Is it toxic to feel like I am not respected by Arenanet anymore?

[Hofulu.7325]

CLARIFY: By not respected I mean by Management and Advertising. You know who NEVER logs in to actually see whats going on? Anyone from Management and Advertising. Know who I see, being friendly, engaging with the community, and making my time in game even more enjoyable? The Devs who actually care about this game in ways other than strictly money.

Also, to those saying im not a client. Another example of people who aren't clients but pay to use a service is a sandwhich shop. Say they have this menu that lists all these items, but you can only get like 2 of them on the whole list, and when you ask them about the others, they aren't allowed to say whether or not they do have it in stock, but it still says available on the menu, but they can't say anything about it. Say one day they switched the meat in your favorite sandwhich (strike modes) but when you asked them about if the other meat will be available again soon, they aren't allowed to tell you, even though the menu still says that meat is in stock. Its the best way I can describe how annoyingly confusing their silence about critical parts of the game is. It's like they try to build their menu while improving / changing the ingredients of some items over time, and then when people ask about the other menu items its like they aren't allowed to say anything or the boss will do something terrible to them (dungeons, fractals, polishing old content, improving the graphical quality of old maps, player race graphical improvements, warcalw map breaking bugs, why the invisible walls in DR and nothing to stop the WvW exploits, 2v2 queue, etc.) Its like all of those things are actually sitting on the menu, and they aren't crossed out, but when you ask for them they say sorry we are out of stock and have no idea if or when any of those things will even have an ingredients list we can discuss. Over the course of 7 years they have consistently been able to actually discuss less and less items on the menu, without saying their is a reason why, without saying whether its going to affect the other items on the menu, without being able to tell customers who see it on the menu and inquire about it whether its something that is going to change. I'm getting tired of this lack of transparency about the other items on the menu. And there are ALOT more, very valid inquiries about this menu than just "reeeee WvW NOW reeeeeeee PvP everything every other pvp game has NOW reeeeeeee"

And I forgot to even mention, those items that they WILL talk about are priced way less (living world), essentially free if you are just standing in the shop while they are putting them on display. The actual substantial money they are making in this shop is from charging for the optional toppings over on that other counter. The menu items haven't actually lost ingredients or topping that come with them by default, but holy kitten is that toppings table getting bigger (gem store). I have been a sucker for toppings, I was fooled into thinking I NEED toppings on my sandwhiches to enjoy them but have been finding that is less and less the case. Now I just buy toppings because I'm afraid that if I dont the entire sandwhich shop is going to close.

Actively trying to understand and clarify the future of the game I want to spend money on has been repeatedly futile. Do their business models really tell them that the entire studio's future can be maintained by a majority of people who don't even log in until their is something free to do, in hopes they will once in a while say "oh this is cool hey Anet heres 10 bucks after 6 or 7 months, thanks." I really hope that is the case, because I want them to succeed above all toxicity and above all expectations. I spent years playing this game so actively and spending my money almost equally as actively, but I don't understand what kind of future I am supporting anymore if the current plans have already been funded to the point of getting the green light. Every year, it has gotten harder to feel confident that I know what the future of the game holds, is there some way other than deciding to care less about the game that that sentiment could actually make me feel better? In a weird, twisted way, could caring less about the game actually help them maintain a steady ship? Is the passion I wish could actually bring the potential of this game to life nothing more than toxic tsunamis that make it harder for Arenanet to stay above water? How do I change my behavior in a way that doesn't only harm them, when I cannot convince anyone to play who doesn't already by talking about it so passively?

• This part below is debatable given I do not have any information to tell whether internally this helps them or not, its just the perception that it doesn't from an outside perspective, but I'll keep it anyway for people to dissect and discuss should they want to.

