Potential future Necro changes

[EremiteAngel.9765]

Latest updates:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/86662/future-potential-wvw-centric-balance-changes-september-6th-2019#latest

@"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said:Greetings again all,

Thanks for the feedback regarding the proposed changes posted last week.

Below you'll find a set of changes we're looking at which is WvW-centric, as well as a few modifications to some of the changes from the last thread. With these changes the objective is to bring the dominant builds and compositions into line and offer more build diversity to the existing meta. Because there's been some confusion, we want to clarify that we're continuing to balance for other game types, including (as some of you guessed) significant changes to the warrior's Tactics line as well as the necromancer's Death Magic line, ranger sword changes and more.

As before, this isn't the full set of changes we're preparing and this is not a call for general profession feedback.Here are a few questions to think about while looking over the potential changes:

• Would your gameplay change as a result? How?
• Do you feel these changes would improve or worsen the state of the game?
• Are you looking forward to these potential changes? Why?
• What are your concerns and the consequences you expect with this set of changes?

Here is what we're looking at. Previously posted and unchanged items are italicized at the bottom of each profession's section so that it should be easier to focus on the new and changed parts of this set of changes:

Items

• Superior Rune of Antitoxin: Change it so that instead of increasing outgoing condition cleanses by one it instead increases incoming condition cleanses by one, thus only affecting the wielder, but allowing it to scale up with external cleanses.

Necromancer

• Oppressive Collapse: This skill will require line of sight on the activation.
• Sand Cascade: Reduce the base barrier granted by this skill by 33% in WvW & PvP, increase the healing power contribution by 20%, as the healing coefficient is already pretty strong.
• Sand Flare: Reduce the base barrier granted by this skill by 25% in WvW, increase the healing power contribution by 33%.
• Desert Shroud: Increase the base barrier granted by this skill by 10%, increase the healing power contribution by 15% and reduce the damage inflicted by this ability by 20% in WvW.
• Sand Savant: We've wanted to address the target cap issue with this trait in WvW for a while, however it is an incredibly gnarly problem because this is a large functional change that would need to be preserved between game modes. This was why the cooldown split was made on this trait originally. We hear you that the trait is an issue and we're working on it. This is a tough case to crack in a manner that does not leave one mode suffering due to the changes made for another.
• Feast of Corruption: Reduce damage by 20% in PvP & WvW. The existing split from PvP of corrupting 2 boons is brought to WvW. This ability continues to corrupt 3 boons in PvE.
• Devouring Darkness: Reduce damage by 20% in PvP & WvW. The existing split from PvP of corrupting 2 boons is brought to WvW. This ability continues to corrupt 3 boons in PvE.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

they look fine.

[Xxnecroxx.4039]

so they want to nerf necro in the gamemodes it finds viable use? they could just remove the profession at this point, it will still be fine in WvW/pvp just because of boon corrupt and that is IT. but since it is overall horrible in PVE, and will now only be meh in the other 2 gamemode, why even play necro anymore?

[EremiteAngel.9765]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:they look fine.

I hope they give us something back though if they were to reduce our OPness in those areas.The nerfs might be fine for large group fights but solo/small scale is going to become even weaker for us.

Like if they nerf our barriers, give us more solo/small scale survivability with an improved portal...maybe 1200 range...instant cast...or reduce cast time on trail of anguish...

[Dadnir.5038]

• Would your gameplay change as a result?

This won't change the gameplay

• Do you feel these changes would improve or worsen the state of the game?

If anything these changes will just make life harder for solo scourge.

• Are you looking forward to these potential changes?

Nope.

• What are your concerns with this set of changes?

These changes don't address the underlying issue, it will just make zergs frailer while the scourge's solo survivability will plumet.

• What consequences do you expect would come from these changes?

Scourges will complain that they are crap at everything: damage, support and survivability while other professions will complain that scourge deal to much damage in zerg because to compensate the scourge meta build will focus more on damage.

The outcome of such changes is obvious, players already complain that there is to much aoe damage why would they stop complaining when the level of damage will obviously go up?

Edit: Is it really that difficult to just remove the F1 proc on F2, F3 and F4? Is it that difficult to rework F5 into a support/defensive skill instead of keeping it into a dps skill? The scourge is dominant in WvW because it give huge amount of support while doing a huge amount of damage. Remove the damage not the support!

[Axl.8924]

Im going to agree with xxxnecro and say these nerfs are unwarranted and kill viability of necro, especially since the issue is boons.

[Nimon.7840]

I do think that's a completely wrong approach to nerfing scourge.If you nerf base values of barriers, make them scale much harder with healing power.

But I don't think that barriers are the problem for scourge. The aoe- spam is much more a problem

[XECOR.2814]

Rework staff away from aoe. Most spammy weapon in game.

[Dadnir.5038]

@Nimon.7840 said:I do think that's a completely wrong approach to nerfing scourge.If you nerf base values of barriers, make them scale much harder with healing power.

But I don't think that barriers are the problem for scourge. The aoe- spam is much more a problem

I do agree, however, ANet won't change barrier scaling because it affect more professions than just scourge which mean that such change could easily make or break the elementalist or the scrapper as a consequence.

