Necromancer Defense and "Blade Mail" Effects — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Necromancer Defense and "Blade Mail" Effects

Zex Anthon.8673Zex Anthon.8673 Member ✭✭✭
edited August 21, 2019 in Necromancer

Defense on necromancer has always involved soaking up damage rather than fully mitigating it. This is why necro has access to a larger health pool and life force, with no access to effects like blocks, evades, and invulnerability. This also means that necros defense is inherently worse than those of other classes. In any game, ignoring damage is better than tanking damage. That doesn't mean necro should get access to blocks, evades, and invulns. It means necro needs to do a better job of tanking damage. Necromancer has a very unique play style. Proper life force management can make shroud a very effective defense. Adding blocks, evades, or invulns to necro would remove its identity.

The Problem

The problem with tanking damage is there is currently no disincentive to continuously attacking. When any other profession puts up their defense, the reaction is to stop attacking or at least not waste any heavy cool downs. This reduces pressure on the defender, and provides windows for counter-action to take place. For a necro there is no reason to stop attacking even if they drop into shroud, hence the punching bag meme. Maybe in the early days of GW2, damage was so low that the large health pool provided enough survivability to exhaust cool downs and count as an effective defense. However with damage as it is today necro relies heavily on terrain and kiting for survivability, which makes skills like Spectral Walk and Flesh Wurm mandatory.

The Solution

What necros need is a way to disincentivize attackers from unloading everything and 100-0ing them. In games like DoTA2, successful tanks will build Blade Mail when they can no longer sustain the damage they are tanking. If necro's defense is it's large health pool, then they must get some way to disincentivize attacking for it to be an effective defense. I suggest the following changes to the Death Magic specialization:

Death Magic

  • Demonic Domination: This trait replaces Shrouded Removal. Upon entering shroud, taunt nearby foes.
  • Dark Defiance: This trait no longer grants protection. When taking damage gain a stacking buff for every X damage taken. When this buff reaches a stack of 5 explode dealing damage to nearby foes in a 240 radius. At 10 stacks, explode dealing damage, and convert a boon on nearby foes in a 360 radius. At 15 stacks, remove all stacks explode dealing massive damage, convert 2 boons, and fear nearby foes in a 600 radius. Stacks last for X seconds.
  • Diabolical Fortress: This trait replaces Corruptor's Fervor. Retaliation has improved effectiveness while in Death Shroud. You and your minions gain pulsating retaliation while you are in Death Shroud.

If necro still feels too much like a punching bag, then the damage from dark defiance and retaliation can be adjusted, or additional toughness could be added to Diabolical Fortress similar to how ferocity is added to reaper's onslaught/death perception to make those traits more effective.

Comments

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The only word that came to my mind after reading throught everything are: "Please no!"

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭

    What about getting retaliation? doesn't retaliation hurt folks who damage you? i think necros should get retal when they go into shroud or something alike and acts as a damage shield so whoever attacks gets hurt real bad.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Axl.8924 said:
    What about getting retaliation? doesn't retaliation hurt folks who damage you? i think necros should get retal when they go into shroud or something alike and acts as a damage shield so whoever attacks gets hurt real bad.

    I don't think, that this is a good idea.
    Cause then you get punished for attacking a necro in shroud, from retal
    and get punished for doing nothing (by shroud dmg)
    That's why I don't like (Condi) mesmer design.
    You put your clones up and just wait for the enemy to die. Enemy gets punished for walking (torment), casting (confusion) and doing nothing (getting more and more Condi stacks, as well as burn and bleed)

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spiteful_Spirit_(trait_skill)

    Spiteful Spirit gives you Retaliation (3s) per foe hit when entering Shroud

  • Gamble.4580Gamble.4580 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 20, 2019

    All necro need is worm instant cast. And it to be op like thf tele and starts cd count when placed. This alone will make it as mobile as the other melee classes. And give it a window to out play and kite

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Axl.8924 said:
    What about getting retaliation? doesn't retaliation hurt folks who damage you? i think necros should get retal when they go into shroud or something alike and acts as a damage shield so whoever attacks gets hurt real bad.

    Let's be honest, player hate being punished for hitting another player and are more prone to complain about being punished that correct their behavior. Focusing death magic toward being a punishing spec will only push other professions to complain, it won't improve the overall survivability of the necromancer. If anything it can only need to more indirect nerfs which would ruin the necromancer.

    PvP players have an absolute hate toward "being punished for hitting a foe" which is the reason behind the many nerfs that have happened not so long ago to the traits that gave windows of survivability upon taking damage or being CC'ed. If those suggested traits even happened to be used in PvP, It's easy to foresee a flood of "nerf necromancer to below the ground" threads sprout like crazy.

  • EremiteAngel.9765EremiteAngel.9765 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zex Anthon.8673 said:
    Defense on necromancer has always involved soaking up damage rather than fully mitigating it. This is why necro has access to a larger health pool and life force, with no access to effects like blocks, evades, and invulnerability. This also means that necros defense is inherently worse than those of other classes. In any game, ignoring damage is better than tanking damage. That doesn't mean necro should get access to blocks, evades, and invulns. It means necro needs to do a better job of tanking damage. Necromancer has a very unique play style. Proper life force management can make shroud a very effective defense. Adding blocks, evades, or invulns to necro would remove its identity.

    The Problem

    The problem with tanking damage is there is currently no disincentive to continuously attacking. When any other profession puts up their defense, the reaction is to stop attacking or at least not waste any heavy cool downs. This reduces pressure on the defender, and provides windows for counter-action to take place. For a necro there is no reason to stop attacking even if they drop into shroud, hence the punching bag meme. Maybe in the early days of GW2, damage was so low that the large health pool provided enough survivability to exhaust cool downs and count as an effective defense. However with damage as it is today necro relies heavily on terrain and kiting for survivability, which makes skills like Spectral Walk and Flesh Wurm mandatory.

    The Solution

    What necros need is a way to disincentivize attackers from unloading everything and 100-0ing them. In games like DoTA2, successful tanks will build Blade Mail when they can no longer sustain the damage they are tanking. If necro's defense is it's large health pool, then they must get some way to disincentivize attacking for it to be an effective defense. I suggest the following changes to the Death Magic specialization:

    Death Magic

    • Demonic Domination: This trait replaces Shrouded Removal. Upon entering shroud, taunt nearby foes.
    • Dark Defiance: This trait no longer grants protection. When taking damage gain a stacking buff for every X damage taken. When this buff reaches a stack of X explode dealing damage and convert a boon on nearby foes.
    • Diabolical Fortress: This trait replaces Corruptor's Fervor. Retaliation has improved effectiveness while in Death Shroud. You and your minions gain pulsating retaliation while you are in Death Shroud.

    If necro still feels too much like a punching bag, then the damage from dark defiance and retaliation can be adjusted, or additional toughness could be added to Diabolical Fortress similar to how ferocity is added to reaper's onslaught/death perception to make those traits more effective.

    I like your thought process.
    Reminds me of Diablo's Thorns effect.
    I would like to see your ideas implemented.
    Both Demonic Domination and Diabolical Fortress seems rather good, properly controlled by Shroud entry.
    Diabolical Fortress feels a bit weak though for a GM, and I would like to see it gain pulsing protection as well.
    Dark Defiance seems too open but can still work if it gave a clear indication before it explodes to allow for more counter-play.