• What people have done to rubi bayer, and others in the gaming industry since before gw2 as she has pointed out, is horrible, unacceptable, and not in any single way justifiable by any means, whatsoever.I don't think a truly professional response to that is 7 straight years of treating people like me, who could never think of doing any of the things she described, as one in the same with all of those horrible people, and trying to communicate with people like with the same level of caution and reservation. I understand its hard if not impossible to talk to one group without opening an avenue for the other group to talk anyway, but I would have rather Arenanet said that season 5 will not happen until they, the company, are stable enough to bring true and real transparency to the community that has sat quietly waiting for that repeated promise to be fulfilled. I, someone who has defended the game and its developers for 7 years, feel ignored and disrespected by this continued silence. Morsels in the form of a post about potential things that could end up on the table at some point before the lifespan of gw2 meets its end is not a respectable way to silence concerns, and after 7 years, I am starting to realize that it feels like that is all that has ever happened; a thread here and there when the toxic minority spikes. If it is toxic to feel that way, then it is toxic to have more than passive passion for this game. I come here to ask questions, my accusations are directed at Arenanet, the company. Treating me like I single out individual people when my concerns are about the company as a whole, is a flavor of toxic to me. Treating players who play game modes that don't put food on the table for Arenanet with carrots on sticks so as to avoid having to directly tell them the status and future of the parts of the game they play, is what stings the most. This announcement should not have happened until Arenanet, the company as a whole, felt ready to truly bring the level of transparency and detail that I have been waiting for, for 7 years now.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

That does not excuse 7 straight years of treating people like me, who could never think of doing any of the things she described, as one in the same with all of those horrible people.Good thing you haven't been treated the same.

I ... feel ignored and disrespected by this continued silence.Why? ANet has always been weak at communicating, they've always been tight-lipped about plans for the future, they always use jargon to gloss over the sorts of details fans like to see, they have always allowed for rampant speculation (and the disappointment that sometimes results).

What makes this occasion different from any of the others?

If it is toxic to feel that way,No one is saying it's toxic to have a feeling. "Toxic" is about how one's ideas are expressed.

This announcement should not have happened until Arenanet, the company as a whole, felt ready to truly bring the level of transparency and detail that I have been waiting for, for 7 years now.Why? You've seen this for 7 years. What is different today from 2012 or 2014 (content drought, no hint of expac)?

To be clear: I'm not a fan of ANet's marketing or communication choices. It's not how I'd run the company. Then again: if I were in charge, there's a good chance the company would be out of business, because it's easy to second-guess advertising strategies and it's incredibly difficult to build a smoothly-playing game that millions can enjoy for hundreds or thousands of hours.

[dodgerrule.8739]

The difference between 2012 and 2017 was they announced their plans weeks in advanced. Now it’s months in advanced with no filler content

[Hofulu.7325]

@"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

That does not excuse 7 straight years of treating people like me, who could never think of doing any of the things she described, as one in the same with all of those horrible people.Good thing you haven't been treated the same.

I ... feel ignored and disrespected by this continued silence.Why? ANet has always been weak at communicating, they've always been tight-lipped about plans for the future, they always use jargon to gloss over the sorts of details fans like to see, they have always allowed for rampant speculation (and the disappointment that sometimes results).

What makes this occasion different from any of the others?

If it is toxic to feel that way,No one is saying it's toxic to have a feeling. "Toxic" is about how one's ideas are expressed.

This announcement should not have happened until Arenanet, the company as a whole, felt ready to truly bring the level of transparency and detail that I have been waiting for, for 7 years now.Why? You've seen this for 7 years. What is different today from 2012 or 2014 (content drought, no hint of expac)?

To be clear: I'm not a fan of ANet's marketing or communication choices. It's not how I'd run the company. Then again: if I were in charge, there's a good chance the company would be out of business, because it's easy to second-guess advertising strategies and it's incredibly difficult to build a smoothly-playing game that millions can enjoy for hundreds or thousands of hours.

If I only cared enough about the game to spend 10 bucks like once every 6 months, and to log in just to snag something I don't have to pay for, so that I can continue to have something to do without having to spend any money, then where is the support for this game coming from? It's coming from people who are more passionate than that. But Arenanet seems to be catering to those kinds of people, who just want something to do without having to pay for it. I am honestly surprised their models for the future tell them that those types of people could actually support the future of their company, and because I love this game and the stories they tell, I hope they are correct that they can sustain the current studio with a majority playerbase who seem to be only passively interested.

[nosleepdemon.1368]

Toxic toxicity is toxically toxic. Toxic toxicington, toxicity and toxicality. Toxic.

That word OP, I don't think you and many others think it means what it really means.

