Why do I do this?

[Steve The Cynic.3217]

@Ashantara.8731 said:

@"EmmetOtter.8542" said:And stop playing Gw2 and any other games you buy stuff like this until can approach it responsibly.

Gambling cannot be "approached responsibly."

It can, but it requires the person approaching it to take personal responsibility for what he or she does.

The approach is to say, "Here is my limit. I will not go past that limit." If you go into a casino, you take X amount of money(1), you exchange it for chips, and you gamble those chips until you run out. Then you watch other people gamble or you go home. There are variations on this, concerning where your winnings go. One version says, "I have one pocket for my stake, and one for my winnings, and I cannot gamble what's in the winnings pocket." The other says, "I have one pocket that contains my stake, and I put the winnings in there." But in both cases, once the "stake" pocket is empty, you stop.(3)

(1) X is selected on a very, very simple basis. If you can afford to take that X amount of money, toss it on the floor and walk away,(2) then X is not too big. If doing that would mean that you can't pay rent, buy food, etc., then X is too big.

(2) That's essentially what you do when you go into a casino, except it isn't "on the floor".

(3) The late Mrs Cynic preferred the two-pocket approach to be able to take something home, while I prefer the one-pocket approach because I'm there for the entertainment value of being in a casino, and the one-pocket approach lets you do that for longer.

For MMORPG loot boxes, the rule is similar. X is your limit (per week, per month, whatever), and it is selected on the same basis as above. Create a budget for all your expenditures for the month. Spreadsheets are good for this. Add line items for rent/mortgage; loan repayments; insurance; food shopping; electricity, gas, telephone, and Internet bills; haircuts; exceptional spending like replacing worn-out clothes; fuel for your car or motorbike / monthly public transport passes; and everything else you must spend each month. (That"s everything, not anything. Omit nothing.) Add separate line items for savings, a bit for e.g. cinema tickets, meals out, and so on. Add line items in a different column for what you earn.

X must not exceed what's left over, and should be significantly less, so that you have some flexibility in case of emergencies.

[Dayra.7405]

Learn a bit about probability Theorie and compute how much money you need to spend to get this item with 95% certainty.

Also make sure you really understood that this amount is always the amount you still have to spend and anything you spend in the past does not help you at all.

That either cures you or it shows you that you can afford this gambling.

[yann.1946]

@Traveller.7496 said:This is the reason why people oppose lootboxes. It's a totally different thing when you can just buy the item you want instead of buying into random chance. Yet there still are people defending ANet for doing it because they need revenue, which is sickening seeing how much harm it causes.

Here's to hoping more legislation moves to ban lootboxes in the future too.

This is such a simplification of the problem though. You don't only judge a problem in what the worst outcome could be.Otherwise we should ban mmo's.

And while yes gambling addiction is a problem.Removing the gambling things from the game is not nessecarily the best solution and has bigger implications then most people realise.

[DonArkanio.6419]

As someone who has multiple BLC skins I can say that once I got them, they start to feel cheap.

Don't ask yourself whether you need it or not - you know you feel like you need it.

Just let that skin go. It's not rare, not worth the price, it doesn't hold any value except being a random drop.Just think - Will you change that skin for something else on the next Transmutation? Probably yes.

Or, think a out a goal you have IRL. Maybe you have a hobby? Think about what you can get with money you would otherwise spend on Gems.

[DonArkanio.6419]

@yann.1946 said:

@Traveller.7496 said:This is the reason why people oppose lootboxes. It's a totally different thing when you can just buy the item you want instead of buying into random chance. Yet there still are people defending ANet for doing it because they need revenue, which is sickening seeing how much harm it causes.

Here's to hoping more legislation moves to ban lootboxes in the future too.

This is such a simplification of the problem though. You don't only judge a problem in what the worst outcome could be.Otherwise we should ban mmo's.

And while yes gambling addiction is a problem.Removing the gambling things from the game is not nessecarily the best solution and has bigger implications then most people realise.

Removing gambling from the game decreases the change that someone is caught up in gambling. Simple as that. We can't argue here.The way GW2 is monetized just screams for gambling and I unfortunately expect no change from ANet.

I am 100% sure there are a lot more people that feel very guilty after buying Gems. It's just the way ANet designed that system.Because in the end, skins are just skins.

[SirYoker.6804]

I waste for tail gang 2x15 and bl keys 2x25 maybe 3x xD and two 10e gems.And what i get? Nothing :D but what these money i got from half of my week work so screew it.But i no more buy gems until i see more content.