    Visit 🏴‍☠️ Eremite's WvW Necromancy Graveyard 🏴‍☠️

    CD -> TC -> Mag -> GOM -> AR -> JQ

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Other than stating that Necro can get Retaliation, if they hit multiple foes when entering shroud, I will provide my own commentary.

    1) Give Necros Retaliation on a utility skill somewhere. Wells are a good place for this, Vampiric Rituals can give protection and retaliation. Necro needs more group support anyway.
    2) I like the idea of having a trait that makes Retaliation more effective, but that does not need to be more Retaliation damage, it could also be an added 10-20% damage reduction while under the effects of Retaliation, increased damage modifier, increased stats, or pulse Life Force. There is a lot that could go here and I think that Spite may be a better place for that than Death Magic.
    3) I think a pulsing retaliation would be too much. Nowhere else is there a pulsing retaliation. I think you could rework Spiteful Spirit to provide 6s of retaliation when you enter shroud though instead of relying on hitting a foe. With increased boon duration you could perma upkeep Retaliation so long as you didn't camp shroud for too long.

    Death Magic, should it EVER get reworked, should focus on making minions stronger by adding effects to their flipover skills.

    For instance: I'd love to see a trait that causes minion's active skills to fear and chill foes.
    I'd like to see another that taunts and slows foes.
    I'd like to see another that inflicts torment and confusion on foes.

    These would all have to be in the same tier though I think or each would only affect certain minions otherwise it would get OP fast.

  • Zex Anthon.8673Zex Anthon.8673 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:
    What about getting retaliation? doesn't retaliation hurt folks who damage you? i think necros should get retal when they go into shroud or something alike and acts as a damage shield so whoever attacks gets hurt real bad.

    Let's be honest, player hate being punished for hitting another player and are more prone to complain about being punished that correct their behavior. Focusing death magic toward being a punishing spec will only push other professions to complain, it won't improve the overall survivability of the necromancer. If anything it can only need to more indirect nerfs which would ruin the necromancer.

    PvP players have an absolute hate toward "being punished for hitting a foe" which is the reason behind the many nerfs that have happened not so long ago to the traits that gave windows of survivability upon taking damage or being CC'ed. If those suggested traits even happened to be used in PvP, It's easy to foresee a flood of "nerf necromancer to below the ground" threads sprout like crazy.

    The goal is not to punish players for attacking. The goal is to punish players for attacking unintelligently. If you waste all of your cool downs while the opponent is evading/blocking/invulning, you are punished for attacking by having all of your damage nullified. The same concept applies to taking damage upon hitting shroud.

    The reason those passive defense traits were removed/nerfed was because there really was no counterplay. Those traits offered safety nets for zero investment by the defender. The traits I'm proposing finally make shroud into an effective defense by reducing pressure while it is up. The counterplay is to wait until the necro drops out of shroud where they become vulnerable again for 10s. If the necro chooses to remain in shroud while pressure was effectively reduced, they are wasting resources that could be used later which lowers their overall sustain. This incentivizes the necro to use shroud as an active defense only when it is needed, and provides windows for counter pressure for both the necro and the opponent.

    The proposed change to Dark Defiance would provide necro with burst protection while out of shroud, that is counter-playable with clear indications of when it explodes (i.e. stacking buff, visual tells) and range dps.

  • Zex Anthon.8673Zex Anthon.8673 Member ✭✭✭

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:

    @Zex Anthon.8673 said:
    Defense on necromancer has always involved soaking up damage rather than fully mitigating it. This is why necro has access to a larger health pool and life force, with no access to effects like blocks, evades, and invulnerability. This also means that necros defense is inherently worse than those of other classes. In any game, ignoring damage is better than tanking damage. That doesn't mean necro should get access to blocks, evades, and invulns. It means necro needs to do a better job of tanking damage. Necromancer has a very unique play style. Proper life force management can make shroud a very effective defense. Adding blocks, evades, or invulns to necro would remove its identity.

    The Problem

    The problem with tanking damage is there is currently no disincentive to continuously attacking. When any other profession puts up their defense, the reaction is to stop attacking or at least not waste any heavy cool downs. This reduces pressure on the defender, and provides windows for counter-action to take place. For a necro there is no reason to stop attacking even if they drop into shroud, hence the punching bag meme. Maybe in the early days of GW2, damage was so low that the large health pool provided enough survivability to exhaust cool downs and count as an effective defense. However with damage as it is today necro relies heavily on terrain and kiting for survivability, which makes skills like Spectral Walk and Flesh Wurm mandatory.

    The Solution

    What necros need is a way to disincentivize attackers from unloading everything and 100-0ing them. In games like DoTA2, successful tanks will build Blade Mail when they can no longer sustain the damage they are tanking. If necro's defense is it's large health pool, then they must get some way to disincentivize attacking for it to be an effective defense. I suggest the following changes to the Death Magic specialization:

    Death Magic

    • Demonic Domination: This trait replaces Shrouded Removal. Upon entering shroud, taunt nearby foes.
    • Dark Defiance: This trait no longer grants protection. When taking damage gain a stacking buff for every X damage taken. When this buff reaches a stack of X explode dealing damage and convert a boon on nearby foes.
    • Diabolical Fortress: This trait replaces Corruptor's Fervor. Retaliation has improved effectiveness while in Death Shroud. You and your minions gain pulsating retaliation while you are in Death Shroud.

    If necro still feels too much like a punching bag, then the damage from dark defiance and retaliation can be adjusted, or additional toughness could be added to Diabolical Fortress similar to how ferocity is added to reaper's onslaught/death perception to make those traits more effective.

    I like your thought process.
    Reminds me of Diablo's Thorns effect.
    I would like to see your ideas implemented.
    Both Demonic Domination and Diabolical Fortress seems rather good, properly controlled by Shroud entry.
    Diabolical Fortress feels a bit weak though for a GM, and I would like to see it gain pulsing protection as well.
    Dark Defiance seems too open but can still work if it gave a clear indication before it explodes to allow for more counter-play.

    I was thinking pulsing retaliation on minions as well would be enough to justify it as a GM trait. However, added toughness, additional damage reduction, and pulsing protection are all ways to make the trait more effective for GM standards.

    Does cleaving multiple targets with retaliation stack?

    Dark Defiance could also gain increasingly dangerous effects at higher stack levels, providing many warning signs to avoid the damage (I edited my original post to show this). The counterplay is to burn slowly and wait for stacks to fall off, which is why it would be an effective defense.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zex Anthon.8673 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:
    What about getting retaliation? doesn't retaliation hurt folks who damage you? i think necros should get retal when they go into shroud or something alike and acts as a damage shield so whoever attacks gets hurt real bad.

    Let's be honest, player hate being punished for hitting another player and are more prone to complain about being punished that correct their behavior. Focusing death magic toward being a punishing spec will only push other professions to complain, it won't improve the overall survivability of the necromancer. If anything it can only need to more indirect nerfs which would ruin the necromancer.

    PvP players have an absolute hate toward "being punished for hitting a foe" which is the reason behind the many nerfs that have happened not so long ago to the traits that gave windows of survivability upon taking damage or being CC'ed. If those suggested traits even happened to be used in PvP, It's easy to foresee a flood of "nerf necromancer to below the ground" threads sprout like crazy.