[kharmin.7683]

@Hofulu.7325 said:But Arenanet seems to be catering to those kinds of people, who just want something to do without having to pay for it.You do know that many players pay for things via gold -> gem conversion without having spent a single real dollar after their initial purchase?

[deatine.2498]

You must be living in a completely different world than I do. I come, I see something I like, I take it. If I see things I don't like, I leave them. If I don't like the WvW mode, I leave it. If I don't like GW2 as a whole at some point, I leave it and do something else entirely. But if the new LS episodes seems nice, I take that. If a new collection looks fun, I'll do that. If something pretty in the cash shop looks like I'll be using it for quite some time, I'll buy it.
I simply assume that what I see right now is what I get right now, period.I don't care about what Arenanet says or does not say, because that would not change what exist in the game right now when I decide "hmm, do I want to play GW2 today".

I believe my attitude is basically summed up in

If it is toxic to feel that way, then it is toxic to have more than passive passion for this game.

I'm not sure what "active passion" about a video game would to be, but I'd just wager that GW2 is in fact not meant for those.
I also had no idea who Rubi Bayer is until I googled it right now, and I don't even care what happened because I'm just here to play a friggin game.

What makes me play less is, in fact, all the yapping I see mostly outside of the game. Time to log out of the forums and such again!

[Trise.2865]

It's not "toxic" to have feelings. It is not "toxic" to express feelings.

It is toxic to express feelings aggressively or dismissively: "my way is the only way", "you all must please me", "your idea doesn't belong here", "do X or get out", spamming the same thing over and over again under the vague pretense of "being heard", etc.

[ugrakarma.9416]

next Episode trailer should have "Toxicity" from Britney as soundtrack.

[Danikat.8537]

Anet are not your parents, they are a company who make a commercial product you happen to enjoy. They are not required to support and encourage you and listen to every thought you want to share, or even to acknowledge you beyond selling you what you've paid for. If you feel like a commercial company isn't giving you the attention you need and that your "passion" is not rewarded I recommend looking elsewhere. (In fact even if you think they are meeting all your needs I recommend looking elsewhere because that wouldn't be a healthy relationship when for one side it's purely business.)

Guild Wars 2 is a game, it's a way of spending your time when you don't have anything better to do. If you start feeling like it's more important than that and that it's a source of frustration - that there's no way to effectively direct your feelings towards it - then I recommend taking a break and finding something else to fulfil that role in your life, preferably something where you can have the degree of control you feel you require.

[Gehenna.3625]

The game industry seems to be generally "confused" by what is and what isn't toxic. Toxicity is when you attack people with comments and threats with the purpose of hurting them. What happened is that because there is so much negativity that they have to deal with that they misuse the word "toxicity" and their reasoning seems to be that "as long as it hurts my feelings, it must be toxic". That is not the same thing however and is simply incorrect usage of the term. It's sad also because they are a big part of the reason why there is so much more toxicity these days and they don't seem to get that or perhaps they don't want to get that. With they I mean the game industry in general by the way.

So as long as you are not trying to attack them, particularly personally, with the intent of hurting them out of vengeance or spite, you are not toxic. It may hurt their feelings when you dislike what they do but that doesn't mean you're being toxic. They may experience it as such but that is not your fault.

So avoid direct insults to people. Use ArenaNet as a target rather than any one person. Avoid insults even then and don't let your anger speak more than your sense. It's hard sometimes but you should have the ability to put the brakes on even if occasionally you cross the line accidentally.

For example, I think the announcement yesterday should have been the announcement of a new expansion. It wasn't. I find that unfortunate and I wish it had been the announcement of an expansion because that's what I need to play this game actively again. So the next LS chapter doesn't really hold my interest. It might hurt the developers' feelings that I am not interested in what they are excited about presenting, but I'm the one spending money here so I will say so when they're not giving me what I want from this game. It's not what I want from them and I'm not required to be happy with this just cause they want that.

That's not toxic. However, if I'd come here and raged about how terrible they are and how girl X and guy Y are crap etc. then it becomes toxic.

