How to fix the WvW meta with two changes

[briggah.7910]

how to fix wvw in 1 easy step. revert all changes since Heart of Thorns

[RisenHowl.2419]

@SkyShroud.2865 said:I don't see how your changes shift the numbers advantage balancing to coordinated teamplay advantage.I believe plenty quit simply because the balance is shifted from coordinate teamplay to simply numbers and individual skills. Such balance simply means just having higher numbers with some sense of rotations will exponentially increase the victory rate. In other words, the balance encourage numbers and more numbers.A real fix to the meta would be trying to emphases coordinate teamplay once again like in core.

It solves carpet bombing and easy queue-wide cleansing. Both changes favor coordinated group play since people will have to play something other than faceroll scourge to be efficient as damage dealers while actually watching their party so they don't waste cleanses.

removing 10 target shades opens up melee ball comps again since they lose a large portion of area denial. You can't melee ball if you're uncoordinated :>

[Zikory.6871]

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@SkyShroud.2865 said:I don't see how your changes shift the numbers advantage balancing to coordinated teamplay advantage.I believe plenty quit simply because the balance is shifted from coordinate teamplay to simply numbers and individual skills. Such balance simply means just having higher numbers with some sense of rotations will exponentially increase the victory rate. In other words, the balance encourage numbers and more numbers.A real fix to the meta would be trying to emphases coordinate teamplay once again like in core.

It solves carpet bombing and easy queue-wide cleansing. Both changes favor coordinated group play since people will have to play something other than faceroll scourge to be efficient as damage dealers while actually watching their party so they don't waste cleanses.

removing 10 target shades opens up melee ball comps again since they lose a large portion of area denial. You can't melee ball if you're uncoordinated :>

Removing 10 target shades could promote more melee but it could also result in stacking revs and back to pirate ship.

The issue with scourge is there is no viable replacement for boon denial. As long as other classes, Guard/Herald/scrapper can pump out boons, scourge is irreplaceable. Scourge needs to be addressed but so does boon application, one without the other will either shift to more scourges per squad or back to a meta similar to the boon share meta.

Tone down Scourge and Firebrand or give us viable alternatives.

[DeceiverX.8361]

Unfortunately, no matter how game-breaking, ANet NEVER nerfs gear, even when it's problematic.

Otherwise we'd have seen boon/condition duration and Dire nerfed/removed years ago where people were killing others while not using weapons due to the sheer sustain : damage ratios.

[Acyk.9671]

deleted

Edited April 3, 2022 by Acyk.9671

[Aenaos.8160]

Let's see.Without that trait a Scourge has to manage and cast 3 different fields.This adds time and complexity restrains on the class.The field around the Scourge it self is still too much,it should be at least that when there is an active Shade cast,the auto Shade around the player is deactivated.Now enter Sand Savant.Instant access to everything.All the buffs related to Shades.No build up time.No managing of fields.Well that's the very definition of "balance" in PvP related content isn't it?Taking away complexity and adding efficiency.Or maybe not?I'm a bit confused and it seems I'm not the only one.All is Vain.

[Acyk.9671]

deleted

Edited April 3, 2022 by Acyk.9671

[SkyShroud.2865]

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@SkyShroud.2865 said:I don't see how your changes shift the numbers advantage balancing to coordinated teamplay advantage.I believe plenty quit simply because the balance is shifted from coordinate teamplay to simply numbers and individual skills. Such balance simply means just having higher numbers with some sense of rotations will exponentially increase the victory rate. In other words, the balance encourage numbers and more numbers.A real fix to the meta would be trying to emphases coordinate teamplay once again like in core.

It solves carpet bombing and easy queue-wide cleansing. Both changes favor coordinated group play since people will have to play something other than faceroll scourge to be efficient as damage dealers while actually watching their party so they don't waste cleanses.

removing 10 target shades opens up melee ball comps again since they lose a large portion of area denial. You can't melee ball if you're uncoordinated :>

You can't melee ball either if they throw waves of sb at you.

