Norn, Kodan and Charr connection

[Tekoneiric.6817]

I was watching an announcement reaction video on YouTube this morning and an idea struck me that I've never seen speculated on. For the longest time there has been speculation on a connection between the Norn and Kodan. That the Kodan could be an offshoot of the Norn but in permanent (Polar)bear anthropomorphic form.

What if the Charr are offshoots of the Norn also but in a anthropomorphic form between Norn and an animal we haven't seen? Some kind of furious horned cat which had a spirit that taught them the form long ago and the first Charr made the form permanent. Their origin could have been lost or just not spoken about with any outsiders.

What could this mean for the story if it were true? It would make the sort of relationship between Rox and Braham more interesting. If they are the same basic species; they could possibly have a child if they ever acknowledged their feelings for each other. Their offspring might be a child that can change between Norn and Charr form.

[Ashantara.8731]

While I am torn between liking and disliking the idea of the races being somewhat related to each other, I would like to add: there is nothing going on between Braham and Rox other than a deep friendship and being like family for each other for such a long time.

[Tekoneiric.6817]

Is it possible the Tengu are also an offshoot of the Norn as well but in an permanent avian form?

[Tekoneiric.6817]

@Ashantara.8731 said:While I am torn between liking and disliking the idea of the races being somewhat related to each other, I would like to add: there is nothing going on between Braham and Rox other than a deep friendship and being like family for each other for such a long time.

They could be keeping each other at arm's length so to speak because they think it wouldn't work out because of the differences but if the story were to some how confirm that Norn and Charr are connected would that change the dynamic between them?

[Ashantara.8731]

Ugh, it's like implying a romantic relationship between brother and sister. :s

[Tekoneiric.6817]

I was thinking that if the Kodan, Charr and Tengu are offshoots of the Norn that stay in their respective forms; it would be ironic if they each had the ability to Norn form for short periods of time like the Norn can change to anthropomorphic animal form for limited amounts of time. That it was the trade off for their ancestors committing to a specific animal form permanently.

[Palador.2170]

@"Tekoneiric.6817" said:

They could be keeping each other at arm's length so to speak because they think it wouldn't work out because of the differences but if the story were to some how confirm that Norn and Charr are connected would that change the dynamic between them?

Reading between the lines from what's said in LS4-5 and 4-6, I think any closeness between Rox and Braham is over. At Braham's darkest moments, Rox was there for him and he treated her like crap. Then when Rox needed someone, he wasn't there for her but Boticca (of the Olmakhan) was. She's going with the Olmakhan, and leaving Braham to deal with his own issues. I think she tells him sometime shortly before the end of LS 4-6, and that's why he seems a bit "off" at the very end.

Now, they could easily add another charr/norn pair of friends into the story. I mean, hell, if you play a norn and went with the "got blackout drunk" storyline, you have a charr friend already. If they want to explore charr/norn relations to any depth, I think they'll need some new characters for it anyway.

[Kalavier.1097]

@Tekoneiric.6817 said:I was watching an announcement reaction video on YouTube this morning and an idea struck me that I've never seen speculated on. For the longest time there has been speculation on a connection between the Norn and Kodan. That the Kodan could be an offshoot of the Norn but in permanent (Polar)bear anthropomorphic form.

What if the Charr are offshoots of the Norn also but in a anthropomorphic form between Norn and an animal we haven't seen? Some kind of furious horned cat which had a spirit that taught them the form long ago and the first Charr made the form permanent. Their origin could have been lost or just not spoken about with any outsiders.

What could this mean for the story if it were true? It would make the sort of relationship between Rox and Braham more interesting. If they are the same basic species; they could possibly have a child if they ever acknowledged their feelings for each other. Their offspring might be a child that can change between Norn and Charr form.

@Tekoneiric.6817 said:Is it possible the Tengu are also an offshoot of the Norn as well but in an permanent avian form?

The way the story has been, alongside rumors, it's more of "The Norn are thought to be a lost tribe of Kodan, who regressed/turned into their current form."

The charr and Tengu can't be related to the norn. It'd make a lot of weird questions and plot holes (Such as the very different sizes of the three races), but it'd also just open a pandora's box of insanity.

If the Tengu are "Totally bird-form Norn" and the Kodan are "totally bear-form norn." and the charr are "Totally cat-form norn." Then I can easily extend that and start going "Well I guess Hylek are frog-form norn." and such.

Not to mention the fact Anet has specifically and completely shot down the idea of any half-breed existing in GW2. So a charr and a Norn can't have babies. A Kodan and a norn can't have babies.

[Tekoneiric.6817]

@"Kalavier.1097" said:

The way the story has been, alongside rumors, it's more of "The Norn are thought to be a lost tribe of Kodan, who regressed/turned into their current form."