I won't say the next chapter sucks for example because I can't know that. I can say that I find that it sucks we're not getting an announcement for a next expansion. And if it happens more often that I don't get what I wish from this game, then yes, I will start feeling they don't care about me as a customer. Especially when I never get any answers, direct or indirect for my concerns.

It's ok to feel the way you do and express it. Just don't make it personal. There are people that work hard to create this content and there are people who make decisions about the direction of the game. It's the decision makers that I have issues with because I don't understand why they make certain decisions and because they don't really explain it and from what they do indicate I get the feeling it's more about what they want rather than what I want. That can upset me.

I've certainly been angry in the past and I still don't like everything that happens but I do try to have boundaries, because it's not about making it personal for me, but my frustrations such as they are, are indeed personal for me. It's just very frustrating when people in general are asking about something over and over again and they just stay silent on the topic. But I still shouldn't make it personal but I do feel I need to express my discontent because the sure way to make sure that nothing change is to stay silent. And that's no good for sure.

Hope that helps.

[Blocki.4931]

@dodgerrule.8739 said:The difference between 2012 and 2017 was they announced their plans weeks in advanced. Now it’s months in advanced with no filler content

And content is more than just a single story instance and open world event too. Almost like that schedule wasn't possible to keep up with any semblance of quality that you'd grow to expect in (((current year))) especially.

[Danikat.8537]

@"Hofulu.7325" and anyone else feeling the same, if you're refering to things Rubi said on Twitter then this might be relevant:

https://twitter.com/Rubi_/status/1168177964959223808

"Y'all: I'm going to put this out there in it's own tweet because some of you are having trouble with it: abuse, harassment, and toxicity are problems I care deeply about it. Constructive criticism, negative feedback, & frustration are different, healthy things."

"Look at my pinned tweet from 2016, right up to the things I said about toxicity a week ago. I get that you want to make a correlation to the things I said yesterday and our event, but the boring fact is I just didn't have time until yesterday."

"I'm talking about what happened with Apex. I'm talking about the nasty, abusive reactions I saw to AoC's recent announcement. I'm talking about some of the vile responses I saw about Sigma. And yeah, I'm talking about hate mail I've held in my hands."

"Don't equate feedback and abuse to make it sound like I'm talking about feedback. They are different. Don't undermine a years-long, industry-wide problem to make it sound like it's only one day. My industry friends and colleagues deserve better."

---

I've not been following the news in any detail but PAX has kicked off a lot of awareness of how certain people in the games industry treat those they're in positions of power over (often, but not always, women and minorities) and that's lead to a lot of discussion and repercussions and it seems that's what Rubi was talking about, nothing to do with the GW2 announcement.

[Hyper Cutter.9376]

@Gehenna.3625 said:For example, I think the announcement yesterday should have been the announcement of a new expansion. It wasn't.We've known for months that LS4 would be followed directly by LS5. And hey, look what the announcement was!

A bunch of people seemed to expect Anet to do a surprise expansion announcement, and it's completely baffling to me since we also already knew there wasn't going to be one in the immediate future.

[Linken.6345]

@kharmin.7683 said:

@Hofulu.7325 said:But Arenanet seems to be catering to those kinds of people, who just want something to do without having to pay for it.You do know that many players pay for things via gold -> gem conversion without having spent a single real dollar after their initial purchase?

The person who trade in gold for gems make it more profitable for people trading gems to gold so in a matter of speaking make people buy gems.All gems was once bought for real life cash.

[AlexxxDelta.1806]

@"Gehenna.3625" said:The game industry seems to be generally "confused" by what is and what isn't toxic. Toxicity is when you attack people with comments and threats with the purpose of hurting them. What happened is that because there is so much negativity that they have to deal with that they misuse the word "toxicity" and their reasoning seems to be that "as long as it hurts my feelings, it must be toxic". That is not the same thing however and is simply incorrect usage of the term. It's sad also because they are a big part of the reason why there is so much more toxicity these days and they don't seem to get that or perhaps they don't want to get that. With they I mean the game industry in general by the way.

So as long as you are not trying to attack them, particularly personally, with the intent of hurting them out of vengeance or spite, you are not toxic. It may hurt their feelings when you dislike what they do but that doesn't mean you're being toxic. They may experience it as such but that is not your fault.