    The goal is not to punish players for attacking. The goal is to punish players for attacking unintelligently. If you waste all of your cool downs while the opponent is evading/blocking/invulning, you are punished for attacking by having all of your damage nullified. The same concept applies to taking damage upon hitting shroud.

    The reason those passive defense traits were removed/nerfed was because there really was no counterplay. Those traits offered safety nets for zero investment by the defender. The traits I'm proposing finally make shroud into an effective defense by reducing pressure while it is up. The counterplay is to wait until the necro drops out of shroud where they become vulnerable again for 10s. If the necro chooses to remain in shroud while pressure was effectively reduced, they are wasting resources that could be used later which lowers their overall sustain. This incentivizes the necro to use shroud as an active defense only when it is needed, and provides windows for counter pressure for both the necro and the opponent.

    The proposed change to Dark Defiance would provide necro with burst protection while out of shroud, that is counter-playable with clear indications of when it explodes (i.e. stacking buff, visual tells) and range dps.

    I can't accept this philosophy of having a passive source of damage/support that punish the attacker for hitting you. In fact, it's even toxic because it will force other players to build for more instant damage. This would only reinforce the 1 hit KO gimmick meta and push farther away builds that deal less dps but are more manageable. Not to mention that in PvE it will simply be useless.

    This is just toxic mechanisms that push other professions toward the use of toxic gimmick.

    The traits I'm proposing finally make shroud into an effective defense by reducing pressure while it is up.

    That's not true, like I explained, people won't stop hitting the necromancer because there is a risk of a passive retaliation procing, they will just complain about the retaliation and ask for it to be nerfed. What you propose don't increase the defense or reduce the pressure on the necromancer in any way, it just give him passive extra damage without modifying it's behavior or it's foes' behavior in combat.

    The game as been out for 7-8 years, it's common knowledge that retaliation effects don't stop other players from hitting your toon. At best it make them complain that it's OP on the forum, ask for nerfs and ANet end up agreeing.

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Zex Anthon.8673 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:
    What about getting retaliation? doesn't retaliation hurt folks who damage you? i think necros should get retal when they go into shroud or something alike and acts as a damage shield so whoever attacks gets hurt real bad.

    Let's be honest, player hate being punished for hitting another player and are more prone to complain about being punished that correct their behavior. Focusing death magic toward being a punishing spec will only push other professions to complain, it won't improve the overall survivability of the necromancer. If anything it can only need to more indirect nerfs which would ruin the necromancer.

    PvP players have an absolute hate toward "being punished for hitting a foe" which is the reason behind the many nerfs that have happened not so long ago to the traits that gave windows of survivability upon taking damage or being CC'ed. If those suggested traits even happened to be used in PvP, It's easy to foresee a flood of "nerf necromancer to below the ground" threads sprout like crazy.

    The goal is not to punish players for attacking. The goal is to punish players for attacking unintelligently. If you waste all of your cool downs while the opponent is evading/blocking/invulning, you are punished for attacking by having all of your damage nullified. The same concept applies to taking damage upon hitting shroud.

    The reason those passive defense traits were removed/nerfed was because there really was no counterplay. Those traits offered safety nets for zero investment by the defender. The traits I'm proposing finally make shroud into an effective defense by reducing pressure while it is up. The counterplay is to wait until the necro drops out of shroud where they become vulnerable again for 10s. If the necro chooses to remain in shroud while pressure was effectively reduced, they are wasting resources that could be used later which lowers their overall sustain. This incentivizes the necro to use shroud as an active defense only when it is needed, and provides windows for counter pressure for both the necro and the opponent.

    The proposed change to Dark Defiance would provide necro with burst protection while out of shroud, that is counter-playable with clear indications of when it explodes (i.e. stacking buff, visual tells) and range dps.

    I can't accept this philosophy of having a passive source of damage/support that punish the attacker for hitting you. In fact, it's even toxic because it will force other players to build for more instant damage. This would only reinforce the 1 hit KO gimmick meta and push farther away builds that deal less dps but are more manageable. Not to mention that in PvE it will simply be useless.

    This is just toxic mechanisms that push other professions toward the use of toxic gimmick.

    The traits I'm proposing finally make shroud into an effective defense by reducing pressure while it is up.

    That's not true, like I explained, people won't stop hitting the necromancer because there is a risk of a passive retaliation procing, they will just complain about the retaliation and ask for it to be nerfed. What you propose don't increase the defense or reduce the pressure on the necromancer in any way, it just give him passive extra damage without modifying it's behavior or it's foes' behavior in combat.

    The game as been out for 7-8 years, it's common knowledge that retaliation effects don't stop other players from hitting your toon. At best it make them complain that it's OP on the forum, ask for nerfs and ANet end up agreeing.

    Then can we please get mobility buff to escape or a kitten ton of invulns?

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 21, 2019

    @Zex Anthon.8673 said:
    which makes skills like Spectral Walk and Flesh Wurm mandatory.

    This sums up all necro problems. The whole tanking problem is actually not a problem. That tankiness can only be achieved through these two skills is a problem.

    But that's not exclusive to necro. Ever tried warrior without endure pain or mesmer without blink or thief without shadowstep or guardian without renewed focus? All these examples become extremely weak if not unplayable without these utility/elite skills.

    I think anet just accepted the fact that they won't achieve build diversity in competitive play (due to incompetence - be it not enough personal resources or lack of creativity - I don't care). They are happy when the overall balance is in the state of acceptable when the next expac lauches as then they have to focus on rebalancing the expac mechanics.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Axl.8924 said:
    Then can we please get mobility buff to escape or a kitten ton of invulns?

    I believe that ANet can probably make an E-spec with "mobility" on it's weapon or utility but it will most likely come at the cost of the mobility on the shroud skill. As for invul, granted how rigid ANet is when it come to the design of the necromancer's defense, I doubt it. At best we will get damage transfert to a minion. Beside, Unholy sanctuary's design force the necromancer's defense into the "in-shroud" skills which reduce even more the likelyhood of a proper invuln skill.

  • Anchoku.8142Anchoku.8142 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I have a problem with passive defense traits.

    First, tanking is active aggro and defense management, not passive. A functional tank foregoes high dps for skills like block, stability, healing, dodging, mobility, and other aggro management tools. A tank does not stand and suck up damage. Taking damage should reduce aggro, not increase it.

    A tank's job is to control a mob's position and generate aggro to maintain a mob's attention. It is supposed to feel like work because it is work and is normally critical for team success by preventing other members with higher dps or heal capability from being focused. Aggro should be calculated from outgoing damage plus outgoing healing minus damage taken, among other things. A tank uses skills to create a large imbalance in damage given versus taken, skills to block damage, and skills to block or prevent control effects. Necro is bad at two of those three things so it cannot properly tank.

    Arenanet's aggro formula relies heavily on toughness making aggro control overly simple. Maybe that is why people still seem to think face-tanking is a good thing when face-tanking is tanking completely wrong.

    Please forgive the rant but this is a key weakness in the game's design, imo.

  • Zex Anthon.8673Zex Anthon.8673 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Zex Anthon.8673 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:
    What about getting retaliation? doesn't retaliation hurt folks who damage you? i think necros should get retal when they go into shroud or something alike and acts as a damage shield so whoever attacks gets hurt real bad.