The charr and Tengu can't be related to the norn. It'd make a lot of weird questions and plot holes (Such as the very different sizes of the three races), but it'd also just open a pandora's box of insanity.

If the Tengu are "Totally bird-form Norn" and the Kodan are "totally bear-form norn." and the charr are "Totally cat-form norn." Then I can easily extend that and start going "Well I guess Hylek are frog-form norn." and such.

Not to mention the fact Anet has specifically and completely shot down the idea of any half-breed existing in GW2. So a charr and a Norn can't have babies. A Kodan and a norn can't have babies.

The transformation could be so complete as to prevent crossbreeding. The various races mentioned splitting of from Norns would certainly explain why there are so many anthropomorphic forms. They could have split off so far back that the various races don't remember.

If you have a Norn character, try standing next to a Charr and go into snow leopard form, Kodan and go into bear form then Tengu and go into raven form. You'll see how they look related.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

@Tekoneiric.6817 said:

@"Kalavier.1097" said:

The way the story has been, alongside rumors, it's more of "The Norn are thought to be a lost tribe of Kodan, who regressed/turned into their current form."

The charr and Tengu can't be related to the norn. It'd make a lot of weird questions and plot holes (Such as the very different sizes of the three races), but it'd also just open a pandora's box of insanity.

If the Tengu are "Totally bird-form Norn" and the Kodan are "totally bear-form norn." and the charr are "Totally cat-form norn." Then I can easily extend that and start going "Well I guess Hylek are frog-form norn." and such.

Not to mention the fact Anet has specifically and completely shot down the idea of any half-breed existing in GW2. So a charr and a Norn can't have babies. A Kodan and a norn can't have babies.

The transformation could be so complete as to prevent crossbreeding. The various races mentioned splitting of from Norns would certainly explain why there are so many anthropomorphic forms. They could have split off so far back that the various races don't remember.

If you have a Norn character, try standing next to a Charr and go into snow leopard form, Kodan and go into bear form then Tengu and go into raven form. You'll see how they look related.

Convergent evolution. In the same way bats and birds are not related to each other, bipedal/sentient Tyrian races do not have to be. It's also important to remember that magic can mutate life. For example exposing a cactus to excessive magic might give it sentience but that does make it a Choya. Even if they are related to each other it does not mean they descended from one another.

That being said I do believe Norn and Kodan are distantly related because the stories and geography lend themselves to it.

[Kalavier.1097]

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Tekoneiric.6817 said:

@"Kalavier.1097" said:

The way the story has been, alongside rumors, it's more of "The Norn are thought to be a lost tribe of Kodan, who regressed/turned into their current form."

The charr and Tengu can't be related to the norn. It'd make a lot of weird questions and plot holes (Such as the very different sizes of the three races), but it'd also just open a pandora's box of insanity.

If the Tengu are "Totally bird-form Norn" and the Kodan are "totally bear-form norn." and the charr are "Totally cat-form norn." Then I can easily extend that and start going "Well I guess Hylek are frog-form norn." and such.

Not to mention the fact Anet has specifically and completely shot down the idea of any half-breed existing in GW2. So a charr and a Norn can't have babies. A Kodan and a norn can't have babies.

The transformation could be so complete as to prevent crossbreeding. The various races mentioned splitting of from Norns would certainly explain why there are so many anthropomorphic forms. They could have split off so far back that the various races don't remember.

If you have a Norn character, try standing next to a Charr and go into snow leopard form, Kodan and go into bear form then Tengu and go into raven form. You'll see how they look related.

Convergent evolution. In the same way bats and birds are not related to each other, bipedal/sentient Tyrian races do not have to be. It's also important to remember that magic can mutate life. For example exposing a cactus to excessive magic might give it sentience but that does make it a Choya. Even if they are related to each other it does not mean they descended from one another.

That being said I do believe Norn and Kodan are distantly related because the stories and geography lend themselves to it.

The Kodan have stories of the previous dragon rise, and that one tribe who lost it's voice was lead south by their claw to hunt for food during the dragonstorm. They were never seen again. The Kodan believe the Norn to be descended from this lost tribe, having lost their spiritual way and regressed to a more primal state.

So if anything, the Kodan and Norn sharing a common ancestry is the one that can somewhat make sense. Tengu and Charr not so much.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Tekoneiric.6817 said:That the Kodan could be an offshoot of the Norn but in permanent (Polar)bear anthropomorphic form.

What if the Charr are offshoots of the Norn also but in a anthropomorphic form between Norn and an animal we haven't seen?

Norn are an offshoot of kodan, or so the ancient kodan race claims. This seems fairly reasonable to believe because the kodan were around during the previous dragonrise, and there's no evidence that the norn were.

However, similar to the kodan, the charr were around during the previous dragonrise too.