[Helen.3746]

Sounds like you might need a bit more than forum advice. Have you tried Gambler's Anonymous?

[yann.1946]

@DonArkanio.6419 said:

@yann.1946 said:

@Traveller.7496 said:This is the reason why people oppose lootboxes. It's a totally different thing when you can just buy the item you want instead of buying into random chance. Yet there still are people defending ANet for doing it because they need revenue, which is sickening seeing how much harm it causes.

Here's to hoping more legislation moves to ban lootboxes in the future too.

This is such a simplification of the problem though. You don't only judge a problem in what the worst outcome could be.Otherwise we should ban mmo's.

And while yes gambling addiction is a problem.Removing the gambling things from the game is not nessecarily the best solution and has bigger implications then most people realise.

Removing gambling from the game decreases the change that someone is caught up in gambling. Simple as that. We can't argue here.

Actually we can.First : not all gambling is bad for a person. So even if I give you you're premise that gambling would decrease. It might increase problametic gambling behavior(more people going to casinos and losing actual money instead of in game hold for example).

Secondly : their is a good chance that people who are easily addicted will find another place to get a gambling addiction / or just gamble.

The way GW2 is monetized just screams for gambling and I unfortunately expect no change from ANet.

I am 100% sure there are a lot more people that feel very guilty after buying Gems. It's just the way ANet designed that system.Because in the end, skins are just skins.

Value of an item is always variable over time. This also applies for non rng items. And their will always be people who regret their purchase.

In my opinion, the best way to solve the gambling problem is beter education or a gambling license of some sort.

Ofcourse this falls out of the scope of what a videogame can do.

[DonArkanio.6419]

@yann.1946 said:

@DonArkanio.6419 said:

@yann.1946 said:

@Traveller.7496 said:This is the reason why people oppose lootboxes. It's a totally different thing when you can just buy the item you want instead of buying into random chance. Yet there still are people defending ANet for doing it because they need revenue, which is sickening seeing how much harm it causes.

Here's to hoping more legislation moves to ban lootboxes in the future too.

This is such a simplification of the problem though. You don't only judge a problem in what the worst outcome could be.Otherwise we should ban mmo's.

And while yes gambling addiction is a problem.Removing the gambling things from the game is not nessecarily the best solution and has bigger implications then most people realise.

Removing gambling from the game decreases the change that someone is caught up in gambling. Simple as that. We can't argue here.

Actually we can.First : not all gambling is bad for a person. So even if I give you you're premise that gambling would decrease. It might increase problametic gambling behavior(more people going to casinos and losing actual money instead of in game hold for example).

Secondly : their is a good chance that people who are easily addicted will find another place to get a gambling addiction / or just gamble.

The way GW2 is monetized just screams for gambling and I unfortunately expect no change from ANet.

I am 100% sure there are a lot more people that feel very guilty after buying Gems. It's just the way ANet designed that system.Because in the end, skins are just skins.

Value of an item is always variable over time. This also applies for non rng items. And their will always be people who regret their purchase.

In my opinion, the best way to solve the gambling problem is beter education or a gambling license of some sort.

Ofcourse this falls out of the scope of what a videogame can do.

But the guy just said he is losing real money on those skins.Gambling isn't a good system in any game.

Anything that should be gamblable is your time and rare drops. But GW2 invalidadtes that due to almost everything being purchasable.

[Traveller.7496]

@yann.1946 said:

And while yes gambling addiction is a problem.Removing the gambling things from the game is not nessecarily the best solution and has bigger implications then most people realise.

You are pretty much proving my point here. Because people with gambling addiction might get their fix somewhere else, there is no point trying to fix the problem in GW2. Out of sight, out of mind, certainly for ANet. What negative implications would removing the RNG items (and selling them in the store directly) have for the players, pray tell?

Many people have suggested that outright selling the desirable items in the gemstore would wield ANet a lot of revenue, but their data must suggest that the Black Lion keys still bring more because they refuse to alter that premise.

[Etria.3642]

They will always put the skin in a later statuette. Therefore if what you want is only the watchwork set then once you hit 60 statuettes, stop. You've earned your item.

Just tell yourself it's time gated like everything else in the game.

[yann.1946]

@DonArkanio.6419 said:

@yann.1946 said:

@DonArkanio.6419 said:

@yann.1946 said:

@Traveller.7496 said:This is the reason why people oppose lootboxes. It's a totally different thing when you can just buy the item you want instead of buying into random chance. Yet there still are people defending ANet for doing it because they need revenue, which is sickening seeing how much harm it causes.

