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Imo raid cms (and fractal ones maybe) should have downstate disabled.


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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@zealex.9410 said:kitten, typo i meant can't make one dificulty.

May I ask if Raids in FFXIV are an integral part of the story, the leveling and the gearing process or a completely optional activity?

The game has a gear threadmill but its diff from wow, catch up is very fast and easy and you can reach bis gear very fast.

The gear from what i understand isnt necessary from the raids to be relevant to the story. Raids specifically are strictly endgame content and dont really play any part during leveling.

They do have trials and all the big moments in story are usually trials which are 1 boss encounters with 8 ppl, they have normal and extreme versions.

You can very comfortably experience it all tho the normal encounters are very easy.

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@Glider.5792 said:

@zealex.9410 said:kitten, typo i meant can't make one dificulty.

May I ask if Raids in FFXIV are an integral part of the story, the leveling and the gearing process or a completely optional activity?

I recently just started playing it, finished base game (ARR) yesterday. From what i encountered, there are:
  • dungeons (4 man)
  • trials (8 man boss/raid?)
  • alliance raids (3 x 8 man aka 24 man raids)

You encounter the dungeons and trials as parts of the main story, the alliance raids which i did were a part of a side story. Harder/hardest difficulties are optional i belive. Sooo, no, not realy optional.

Trials and raids are diff and raids themselves split into multiple diff kinds of raids. Theres the 8 man raids and the 24man raids and i beliee both have 4 bosses per wing.

The game tho embraces the multiplayer aspect of mmos and throws easy group content at you during your leveling process.

Edit: Game does an amazing job actualy teaching you how to play, unlike here >.>

This too, solid leveling experience.

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@zealex.9410 said:

@zealex.9410 said:kitten, typo i meant can't make one dificulty.

May I ask if Raids in FFXIV are an integral part of the story, the leveling and the gearing process or a completely optional activity?

The game has a gear threadmill but its diff from wow, catch up is very fast and easy and you can reach bis gear very fast.

Unless you are refering to WoW Classic, catching up in WoW isn't hard and hasn't been hard for a long time. It's also not relevant of how easy or hard gear progression is. There either is some, or there isn't. If there is, the entire gearing and reward system is different from having no gear progression.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@zealex.9410 said:kitten, typo i meant can't make one dificulty.

May I ask if Raids in FFXIV are an integral part of the story, the leveling and the gearing process or a completely optional activity?In a way, they are both.They are not part of the main storyline - more of the side stories, although at least some of them are quite important for their lore (for example the alliance raid for A Realm Reborn - the Crystal Tower - is something Square highly encouraged players to do before the last expac, as it contains quite a number of lore tidbits important for parts of the Shadowbringers storyline).

The storyline does include trials (basically, single boss fights) and they are usually very important parts of the story. That's the normal version however, the extremes are optional. There are also trials (both normal and extremes) that are fully optional and not tied directly to main story.

As far as the gearing goes, each raid introduces new gear tier that is slightly better than the previous one, but they are not the only source of new gear, and that gear is eventually going to be replaced by something you can buy with currency obtained by doing normal instanced content.

For example, as of now:Ilevel 430 armor and weapon - level 80 class gear, that you can access just by having a level 80 character and completing the base shadowbringers story (well, actually you get it a few steps before the final step of the expac story)ilevel 430 trinkets - drop from level 80 dungeonsilevel 440 gear - bought for tomestones of goetia, currency you receive from doing duty roulettes as a level 80 characterilevel 450 weapons and trinkets - obtained from expert versions of level 80 trials (weapons from one trial, trinkets from another)ilevel 450 armor and trinkets - obtained from normal version of the first wing of level 80 8-man raid (Eden). The amount of gear tokens you can get from that wing is capped (one token per boss per week, so 4 tokens in total. gear costs, depending on slot, from 1 to 4 tokens per piece). Additionally from the last boss of the wing you get one token (per week) for a ilevel 460 weapon (you need 7 to buy the weapon)ilevel 450 gear - obtained from craftingilevel 460 gear - bought for tomestones of phantasmagoria. Similar to goetia, currency you get from doing some duty roulettes as a level 80 character. Unlike with goetia, the amount you can get each week is capped. Notice, that the weapon requires not only tomestones, but also 7 tokens from the raid i mentioned before.That gear can be augmented to ilevel 470, using tokens obtained from savage version of Eden raid.ilevel 470 armor and trinkets (different that the augmented gear mentioned above) - obtained from the savage version of the Eden raid (again, the amount of drops is capped weekly)Notice, that there's a first wing of an level 80 alliance (24-man) raid incoming, that both normal and alliance raids are going to have 3 wings each (each with better gear), and there will be one more tier of tomestone currency you will be obtaining from duty roulettes, and that all the weekly caps on tomestones and drops are going to eventually be removed. Additionally, as soon as the next expac hits, you will be able to buy the best gear for tomestones of poetics (the levelling gear currency, one you start obtaining from duty roulettes as soon as you hit level 50)

As you can see, raids are important part of the gearing process if you insist on always having the best gear, but they become far less so if you're not in a hurry.