[RisenHowl.2419]

@SkyShroud.2865 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@SkyShroud.2865 said:I don't see how your changes shift the numbers advantage balancing to coordinated teamplay advantage.I believe plenty quit simply because the balance is shifted from coordinate teamplay to simply numbers and individual skills. Such balance simply means just having higher numbers with some sense of rotations will exponentially increase the victory rate. In other words, the balance encourage numbers and more numbers.A real fix to the meta would be trying to emphases coordinate teamplay once again like in core.

It solves carpet bombing and easy queue-wide cleansing. Both changes favor coordinated group play since people will have to play something other than faceroll scourge to be efficient as damage dealers while actually watching their party so they don't waste cleanses.

removing 10 target shades opens up melee ball comps again since they lose a large portion of area denial. You can't melee ball if you're uncoordinated :>

You can't melee ball either if they throw waves of sb at you.

So spb get to join the meta? Along with berserker and reaper right? Sounds like diversity to me!

[RisenHowl.2419]

@Acyk.9671 said:

@"RisenHowl.2419" said:Since the balance team doesn't seem to understand what's broken or how to fix it, here =D

_Sand savant,

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sand_Savant_

Why this is broken

Increases your target cap from 3/6 to 5/10. That's a 60% increase in scourge's damage, barrier, corruption, and cleansing. 60% increase for the entire profession mechanic. That's why it's broken. It pushes out every other melee class because no other class has comparable output. Neither of the other two grandmaster traits have or ever will be taken because it's no competition. It's maybe a 10% damage increase to run Demonic lore if you don't get cleansed. Feed from corruption is a nothing trait. It's been two years, sand savant has remained the only choice for scourge grandmaster regardless of stat spread, it's that strong.

How to fix it

-Keep the radius increase and the target cap-Sand savant now modifies manifest sand shade (which is the damaging part of each f skill activation) so that it heals instead of doing damage.-200 base, keep the .666 healing power coefficient-Increase manifest sand shade size to 240, keep the 3 target cap. 180 radius is far too clunky for a profession mechanic, if it stays that small it'll be almost impossible to land on moving targets.

What the results would be

-Scourge can now be a viable support elite spec in pve, pvp, and wvw. You know, like it was advertised to be-Carpet bombing goes away, reducing load on the servers. Two birds, meet one stone-Other melee classes become viable. Shakes up the meta after two years of pirate ship

I agree with your statement but i would change it differently with a more simple approach.

Manifest Sand Shade

: I agree a base 240 radius is definitely a requisite.

Sand Savant

: I am not sure i like your idea of Sand Savant turning Manifest Sand Shade into a healing Aoe. There are already enough healers in WvW without adding 1 more. Sand Savant should be "Barriers applied around you (not your shade) affect 10 allies in a 300 radius".If you want a total defensive Sand shade, it should be Desert Empowerment's job instead.This way they can nerf base barriers on Sand Cascade, Sand Flare and Desert Shroud and increase their healing coeff. You wouldn't see power scourge offering this amount of protection to allies anymore and you wouldn't need more than 5 condi support scourges in a 50 men squad. Even more room for other specs.

Tell me if i'm wrong

On a side note, I would also nerf the power coeff on Desert Shroud.

With a blood build and 2k healing power+modifiers you're looking at ~2.2k heal on each f skill, with barrier that puts scourge at a little more hps than most current healers. Better than firebrand, worse than scrapper and tempest, offering none of the boons that the other classes bring as the tradeoff

[SkyShroud.2865]

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@SkyShroud.2865 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@SkyShroud.2865 said:I don't see how your changes shift the numbers advantage balancing to coordinated teamplay advantage.I believe plenty quit simply because the balance is shifted from coordinate teamplay to simply numbers and individual skills. Such balance simply means just having higher numbers with some sense of rotations will exponentially increase the victory rate. In other words, the balance encourage numbers and more numbers.A real fix to the meta would be trying to emphases coordinate teamplay once again like in core.

It solves carpet bombing and easy queue-wide cleansing. Both changes favor coordinated group play since people will have to play something other than faceroll scourge to be efficient as damage dealers while actually watching their party so they don't waste cleanses.

removing 10 target shades opens up melee ball comps again since they lose a large portion of area denial. You can't melee ball if you're uncoordinated :>

You can't melee ball either if they throw waves of sb at you.