Here's to hoping more legislation moves to ban lootboxes in the future too.

This is such a simplification of the problem though. You don't only judge a problem in what the worst outcome could be.Otherwise we should ban mmo's.

And while yes gambling addiction is a problem.Removing the gambling things from the game is not nessecarily the best solution and has bigger implications then most people realise.

Removing gambling from the game decreases the change that someone is caught up in gambling. Simple as that. We can't argue here.

Actually we can.First : not all gambling is bad for a person. So even if I give you you're premise that gambling would decrease. It might increase problametic gambling behavior(more people going to casinos and losing actual money instead of in game hold for example).

Secondly : their is a good chance that people who are easily addicted will find another place to get a gambling addiction / or just gamble.

The way GW2 is monetized just screams for gambling and I unfortunately expect no change from ANet.

I am 100% sure there are a lot more people that feel very guilty after buying Gems. It's just the way ANet designed that system.Because in the end, skins are just skins.

Value of an item is always variable over time. This also applies for non rng items. And their will always be people who regret their purchase.

In my opinion, the best way to solve the gambling problem is beter education or a gambling license of some sort.

Ofcourse this falls out of the scope of what a videogame can do.

But the guy just said he

is

losing real money on those skins.Gambling isn't a good system in any game.

Anything that should be gamblable is your time and rare drops. But GW2 invalidadtes that due to almost everything being purchasable.

Do you have reason to suggest the the op would have gambled less money if BLTC where not in the game? Have you considered the possibility that he would be hooked on another gambling activity?

[yann.1946]

@Traveller.7496 said:

@yann.1946 said:

And while yes gambling addiction is a problem.Removing the gambling things from the game is not nessecarily the best solution and has bigger implications then most people realise.

You are pretty much proving my point here. Because people with gambling addiction might get their fix somewhere else, there is no point trying to fix the problem in GW2. Out of sight, out of mind, certainly for ANet. What negative implications would removing the RNG items (and selling them in the store directly) have for the players, pray tell?

In my opinion it is you who acts with the out of sight, out of mind mentality.

As long as they don't gamble in gw2/ videogame its okay for you?

To give a good example why deleting it from all video games is a bad idea we only need to look at the prohibition.

Personally I don't drink and consider alcohol a much greater problem. As drunk driving kills lots of people.But I wouldn't suggest the removal of alcohol.

Now I am not against regulations. But I am against the idea of just removing them from video games.

As I said earlier, their are much better solutions to decrease the amount of addictive personalities.

[ProtoGunner.4953]

@asterix.9614 said:So basically I try to get the new rng item from the black lion chest nearly all the time. I need to completely stop doing this, how do I stop myself? Just wasted £70 and 200 gold buying black lion keys to try to get the watchwork wings and I ended up with a kitten ton of kitten and 1 shifting sand staff and NO watchwork wings. I have spent hundred of pounds doing this before for other rng items that I don't even end up using :s Anyway help me please! How do you stop yourself?

That's the reason why many countries are trying to stop this madness. You are clearly someone with a gambling problem.

[Redavv.2643]

Almost every new gem cosmetic item which is bind to Lion keys sooner or later will show up in the gemstore to buy wait until then so you can spend your money to buy a specific item and not gamble :DSpend your money for quality of life items that are more useful and you know what you are getting. like permanent tools etc

Also if you want keys do the weekly key farm :D

[asterix.9614]

@ProtoGunner.4953 said:That's the reason that many countries are trying to stop this madness. You are clearly someone with a gambling problem.

Oh dear, outside of blc I am not a gambler by any means, yes I did buy crypto currencies in 2017 (very late but still) and made a tidy enough return to afford a deposit for a house at the age of 23 years old. The area where I live in the South east of england has property prices that increase every year by a lot (40 odd minutes to get to London). However I do get why you would assume I am a gambler, so fair play :)

Thank you to everyone who adviced me, I think I will have to rethink whether a skin is worth it (most of the time it is never worth it as I just collect for collecting sake). Thank you especially to Danikat, Steve the Cynic and Yann, I think the advice from you 3 will stop me from just spending money blindly on rng items.

[nomak.8693]

Tough luck :/ I got my wings from the free key.

