Raids Are Too Difficult, Create Easy Modes

[Fiery Mices.9172]

So earlier today (Saturday) I was watching this streamer, MightyTeapot, who was hosting some raid tournament. I was told in chat that it featured the best guilds in the game and they were competing in the different raids. I don't follow elitists, why go to snowcrows when you can go to metabattle and get more builds for more game modes, but I saw that the "best" guilds weren't even completing the raids.

If the top tier guilds cannot complete the raids, how does arenanet expect my guild to complete the raids. We don't have any fancy ascended gear or people who can play classes like chronomancer; we don't have two hours a day to do a full wing; nor do people always want to do the raids. I tried pugging vale guardian, but was kicked from the group because they didn't want me tanking, for whatever reason.

The main point: if top tier guilds can't finish the raids, how does arena net expect my guild to beat them? We obviously cannot, so we must make easy mode raids.

Thank you for your time!

[Lexi.1398]

1. They were doing challenge mode, which has faster and extra mechanics to normal fights.
2. They were competing for speed; they go for RISKY tactics for time saves, as is the nature of speedrunning.

Many people complete normal just fine without both of the above conditions, and CM is hard (it's -challenge- afterall) but still very much completable especially when you're not taking risks for the sake of speed.

[Yasi.9065]

Not sure if its a troll post, or for real... I lean towards troll. Since teapot repeatedly pointed out the extra difficulty in the tournament. Just listening to it for more than 15 minutes would have clued even the most clueless watcher in.Nice try.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

@"Fiery Mices.9172" said:if top tier guilds can't finish the raids,

All sorts of guilds finish raids, including music guilds, PUGs, and even a guild run by a self-described "hardcore casual".

how does arena net expect my guild to beat them?Anet only expects about 10-20% of players to participate in raids. They are designed as "challenging group content," i.e. not for everyone.

Your guild could, if they want to. There's no real need to do so unless you enjoy the challenge.

[lare.5129]

I was change my mind that raid is difficult after try complete aquatic ruin on t4 whit guild members .. May be now some points a changed, so be ready more hardcore existing raid wing upstate or etc. Also you always have a choose - DON'T GO raid at all IF for you this that is hard and you not like it. Try other content - pvp, wvw or dungeons.

[thrag.9740]

I'm probably getting trolled here, but w/e I'm fine with that being the case. However, if your not trolling then I gotta say this. If your going to make an argument for easy mode in raids, the case you laid out is a very poor argument.

The tournament you watched today has restricted rules to make it harder:
-challenge mote only (this is the equivalent of hard mode). 99% of groups you join are not doing challenge motes-9 players only. Most groups you join use 10 players-no downstate: any player who gets downed has to /gg

The videos you watched today are almost completely disconnected from what your raid experience would be.

[Hex.8714]

i agree raids should be able to be completed by spamming 1111 just like the rest of the game and open world content. I cant spam 111 while being alt tabbed and clear the content its too hard

[AlexxxDelta.1806]

They'd have to give far less valuable rewards for it to be fair. And after the initial wave of players going through the story passed, no one would run the easy version.

Raids are fine as they are. They even serve as a nice little "containment" mode.

[Katary.7096]

I can't tell if it is trolling or the Dunning–Kruger effect.

[reddie.5861]

@"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:Anet only expects about 10-20% of players to participate in raids. They are designed as "challenging group content," i.e. not for everyone.

when i read this kind of stuff + pve i kinda pee my self a little :D

[Ooops.8694]

@Fiery Mices.9172 said:We don't have any fancy ascended gear or people who can play classes like chronomancer;

You read this and seriously doubt trolling? That's actually funnier than the whole opening post...

[Antycypator.9874]

Raids are not difficult because of mechanics. They can be difficult only because of people making mistakes. And people are not ideal — they are making mistakes.

No, we don't want easier raids. We do raids, because it's pretty challenging and beating something that can be failed easily makes us feel satisfied.

[Cyninja.2954]

@"Fiery Mices.9172" said:So earlier today (Saturday) I was watching this streamer, MightyTeapot, who was hosting some raid tournament. I was told in chat that it featured the best guilds in the game and they were competing in the different raids. I don't follow elitists, why go to snowcrows when you can go to metabattle and get more builds for more game modes, but I saw that the "best" guilds weren't even completing the raids.