    Let's be honest, player hate being punished for hitting another player and are more prone to complain about being punished that correct their behavior. Focusing death magic toward being a punishing spec will only push other professions to complain, it won't improve the overall survivability of the necromancer. If anything it can only need to more indirect nerfs which would ruin the necromancer.

    PvP players have an absolute hate toward "being punished for hitting a foe" which is the reason behind the many nerfs that have happened not so long ago to the traits that gave windows of survivability upon taking damage or being CC'ed. If those suggested traits even happened to be used in PvP, It's easy to foresee a flood of "nerf necromancer to below the ground" threads sprout like crazy.

    The goal is not to punish players for attacking. The goal is to punish players for attacking unintelligently. If you waste all of your cool downs while the opponent is evading/blocking/invulning, you are punished for attacking by having all of your damage nullified. The same concept applies to taking damage upon hitting shroud.

    The reason those passive defense traits were removed/nerfed was because there really was no counterplay. Those traits offered safety nets for zero investment by the defender. The traits I'm proposing finally make shroud into an effective defense by reducing pressure while it is up. The counterplay is to wait until the necro drops out of shroud where they become vulnerable again for 10s. If the necro chooses to remain in shroud while pressure was effectively reduced, they are wasting resources that could be used later which lowers their overall sustain. This incentivizes the necro to use shroud as an active defense only when it is needed, and provides windows for counter pressure for both the necro and the opponent.

    The proposed change to Dark Defiance would provide necro with burst protection while out of shroud, that is counter-playable with clear indications of when it explodes (i.e. stacking buff, visual tells) and range dps.

    I can't accept this philosophy of having a passive source of damage/support that punish the attacker for hitting you. In fact, it's even toxic because it will force other players to build for more instant damage. This would only reinforce the 1 hit KO gimmick meta and push farther away builds that deal less dps but are more manageable. Not to mention that in PvE it will simply be useless.

    This is just toxic mechanisms that push other professions toward the use of toxic gimmick.

    The traits I'm proposing finally make shroud into an effective defense by reducing pressure while it is up.

    That's not true, like I explained, people won't stop hitting the necromancer because there is a risk of a passive retaliation procing, they will just complain about the retaliation and ask for it to be nerfed. What you propose don't increase the defense or reduce the pressure on the necromancer in any way, it just give him passive extra damage without modifying it's behavior or it's foes' behavior in combat.

    The game as been out for 7-8 years, it's common knowledge that retaliation effects don't stop other players from hitting your toon. At best it make them complain that it's OP on the forum, ask for nerfs and ANet end up agreeing.

    I think your missing the point. As it stands, shroud is not an effective defense because there is no incentive to stop attacking when shroud is up. For blocks you stop attacking to prevent your damage from being nullified. With shroud the incentive is to output more damage to overwhelm the large health pool.

    Shroud is anything but passive. It's tied to a resource that drains itself over time and is periodically locked behind a cool down. The fact that there's resource management on top of a cool down makes it one of the most active mechanics in the game. Adding stronger retaliation effects doesn't magically make it a passive mechanic. You still need to activate shroud to gain access to the effect.

    Yes a stronger retaliation would promote burst. That's why I suggested those changes to Dark Defiance. Burst can still be a thing but they have to play around the explosion procs. The Necro can actively interact with this mechanic too, by holding shroud until reaching the stack threshold and taunting with Demonic Domination.

    Your conclusion that these "blade mail" effects won't deter attackers is very disingenuous. How has this mechanic been implemented in so many other games successfully? If it doesn't deter attackers then that means it needs tweaking. Increase the retaliation effectiveness until opponents start backing off. If the life force drain is too slow for it to be considered active, then add an increase life force degeneration for taking the trait.

    To say that people will complain is the reason for not implementing a potentially cool and engaging mechanic is completely idiotic. There will always be complaints no matter what Anet does. Does that mean they should change nothing about the game? And who are you to say that people would call for necros head on a spike with these changes? Are you from the future? Do you have a crystal ball? Maybe if people played against these changes they would find it's more fun than punching a sack of potatoes.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zex Anthon.8673 said:
    I think your missing the point. As it stands, shroud is not an effective defense because there is no incentive to stop attacking when shroud is up. For blocks you stop attacking to prevent your damage from being nullified. With shroud the incentive is to output more damage to overwhelm the large health pool.

    Shroud is anything but passive. It's tied to a resource that drains itself over time and is periodically locked behind a cool down. The fact that there's resource management on top of a cool down makes it one of the most active mechanics in the game. Adding stronger retaliation effects doesn't magically make it a passive mechanic. You still need to activate shroud to gain access to the effect.

    Yes a stronger retaliation would promote burst. That's why I suggested those changes to Dark Defiance. Burst can still be a thing but they have to play around the explosion procs. The Necro can actively interact with this mechanic too, by holding shroud until reaching the stack threshold and taunting with Demonic Domination.

    Your conclusion that these "blade mail" effects won't deter attackers is very disingenuous. How has this mechanic been implemented in so many other games successfully? If it doesn't deter attackers then that means it needs tweaking. Increase the retaliation effectiveness until opponents start backing off. If the life force drain is too slow for it to be considered active, then add an increase life force degeneration for taking the trait.

    To say that people will complain is the reason for not implementing a potentially cool and engaging mechanic is completely idiotic. There will always be complaints no matter what Anet does. Does that mean they should change nothing about the game? And who are you to say that people would call for necros head on a spike with these changes? Are you from the future? Do you have a crystal ball? Maybe if people played against these changes they would find it's more fun than punching a sack of potatoes.

    Nope i'm from the present and i've seen the past.

    At the moment the game already have retaliation, multiple auras and confusion that work based on a retaliatory effect. ANet purposedly keep most of those tools at abysmal level and players already regularly complain that retaliation deal to much damage but that doesn't prevent them to hit their foes when they have retal. Heck! Even confusion receive so much hate that it's ridiculous.

    Experience/history show that those kind of effects don't work as defensive mean in GW2 and that players would complain and not adapt to them in the way that you believe they will. At the very least the current traits that you aim to replace give a very good condition damage reduction to the necromancer which is thematically more fitting to the GW2's necromancer than retaliation effects are.

    NB.: I don't know what you find cool and engaging into this mechanic but personnally all I see is the poor defense of the necromancer falling to an even lower level and the complain about the necromancer increasing. So absolutely nothing good.

  • Zex Anthon.8673Zex Anthon.8673 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Zex Anthon.8673 said:
    I think your missing the point. As it stands, shroud is not an effective defense because there is no incentive to stop attacking when shroud is up. For blocks you stop attacking to prevent your damage from being nullified. With shroud the incentive is to output more damage to overwhelm the large health pool.

    Shroud is anything but passive. It's tied to a resource that drains itself over time and is periodically locked behind a cool down. The fact that there's resource management on top of a cool down makes it one of the most active mechanics in the game. Adding stronger retaliation effects doesn't magically make it a passive mechanic. You still need to activate shroud to gain access to the effect.

    Yes a stronger retaliation would promote burst. That's why I suggested those changes to Dark Defiance. Burst can still be a thing but they have to play around the explosion procs. The Necro can actively interact with this mechanic too, by holding shroud until reaching the stack threshold and taunting with Demonic Domination.

    Your conclusion that these "blade mail" effects won't deter attackers is very disingenuous. How has this mechanic been implemented in so many other games successfully? If it doesn't deter attackers then that means it needs tweaking. Increase the retaliation effectiveness until opponents start backing off. If the life force drain is too slow for it to be considered active, then add an increase life force degeneration for taking the trait.