For example, i don't play savages and thus don't have gear from them, but i don't feel like i am losing out by that.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@zealex.9410 said:kitten, typo i meant can't make one dificulty.

May I ask if Raids in FFXIV are an integral part of the story, the leveling and the gearing process or a completely optional activity?In a way, they are both.They are not part of the main storyline - more of the side stories, although at least some of them are quite important for their lore (for example the alliance raid for A Realm Reborn - the Crystal Tower - is something Square highly encouraged players to do before the last expac, as it contains quite a number of lore tidbits important for parts of the Shadowbringers storyline).

The storyline does include trials (basically, single boss fights) and they are usually very important parts of the story. That's the normal version however, the extremes are optional. There are also trials (both normal and extremes) that are fully optional and not tied directly to main story.

As far as the gearing goes, each raid introduces new gear tier that is slightly better than the previous one, but they are not the only source of new gear, and that gear is eventually going to be replaced by something you can buy with currency obtained by doing normal instanced content.

For example, as of now:Ilevel 430 armor and weapon - level 80 class gear, that you can access just by having a level 80 character and completing the base shadowbringers story (well, actually you get it a few steps before the final step of the expac story)ilevel 430 trinkets - drop from level 80 dungeonsilevel 440 gear - bought for tomestones of goetia, currency you receive from doing duty roulettes as a level 80 characterilevel 450 weapons and trinkets - obtained from expert versions of level 80 trials (weapons from one trial, trinkets from another)ilevel 450 armor and trinkets - obtained from normal version of the first wing of level 80 8-man raid (Eden). The amount of gear tokens you can get from that wing is capped (one token per boss per week, so 4 tokens in total. gear costs, depending on slot, from 1 to 4 tokens per piece). Additionally from the last boss of the wing you get one token (per week) for a ilevel 460 weapon (you need 7 to buy the weapon)ilevel 450 gear - obtained from craftingilevel 460 gear - bought for tomestones of phantasmagoria. Similar to goetia, currency you get from doing some duty roulettes as a level 80 character. Unlike with goetia, the amount you can get each week is capped. Notice, that the weapon requires not only tomestones, but also 7 tokens from the raid i mentioned before.That gear can be augmented to ilevel 470, using tokens obtained from savage version of Eden raid.ilevel 470 armor and trinkets (different that the augmented gear mentioned above) - obtained from the savage version of the Eden raid (again, the amount of drops is capped weekly)Notice, that there's a first wing of an level 80 alliance (24-man) raid incoming, that both normal and alliance raids are going to have 3 wings each (each with better gear), and there will be one more tier of tomestone currency you will be obtaining from duty roulettes, and that all the weekly caps on tomestones and drops are going to eventually be removed. Additionally, as soon as the next expac hits, you will be able to buy the best gear for tomestones of poetics (the levelling gear currency, one you start obtaining from duty roulettes as soon as you hit level 50)

As you can see, raids are important part of the gearing process if you insist on always having the best gear, but they become far less so if you're not in a hurry.

For example, i don't play savages and thus don't have gear from them, but i don't feel like i am losing out by that.

Havent followed ultimates myself at all outside of watching guilds doing progression on them, what the rewards for those was it glamour, title, or smth else?

afaik its not straight up gear with ilvl.

Btw what datacenter are you on?

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@zealex.9410 said:Havent followed ultimates myself at all outside of watching guilds doing progression on them, what the rewards for those was it glamour, title, or smth else?Glamour.Weapon's Refrain, for example, gives Ultima weapons. At ilevel 375 they were 5 ilevels higher than the highest level 70 gear available when it was released (which is minor enough that other players would not complain), but by the time the whole Stormblood cycle ended, the highest ilevel available for level 70 was 400 for upgraded tomestone gear and 405 from last Omega (Savage) wing.Bahamut Ultimate rewards Ultimate Dreadwyrm weapons, that are similar, but (since they were released earlier in the cycle) are at only ilevel 345

afaik its not straight up gear with ilvl.Technically it is, but as far as gear go it became obsoleted by newer gear within few months from release. So, basically, glamour.I'm not sure about titles, although i wouldn't be surprised if there was one.

