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Imo raid cms (and fractal ones maybe) should have downstate disabled.


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Title, as a concept its not unheard of in the game, wvw has had no downstate events so the tech is there.

Ive always thought of this idea but the erp pmuch solidified it as a cool mechanic. It adds alot of tention and makes raids alot more interesting to watch.

Plus erp has shown us that its very possible for these raids to he cleared without ressing players.

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tl;dr the mechanics that make things exciting for spectators aren't the same as what makes content fun for players.

"No downstate" is fun for an even smaller subset of players than CM, which is a subset of those interested in raids, which is a subset of the overall community. Those that want it can already have it, by simply typing /gg, as people did during the ERP.

"No downstate" punishes people for experimenting and it makes it harder for people to learn. It adds a minor challenge for those who are already good at the game.

It was great during the ERP because it forced a change of strat, which put raid-selling teams on an equal (awkward) footing with the teams that were less experienced with low-tooning raids. It made the contest more fun for the observers.

However, ask the participants if they'd want "no downstate" for all raids, all the time. I don't think they'd universally agree that it would make things more fun on a week-to-week basis.

I don't really oppose the idea, because there are some pros as well as cons. I just can't imagine any reason why ANet would spend the time to plan it, let alone implement.

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@"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:tl;dr the mechanics that make things exciting for spectators aren't the same as what makes content fun for players.

"No downstate" is fun for an even smaller subset of players than CM, which is a subset of those interested in raids, which is a subset of the overall community. Those that want it can already have it, by simply typing /gg, as people did during the ERP.

"No downstate" punishes people for experimenting and it makes it harder for people to learn. It adds a minor challenge for those who are already good at the game.

It was great during the ERP because it forced a change of strat, which put raid-selling teams on an equal (awkward) footing with the teams that were less experienced with low-tooning raids. It made the contest more fun for the observers.

However, ask the participants if they'd want "no downstate" for all raids, all the time. I don't think they'd universally agree that it would make things more fun on a week-to-week basis.

I don't really oppose the idea, because there are some pros as well as cons. I just can't imagine any reason why ANet would spend the time to plan it, let alone implement.

The notion that cms havent been hard enough for being cms isnt really a new thing and i believe this could help with that. Yes not having a ress limit build experimentation on the ressing side of gw2 (like well rez on necro or that one skill on mesmer) but players are already challenged to somewhat optimise their setups when they jump in raid cms for the first time and any time afterwards should they want a fast kill.

It was actually Nike who posted during the ERP that raids should be by default no downstate (which i think for nm downstate is honestly fine) and was also retweeted by might teapot both of which are vets of the scene.

I believe cms living up to their name of being challenging outweights the possible limitation to build making that having no downstate would possibly bring.

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I think the downstate is a nice mechanic pretty unique to GW2, and a lot of raid encounters are balanced around having the downstate as a safety barrier before completely dying so that allies can resurrect you (e.g. some boss attacks/mechanics will instantly down you while other more punishing ones will kill you, bypassing the downstate by design).

Removing the downstate would be like removing an important part of combat in this game, and would make certain encounters unnecessarily challenging, even for people that are already experienced at them (e.g. Qadim 1.0 CM, as seen in the ERP).

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Agree that's it's fun to watch, not fun to play. Putting you in downstate vs killing you is a design balance lever that they already use in raid design. If they wanted mechanics to kill you, they'd simply program it to do so eg. Falling off qadim platform or taking a ride in the tornadoes. Removing a balance lever from anets already limited repertoire sounds like a bad idea.

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Apparently the participants really liked the no downstate rule so the notion that ppl wouldnt like is basically jsut assumptions at best.

I think like the encounters on release it would pose an innitial challenge for groups to overcome but overtime it would end up being a non issue. Again btw refering strictly to cms.

@Shikaru.7618 said:

Putting you in downstate vs killing you is a design balance lever that they already use in raid design. If they wanted mechanics to kill you, they'd simply program it to do so eg. Falling off qadim platform or taking a ride in the tornadoes.

You could replace this with killing you vs not killing you and the end result would be the same. Its not like downing you actually does anything, if we had extreme dps checks and enrage timers then maybe but both those aspect are very forgiving for downstate to mean anything for the encounter.

They could maybe experiment woth the idea of limited revives for downed ppl so theres some element of strategy and choice while also making it more bad player firendly than the suggested no downstate.

Tho to be completely honest they are called cm for a reason, you should go into cms knowing the base fight very well as well as maybe watching guides.

Theres also the discussion about repeatable cms and how this michanic might interact with the cms and their rewards which us also an interesting subject.