The scourge's aoe spam isn't much of an issue, it's the fact that those aoe are doing everything at the same time which is an issue. Scourge need to be the support e-spec of the necromancer, it's F skills don't need to deal direct damage, condition damage, support, defense and control all at the same time. I mean, who in it's right mind would think that skills that do all of that in an aoe are balanced and good for the game?

[Nimon.7840]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:I do think that's a completely wrong approach to nerfing scourge.If you nerf base values of barriers, make them scale much harder with healing power.

But I don't think that barriers are the problem for scourge. The aoe- spam is much more a problem

I do agree, however, ANet won't change barrier scaling because it affect more professions than just scourge which mean that such change could easily make or break the elementalist or the scrapper as a consequence.

You don't need to change barrier scaling overall, just the healing power coefficients of f3 and scourge healskill

The scourge's aoe spam isn't much of an issue, it's the fact that those aoe are doing everything at the same time which is an issue. Scourge need to be the support e-spec of the necromancer, it's F skills don't need to deal direct damage, condition damage, support, defense and control all at the same time. I mean, who in it's right mind would think that skills that do all of that in an aoe are balanced and good for the game?

And there's other skills that are far more busted. Like dolyak stance or firebrand tomes

[dceptaconroy.7928]

Classes that spew boons. I'll leave that right there.

[Kiroshima.8497]

Why are we nerfing necro scepter nd not scourge's damage? If anything barrier healing power scaling should be buffed on scourge.

Core Necro should be the mixed range damage dealer (trait to adjust). Make Shroud 4 and Shroud 5 ranged, centered on the target, but casts on self with no target. Add aoe to Doom, and make Life Blast aoe with a trait, but spends more life force.

Reaper should be the melee specialist (heavy condi or power options, make deathly chill inflict 1 torment OR 2 bleeds)

Scourge the support specialist and boon corruptor.

First, remove all damage from F1. Adjust to grant barrier on placement.Increase the healing ratio and nerf the base values of barrier.

Punishments are true corruptions, no longer inflict torment and cripple.

F2 converts 1 condition into barrier.F3 is fine.
F4 grants barrier to nearby allies per enemy feared (check for stab first, applied in 1 chunk to avoid barrier traits multi procing).F5 no longer inflicts torment nor damage, instead turns into a 2nd skill that consumes all barrier on the necro for damage and burning. The more barrier you have, the more damage and burning stacks. F5-1 cooldown reduced, F5-2 cooldown should be like 45.

As for traits, they will focus on raw barrier, boon rip and burning, or on barrier utility.

Abrasive grit: F3 grants protection and retaliation.Fell Beacon: Torch increases concentration and expertise instead. Torch skills grant barrier to allies in their aoe.Nourishing Ashes: Heal allies when their barrier runs out. No longer grants life force.Desert Empowerment: F2 converts an additional condition into barrier. Whenever you cleanse yourself or allies, grant might to them. (consume conditions could give you all the might).Sadistic Searing: Gain life force and inflict burning whenever you WOULD corrupt boons on enemies (enemies with no boons wouldbe burned still). Punishment cd still reduced.Herald of Sorrow: Granting barrier to allies (not self) reduces CD of f5-2 by 1 second. f5-2 only removes 50% of the necro's barrier.Sand Savant unchanged, no longer necessary since damage has been removed at base.Demonic Lore: Feed from Corruption goes here, additionally corrupt an additional boon whenever you corrupt or remove boons.Feed From Corruption: Replaced with a new effect called Sand Dispersion. Skills that do not pulse barrier grant stability and aegis.

[Hesacon.8735]

A sand flare nerf would be the only one of these I care about, and even then I could live with it as I only run it in group comps.

[Xxnecroxx.4039]

@Axl.8924 said:Im going to agree with xxxnecro and say these nerfs are unwarranted and kill viability of necro, especially since the issue is boons.

viability was already lacking sorely in PVE, guess they want it to start lacking in all gamemodes. SIGH

[Tinker.6924]

As someone who hasn't done pvp of any sort yet, but plays scourge is his favorite in pve, it sort of sucks to know that once I get around to doing some pvp that I would be in the hole defensively. Scourge doesn't have an extensive defensive toolkit: shields and some damage reduction abilities. I can understand that Anet wants to limit giving the shields to other characters that do have extensive defensive toolkits making them supermen but I think this is the wrong approach.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

Well, at least we know that Dark Path pathing is working as intended.

[Axl.8924]

They should nerf boons nerf dmg on scourge and make it a support and let us make core necro condi again #makenecrogreatagain.

Can a member of ANET please come here and explain their vision for necromancer? please? tell us what we are supposed to do in WVW if we are supposed to play because you are killing us in every mode. We are already barely viable in pve and now you nerf us into the ground.

[dceptaconroy.7928]

A guy wears a blouse to the Announcement, and now more of this. I'm for 1 glad theres no additional Elite. They havent even sorted core out yet. Somethings in the water over there, stuffs gone loco.

[Xxnecroxx.4039]

@Axl.8924 said:They should nerf boons nerf dmg on scourge and make it a support and let us make core necro condi again #makenecrogreatagain.

