Disable another degenerate build please

[saerni.2584]

I mean we can argue semantics. I’d argue that warrior’s reckless dodge “comes with the dodge” even if it is a separate attack.

The AoE daggers from Lotus are probably triggering Weakening Strikes. I’d need to test it to be sure.

Again, I think this is a lot a hot air over nothing.

[Tayga.3192]

@Alatar.7364 said:That's what I am saying, the dodge does not apply 4 condis, weakness does not apply on the dodge. _(mentioned it twice by now, but your page probably was not refreshed)

What difference does it make in a practical environment?

[Alatar.7364]

@Tayga.3192 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:That's what I am saying, the dodge does not apply 4 condis, weakness does not apply on the dodge. _(mentioned it twice by now, but your page probably was not refreshed)

What difference does it make in a practical environment?

If you read my original post I said that it's about addressing it properly, in practical environment it makes all the difference if you know what's happening, but the point is to not nerf/buff traits/stuff based on a false missguiding statements that I tried to correct in a polite way at first.

[Crab Fear.1624]

@"saerni.2584" said:I mean we can argue semantics. I’d argue that warrior’s reckless dodge “comes with the dodge” even if it is a separate attack.

The AoE daggers from Lotus are probably triggering Weakening Strikes. I’d need to test it to be sure.

Again, I think this is a lot a hot air over nothing.

not on the first dodge.

lotus poison could trigger of poison on steal and cause weakness, or it could trigger on lotus training if you have deadly ambition traited which is only triggering lotus poison.

to get the weakness from from weakening strikes it would need to be an attack after the entire dodge has completed (this includes every dagger from impaling lotus landing)

I think many mesmer mains are mad about the word degenerate and took it the wrong way, perhaps as a noun, like they were being called scoundrels or something like that.

but, i am pretty sure the meaning of degenerate gameplay in this case was "having declined or become less specialized in nature or intent".

[praqtos.9035]

@saerni.2584 said:I mean we can argue semantics. I’d argue that warrior’s reckless dodge “comes with the dodge” even if it is a separate attack.

The AoE daggers from Lotus are probably triggering Weakening Strikes. I’d need to test it to be sure.Indeed, you gain weakening strikes after dodge ends, yet, does it change that first burst dont need it and procs from steal(or deadly ambition)->poison->weakness and then every dodge is literally applies 4 ?:DLike literally, even if u miss steal, your any hit applies poison(lotus training for an example) from the deadly ambition and it becomes weakness, next any evade gives 4 condis from daredevil alone.Lol.I would love to see how you can play without cleanses against 1-2 condi drd without being blown instant if you didnt random dodge their sword engage.Again, I think this is a lot a hot air over nothing.Thats what this mad Alatar is doing much hot air over nothing

[Tayga.3192]

@"Alatar.7364" said:in practical environment it makes all the difference if you know what's happening

What difference does it make? I want a specific example instead of "all the difference"

[Alatar.7364]

@Tayga.3192 said:

@"Alatar.7364" said:in practical environment it makes all the difference if you know what's happening

What difference does it make? I want a specific example instead of "all the difference"

Easy CC during the locked frames after the dodge or a burst if you're burst profession (almost a death sentence for thief, at least with stunbreak on CD), easy cleanse before thieves next attack (gets weakness applied but removes damaging condis), resistance, block or dodge.You can do all this (based on your professions access to any of those), quite a few workarounds, especially Warrior with his CC will completely shut this down due to unavoidable locked-frames after Thief evade, but that's far too specific example.Note I don't like Condi DrD too, but this simply is not the real issue.

[voltaicbore.8012]

I initially had a hard time dealing with the recent resurgence of condi DD, but I adjusted by not being so committed to standing on point, and making sure to have some escape/cleanse cd's ready when I was running to where I either saw or predicted the DD to show up. The condi spam is annoying, but it's been manageable on the classes I've played so far.

In exchange for winning more fights, I've had to let the DD get a full decap on points more often. Ideally I'd like to be able to reclaim our ability to stand on point and fight off thieves, but I'll accept this status quo for now.