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@Vinceman.4572 said:I have no problem with that idea. Give them a CM CM where this is implemented by default. Hand out 5g per boss on a weekly basis and watch what happens...scene dies anyways due to slow release cadences of fracs & raids.

Yeah idd its ultimately the pase that decides everything. Tho i will say if cms were repeatable and harder for their intented playerbase then that would at least make the scene more engaged and optimistic.

Alot of ppl found the last 2 raid cms fairly disapointing compaired to cmw5 and alot more have complained about the lack of replaybility on the cms.

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@Sapphire.3609 said:Removing the downstate would be like removing an important part of combat in this game, and would make certain encounters unnecessarily challenging, even for people that are already experienced at them (e.g. Qadim 1.0 CM, as seen in the ERP).

Keep in mind these guilds were under a number of rules, 9 ppl, cms, no downstate, speedrun versus another guild etc. They usually go for more challenge on the content through lowmanning so for alot of them this was likely a new experience.

I think its fair to assume just like for some it was originally a new and very challenging experience trying to lowman bosses that trying to kill bosses without downstate was also a new one.

Do note also this is a very VERY diff experience from what players not competing a raid tourney with a prize of 5k $, 340k gold and 34k gems will have, simply the stress the participants were under would be enough to make the whole thing more challenging and stressful than it would prpb be for normal guilds.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@zealex.9410 said:Apparently the participants really liked the no downstate ruleYes, i'm sure adjusting content just for the level of those groups would go perfectly fine.

What makes you think that adding no downstate/making cms harder in general would be abjusting the content to the best groups in the game?

Not saying you are wrong or anything but these are ppl who have lowmanned raids for a while in cases with less than 5 ppl yet this was rather new to them as an aproach to the cms as it would be for anyone.

Is no downstate what you expect only the best guild in the world will be able to clear? How so?

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@zealex.9410 said:

@zealex.9410 said:Apparently the participants really liked the no downstate ruleYes, i'm sure adjusting content just for the level of those groups would go perfectly fine.

What makes you think that adding no downstate/making cms harder in general would be abjusting the content to the best groups in the game?

Not saying you are wrong or anything but these are ppl who have lowmanned raids for a while in cases with less than 5 ppl yet this was rather new to them as an aproach to the cms as it would be for anyone.

Is no downstate what you expect only the best guild in the world will be able to clear? How so?Well,
you
were the one that brought up assumed likes and dislikes of ERP participants as the argument, not me. As i see it, even if they really all like it as a permanent mechanic (and not just a feature of one specific tournament) - which i am not as sure of as you seem to be - it still isn't an argument, because it's not them the content needs to be balanced for.
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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@zealex.9410 said:Apparently the participants really liked the no downstate ruleYes, i'm sure adjusting content just for the level of those groups would go perfectly fine.

What makes you think that adding no downstate/making cms harder in general would be abjusting the content to the best groups in the game?

Not saying you are wrong or anything but these are ppl who have lowmanned raids for a while in cases with less than 5 ppl yet this was rather new to them as an aproach to the cms as it would be for anyone.

Is no downstate what you expect only the best guild in the world will be able to clear? How so?Well,
you
were the one that brought up assumed likes and dislikes of ERP participants as the argument, not me. As i see it, even if they really all like it as a permanent mechanic (and not just a feature of one specific tournament) - which i am not as sure of as you seem to be - it still isn't an argument, because it's not them the content needs to be balanced for.

This.

I think the enjoyment came from the increased challenge and the novelity of this approach. It would wear off incredibly fast.

Also last I checked: CMs are run 1nce and then never again by the vast majority of the already super niche raid community. Now I'm not opposed to more difficult CMs (so raid sellers can make even more gold...) but let's realize that this would have nearly no effect on the game mode or player retention. In short: there is way mroe important issues to tackle atm.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@zealex.9410 said:Apparently the participants really liked the no downstate ruleYes, i'm sure adjusting content just for the level of those groups would go perfectly fine.

What makes you think that adding no downstate/making cms harder in general would be abjusting the content to the best groups in the game?

Not saying you are wrong or anything but these are ppl who have lowmanned raids for a while in cases with less than 5 ppl yet this was rather new to them as an aproach to the cms as it would be for anyone.

Is no downstate what you expect only the best guild in the world will be able to clear? How so?Well,
you
were the one that brought up assumed likes and dislikes of ERP participants as the argument, not me. As i see it, even if they really all like it as a permanent mechanic (and not just a feature of one specific tournament) - which i am not as sure of as you seem to be - it still isn't an argument, because it's not them the content needs to be balanced for.