    To say that people will complain is the reason for not implementing a potentially cool and engaging mechanic is completely idiotic. There will always be complaints no matter what Anet does. Does that mean they should change nothing about the game? And who are you to say that people would call for necros head on a spike with these changes? Are you from the future? Do you have a crystal ball? Maybe if people played against these changes they would find it's more fun than punching a sack of potatoes.

    Nope i'm from the present and i've seen the past.

    At the moment the game already have retaliation, multiple auras and confusion that work based on a retaliatory effect. ANet purposedly keep most of those tools at abysmal level and players already regularly complain that retaliation deal to much damage but that doesn't prevent them to hit their foes when they have retal. Heck! Even confusion receive so much hate that it's ridiculous.

    Experience/history show that those kind of effects don't work as defensive mean in GW2 and that players would complain and not adapt to them in the way that you believe they will. At the very least the current traits that you aim to replace give a very good condition damage reduction to the necromancer which is thematically more fitting to the GW2's necromancer than retaliation effects are.

    NB.: I don't know what you find cool and engaging into this mechanic but personnally all I see is the poor defense of the necromancer falling to an even lower level and the complain about the necromancer increasing. So absolutely nothing good.

    Retaliation has never been implemented with increased effectiveness in a PvP environment. Saying "adding it would not deter attackers," is purely conjecture. The effectiveness could be repeatedly increased until it serves as an effective defense. If you are arguing that no amount of retaliatory effect would make an effective defense. Then, as I stated before, this mechanic has already been implemented successfully in other games. You can argue that GW2 is sufficiently different to other games, that this mechanic just won't work with within the context of GW2. I would say we wouldn't know unless we tried. And for that matter, this mechanic has been implemented in GW2 quite effectively actually. Gorseval's Vivid Echo is a retaliatory effect that causes slow burning when there is not sufficient support. Even the Holo Eye of Zhaitan in the recent Dragon Bash had a powerful retaliation effect that could be fatal if you weren't paying attention. Subject 6 from the Thaumanova Fractal has Overload, which functions similarly to my suggested changes to Dark Defiance, is a retaliatory effect that if ignored with mindless attacking results in a team wipe.

    You claim that retaliatory effects are not "thematically fitting" for GW2's necromancer. Have you ever played GW1? If you have, then you would know that a lot of necromancer skills involved punishing foes for action. Look at skills like Spiteful Spirit, which actually exists in GW2, and it gives retaliation! Other examples being Spoil Victor, Insidious Parasite, Soul Leech.

    You bring up a good point about condition damage though. Removing Corruptor's Fervor does remove some condition mitigation, and in fact, the condi bombing is another form of counter play to this mechanic. Maybe Diabolical Fortress could have an additional effect like deal damage for each condition that is applied while in shroud. I suggest moving Corruptor's Fervor into the master tier, replacing Deadly Strength. It currently competes too heavily with Unholy Sactuary for the same job, and it fits in that track more than Deadly Strength does.

    I find action, counteraction, and counter-counteraction to be fun and engaging. Currently necro gets oppressed by overwhelming damage and cc, and is not allowed to counteract. If shroud was built to actually deter attackers then that provides windows of opportunity for counteraction to take place.

  • Zex Anthon.8673Zex Anthon.8673 Member ✭✭✭

    @Anchoku.8142 said:
    I have a problem with passive defense traits.

    First, tanking is active aggro and defense management, not passive. A functional tank foregoes high dps for skills like block, stability, healing, dodging, mobility, and other aggro management tools. A tank does not stand and suck up damage. Taking damage should reduce aggro, not increase it.

    A tank's job is to control a mob's position and generate aggro to maintain a mob's attention. It is supposed to feel like work because it is work and is normally critical for team success by preventing other members with higher dps or heal capability from being focused. Aggro should be calculated from outgoing damage plus outgoing healing minus damage taken, among other things. A tank uses skills to create a large imbalance in damage given versus taken, skills to block damage, and skills to block or prevent control effects. Necro is bad at two of those three things so it cannot properly tank.

    Arenanet's aggro formula relies heavily on toughness making aggro control overly simple. Maybe that is why people still seem to think face-tanking is a good thing when face-tanking is tanking completely wrong.

    Please forgive the rant but this is a key weakness in the game's design, imo.

    From a PvE standpoint I agree with you. Tanking should involve not taking damage. Contrary to your belief, I think this is something that GW2 does very well, except a tanks job in GW2 is "do not die", and they achieve this by using blocks evades, invulns, etc. Not by face-tanking and healing the damage. This is why the tank in GW2 raids is always a Mesmer.

    In competitive games the tanks job is to "pull aggro" off teammates and "not die". They achieve this by being a constant threat with ramping damage (i.e. Bristleback from DoTA2), and with active control effects that pull aggro like taunts (i.e. Axe). In GW2 PvP the tanks job is to hold a point and not die, and often the counter play is to rotate around these "bunkers" to win the game. That means that in a team fight scenario there is no one to pull aggro. Therefore, aggro generally falls on the necro for being the easiest target because of its poor defensive capabilities, and for being a ramping threat with life force gain.

    The traits I'm suggesting are not passive, all they do is augment an active mechanic so that it can function more like a proper defense. A proper defense either nullifies or deters damage. You can argue that the suggestion to Dark Defiance is too passive. Maybe it should only accumulate stacks while in shroud. I figured necro needs some form of burst protection out of shroud, and since it can be actively interacted with by both sides, I don't consider it a passive mechanic. If the necro is about to explode, then the opponent can move out of range to avoid damage. Likewise, the necro could chase players, or pull them so that they remain within range of the proc.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭

    This is something that belongs on Guardian or Warrior, not Necro.

    Necro is still a scholar profession at the end of the day, they shouldn't need this sort of offensive defense.

    What they probably wanted to do with Death Magic is have Minions protect their master and traits to boost Minion durability and lifespan, but this entire gimmick is condensed into a single skill called "Rise!"

    Solution?

    Make all active Minions behave like Rise! and take 33% of the damage dealt to Necro and shared amongst themselves.

    Have a new trait which causes the Necromancer to gain bonus Toughness based on Lifeforce (up to a 1000 at full Life Force, and additionally grant the Necro more Life Force from Minion deaths.

    This will make Minonmancers disgustingly tanky since they churn out minions plus have Lifeforce to enter shroud on minion deaths, which occur whenever they spread the damage they take to them.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zex Anthon.8673 said:
    Retaliation has never been implemented with increased effectiveness in a PvP environment. Saying "adding it would not deter attackers," is purely conjecture.

    Retaliation used to deal more damage in PvP and was nerfed because players complained that it dealt to much damage.

    The effectiveness could be repeatedly increased until it serves as an effective defense. If you are arguing that no amount of retaliatory effect would make an effective defense. Then, as I stated before, this mechanic has already been implemented successfully in other games. You can argue that GW2 is sufficiently different to other games, that this mechanic just won't work with within the context of GW2. I would say we wouldn't know unless we tried. And for that matter, this mechanic has been implemented in GW2 quite effectively actually. Gorseval's Vivid Echo is a retaliatory effect that causes slow burning when there is not sufficient support. Even the Holo Eye of Zhaitan in the recent Dragon Bash had a powerful retaliation effect that could be fatal if you weren't paying attention. Subject 6 from the Thaumanova Fractal has Overload, which functions similarly to my suggested changes to Dark Defiance, is a retaliatory effect that if ignored with mindless attacking results in a team wipe.