[praqtos.9035]

@Alatar.7364 said:

@Tayga.3192 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:in practical environment it makes all the difference if you know what's happening

What difference does it make? I want a specific example instead of "all the difference"

Easy CC during the locked frames after the dodge or a burst if you're burst profession

(almost a death sentence for thief, at least with stunbreak on CD)

, easy cleanse before thieves next attack

(gets weakness applied but removes damaging condis)

, resistance, block or dodge.You can do all this

(based on your professions access to any of those)

, quite a few workarounds, especially Warrior with his CC will completely shut this down due to unavoidable locked-frames after Thief evade, but that's far too specific example.Note I don't like Condi DrD too, but this simply is not the real issue.Easy cc? To cc something your char must turn in front of something you want to CC and being immobilized he wont do that.Then "BURST WITH WEAKNESS ON" AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA."easy cleanse" ye, easly cleanse of 6-8 conditons, very easy, everyone can do that every few seconds, piece of cake.I dont even know... Quadriple facepalm wont be enough to express my feelings

[Alatar.7364]

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

@Tayga.3192 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:in practical environment it makes all the difference if you know what's happening

What difference does it make? I want a specific example instead of "all the difference"

Easy CC during the locked frames after the dodge or a burst if you're burst profession

(almost a death sentence for thief, at least with stunbreak on CD)

, easy cleanse before thieves next attack

(gets weakness applied but removes damaging condis)

, resistance, block or dodge.You can do all this

(based on your professions access to any of those)

, quite a few workarounds, especially Warrior with his CC will completely shut this down due to unavoidable locked-frames after Thief evade, but that's far too specific example.Note I don't like Condi DrD too, but this simply is not the real issue.Easy cc? To cc something your char must turn in front of something you want to CC and being immobilized he wont do that thats.Then "BURST WITH WEAKNESS ON" AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA."easy cleanse" ye, easly cleanse of 6-8 conditons, very easy, everyone can do that every few seconds, piece of cake.I dont even know... Quadriple facepalm wont be enough to express my feelings

He/she is asking about avoiding the Weakness from minor trait that cames after the dodge, meaning you are not immobilized nor weakened nor is the question concerning condi from DA or Trickery, so ye easy CC (if you got CC) or burst or anything else from the list I mentioned.

[praqtos.9035]

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:I think many mesmer mains are mad about the word degenerate and took it the wrong way, perhaps as a noun, like they were being called scoundrels or something like that.but, i am pretty sure the meaning of degenerate gameplay in this case was "having declined or become less specialized in nature or intent".Of course not, I'm not mad. I used it to describe condi daredevil we have now as they described CI mirage. ^-^

[praqtos.9035]

@Alatar.7364 said:He/she is asking about avoiding the Weakness from minor trait that cames after the dodge, meaning you are not immobilized nor weakened nor is the question concerning condi from DA or Trickery, so ye easy CC (if you got CC) or burst or anything else from the list I mentioned.I see no reason to argue about something that will never ever happen. On top of that daredevil has super special dodges? It cant be chained? It has higher delay before you can use ur regular skills to use evade skill ? To think about it, even mirage unable to double evade in a row perfectly, every class can die in the blink of the eye then and its ultimate counter,instadestroy it after evade (but dont be surprised if they use invul/evade/breakstun and you die instead few moments later)

[Alatar.7364]

@praqtos.9035 said:

@"Alatar.7364" said:He/she is asking about avoiding the Weakness from minor trait that cames

after

the dodge, meaning you are not immobilized nor weakened nor is the question concerning condi from DA or Trickery, so ye easy CC

(if you got CC)

or burst or anything else from the list I mentioned.I see no reason to argue about something that will never ever happen. On top of that daredevil has super special dodges? It cant be chained?