This.

I think the enjoyment came from the increased challenge and the novelity of this approach. It would wear off incredibly fast.

That happens to content regardless, its the innitial experience that hooks a player on not to the content they are doing.

Also last I checked: CMs are run 1nce and then never again by the vast majority of the already super niche raid community. Now I'm not opposed to more difficult CMs (so raid sellers can make even more gold...) but let's realize that this would have nearly no effect on the game mode or player retention. In short: there is way mroe important issues to tackle atm.

To an extend i agree, a more importand issue would also he making them replayable so every week players can do content that suits them a little bit better.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@zealex.9410 said:Apparently the participants really liked the no downstate ruleYes, i'm sure adjusting content just for the level of those groups would go perfectly fine.

What makes you think that adding no downstate/making cms harder in general would be abjusting the content to the best groups in the game?

Not saying you are wrong or anything but these are ppl who have lowmanned raids for a while in cases with less than 5 ppl yet this was rather new to them as an aproach to the cms as it would be for anyone.

Is no downstate what you expect only the best guild in the world will be able to clear? How so?Well,
you
were the one that brought up assumed likes and dislikes of ERP participants as the argument, not me. As i see it, even if they really all like it as a permanent mechanic (and not just a feature of one specific tournament) - which i am not as sure of as you seem to be - it still isn't an argument, because it's not them the content needs to be balanced for.

I mean, teapot said so that in talks he had with participants that they enjoyed it.

But again, i dont think putting a no downstate would be considered balancing around them, yes it would make cms harder but thats been a general complain, to cater to the top of the top cms would likely need to be far harder than that.

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@zealex.9410 said:

@zealex.9410 said:Apparently the participants really liked the no downstate ruleYes, i'm sure adjusting content just for the level of those groups would go perfectly fine.

What makes you think that adding no downstate/making cms harder in general would be abjusting the content to the best groups in the game?

Not saying you are wrong or anything but these are ppl who have lowmanned raids for a while in cases with less than 5 ppl yet this was rather new to them as an aproach to the cms as it would be for anyone.

Is no downstate what you expect only the best guild in the world will be able to clear? How so?Well,
you
were the one that brought up assumed likes and dislikes of ERP participants as the argument, not me. As i see it, even if they really all like it as a permanent mechanic (and not just a feature of one specific tournament) - which i am not as sure of as you seem to be - it still isn't an argument, because it's not them the content needs to be balanced for.

This.

I think the enjoyment came from the increased challenge and the novelity of this approach. It would wear off incredibly fast.

That happens to content regardless, its the innitial experience that hooks a player on not to the content they are doing.

CMs are no where near the initial experience for raids, so again a moot point. They are also the least done content even among the niche content. Right now, releasing more raid wings without CMs would be more beneficial to the game mode than doctoring around on existing CMs. Not to mention making CMs ever more elite.

@zealex.9410 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Also last I checked: CMs are run 1nce and then never again by the vast majority of the already super niche raid community. Now I'm not opposed to more difficult CMs (so raid sellers can make even more gold...) but let's realize that this would have nearly no effect on the game mode or player retention. In short: there is way mroe important issues to tackle atm.

To an extend i agree, a more importand issue would also he making them replayable so every week players can do content that suits them a little bit better.

Making them replayable would be the currently only important issue as far as CMs are concerned, everything else is absolutely not important.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@zealex.9410 said:Apparently the participants really liked the no downstate ruleYes, i'm sure adjusting content just for the level of those groups would go perfectly fine.

What makes you think that adding no downstate/making cms harder in general would be abjusting the content to the best groups in the game?

Not saying you are wrong or anything but these are ppl who have lowmanned raids for a while in cases with less than 5 ppl yet this was rather new to them as an aproach to the cms as it would be for anyone.

Is no downstate what you expect only the best guild in the world will be able to clear? How so?Well,
you
were the one that brought up assumed likes and dislikes of ERP participants as the argument, not me. As i see it, even if they really all like it as a permanent mechanic (and not just a feature of one specific tournament) - which i am not as sure of as you seem to be - it still isn't an argument, because it's not them the content needs to be balanced for.

This.

I think the enjoyment came from the increased challenge and the novelity of this approach. It would wear off incredibly fast.

That happens to content regardless, its the innitial experience that hooks a player on not to the content they are doing.

CMs are no where near the initial experience for raids, so again a moot point.

The innitial cm experience.

They are also the least done content even among the niche content.

They are also the least replayable.

Right now, releasing more raid wings without CMs would be more beneficial to the game mode than doctoring around on existing CMs. Not to mention making CMs even more elite.