    You are aware that those subject 6 stop attacking when it "charge" it's "retaliation" right? This totally different from what you suggest. As for goreseval, wivid echo is basically the boon retaliation.

    You claim that retaliatory effects are not "thematically fitting" for GW2's necromancer. Have you ever played GW1? If you have, then you would know that a lot of necromancer skills involved punishing foes for action. Look at skills like Spiteful Spirit, which actually exists in GW2, and it gives retaliation! Other examples being Spoil Victor, Insidious Parasite, Soul Leech.

    Thematically, in GW2, retaliation is the domain of the guardian. And thematically, in GW2, condition management is the domain of the necromancer. The GW1 skills that you list are closer to the effect of confusion which unfortunately is a thematic domain given to the mesmer.

    An effect being the domain of another profession doesn't mean that other profession can't access their effect, but they won't specialize in it. You suggest DM to specialize in a domain that don't belong to the GW2's necromancer.

    You bring up a good point about condition damage though. Removing Corruptor's Fervor does remove some condition mitigation, and in fact, the condi bombing is another form of counter play to this mechanic. Maybe Diabolical Fortress could have an additional effect like deal damage for each condition that is applied while in shroud. I suggest moving Corruptor's Fervor into the master tier, replacing Deadly Strength. It currently competes too heavily with Unholy Sactuary for the same job, and it fits in that track more than Deadly Strength does.

    The issue is that all your suggestions go against the codes that define the GW2's necromancer.

    • The necromancer isn't a profession that taunt, the necromancer fear it's foes.
    • The necromancer isn't a profession that retaliate or block, it's a profession that disregard the fact that he take damage.

    You also bring into the game new mechanisms with how you revise Dark defiance when ANet just introduced dark aura which would be thematically closer to the necromancer's thematic and your aim. It's difficult to accept that you add those new things that don't really belong to the necromancer when there is this juicy dark aura that technically belong to no one at the moment.

    Honnestly, retaliating that's the job of another profession: guardian. They have a whole lot of trait dedicated to that job and that wouldn't bother me to see ANet expand on this theme for the guardian benefit. The necromancer's job is to manage condition, taking them on him, send them back on it's foes... etc. The current line of traits that you aim to replace perfectly fit this design by making the necromancer more resilient to the conditions in such a way that you can accumulate more of them before sending them back.

    Furthermore, this mechanism favor the current high damage/ 1 hit KO meta by effectively punishing low damage and high hit rate builds. Technically you want those high hit rate and low damage builds to hit you because they are the one that have a chance to inflict you with condition damages that you would be able to send back. The whole necromancer lean toward the idea of accumulating and sending back conditions not the idea of sending back power based damage.

    I find action, counteraction, and counter-counteraction to be fun and engaging. Currently necro gets oppressed by overwhelming damage and cc, and is not allowed to counteract. If shroud was built to actually deter attackers then that provides windows of opportunity for counteraction to take place.

    The necromancer already does that, but he specialize in doing that with conditions. Doing that with power based damage isn't it's way to do things. DM already support this idea by making the necromancer more resilient to condition damage and power damage. A necromancer is designed to want to have conditions on him to be able to send them on it's foes or simply consume/convert them to strengthen himself. At the moment DM support this idea by allowing the necromancer to be more resilient to conditions damages, having minion take conditions from you and send them back conditions to your foes or even extending your life by entering shroud when you're about to die. In this regard DM is a traitline that perfectly fit the theme of the GW2's necromancer, the only real grievance that one can have about the traitline is the high number of minion traits because minions aren't a part of the main mechanism defining GW2's necromancer: the "shroud". Since they aren't part of this main mechanism, they become optional and thus become niche skills which waste the potential of 5 necromancer's traits for non niche (minion) builds.

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 22, 2019

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Zex Anthon.8673 said:
    Retaliation has never been implemented with increased effectiveness in a PvP environment. Saying "adding it would not deter attackers," is purely conjecture.

    Retaliation used to deal more damage in PvP and was nerfed because players complained that it dealt to much damage.

    The effectiveness could be repeatedly increased until it serves as an effective defense. If you are arguing that no amount of retaliatory effect would make an effective defense. Then, as I stated before, this mechanic has already been implemented successfully in other games. You can argue that GW2 is sufficiently different to other games, that this mechanic just won't work with within the context of GW2. I would say we wouldn't know unless we tried. And for that matter, this mechanic has been implemented in GW2 quite effectively actually. Gorseval's Vivid Echo is a retaliatory effect that causes slow burning when there is not sufficient support. Even the Holo Eye of Zhaitan in the recent Dragon Bash had a powerful retaliation effect that could be fatal if you weren't paying attention. Subject 6 from the Thaumanova Fractal has Overload, which functions similarly to my suggested changes to Dark Defiance, is a retaliatory effect that if ignored with mindless attacking results in a team wipe.

    You are aware that those subject 6 stop attacking when it "charge" it's "retaliation" right? This totally different from what you suggest. As for goreseval, wivid echo is basically the boon retaliation.

    You claim that retaliatory effects are not "thematically fitting" for GW2's necromancer. Have you ever played GW1? If you have, then you would know that a lot of necromancer skills involved punishing foes for action. Look at skills like Spiteful Spirit, which actually exists in GW2, and it gives retaliation! Other examples being Spoil Victor, Insidious Parasite, Soul Leech.

    Thematically, in GW2, retaliation is the domain of the guardian. And thematically, in GW2, condition management is the domain of the necromancer. The GW1 skills that you list are closer to the effect of confusion which unfortunately is a thematic domain given to the mesmer.

    An effect being the domain of another profession doesn't mean that other profession can't access their effect, but they won't specialize in it. You suggest DM to specialize in a domain that don't belong to the GW2's necromancer.

    You bring up a good point about condition damage though. Removing Corruptor's Fervor does remove some condition mitigation, and in fact, the condi bombing is another form of counter play to this mechanic. Maybe Diabolical Fortress could have an additional effect like deal damage for each condition that is applied while in shroud. I suggest moving Corruptor's Fervor into the master tier, replacing Deadly Strength. It currently competes too heavily with Unholy Sactuary for the same job, and it fits in that track more than Deadly Strength does.

    The issue is that all your suggestions go against the codes that define the GW2's necromancer.

    • The necromancer isn't a profession that taunt, the necromancer fear it's foes.
    • The necromancer isn't a profession that retaliate or block, it's a profession that disregard the fact that he take damage.

    You also bring into the game new mechanisms with how you revise Dark defiance when ANet just introduced dark aura which would be thematically closer to the necromancer's thematic and your aim. It's difficult to accept that you add those new things that don't really belong to the necromancer when there is this juicy dark aura that technically belong to no one at the moment.

    Honnestly, retaliating that's the job of another profession: guardian. They have a whole lot of trait dedicated to that job and that wouldn't bother me to see ANet expand on this theme for the guardian benefit. The necromancer's job is to manage condition, taking them on him, send them back on it's foes... etc. The current line of traits that you aim to replace perfectly fit this design by making the necromancer more resilient to the conditions in such a way that you can accumulate more of them before sending them back.