If the top tier guilds cannot complete the raids, how does arenanet expect my guild to complete the raids. We don't have any fancy ascended gear or people who can play classes like chronomancer; we don't have two hours a day to do a full wing; nor do people always want to do the raids. I tried pugging vale guardian, but was kicked from the group because they didn't want me tanking, for whatever reason.

The main point: if top tier guilds can't finish the raids, how does arena net expect my guild to beat them? We obviously cannot, so we must make easy mode raids.

Thank you for your time!

I'm not sure raids are a good fit for you. You failed at doing even the most basic research about an idea you are presenting.

The Elitist Raiding Party 3 event had specific ruleset to it as to make the challenge more challenging.

• Squads were made up of 9 players.
• any player who gets downed has to immediately gg and thus gets removed from fight, unlike in actual raids where getting people up from downstate is possible.
• all fights had to be done with the challenge mode activated thus making some fights significantly harder
• time is a factor, as such the participating guilds had to decide how offensive they wanted to play (like Lucky Noobs going solo healer on Dhuum CM where two healers is common for Dhuum normal mode)

The players you watched have absolutely 0 issue with raids. They even barely had issues with given those artificial restrictions.

So to conclude: you are incorrect in your assumption by simple lack of facts and understanding.

[LINKAZZATORE.8135]

@Fiery Mices.9172 said:

If the top tier guilds cannot complete the raids, how does arenanet expect my guild to complete the raids.

You straight up ignored the rules of the tournament.Every challenge mote was active and if a player went down at any moment of the run they must not be resurrected and /gg to kill themselves otherwise the team would get a time penality.

Raids aren't even close to being as difficult as shown, the rules were straight up brutal.

[Blaeys.3102]

It's worth noting that Mighty Teapot, who put the tournament together, is - himself - a vocal advocate of easy modes for raids in GW2, making the same argument that many of us have made on these forums for awhile now. They are needed to help keep the game mode alive longterm. He has made at least two videos on the subject (that make a ton of sense) and spoke about it during his "farewell" video earlier this month.

[Towelie.9504]

@"Fiery Mices.9172" said:So earlier today (Saturday) I was watching this streamer, MightyTeapot, who was hosting some raid tournament. I was told in chat that it featured the best guilds in the game and they were competing in the different raids. I don't follow elitists, why go to snowcrows when you can go to metabattle and get more builds for more game modes, but I saw that the "best" guilds weren't even completing the raids.

If the top tier guilds cannot complete the raids, how does arenanet expect my guild to complete the raids. We don't have any fancy ascended gear or people who can play classes like chronomancer; we don't have two hours a day to do a full wing; nor do people always want to do the raids. I tried pugging vale guardian, but was kicked from the group because they didn't want me tanking, for whatever reason.

The main point: if top tier guilds can't finish the raids, how does arena net expect my guild to beat them? We obviously cannot, so we must make easy mode raids.

Thank you for your time!

These are CM raids and they're self-imposing restrictions on themselves to make it harder..... They're also running comps that are way more DPS focused (e.g. way more glassy, way more easy to die) as they're trying for speed runs, not to just finish the boss. The newest Raid wing was so easy groups were able to figure out the mechanics and beat them in a day, whereas previous raid wings took quite awhile before a group could do it and figure out the proper comps, proper mechanics etc (still IMO not long enough especially for CM).

Raids are NOT difficult out of the box. If they're difficult for your guild it's either a comp issue or a lack of understanding of skill mechanics, or both. If you're taking your build from meta battle there's a good list of the proper rotations you should be trying to follow to optimize your dps, support etc. Basically... a learn to play issue if what I read from your post...

[Towelie.9504]

@"Blaeys.3102" said:It's worth noting that Mighty Teapot, who put the tournament together, is - himself - a vocal advocate of easy modes for raids in GW2, making the same argument that many of us have made on these forums for awhile now. They are needed to help keep the game mode alive longterm. He has made at least two videos on the subject (that make a ton of sense) and spoke about it during his "farewell" video earlier this month.

On the other hand he's also been extremely a vocal advocate of upping the skill level as well in certain aspects. E.g. Open World PVE/Open World Bosses are so easy it's basically just a medal showing up. You literally do not have to look at your screen to play that game mode. While some parts may need to be tuned down in some aspects just so player who aren't familiar with their skill mechanics could learn perhaps easier (though I think personally that's a poor idea), this game's PVE content apart from Raids is actually insanely easy in general which has caused some Open World PVE players to never learn how to actually play their class despite maybe having hundreds to thousands of play hours on it.