The original starting places of the charr is also very far from either norn or kodan, as their original homeland lies to the east of the Blazeridge (thus east of Ascalon and the "Blood Legion Homelands"). This would put the norn and kodan somewhat close to each other, being in the same climate though there is still quite some distance, while the charr and norn are not only a fair distance away, but further than norn and kodan, and in different climates as well.

That said, it's unlikely, imo, that the kodan and norn are actually related (and we'll learn the truth this season no doubt); the reason I say this is because GW1 stressed that the shapeshifting thing was a gift provided by the Spirits of the Wild, and not an innate, natural ability. Shapeshifting is spiritual magic, not biology.

It would make the sort of relationship between Rox and Braham more interesting. If they are the same basic species; they could possibly have a child if they ever acknowledged their feelings for each other. Their offspring might be a child that can change between Norn and Charr form.

They aren't. It got confirmed by devs years ago that none of the five player species are close enough to produce offspring with each other.

@Tekoneiric.6817 said:Is it possible the Tengu are also an offshoot of the Norn as well but in an permanent avian form?

Tengu are even further separated from the norn than the charr, and also hold suggestions of being around since the previous dragonrise.

@Tekoneiric.6817 said:

@"Ashantara.8731" said:While I am torn between liking and disliking the idea of the races being somewhat related to each other, I would like to add: there is nothing going on between Braham and Rox other than a deep friendship and being like family for each other for such a long time.

They could be keeping each other at arm's length so to speak because they think it wouldn't work out because of the differences but if the story were to some how confirm that Norn and Charr are connected would that change the dynamic between them?

No, it wouldn't. They're friends, not lovers.

Besides, the idea of inter-racial relationships is not foreign to Tyrians. Such relationships, while uncommon, are accepted just as LGBT+ individuals and relationships are. Such relationships will just never produce offspring. And since charr don't care about relationships, and norn's view of relationships are to look for "equals", everything is in place for Rox and Braham to have gotten into a relationship if they had the interest.

But they're friends, almost like siblings, not lovers. Same with Rytlock and Logan, despite all the jokes of gay furry fanfictions.

@"Palador.2170" said:Then when Rox needed someone, he wasn't there for her but Boticca (of the Olmakhan) was.

When did she need someone in S4? Nothing happened to Rox this season beyond discovering that there's a community of charr who do not insult and hate on a member of their society without a warband, something Rox had struggled with for years which Braham was there for her for, repeatedly (mostly in late Season 1, but also in Season 2).

It was more that Rox helped Braham, and while he treated her poorly (at least that one time), she was understanding and didn't hate him for it. And when Braham had coped with his issues, she simultaneously met a group of "her people" that was everything she ever asked for in life, so she slowly began to become more and more intoxicated with the idea of joining them while working as a liaison between the Olmakhan and the Elonian / Pact forces.

[Palador.2170]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:When did she need someone in S4? Nothing happened to Rox this season beyond discovering that there's a community of charr who do not insult and hate on a member of their society without a warband, something Rox had struggled with for years which Braham was there for her for, repeatedly (mostly in late Season 1, but also in Season 2).

It was more that Rox helped Braham, and while he treated her poorly (at least that one time), she was understanding and didn't hate him for it. And when Braham had coped with his issues, she simultaneously met a group of "her people" that was everything she ever asked for in life, so she slowly began to become more and more intoxicated with the idea of joining them while working as a liaison between the Olmakhan and the Elonian / Pact forces.

Well, the first time was when she went back into Maguma, ALONE, to find Garm. (Back in Season 3.)

Second, there was when she had to choose between staying with Braham to protect him, or going with the rest of the Commander's group. This was her new warband/family, and she had to leave them to watch over just one. And yes, this is when he really treated her awful. But it's important to remember that it wasn't just the treatment, it was the treatment while feeling like she had abandoned the others for his sake.

Third, Braham recruits a bunch of norn for his own "Destiny's Edge". No mention is made of anything other than norn. Rox would have been an outsider to this group, especially with how Braham had been treating her. We didn't get to see it, but this may have been her lowest point since we met her. It's shortly after all that falls apart that she's introduced to the Olmakhan, so her reaction to them is entirely understandable.

Finally, we see in LS 4-6 a moment where Rox and Boticca were headed to their camp through a tunnel-like area. Kralk starts to shift, and rocks fall in a few places. Rox has a panic attack (a cave-in is what killed her warband), and it's Boticca that's there to help her through it. This is where we get to see that closeness and faith between the two of them, where before Rox might have called out for Braham.

It's worth noting that Braham didn't really start to work on his own issues until after the Olmakhan had entered the picture. By that point, the harm was done.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"Palador.2170" said:Well, the first time was when she went back into Maguma, ALONE, to find Garm. (Back in Season 3.)