Btw what datacenter are you on?Cerberus (Chaos)

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Make an already hard to access game mode for most players even harder ... makes sense.

I mean, I get that what is labelled hard isn't for some people, but I think this isn't the direction that makes sense for the majority of the people that play this game. Put it this way ... if Anet had to choose to make a change to the game to serve a few or many ... from a business perspective that choice is obvious. It might be anecdotal, but there seems to be way more concern for making easier raid options for the players than harder ones.

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@Obtena.7952 said:Make an already hard to access game mode for most players even harder ... makes sense.

I mean, I get that what is labelled hard isn't for some people, but I think this isn't the direction that makes sense for the majority of the people that play this game. Put it this way ... if Anet had to choose to make a change to the game to serve a few or many ... from a business perspective that choice is obvious. It might be anecdotal, but there seems to be way more concern for making easier raid options for the players than harder ones.

This suggestion was specifically made for cm, for all i care nm could be made even easier in the process. When it comes to ppl complaining about t4s being too hard forum users are quick to let them know that they can go down tiers if it is too hard for them.

Same rule aplies here, diferent dificulties serve to keep diff kinds of ppl busy.

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I hate this idea and oppose it every time I see it. It's ok as 3 day event in wvw, but not as a permanent thing. Its a bad way to create difficulty, because it is just turning off game systems rather than making things more difficult. Classes are designed and balanced with the assumption that downstate exists. There are many traits, and skills that would suddenly become totally obsolete.

There was once a fractal instability called antielitism. If you used your elite skill, you died. That was all it did. All it did was turn off a part of the game. It was really stupid, however technically it was slightly more difficult than not having it. Similarly, I think your idea creates difficulty in a bad way.

In particular, by creating difficulty in a manner which ignores how the game way balanced. For example, Anet balances necro dps to be low because of its large health pool (max hp + either shroud or barrier). However, in a world where downstate doesn't exist, I would actually argue condi scourge is insanely overpowered considering how much more risk there is in running a condi weaver.

I don't see many people saying dhuum cm is too easy. Its a great encounter that didn't have to resort to cheap tricks like turning off downstate. Instead, it forces you to split your attention, with several punishing mechanics. If we want more difficulty in raids, I think this is a better way to do it.

So, how might this look? Say we wanted to make a vale guardian challenge mote. Rather than removing downstate, I would say, crank up the bullet hell aspect of the encounter. The red orbs (seekers) and the white orbs are present in normal mode, but mostly in normal mode you ignore the white orbs. Something where you have to pay attention to the white orbs would allow for interesting challenge mode (they would of course need to be made more visible). Or, maybe just ramp up the red orb difficulty. Triple their numbers, make them immune to cc, make them move much faster, make them hit harder (I wouldn't say insta-down, it is a bullet hell after all) and rather than always move towards the players, make them move randomly through the arena bouncing off the walls. Also don't let them despawn, but also don't let them spawn. Just a constant number throughout the fight. The point would be to create a bullet hell situation on top of the regular encounter.

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@zealex.9410 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Make an already hard to access game mode for most players even harder ... makes sense.

I mean, I get that what is labelled hard isn't for some people, but I think this isn't the direction that makes sense for the majority of the people that play this game. Put it this way ... if Anet had to choose to make a change to the game to serve a few or many ... from a business perspective that choice is obvious. It might be anecdotal, but there seems to be way more concern for making easier raid options for the players than harder ones.

This suggestion was specifically made for cm, for all i care nm could be made even easier in the process. When it comes to ppl complaining about t4s being too hard forum users are quick to let them know that they can go down tiers if it is too hard for them.

Same rule aplies here, diferent dificulties serve to keep diff kinds of ppl busy.

Yeah, but T4 are vastly easier than raids and don't even come close to CMs.

The recommendation for making T4 feactals easier is, at least for me personally, based solely on the balance between difficulty versus reward perspective. If T4 fractals were less rewarding, I personally could care less if they are made harder or easier.

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@zealex.9410 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Make an already hard to access game mode for most players even harder ... makes sense.

I mean, I get that what is labelled hard isn't for some people, but I think this isn't the direction that makes sense for the majority of the people that play this game. Put it this way ... if Anet had to choose to make a change to the game to serve a few or many ... from a business perspective that choice is obvious. It might be anecdotal, but there seems to be way more concern for making easier raid options for the players than harder ones.

This suggestion was specifically made for cm, for all i care nm could be made even easier in the process. When it comes to ppl complaining about t4s being too hard forum users are quick to let them know that they can go down tiers if it is too hard for them.

Same rule aplies here, diferent dificulties serve to keep diff kinds of ppl busy.