[kratan.4619]

An individuals gambling issues are not the problem of the company. People like to throw out the words "predatory practices" a lot like any other form of legal gambling is not the same. If an individual needs to get help there are places they can go to receive it, but the people on the forums are not going to be any help.I love the loot boxes and buy keys on the reg and would absolutely hate to see them removed from the game.

[Derdzvero.7051]

Rule number 1 with online games: if a game is advertised as "free to play", the chances are developers don't want to sell it for 50-75€ (as most of all other games nowadays), but to get hundreds of Euros from many. Even thousands.There's no free lunch in this world (apart from cheese in mouse's trap) so those should be banned by law on spot for dirty business practices. No exceptions.Rule number 2: there is no online game, that provides value for such amounts of real life money, regardless how high someone's income is.

[TheGrimm.5624]

@"Traveller.7496" said:This is the reason why people oppose lootboxes. It's a totally different thing when you can just buy the item you want instead of buying into random chance. Yet there still are people defending ANet for doing it because they need revenue, which is sickening seeing how much harm it causes.

Here's to hoping more legislation moves to ban lootboxes in the future too.

A law doesn't not solve an addictive nature, move that funding to medical advancement and/or social programs else plan on removing all buying and selling of goods because every product you deal with is trying to addict you to buy more. Going back to a previous example, Disney everyday is trying/and succeeding to addict your children to their brand and needing more. It's also been proven that addictive natures will just move to another object once the current focus is removed. You need to help the people that are impacted. Let say you removed the chests and ANet made the item tied to a random chance after doing a jumping puzzle. The addiction to getting the item would still be there. All MMOs hook and lure players whenever there is a chance at RNG, that's what keeps bringing people to doing the same thing over and over. Farms are nothing more than drawing on people's lotto odds, "this could be the time", though they still just have a .000000000001 chance of getting the item like last time.Adding a law to say remove 'x' item still didn't help the person with the problem, you now just hide it that they just spent 1000 hours trying at a random odds widget that they felt they needed. You need to help the people. Gambling is a thing but all RNG is a form of gambling so unless you address the people they are still addicted and will find a new focus.

[kharmin.7683]

@Derdzvero.7051 said:There's no free lunch in this world (apart from cheese in mouse's trap)I think that the dead mouse would disagree with you.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

@yann.1946 said:

As long as they don't gamble in gw2/ videogame its okay for you?

To give a good example why deleting it from all video games is a bad idea we only need to look at the prohibition.

Personally I don't drink and consider alcohol a much greater problem. As drunk driving kills lots of people.But I wouldn't suggest the removal of alcohol.

Now I am not against regulations. But I am against the idea of just removing them from video games.

The truth is that the American alcohol Prohibition didn't work. All government-imposed bans on vices don't really work if you view the goal of those prohibitions as stopping people from getting what they want. Sure, if someone wants to gamble, removing gambling with real money from video games will just move them to some other gambling platform.

The real debate is whether removing gamble boxes from video games is a good move in itself. You seem to believe not. I tend to believe so.

Why do I come down on the other side from you?

What could happen were gamble keys to be prohibited?

• Regulating video game gambling by minors would be problematic due to the anonymity of the internet. Effective methods to do so would probably result in buying gamble keys being a much more intrusive experience, reducing QoL for adult users. Removing the option to gamble with rl money would affect minor gambling because minors do not have the same access to other gambling venues as adults do. So, there would likely be a net positive effect on minor gambling if it were removed from games.
• VG companies would be unable to resort to duplicity to get people to overspend on items. This would be a net positive result for any consumer who wants items to have a fair price instead of the price appearing to be less than it's most likely to end up being.
• Players who like the thrill of gamble box opening would have to resort to other practices for that thrill.
• If a game's financial health is dependent on gamble key revenue to survive, VG companies would need to come up with other means to fund the games. This could have a positive effect for some players and a negative effect for others. One positive effect? Those who overspend could see a more equitable distribution of costs across more players. One negative effect? Those who don't spend could see a more equitable distribution of costs across more players -- in their case, this could mean them.
• In extreme cases, games might fail due to lack of revenue. Whether this would happen to GW2 would depend on just how much revenue keys produce, and how well other revenue-producing plans to replace them would work.
• There is also the possibility, however remote, that games might become better overall if game design were to become less heavily weighted towards bilking players of money. This is where most of my opposition to gamble keys resides. Call me an unrealistic optimist if you wish, but I believe the current trend in VG's -- that of producing a bare minimum game-play experience coupled with a maximized approach to bilking players of money -- is not a healthy climate for consumers. Gamble keys are a big part of that bilking, even though it doesn't affect the whole gaming population.