Indeed it can't be chained, there is cca 0.5 sec window before another evade frame from another evade skill can happen during which its locked, it takes only one CC or burst for thief to be on complete defense/run, you can quite easily precast CCs during its evades and land it without a chance to miss it which is why I mentioned Warrior as a good way to erase thief since both Shield4 and Bullscharge will basically "trigger in place" and land when they can CC despite being used during thief dodge (the thief can only port away to avoid that but that's also his only stunbreak so the next dodge is also GG anyway)

[praqtos.9035]

@Alatar.7364 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:He/she is asking about avoiding the Weakness from minor trait that cames

after

the dodge, meaning you are not immobilized nor weakened nor is the question concerning condi from DA or Trickery, so ye easy CC

(if you got CC)

or burst or anything else from the list I mentioned.I see no reason to argue about something that will never ever happen. On top of that daredevil has super special dodges? It cant be chained?

Indeed it can't be chained, there is cca 0.5 secI did 2 in a row without any sign of the problem as soon its ended (exactly as every other class, including mirage). The only one who can confirm that daredevil evade is special and has prolonged "aftercast" is only devs themselves otherwise I see absolutely no difference. Evade skills working normal as wellSince your case of not running anything you mentioned never happen, thats pretty impossible to do, especially wasting a burst into weakness...

[Alatar.7364]

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:He/she is asking about avoiding the Weakness from minor trait that cames

after

the dodge, meaning you are not immobilized nor weakened nor is the question concerning condi from DA or Trickery, so ye easy CC

(if you got CC)

or burst or anything else from the list I mentioned.I see no reason to argue about something that will never ever happen. On top of that daredevil has super special dodges? It cant be chained?

Indeed it can't be chained, there is cca 0.5 secI did 2 in a row without any sign of the problem as soon its ended (exactly as every other class, including mirage). The only one who can confirm that daredevil evade is special and has prolonged "aftercast" is only devs themselves otherwise I see absolutely no difference. Evade skills working normal as wellSince your case of not running anything you mentioned never happen, thats pretty impossible to do, especially wasting a burst into weakness...

Just because someone didn't manage to CC you or just because you did not manage to land the CC doesn't mean it does not exist and I never mentioned DrD dodges being special, it applies to normal dodgerolls too, I land it almost every time when on a profession with CC, the window may not be all that long but you have an entire enemy player dodge animation-time to prepare for the window and hit it correctly.You can test it yourself if you go to the Charr dodge trainer somewhere in the starting map, dodge across/along the mines (not over and behind them) and you'll get knocked back before you can dodge again, you can try it with the Dodge golem in PvP too but that one has a short attack time (despite its arms still rotating) so the golems attack will probably be over by the time your dodge ends.

Timing an attack to hit during the locked-frames (could be considered dodge aftercast) is a very common strategy, you can definitely see it in some steamers videos happening, especially on Condi DrDs since there is so many right now, sadly I can't really remember any video in specific to link.

[praqtos.9035]

@Alatar.7364 said:I meant this impossible -> conditions you set wouldnt be met, you can CC people right after evade without a problem, especially when they dont expect nor see that enemy actually used a shield bash or BC or whatnot, clearly can get booped. Its far away from the thread anyway

[Alatar.7364]

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:I meant this impossible -> conditions you set wouldnt be met, you can CC people right after evade without a problem, especially when they dont expect nor see that enemy actually used a shield bash or BC or whatnot, clearly can get booped. Its far away from the thread anyway

Wait what conditions did I set? I thought we were talking simply about stopping a chained evade (CCing/Bursting in between two dodges in case the enemy was literally smashing the dodge button perpetually)

[praqtos.9035]

@Alatar.7364 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:I meant this impossible -> conditions you set wouldnt be met, you can CC people right after evade without a problem, especially when they dont expect nor see that enemy actually used a shield bash or BC or whatnot, clearly can get booped. Its far away from the thread anyway

Wait what conditions did I set? I thought we were talking simply about stopping a chained evade

(CCing/Bursting in between two dodges in case the enemy was literally smashing the dodge button perpetually)

This I guess ? At least I thought about it. (so much misunderstanding over nothing, can we stop?)He/she is asking about avoiding the Weakness from minor trait that cames

after

the dodge, meaning you are not immobilized nor weakened nor is the question concerning condi from DA or Trickery, so ye easy CC