I dont expect them to over go back and update old content, like they didnt go bacj to add cms to w1-w3. The goal is for players to see the content which dificulty doesnt necessarily matter just that its experience and hopefully replayed by a portion of the community.

Aspirational content is good for the game, new ppl looking into gw2 will see pvp montages, wvw skirmishes and engame pve content, Abandoning the cms in order to get out normal raids and making said raids even easier on top of that will take away said aspirational goals for ppl. If a raid will take only 2 or 3 wipes to beat with nothing else to look forward to what should players do?

Imo ff14 has realised that you can make one dificulty to please everyone as well as that many dificulties will only bloat each update unecessarily. Moving from one dificulty to the other is important but not important enough to compromise the experience of either group. Floor needs to be lower and the ceiling higher when it comes to the 2 dificulty modes for raids.

@Cyninja.2954 said:Also last I checked: CMs are run 1nce and then never again by the vast majority of the already super niche raid community. Now I'm not opposed to more difficult CMs (so raid sellers can make even more gold...) but let's realize that this would have nearly no effect on the game mode or player retention. In short: there is way mroe important issues to tackle atm.

To an extend i agree, a more importand issue would also he making them replayable so every week players can do content that suits them a little bit better.

Making them replayable would be the currently only important issue as far as CMs are concerned, everything else is absolutely not important.

I think its importand for cms to rovide the necessary challenge, outside of replayability imo thats another big issue with them.

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@zealex.9410 said:

@zealex.9410 said:Apparently the participants really liked the no downstate ruleYes, i'm sure adjusting content just for the level of those groups would go perfectly fine.

What makes you think that adding no downstate/making cms harder in general would be abjusting the content to the best groups in the game?

Not saying you are wrong or anything but these are ppl who have lowmanned raids for a while in cases with less than 5 ppl yet this was rather new to them as an aproach to the cms as it would be for anyone.

Is no downstate what you expect only the best guild in the world will be able to clear? How so?Well,
you
were the one that brought up assumed likes and dislikes of ERP participants as the argument, not me. As i see it, even if they really all like it as a permanent mechanic (and not just a feature of one specific tournament) - which i am not as sure of as you seem to be - it still isn't an argument, because it's not them the content needs to be balanced for.

This.

I think the enjoyment came from the increased challenge and the novelity of this approach. It would wear off incredibly fast.

That happens to content regardless, its the innitial experience that hooks a player on not to the content they are doing.

CMs are no where near the initial experience for raids, so again a moot point.

The innitial cm experience.

Which according to sell guilds is purchased close to 40-60% of all players who have the achievements (estimating that close to 2/3 of all people having DHuum CM have bought it).

People who do CMs are already avid raider. It's not content which needs attention right now.

@zealex.9410 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:They are also the least done content even among the niche content.

They are also the least replayable.

Which is the only issue with CMs.

@zealex.9410 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Right now, releasing more raid wings without CMs would be more beneficial to the game mode than doctoring around on existing CMs. Not to mention making CMs even more elite.

I dont expect them to over go back and update old content, like they didnt go bacj to add cms to w1-w3. The goal is for players to see the content which dificulty doesnt necessarily matter just that its experience and hopefully replayed by a portion of the community.

Aspirational content is good for the game, new ppl looking into gw2 will see pvp montages, wvw skirmishes and engame pve content, Abandoning the cms in order to get out normal raids and making said raids even easier on top of that will take away said aspirational goals for ppl. If a raid will take only 2 or 3 wipes to beat with nothing else to look forward to what should players do?

Imo ff14 has realised that you can make one dificulty to please everyone as well as that many dificulties will only bloat each update unecessarily. Moving from one dificulty to the other is important but not important enough to compromise the experience of either group. Floor needs to be lower and the ceiling higher when it comes to the 2 dificulty modes for raids.

So let's remove CMs in future raids and make more normal raids. Isn't that what I said?

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@zealex.9410 said:kitten, typo i meant can't make one dificulty.

May I ask if Raids in FFXIV are an integral part of the story, the leveling and the gearing process or a completely optional activity?

I recently just started playing it, finished base game (ARR) yesterday. From what i encountered, there are:

  • dungeons (4 man)
  • trials (8 man boss/raid?)
  • alliance raids (3 x 8 man aka 24 man raids)

You encounter the dungeons and trials as parts of the main story, the alliance raids which i did were a part of a side story. Harder/hardest difficulties are optional i belive. Sooo, no, not realy optional.Edit: Game does an amazing job actualy teaching you how to play, unlike here >.>

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