    Furthermore, this mechanism favor the current high damage/ 1 hit KO meta by effectively punishing low damage and high hit rate builds. Technically you want those high hit rate and low damage builds to hit you because they are the one that have a chance to inflict you with condition damages that you would be able to send back. The whole necromancer lean toward the idea of accumulating and sending back conditions not the idea of sending back power based damage.

    I find action, counteraction, and counter-counteraction to be fun and engaging. Currently necro gets oppressed by overwhelming damage and cc, and is not allowed to counteract. If shroud was built to actually deter attackers then that provides windows of opportunity for counteraction to take place.

    The necromancer already does that, but he specialize in doing that with conditions. Doing that with power based damage isn't it's way to do things. DM already support this idea by making the necromancer more resilient to condition damage and power damage. A necromancer is designed to want to have conditions on him to be able to send them on it's foes or simply consume/convert them to strengthen himself. At the moment DM support this idea by allowing the necromancer to be more resilient to conditions damages, having minion take conditions from you and send them back conditions to your foes or even extending your life by entering shroud when you're about to die. In this regard DM is a traitline that perfectly fit the theme of the GW2's necromancer, the only real grievance that one can have about the traitline is the high number of minion traits because minions aren't a part of the main mechanism defining GW2's necromancer: the "shroud". Since they aren't part of this main mechanism, they become optional and thus become niche skills which waste the potential of 5 necromancer's traits for non niche (minion) builds.

    I like necros being condition masters and boon corruptors, but they need something to survive and not be a punching bag in pvp.

    Not having blocks invulns and or some mobility to escape sucks because everyone just ccs you and blows you up 100-0 and there is nothing you can do.

    Buff fear for instance? you mentioned fear can we get fear to be stronger? make it so people feared do less dmg make it so if reaper is in shroud he doesn't have to face tank constantly since it disappears in seconds if you got a group of folks battering on shroud. Improve the shouts more to be viable such as the wurm wraith walk

    If we cannot have more sustain, then we need mobility to escape. I am tired of being the slowest caster to escape in pvp personally.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Axl.8924 said:
    I like necros being condition masters and boon corruptors, but they need something to survive and not be a punching bag in pvp.

    Not having blocks invulns and or some mobility to escape sucks because everyone just ccs you and blows you up 100-0 and there is nothing you can do.

    I agree that it's frustrating but it's not in the traits that mobility and invuln/block need to be implemented. There is no doubt that there is a need to fix DM but the issue of DM isn't the traits that benefit all builds inconditionnally. Ultimately, the issue of DM is the minions traits because they would be fine for a mesmer or a ranger whose main mechanisms are directly related to minions but they are just restrictive for a necromancer.

    If instead of the shroud the necromancer's mechanism was to spawn minions every X seconds or if the necromancer had a skill that spawn a minion on each of it's weapon skill kit, then having 5 traits with heavy focus on minions wouldn't be a problem. But it's not the case, minions are optional utilities and having 4 traits focusing in death magic on them cripple the traitline more than anything.

    The necromancer's main mechanism is the shroud and it's main thematic is condition management. Minions are just flavor and DM having an heavy focus on them make no sense in this setup.

    Let's be honest, what DM need is an e-spec focused on minions and most of the minion traits transfered to this traitline in such a way that DM gain room to focus on other things like support or combos. Even BM somehow need this because it's awkward to see one of it's minor trait's value shot up by at least 400% if you fill your utility bar with minions.

    I know that a lot of players want to fullfill their fantasy of being a minion master but this fantasy isn't compatible with the shroud as a main mechanism and having 5 traits dedicated to this fantasy is pure nonsense in a game that usually dedicate a single trait to each kind of utility skills. The trend is even to make traits that focus on a single weapon to lose this focus in order to increase the player trait choice yet we still got these minions traits.

    The solution isn't to make other professions whine because they've hit the necromancer and it hurted them, the solution is to reduce the number of traits focused on a single kind of utility skill like it's a main mechanic while it's not.

    • Give a minion master e-spec with a main mechanism focused on spawning minion,
    • Tranfert the minion related trait to this e-spec
    • And add proper versatile/non-restrictive traits fitting into the necromancer's design into DM to fill the empty spots.

    This is the proper way to solve the DM puzzle. Death magic have a parasite called minions traits and it need to be removed for it to become an healthy traitline. If this parasite is an important flavor of the necromancer, you just transplant it into an environment where it can express himself and become a symbionte but you don't keep it into a parasitic state, eating at the strength and lifeline of the host.

    And since we are on the topic of DM, Unholy sanctuary is also a kind of parasite preventing defense to be moved out of the necromancer's main mechanism when designing e-spec. There is a need to modify the trait in order to allow the necromancer's mechanism to specialize itself into different directions instead of being an eternal jack-of-all-trades mechanism preventing the necromancer to shine in different aspects by sacrificing the opposite aspect.

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 22, 2019

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:
    I like necros being condition masters and boon corruptors, but they need something to survive and not be a punching bag in pvp.

    Not having blocks invulns and or some mobility to escape sucks because everyone just ccs you and blows you up 100-0 and there is nothing you can do.

    I agree that it's frustrating but it's not in the traits that mobility and invuln/block need to be implemented. There is no doubt that there is a need to fix DM but the issue of DM isn't the traits that benefit all builds inconditionnally. Ultimately, the issue of DM is the minions traits because they would be fine for a mesmer or a ranger whose main mechanisms are directly related to minions but they are just restrictive for a necromancer.

    If instead of the shroud the necromancer's mechanism was to spawn minions every X seconds or if the necromancer had a skill that spawn a minion on each of it's weapon skill kit, then having 5 traits with heavy focus on minions wouldn't be a problem. But it's not the case, minions are optional utilities and having 4 traits focusing in death magic on them cripple the traitline more than anything.

    The necromancer's main mechanism is the shroud and it's main thematic is condition management. Minions are just flavor and DM having an heavy focus on them make no sense in this setup.

    Let's be honest, what DM need is an e-spec focused on minions and most of the minion traits transfered to this traitline in such a way that DM gain room to focus on other things like support or combos. Even BM somehow need this because it's awkward to see one of it's minor trait's value shot up by at least 400% if you fill your utility bar with minions.

    I know that a lot of players want to fullfill their fantasy of being a minion master but this fantasy isn't compatible with the shroud as a main mechanism and having 5 traits dedicated to this fantasy is pure nonsense in a game that usually dedicate a single trait to each kind of utility skills. The trend is even to make traits that focus on a single weapon to lose this focus in order to increase the player trait choice yet we still got these minions traits.

    The solution isn't to make other professions whine because they've hit the necromancer and it hurted them, the solution is to reduce the number of traits focused on a single kind of utility skill like it's a main mechanic while it's not.

    • Give a minion master e-spec with a main mechanism focused on spawning minion,
    • Tranfert the minion related trait to this e-spec
    • And add proper versatile/non-restrictive traits fitting into the necromancer's design into DM to fill the empty spots.

    This is the proper way to solve the DM puzzle. Death magic have a parasite called minions traits and it need to be removed for it to become an healthy traitline. If this parasite is an important flavor of the necromancer, you just transplant it into an environment where it can express himself and become a symbionte but you don't keep it into a parasitic state, eating at the strength and lifeline of the host.