Doubtless, there would be other ramifications. The bottom line is, though, that there is likely to be neither a cut-and-dried positive outcome nor a cut-and-dried negative outcome were gamble keys to be removed from VG's (or just from GW2). Since I find the current state of VG's to be far from ideal, I would be willing to chance a change because the worst that would happen for me is I would stop playing altogether, while the best is that games in general could become better.

[yann.1946]

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:

@yann.1946 said:

As long as they don't gamble in gw2/ videogame its okay for you?

To give a good example why deleting it from all video games is a bad idea we only need to look at the prohibition.

Personally I don't drink and consider alcohol a much greater problem. As drunk driving kills lots of people.But I wouldn't suggest the removal of alcohol.

Now I am not against regulations. But I am against the idea of just removing them from video games.

The truth is that the American alcohol Prohibition didn't work. All government-imposed bans on vices don't really work if you view the goal of those prohibitions as stopping people from getting what they want. Sure, if someone wants to gamble, removing gambling with real money from video games will just move them to some other gambling platform.

The real debate is whether removing gamble boxes from video games is a good move in itself. You seem to believe not. I tend to believe so.

Why do I come down on the other side from you?

What could happen were gamble keys to be prohibited?

• Regulating video game gambling by minors would be problematic due to the anonymity of the internet.
  Effective
  methods to do so would probably result in buying gamble keys being a much more intrusive experience, reducing QoL for adult users. Removing the option to gamble with rl money would affect minor gambling because minors do not have the same access to other gambling venues as adults do. So, there would likely be a net positive effect on minor gambling if it were removed from games.
• VG companies would be unable to resort to duplicity to get people to overspend on items. This would be a net positive result for any consumer who wants items to have a fair price instead of the price appearing to be less than it's most likely to end up being.
• Players who like the thrill of gamble box opening would have to resort to other practices for that thrill.
• If a game's financial health is dependent on gamble key revenue to survive, VG companies would need to come up with other means to fund the games. This could have a positive effect for some players and a negative effect for others. One positive effect? Those who overspend could see a more equitable distribution of costs across more players. One negative effect? Those who don't spend could see a more equitable distribution of costs across more players -- in their case, this could mean them.
• In extreme cases, games might fail due to lack of revenue. Whether this would happen to GW2 would depend on just how much revenue keys produce, and how well other revenue-producing plans to replace them would work.
• There is also the possibility, however remote, that games might become better overall if game design were to become less heavily weighted towards bilking players of money. This is where most of my opposition to gamble keys resides. Call me an unrealistic optimist if you wish, but I believe the current trend in VG's -- that of producing a bare minimum game-play experience coupled with a maximized approach to bilking players of money -- is not a healthy climate for consumers. Gamble keys are a big part of that bilking, even though it doesn't affect the whole gaming population.

Doubtless, there would be other ramifications. The bottom line is, though, that there is likely to be neither a cut-and-dried positive outcome nor a cut-and-dried negative outcome were gamble keys to be removed from VG's (or just from GW2). Since I find the current state of VG's to be far from ideal, I would be willing to chance a change because the worst that would happen for me is I would stop playing altogether, while the best is that games in general could become better.

For me the mayor problems are that people use the we need to help all the addicts argument while just removing them wouldn't really help them.

And i actually care about gambling addictions, and the videogame debate retracts from more real life solution.

Now i agree that their schould be some age restrictions. But we should make sure that the rules are clear and their is no special pleading going on. For example why are Mtg card packs not regulated , but videogame lootboxes are?

[Steve The Cynic.3217]

@asterix.9614 said:Thank you to everyone who adviced me, I think I will have to rethink whether a skin is worth it (most of the time it is never worth it as I just collect for collecting sake). Thank you especially to Danikat, Steve the Cynic and Yann, I think the advice from you 3 will stop me from just spending money blindly on rng items.

Glad I could be of some help. I wish you all the best with this battle, but it looks like you have take the essential first steps: recognising that you have a problem and that resolving the problem requires help from other people, and coming here to seek out that help.

[VanWilder.6923]

@asterix.9614 said:watchwork wings

I got the Watchwork glider+backpack skin today, 1st try from the free key and I do not even care about cosmetic nor fashion. I asked my friend how rare is it with your thread, I still do not give a kitten concern about it. Cosmetic and fashion is never a thing to me. So maybe you should think like me will help