Can a member of ANET please come here and explain their vision for necromancer? please? tell us what we are supposed to do in WVW if we are supposed to play because you are killing us in every mode. We are already barely viable in pve and now you nerf us into the ground.

their vision of necro is to make it so bad that no one will play it anymore so they can just remove it without anyone noticing

[Xxnecroxx.4039]

@dceptaconroy.7928 said:A guy wears a blouse to the Announcement, and now more of this. I'm for 1 glad theres no additional Elite. They havent even sorted core out yet. Somethings in the water over there, stuffs gone loco.

a new elite would be necros only chance to keep viability

[dceptaconroy.7928]

Yeah, but how about they fix what they've already got. I would put the farm up guaranteeing the new Elite would be any less busted.

[Nimon.7840]

@Axl.8924 said:They should nerf boons nerf dmg on scourge and make it a support and let us make core necro condi again #makenecrogreatagain.

Can a member of ANET please come here and explain their vision for necromancer? please? tell us what we are supposed to do in WVW if we are supposed to play because you are killing us in every mode. We are already barely viable in pve and now you nerf us into the ground.

Tbh.The proposed changes will change absolutely nothing about wvw meta

But yes, scourge already kinda falls off.I played wvw this weekend for quite a bit.And top 5 places in dmg done were always eles and revs.Then me(as reaper) and another scourge, then some revs.

What the proposed will changes do:Nerf solo scourges or scourges in very small groupsNot make scourge the support, but make it purely dmg - which in my opinion is the wrong approach to the problem as well as not the intention behind scourge.

And if its intended, that scourge is purely for dmg, then it needs some huge buffs for pve

[Zero.3871]

i think its always the same point. anet is generally nerfing traits/skills that due to necromancer get weaker in every aspect of the game OR often in the past nerfs happen that make him weaker in solo play/pve without touching him in big group fights. the art to balance necro is to understand what makes him strong in different areas.

the main reason for scourge strenghts in zerg fights in sand savant that increase the number of targets i can fastly hit (with 1 big shade) to 5 instead of 3. it is an increase of 66% in dmg. also it increase the range from 900 to 1200.

if anet would just rework sand savant to create a trait that supports barrier apply would take out a lot of direct dmg because of number decrease and indirect dmg because of less range/less opportunity to hit.

recreating f3 and sand flare to give teammates just half barrier of what necro gets himself and the new sand savant trait can increase teammate barrier back to 100%.in that way, on the same build like before you just would have flat number (=dmg) reduction and range reduction for zergfights, while in small scale you barely played with big shades so necros didnt get touched there.. anet should never nerf boon corrupt since boon corrupt already got nerfed a tons of times, WHILE it is necros identity (and anet ALSO denies to nerf mirages dodge invul because it is the identity of mirage).

but past showed often enough, anet discuss some changes, but finally, whatever people conclude about the suggested changes, anet never changed one of their ideas. i think changes are done and we have to handle it.

but funny thing is, i swear everyone people will just stack scourge EVEN more in wvw to compensate the nerfes because you absolutely NEED a counter to the absurd boon spam of FB and rev

[Virtuality.8351]

Necromancer

• Sand Cascade: Reduce the barrier granted by this skill by 33% in WvW & PvP.
• Sand Flare: Reduced the barrier granted by this skill by 25% in WvW.

This will give pugs a better change to fight against organized groups. I would suggest lowering the Base Healing/Barrier Value even further and increasing the Healing Power Coefficient instead, to reduce the group sustenance of Power Scourge while retain a spot for dedicated Support/Healing/Screening Scourge, which is nowadays still not much seen.

[Dadnir.5038]

@"Zero.3871" said:if anet would just rework sand savant to create a trait that supports barrier apply would take out a lot of direct dmg because of number decrease and indirect dmg because of less range/less opportunity to hit.

You're wrong sand savant have nothing to do with the problem. Sand savant is just "QoL". The issue isn't the opportunity to hit, it's the fact that each hit support, control, defend and damage at the same time. Core traits overload shroud#1 with effects and scourge's F skills all proc shroud#1, that's where the issue lie. There is no issue with a skill that convert condition into boon whatever it's radius and whether it hit 5 or 10 targets, but there is an issue if this same skill additionnally deal damage, apply both multiple damaging conditions and control condition, grant might to the caster... etc.

Sand savant's coverage isn't an issue, nerfing/changing it won't have any positive changes on scourge and how it is perceived by other players. Scourge's players might try to argue that they need to do more things to achieve their results without sand savant, but in the end with or without sand savant the scourge will still be able to overload the same number of players with conditions, damages, control effect all while supporting their allies.

And the worst part of changing/removing sand savant is that by doing so, you create a need for more scourges in the zerg because you make scourge defensively less performant while on the move.

Just remove the F1 proc on other shade skills and rework F5 into a non damaging skill and absolutely nobody is going to care about sand savant's coverage. By doing this you could even remove the big orange circle and absolutely nobody would protest. There is a need to address the issue not the thing that carry the issue, you don't cure a sickness by killing the person who's sick but by treating him.