wiped on the battlefield by smaller numbers. I could sit here and list many of these guilds who quit awhile ago, those who quit recently, and those still active that fall under this category.

Truth is, it's these fight guilds and their GvG behavior is what's destroyed WvW, not Anet. They could have easily learned to adapt as to remain competitive instead of being beaten like drums by pugs.

The top guilds of the old days are gone, most "better" guilds now bandwagon and fill up their roster with exp players from each server they bandwagoned to. Some wouldn't even admit what they doing is bandwagoning. They don't believe they are part of the problems. They want to believe they got where they are through their own training and not because they go around draining the remnants of the disbanded guilds or exp people with growing frustration with the large number of noobs or loses.

Which come to a question, who are around to take in these large quantity of noobs? Very few guilds do that and these few guilds fill their roster mostly with nothing but noobs. This again create another problem for them, how are they gonna move forward with so many noobs and little exp players' guidance while having to face all these bandwagoners? Then you wonder why WvW keep bleeding rapidly.

[schokelmei.8271]

Sorry for not responding if there was a question involving my statements. A bit busy and this thread was growing far too large.

For those wondering why Anet employees doesn't show much on this forums there is an easy explanation. It takes a huge ton of time and I don't think any of the "forum moderators" are left that are able to make statements about serious problems of the game mode.Solution could be to join one of their community streams on twitch and ask important questions there politely. I tried this 2 weeks ago and was answered at once.They are really nice guys if you are too.

My question was a bit related to this topic, so for those interested:me: Why isn't Baruch Bay a full server? And will they get a link at the end of August?Anet: Baruch Bay cannot get the status full because it's the only Spanish language server and so it won't get a link.

The good thing is that it still isn't stacked as Blackgate and most likely will never be.