Yeah, but T4 are vastly easier than raids and don't even come close to CMs.

The objection to making T4 feactals easier is, at least for me personally, based solely on the balance between difficulty versus reward perspective. If T4 fractals were less rewarding, I personally could care less if they are made harder or easier.

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When i came to gw2 downstate was a huge shock. I have always played games where you are alive or dead no inbetween. I dont mind downstate but i agree that its a clutch mechanic that can save the day. Maybe for CMs it would be a nice bit of challenge for the really good players to see if they can do it without the ability to rez downstates. But for normals naw that would be a bad deal. But yeah i like the idea of no downstate in CM.

I saw the erp challenge, and i think that removing or putting the option in to remove downstate in cms would make the raids be very hard to master. Its a challenge that hard cores would love. And they need stuff to challenge them, im a casual i do a little raiding and i like it, i dont want to see raiding die out, its a great part of the game. My dps is abysmal and my guild carries me a lot, but i love raiding, and i think the really good players should have more challenge, and anet should keep up on adding raid content.

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@zealex.9410 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Make an already hard to access game mode for most players even harder ... makes sense.

I mean, I get that what is labelled hard isn't for some people, but I think this isn't the direction that makes sense for the majority of the people that play this game. Put it this way ... if Anet had to choose to make a change to the game to serve a few or many ... from a business perspective that choice is obvious. It might be anecdotal, but there seems to be way more concern for making easier raid options for the players than harder ones.

This suggestion was specifically made for cm, for all i care nm could be made even easier in the process. When it comes to ppl complaining about t4s being too hard forum users are quick to let them know that they can go down tiers if it is too hard for them.

Same rule aplies here, diferent dificulties serve to keep diff kinds of ppl busy.

I realize your suggestion was to take exclusive and make it more so. That still doesn't change the steps that any developer would have to take to justify doing it ... including how they would resource it to get it done vs. other more valuable efforts.

I mean, if you just want to restrict yourself to a discussion about if there could be harder content for people that want harder, sure there COULD be. If you actually wanted to talk about if it should be done, then you have to think about all the things that Anet could do, not just the one you want.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Make an already hard to access game mode for most players even harder ... makes sense.

I mean, I get that what is labelled hard isn't for some people, but I think this isn't the direction that makes sense for the majority of the people that play this game. Put it this way ... if Anet had to choose to make a change to the game to serve a few or many ... from a business perspective that choice is obvious. It might be anecdotal, but there seems to be way more concern for making easier raid options for the players than harder ones.

This suggestion was specifically made for cm, for all i care nm could be made even easier in the process. When it comes to ppl complaining about t4s being too hard forum users are quick to let them know that they can go down tiers if it is too hard for them.

Same rule aplies here, diferent dificulties serve to keep diff kinds of ppl busy.

I realize your suggestion was to take exclusive and make it more so. That still doesn't change the steps that any developer would have to take to justify doing it ... including how they would resource it to get it done vs. other more valuable efforts.

I mean, if you just want to restrict yourself to a discussion about if there could be harder content for people that want harder, sure there COULD be. If you actually wanted to talk about if it should be done, then you have to think about all the things that Anet could do, not just the one you want.

Teapot was in talks with them about the downstate thing and they looked very open to the idea of doing it. To some extend that implies that the resources needed for it arent as much.

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@zealex.9410 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Make an already hard to access game mode for most players even harder ... makes sense.

I mean, I get that what is labelled hard isn't for some people, but I think this isn't the direction that makes sense for the majority of the people that play this game. Put it this way ... if Anet had to choose to make a change to the game to serve a few or many ... from a business perspective that choice is obvious. It might be anecdotal, but there seems to be way more concern for making easier raid options for the players than harder ones.

This suggestion was specifically made for cm, for all i care nm could be made even easier in the process. When it comes to ppl complaining about t4s being too hard forum users are quick to let them know that they can go down tiers if it is too hard for them.

Same rule aplies here, diferent dificulties serve to keep diff kinds of ppl busy.

I realize your suggestion was to take exclusive and make it more so. That still doesn't change the steps that any developer would have to take to justify doing it ... including how they would resource it to get it done vs. other more valuable efforts.

I mean, if you just want to restrict yourself to a discussion about if there could be harder content for people that want harder, sure there COULD be. If you actually wanted to talk about if it should be done, then you have to think about all the things that Anet could do, not just the one you want.

Teapot was in talks with them about the downstate thing and they looked very open to the idea of doing it. To some extend that implies that the resources needed for it arent as much.

I don't think that says anything about resources; I mean, being open to an idea doesn't mean all the sudden they have people or time to get it done. When did this talk happen?

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