Was she alone, though? Sure, she wasn't with Braham - who was busy preparing a funeral (so, you know, he had a legitimate reason to not be with Rox at the time)- but nothing says she was alone in the Maguuma, let alone that Braham had refused to assist her (e.g., she could have gone without notice). There's likely a ton of Pact soldiers remaining in the Maguuma to help the Itzel, Exalted, and Nuhoch. I mean, there was the Pact Squad that went to Spirit Vale area post-Mordremoth's death, so why not a bit deeper into the jungle too, especially since Rata Sum asura had set up base in Rata Novus.

Second, there was when she had to choose between staying with Braham to protect him, or going with the rest of the Commander's group. This was her new warband/family, and she had to leave them to watch over just one. And yes, this is when he really treated her awful. But it's important to remember that it wasn't just the treatment, it was the treatment while feeling like she had abandoned the others for his sake.

Again, she wasn't alone or in need of anything, and didn't the Commander ask her to watch over Braham specifically because he was in a bad spot? And, in all honesty, how can we so thoroughly say he treated her poorly? Yes, there was the incident with her being frozen, but other than that, there's zero sign of him being rude to Rox in that short interaction we have with them both together, and when they show up at the beginning of Season 4, he's nice to Rox while rude to the Commander.

One incident doesn't define how he acted the entire time we don't see him.

Third, Braham recruits a bunch of norn for his own "Destiny's Edge". No mention is made of anything other than norn. Rox would have been an outsider to this group, especially with how Braham had been treating her. We didn't get to see it, but this may have been her lowest point since we met her. It's shortly after all that falls apart that she's introduced to the Olmakhan, so her reaction to them is entirely understandable.

You're taking a bunch of unknowns and painting the blackest picture with it. We know nothing of these norn, and on top of that, not only is Rox a famous member of a famous guild that killed an Elder Dragon by this point (which means she likely got a ton of respect from these mystery norn), but thgere's also the fact that charr and norn have a long standing friendly relation. So just because she was the sole non-norn, doesn't mean she was particularly left out. And again regarding Braham's treatment of Rox, throughout the few times we see them together in early S4 and in S3, the only time Braham was "rude" was when Rox got frozen, because Braham was so focused on the scroll.

Now while that's bad treatment, it is a far cry from Braham "treating her awful". It's not like he was abusive to her or anything. At worst, he was tunnelvisioned on his current objective. But as I said, when we run into them during Fahranur, Braham treats Rox like normal.

Finally, we see in LS 4-6 a moment where Rox and Boticca were headed to their camp through a tunnel-like area. Kralk starts to shift, and rocks fall in a few places. Rox has a panic attack (a cave-in is what killed her warband), and it's Boticca that's there to help her through it. This is where we get to see that closeness and faith between the two of them, where before Rox might have called out for Braham.

This is a bullshit argument. Everyone had their roles, and Rox volunteered to go with the Olmakhan here while Braham was acting as Taimi's assistant. Rox didn't call out for anyone either - yes, she has a panic attack, and yes, a friend is there to help her - but if Braham was there he'd have done the same. Braham isn't to be blamed for doing a different task that was needed to be done.

It's worth noting that Braham didn't really start to work on his own issues until after the Olmakhan had entered the picture. By that point, the harm was done.This is really more just lazy ArenaNet writing where there seems to be zero progress in the world's stories until we, the Commander, get involved.

That said, most of Braham's issues were with the Commander specifically, and you can't really work out issues with a friend you began to hate if you don't interact with them. When Braham shows up in Fahranur, the first words he says is "Watch your heads!" as he leaped in to procted people he didn't recognize at the moment (too chaotic to focus on faces). He even sounds like his normal self in that line, only adapting a rude tone once he sees the Commander.

Throughout that mission and into Episode 2, when he addresses others, including Rox, he again has his normal tone, only turning rude when the topic is about the Commander, or when talking towards the Commander, until they begin to talk things out.

TL;DRBraham wasn't abusive towards Rox. He just suffered tunnel vision in that one instance that put Rox in danger. The only time he's rude through Season 3 and 4 before making up with the Commander, is when the Commander is either the person he's talking to, or the subject of the discussion.

Most of the "times Rox needed someone" she... didn't need someone, or Braham had a legitimate reason to not be with her at that very specific moment. And I think you exaggerate her isolation in a group of norn just because she's non-norn, as charr would be the best non-norn to be in such a group (besides kodan).

[Palador.2170]

Hummm... Maybe you're right and I've read too much into it. My dislike for Braham might have been tempting me to see things in an overly negative light.

But we've gotten off topic. The final result is that Rox is likely going with the Olmakhan, and won't be around Braham any more. IF they want to explore any kind of norn/charr relationship dynamic, they'll need to replace Rox at the very least.