    And since we are on the topic of DM, Unholy sanctuary is also a kind of parasite preventing defense to be moved out of the necromancer's main mechanism when designing e-spec. There is a need to modify the trait in order to allow the necromancer's mechanism to specialize itself into different directions instead of being an eternal jack-of-all-trades mechanism preventing the necromancer to shine in different aspects by sacrificing the opposite aspect.

    I am actually waiting for a minion mancer type elite spec. It would be great if our golem and the zombies helped give us some sustain, but wouldnt people complain about fighting minion mancer necros because of turret thing?

    Would you favor a revamp of the death magic to be all about pets? or the hybrid its like now with pets and or some defenses?

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭

    I think it needs more Life force gain and short cd on shroud 10 seconds way too much these days and maybe an ability to sacrifice life to fill the LF bar and enter shroud ignoring the CD, maybe and elite that does that, should probably be on Reaper only cause it will break Scourge .

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Axl.8924 said:
    I am actually waiting for a minion mancer type elite spec. It would be great if our golem and the zombies helped give us some sustain, but wouldnt people complain about fighting minion mancer necros because of turret thing?

    Would you favor a revamp of the death magic to be all about pets? or the hybrid its like now with pets and or some defenses?

    Nope, like I said, the issue of death magic is that it try to see pets as a main mechanism of the necromancer. It can't, the main mechanism of the necromancer is the shroud or more accurately the use of LF as a ressource, minions are totally dissosiated from this mechanism which make awkward the fact that there is so many traits about minions.

    What an minion-mancer elite spec need to do is to make life force a source of minions. It can be like lich form used to do (entering a "shroud" giving you access to a skill that spawn a lot of jagged horror at once) or simply a toggle skill that drain your life force every X seconds to spawn a jagged horror. What's important is that the main source of minion come from the life force and whatever your build you'll always have access to this source. If a DM minor trait was changed to do this job, it would be just an unwelcomed poor powercreep with no trade off, that's why it need to be an "e-spec" making you lose the shroud for the ability to trade LF for minions.

    It would be great if our golem and the zombies helped give us some sustain, but wouldnt people complain about fighting minion mancer necros because of turret thing?

    It's already what traited minions do and it's not "great", otherwise we wouldn't talk about it. Minions are simply to weak even traited to be a real concern in PvP. A dedicated e-spec wouldn't change this fact.

    The minions and their traits design was understandable before ANet decided to introduce e-spec. It was a difficult attempt to deepen the necromancer's flavor by adding a minion-mancer dimension to an inadapted profession's design. The issue is that they kept it after introducing e-specs. It's one of the design flaw that should have been minimized when they flipped the board. And the worst part is that ANet focused the minion traits toward a passive use of minions instead of an active use.

    In my opinion, core should have a single trait associated to minions and this trait should promote the use of minions' active skills. Any trait that passively make use of minions should belong to an elite spec that trade the shroud for minions.

    Come on, right now the necromancer's focus on minion is as ridiculous as an hypothetic ranger's focus on nature spirits that would deicate 1/3 of the nature magic traitline traits to nature spirits or even worse, an elementalist focus on elementals that would dedicate 1/3 of the arcane traitline traits to make viable elementalist's glyphs of elemental. It make absolutely no sense in the current game.

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 23, 2019

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:
    I am actually waiting for a minion mancer type elite spec. It would be great if our golem and the zombies helped give us some sustain, but wouldnt people complain about fighting minion mancer necros because of turret thing?

    Would you favor a revamp of the death magic to be all about pets? or the hybrid its like now with pets and or some defenses?

    Nope, like I said, the issue of death magic is that it try to see pets as a main mechanism of the necromancer. It can't, the main mechanism of the necromancer is the shroud or more accurately the use of LF as a ressource, minions are totally dissosiated from this mechanism which make awkward the fact that there is so many traits about minions.

    What an minion-mancer elite spec need to do is to make life force a source of minions. It can be like lich form used to do (entering a "shroud" giving you access to a skill that spawn a lot of jagged horror at once) or simply a toggle skill that drain your life force every X seconds to spawn a jagged horror. What's important is that the main source of minion come from the life force and whatever your build you'll always have access to this source. If a DM minor trait was changed to do this job, it would be just an unwelcomed poor powercreep with no trade off, that's why it need to be an "e-spec" making you lose the shroud for the ability to trade LF for minions.

    It would be great if our golem and the zombies helped give us some sustain, but wouldnt people complain about fighting minion mancer necros because of turret thing?

    It's already what traited minions do and it's not "great", otherwise we wouldn't talk about it. Minions are simply to weak even traited to be a real concern in PvP. A dedicated e-spec wouldn't change this fact.

    The minions and their traits design was understandable before ANet decided to introduce e-spec. It was a difficult attempt to deepen the necromancer's flavor by adding a minion-mancer dimension to an inadapted profession's design. The issue is that they kept it after introducing e-specs. It's one of the design flaw that should have been minimized when they flipped the board. And the worst part is that ANet focused the minion traits toward a passive use of minions instead of an active use.

    In my opinion, core should have a single trait associated to minions and this trait should promote the use of minions' active skills. Any trait that passively make use of minions should belong to an elite spec that trade the shroud for minions.

    Come on, right now the necromancer's focus on minion is as ridiculous as an hypothetic ranger's focus on nature spirits that would deicate 1/3 of the nature magic traitline traits to nature spirits or even worse, an elementalist focus on elementals that would dedicate 1/3 of the arcane traitline traits to make viable elementalist's glyphs of elemental. It make absolutely no sense in the current game.

    I do think they need to probably reform how pets work maybe we can get pets attached to the next elite instead of shroud have pets or something, since i guess it would be problematic to have shroud and pets.

    I think it could be interesting to have a elite all about pets maybe we can be somewhat mobile with our pets maybe wurm can be buffed with the new elite spec to add mobility and since we no longer have shroud

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Axl.8924 said:
    I do think they need to probably reform how pets work maybe we can get pets attached to the next elite instead of shroud have pets or something, since i guess it would be problematic to have shroud and pets.

    I think it could be interesting to have a elite all about pets maybe we can be somewhat mobile with our pets maybe wurm can be buffed with the new elite spec to add mobility and since we no longer have shroud

    My way of thinking is a bit different.

    I do think that the skill type minion have to stay in core because it's a part of the necromancer's fantasy and a good selling point for newcomers. Only minions traits need to be reformed because they aren't necessary to play with minions and hinder the necromancer at it's core more than anything.

    As for mobility, I do not think that this would be really a fitting strength for a minion-master e-spec. Heavy damage transfer toward minions would be more fitting in my opinion.

  • Anchoku.8142Anchoku.8142 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I am more interested in Necro getting a more powerful anti-mobility/movement, single target melee burst build. Necro has always been a debuffing mage-type profession. Reaper and Scourge have a very high amount of AoE for power, condi, and barrier so it scales very well in a crowd if it is not focused.

    Make core Necro or a new specialization more punishing to melee and let it scale more with boons.

  • ZeftheWicked.3076ZeftheWicked.3076 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Kick in the balls.

    Oh what's with that surprise assault on necro's manhood you ask? Just hop over to Iron Marches and check this girl out:
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bria

    Then repeat to yourself "core necro was not shafted, core necro was not shafted..."

  • Anchoku.8142Anchoku.8142 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Early 2012 core Necro was cleaner and more focused

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