So avoid direct insults to people. Use ArenaNet as a target rather than any one person. Avoid insults even then and don't let your anger speak more than your sense. It's hard sometimes but you should have the ability to put the brakes on even if occasionally you cross the line accidentally.

For example, I think the announcement yesterday should have been the announcement of a new expansion. It wasn't. I find that unfortunate and I wish it had been the announcement of an expansion because that's what I need to play this game actively again. So the next LS chapter doesn't really hold my interest. It might hurt the developers' feelings that I am not interested in what they are excited about presenting, but I'm the one spending money here so I will say so when they're not giving me what I want from this game. It's not what I want from them and I'm not required to be happy with this just cause they want that.

That's not toxic. However, if I'd come here and raged about how terrible they are and how girl X and guy Y are kitten etc. then it becomes toxic.

I won't say the next chapter sucks for example because I can't know that. I can say that I find that it sucks we're not getting an announcement for a next expansion. And if it happens more often that I don't get what I wish from this game, then yes, I will start feeling they don't care about me as a customer. Especially when I never get any answers, direct or indirect for my concerns.

It's ok to feel the way you do and express it. Just don't make it personal. There are people that work hard to create this content and there are people who make decisions about the direction of the game. It's the decision makers that I have issues with because I don't understand why they make certain decisions and because they don't really explain it and from what they do indicate I get the feeling it's more about what they want rather than what I want. That can upset me.

I've certainly been angry in the past and I still don't like everything that happens but I do try to have boundaries, because it's not about making it personal for me, but my frustrations such as they are, are indeed personal for me. It's just very frustrating when people in general are asking about something over and over again and they just stay silent on the topic. But I still shouldn't make it personal but I do feel I need to express my discontent because the sure way to make sure that nothing change is to stay silent. And that's no good for sure.

Hope that helps.

I seriously doubt it has anything to do with confusion. We are talking about professionals here. The occasional hate mail existed even before the peak of social media and pros in this industry have been in many rodeos. Now it's just more prominent.

But choosing to highlight the few rotten eggs in order to make the whole basket look spoiled is no accident made in confusion. It's called PR. Pointing at the few idiots who cant express themselves in a civilized manner allows you to deflect and misdirect, painting the entire body of negative feedback in the light that suits you the most. There are obviously some human emotions in play too (nobody likes being "yelled" at), but to me it's mostly business.

[nosleepdemon.1368]

@"ugrakarma.9416" said:next Episode trailer should have "Toxicity" from Britney as soundtrack.

And by Britney you of course mean System of a Down.

[zealex.9410]

It feels like rubi is ignoring imo legitimate critisism and concerns over the game's future or bundling it with the toxic reactions some ppl might have had.

Imo its equally damaging to be silent when your commu ity asks for you to talk with them.

[Blockhead Magee.3092]

@nosleepdemon.1368 said:Toxic toxicity is toxically toxic. Toxic toxicington, toxicity and toxicality. Toxic.

That word OP, I don't think you and many others think it means what it really means.

Pretty much how 'pug' turned from being 'pick up group' to being an individual who is not part of your group (guild, team, whatever).

As far as the game goes - typical Anet style to underewhelm at events they stage. Stick to the blog posts or youtube announcements.

[Acheron.4731]

I thought it was a pretty big cop out...I did not see enough evidence to support why the word toxic was used so lavishly.Was there a LOT of upset, utterly shocked and disappointed people making comments? absolutely. Did I notice enormous amounts of toxicity looking to cause harm to people in any way, shape, or fashion to elicit that type of reaction? Nope.It more or less seemed.....We worked hard, how dare you not like it. Now I am gonna blow it WAY out of proportion to make people feel bad...because I feel bad.The part you see posted above was an OOOPS, I might have gone too far...totally misread the entirety of the customer base, totally offended them, now i am gonna backtrack a little. I mean, we have all done something like that before so it is not hard to identify.These things, though, are hard to reel back in after they are out there. This is the world wide webernet.I am sure it is something she is reeling about now...but, lesson learned I am sure.

[Leo G.4501]

You know, this is all a two-way street.