(if you got CC)

or burst or anything else from the list I mentioned.Anyway, I'm off to bed

[Alatar.7364]

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:I meant this impossible -> conditions you set wouldnt be met, you can CC people right after evade without a problem, especially when they dont expect nor see that enemy actually used a shield bash or BC or whatnot, clearly can get booped. Its far away from the thread anyway

Wait what conditions did I set? I thought we were talking simply about stopping a chained evade

(CCing/Bursting in between two dodges in case the enemy was literally smashing the dodge button perpetually)

This I guess ? At least I thought about it. (so much misunderstanding over nothing, can we stop?)

Kk

[mehelpu.7160]

Hmm, if they disable the build thieves stop running it and you can not farm them as easy anymore. Why would one ask for a free lunch to over? :/

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@H a z Z y.1762 said:What is the appropriate way to fight vs condi drd? Are you supposed to dodge the immob from sword 2? Is that a realistic goal? If so, my reaction time is too slow / i need to work on it.

You either out mobilize it and disengage into a team fight for cover, or you get so aggressive with it that you quickly bait out its dodges/evades/roll for init/shadowstep/dagger storm, which forces it to disengage or stay and die.

Classes that have actual kill potential in 1v1 vs. the Condi DrD are:

• Any Holosmith who lands a CC
• Good Spellbreaker play
• Good Power or Condi Mirage play
• Good Weaver play
• Clown and Acani on Deadeye
• Anya on Staff/Staff DrD

Everything else is shit out of luck and loses 1v1s to Condi DrDs, unless the Condi DrD seriously fumbles or is a bad Thief.

[rowdy.5107]

people are crying because they cant just run through a d/d or s/d condi thief like they could aginst a d/p thief. now, they have to actually figure out how to fight the thief. and if they don't have the skills, build, patience to do it. they are gonna get wrecked. and when they get wrecked they come to the forums and complain.

[Crab Fear.1624]

@rowdy.5107 said:people are crying because they cant just run through a d/d or s/d condi thief like they could aginst a d/p thief. now, they have to actually figure out how to fight the thief. and if they don't have the skills, build, patience to do it. they are gonna get wrecked. and when they get wrecked they come to the forums and complain.

Who is having trouble with a dag/dag thief?

[Dantheman.3589]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@H a z Z y.1762 said:What is the appropriate way to fight vs condi drd? Are you supposed to dodge the immob from sword 2? Is that a realistic goal? If so, my reaction time is too slow / i need to work on it.

You either out mobilize it and disengage into a team fight for cover, or you get so aggressive with it that you quickly bait out its dodges/evades/roll for init/shadowstep/dagger storm, which forces it to disengage or stay and die.

Classes that have actual kill potential in 1v1 vs. the Condi DrD are:

• Any Holosmith who lands a CC
• Good Spellbreaker play
• Good Power or Condi Mirage play
• Good Weaver play
• Clown and Acani on Deadeye
• Anya on Staff/Staff DrD

Everything else is kitten out of luck and loses 1v1s to Condi DrDs, unless the Condi DrD seriously fumbles or is a bad Thief.

Pretty much u mentioned is correct but only in the situation u presented which when out of cds and ports. Condi sword can make clown kitten of any build u mentioned when in short range besides acro staff. The reason that yes u can win 1v1 is because everything u mentioned can exploit condi thief’s weakness- which is how squish is without acro. The situations u presented are the only time these builds and players can burst down condi sw/d. I’ll even say I went against clown in an at and made kitten meat off him the only reason he was effective still was becuz every player on my team(1v1ers) all needed a plus 1 at once since they were out skilled allow clown the room to avoid me half the time. The real true counter to condi thief is burst which can be done on anything but in normal situations You cannot burst them becuz condi thief wins all the match ups You suggested- except staff which u don’t have to worry about being a side noder...

[Swagg.9236]

@Crab Fear.1624 said:The trait is fine.

Sword 2 is the problem

They're both significant issues respectively.