[Blaeys.3102]

@Towelie.9504 said:

@"Blaeys.3102" said:It's worth noting that Mighty Teapot, who put the tournament together, is - himself - a vocal advocate of easy modes for raids in GW2, making the same argument that many of us have made on these forums for awhile now. They are needed to help keep the game mode alive longterm. He has made at least two videos on the subject (that make a ton of sense) and spoke about it during his "farewell" video earlier this month.

On the other hand he's also been extremely a vocal advocate of upping the skill level as well in certain aspects. E.g. Open World PVE/Open World Bosses are so easy it's basically just a medal showing up. You literally do not have to look at your screen to play that game mode. While some parts may need to be tuned down in some aspects just so player who aren't familiar with their skill mechanics could learn perhaps easier (though I think personally that's a poor idea), this game's PVE content apart from Raids is actually

insanely easy in general

which has caused some Open World PVE players to never learn how to actually play their class despite maybe having hundreds to thousands of play hours on it.

Which I also very much agree with - especially when it comes to living story. The point is that raids, in their current form, are not sustainable long term. They are too easy for the hardcore players and too hard for the casual players. There is no happy medium involving a single game mode that is going to attract enough players to keep the game mode alive (I realize that is, ofc, opinion, but one a number of people share).

[zealex.9410]

@"Blaeys.3102" said:It's worth noting that Mighty Teapot, who put the tournament together, is - himself - a vocal advocate of easy modes for raids in GW2, making the same argument that many of us have made on these forums for awhile now. They are needed to help keep the game mode alive longterm. He has made at least two videos on the subject (that make a ton of sense) and spoke about it during his "farewell" video earlier this month.

Imo introducing more modes will only serve to bloat the content and make it overly complex from an outsider's prespective.

I think it would be better instead of adding modes we better cater the existing ones. Make nm easier if needs be and make cms harder.

[Obtena.7952]

@"Fiery Mices.9172" said:So earlier today (Saturday) I was watching this streamer, MightyTeapot, who was hosting some raid tournament. I was told in chat that it featured the best guilds in the game and they were competing in the different raids. I don't follow elitists, why go to snowcrows when you can go to metabattle and get more builds for more game modes, but I saw that the "best" guilds weren't even completing the raids.

If the top tier guilds cannot complete the raids, how does arenanet expect my guild to complete the raids. We don't have any fancy ascended gear or people who can play classes like chronomancer; we don't have two hours a day to do a full wing; nor do people always want to do the raids. I tried pugging vale guardian, but was kicked from the group because they didn't want me tanking, for whatever reason.

The main point: if top tier guilds can't finish the raids, how does arena net expect my guild to beat them? We obviously cannot, so we must make easy mode raids.

Thank you for your time!

I believe Anet does not intend for a group of average players to be able to complete raids. What they have done to accommodate this is have a lower threshold for success so a small number of people in the team can be carried by others who really know what to do. Some raids don't even do that unfortunately. This offends quite a number of people, both high performance and average skilled; no one really wants to carry or be carried. It's a fail strategy and Anet really missed the mark and should have take a que from almost every other game that does this kind of content; 2 levels of difficulty would have went a LONG way to serve most players in this game.

if you haven't, check out the 1000 page thread that already discusses this from almost every angle available from both people for and against it.

[Henry.5713]

Top tier guilds finish normal modes (and most CMs) with both hands tied behind their back.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Henry.5713 said:Top tier guilds finish normal modes (and most CMs) with both hands tied behind their back.Good for them. What about anyone that isn't the top 1%, though?

[zealex.9410]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Henry.5713 said:Top tier guilds finish normal modes (and most CMs) with both hands tied behind their back.Good for them. What about anyone that

isn't

the top 1%, though?

God forbid some content being targeted at competent players.

[mindcircus.1506]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Henry.5713 said:Top tier guilds finish normal modes (and most CMs) with both hands tied behind their back.Good for them. What about anyone that

isn't

the top 1%, though?

There's a ton of other content geared for the rest of us. No reason not give the hard cores something too.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Henry.5713 said:Top tier guilds finish normal modes (and most CMs) with both hands tied behind their back.Good for them. What about anyone that

isn't

the top 1%, though?

Well I'm sure while top tier guilds finish normal/CM with both their hands tied behind their back, normal guilds also finish normal/CM while actively using both hands. Do we really need to allow non-top tier guilds, or worse, the lowest of the low, to also beat normal modes and CMs with both hands behind their back?