This whole mentality that the developers and companies are your buddy and you get to chat and level with each other is false. A business isn't going to tell you that you're stupid or your opinion is foolish or that your creative suggestions are crap or that your input is invalid due to information they keep internal. They are there to create a product that will make money and while it's good for you to enjoy their product (it's pivotal, in fact), it is NOT required that they make YOU (each individual) happy. Now you might be thinking "Of course! I know they aren't there to make me happy!", but a lot of people are oblivious to that. And when you get enough people to amass the same message, that echo chamber reinforces their oblivious perception.

On the other side of the street, people that create fandoms and communities out of these people eventually lose control of these types of messages and thus the blame for the hate, the "toxicity", is thrown around either back onto the devs, the company or the fandom as a whole.

Even the OP seems to be under this delusion that your money has bought you some kind of ticket onto the "Nice people" boat and thus be privileged to have an elevated voice. Unfortunately, what you spent your money on, you've already been paid back for. There is no VIP spot for you. Any special treatment is out of charity of those with the resources and nothing more.

Also, OP, I'd suggest you go play some other games. Please. You get nothing by being "loyal" except missed opportunities. You can come back to GW2 later, but you're doing yourself no favors here, just causing yourself unneeded stress.

[Ashantara.8731]

@Hofulu.7325 said:Is it toxic to feel like I am not respected by Arenanet anymore?

Aren't you taking it way too personal? Not getting what you want (and I know the feeling) doesn't equal disrespect. I believe it's hard to look at your own product objectively and see what we, the players, see. It's hard to tell what could or should be changed about something you regard as a whole, namely your own creation.

[Bast.7253]

I'm sure there are a lot of toxic responses, but I also think it's an easy way to deflect from genuine concern and discontent.

I think it still should be worded carefully, and constructively, but criticism and consumer experience is what gets results, no matter the industry. People expressed their opinions on the Skyscale timegates, and it got resolved. You can't get resolution if you don't make your voice heard.

Sure, there were a lot of expectations for an expansion for this announcement, which were foolish to begin with as they said it was going straight into Living World, but I don't think it's that much of a stretch to have expected to hear more about expansion-like features during this announcement. Of course, "expansion-like features" according to our current pattern would have meant a new game-changing feature like mounts, gliding, guild halls, or elite specializations, but it could mean whatever they want it to mean moving forward. I guess their idea of that is instanced bounties as that's the only new feature we saw during the presentation. We really didn't get much info on those either.

I think the presentation was a wash, but not because of the unrealistic expectations it didn't meet, despite me personally desperately wanting new elites and weapon combinations, but because of the information they did present it was mostly just marketing of merchandise and advertising HOT's price change. The entirety of this presentation could have been done in separate, focused, blog posts. Why get people excited for a big announcement that's twice the length of the path of fire expansion announcement if all you're going to do is briefly reiterate that you're working on features that were announced months ago and show unfinished concept art of things that won't be in the game for another 3 months, and have a very small part to play in the content they are released in to begin with.

The only conclusion I can reach about this entire announcement is that it was the idea of people out of touch with the actual development on the game, and that the studio just had to cave in and do what they were told to do, put on somekind of show that gave them an excuse to push merchandise and expansion sales.

I can't imagine this event was for new players though. How would new players even know about this event if they weren't already a part of the community?

In any case, it is difficult to take this perception of toxicity seriously so much of this forum in particular is so heavily censored.

[Obtena.7952]

^^ Truth

People need to stop analyzing the game like they are choosing their last meal. If you like it, play it. If you don't, then stop. Everything that doesn't have anything to do with someone logging in and playing the game should be completely irrelevant to their choice to play it. In the end, you are a customer of a service and if you like that service, you patronize the company that provides it. We aren't clients where our personal needs are fulfilled to our exacting whims. That's not the kind of business this is.

[Acheron.4731]

While I agree with what Obtena is saying....I am not sure I want this to get swept under the rug either.I for one have decided not to play for a while. I am not bashing ANET...I just don't have anything that interests me for now and didn't see anything coming that interests me in the near future.However, if I do decide that I want to pick it up again later...I would like there to be something to come back to.The decline is real whether individuals like the direction of the game or not. I hope they address this in some way so I have peace of mind that it will still be around and perhaps peak my interest again later with those 'expansion like' features.