So spb get to join the meta? Along with berserker and reaper right? Sounds like diversity to me!

SB is in the meta. I guess....you are on the blob side.

[Acyk.9671]

deleted

Edited April 3, 2022 by Acyk.9671

[RisenHowl.2419]

@SkyShroud.2865 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@SkyShroud.2865 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@SkyShroud.2865 said:I don't see how your changes shift the numbers advantage balancing to coordinated teamplay advantage.I believe plenty quit simply because the balance is shifted from coordinate teamplay to simply numbers and individual skills. Such balance simply means just having higher numbers with some sense of rotations will exponentially increase the victory rate. In other words, the balance encourage numbers and more numbers.A real fix to the meta would be trying to emphases coordinate teamplay once again like in core.

It solves carpet bombing and easy queue-wide cleansing. Both changes favor coordinated group play since people will have to play something other than faceroll scourge to be efficient as damage dealers while actually watching their party so they don't waste cleanses.

removing 10 target shades opens up melee ball comps again since they lose a large portion of area denial. You can't melee ball if you're uncoordinated :>

You can't melee ball either if they throw waves of sb at you.

So spb get to join the meta? Along with berserker and reaper right? Sounds like diversity to me!

SB is in the meta. I guess....you are on the blob side.

I have a good idea of how spb works and how to use it, it's ineffective with groups of 50+ because the scourge melee denial at those numbers becomes too much for them to be useful. You can't bubble when 20 scourges are corrupting, fixing sand savant removes that impediment and opens up other melee classes for large scale wvw.

@Acyk.9671 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@Acyk.9671 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:Since the balance team doesn't seem to understand what's broken or how to fix it, here =D

_Sand savant,

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sand_Savant_

Why this is broken

Increases your target cap from 3/6 to 5/10. That's a 60% increase in scourge's damage, barrier, corruption, and cleansing. 60% increase for the entire profession mechanic. That's why it's broken. It pushes out every other melee class because no other class has comparable output. Neither of the other two grandmaster traits have or ever will be taken because it's no competition. It's maybe a 10% damage increase to run Demonic lore if you don't get cleansed. Feed from corruption is a nothing trait. It's been two years, sand savant has remained the only choice for scourge grandmaster regardless of stat spread, it's that strong.

How to fix it

-Keep the radius increase and the target cap-Sand savant now modifies manifest sand shade (which is the damaging part of each f skill activation) so that it heals instead of doing damage.-200 base, keep the .666 healing power coefficient-Increase manifest sand shade size to 240, keep the 3 target cap. 180 radius is far too clunky for a profession mechanic, if it stays that small it'll be almost impossible to land on moving targets.

What the results would be

-Scourge can now be a viable support elite spec in pve, pvp, and wvw. You know, like it was advertised to be-Carpet bombing goes away, reducing load on the servers. Two birds, meet one stone-Other melee classes become viable. Shakes up the meta after two years of pirate ship

I agree with your statement but i would change it differently with a more simple approach.

Manifest Sand Shade

: I agree a base 240 radius is definitely a requisite.

Sand Savant

: I am not sure i like your idea of Sand Savant turning Manifest Sand Shade into a healing Aoe. There are already enough healers in WvW without adding 1 more. Sand Savant should be "Barriers applied around you (not your shade) affect 10 allies in a 300 radius".If you want a total defensive Sand shade, it should be Desert Empowerment's job instead.This way they can nerf base barriers on Sand Cascade, Sand Flare and Desert Shroud and increase their healing coeff. You wouldn't see power scourge offering this amount of protection to allies anymore and you wouldn't need more than 5 condi support scourges in a 50 men squad. Even more room for other specs.

Tell me if i'm wrong

On a side note, I would also nerf the power coeff on Desert Shroud.

With a blood build and 2k healing power+modifiers you're looking at ~2.2k heal on each f skill, with barrier that puts scourge at a little more hps than most current healers. Better than firebrand, worse than scrapper and tempest, offering none of the boons that the other classes bring as the tradeoff

I am not saying it wouldn't be balanced. I am just not so keen on adding another major mechanic to an already omnipresent spec. Not that it wouldn't be in line with barrier as both would require healing power but i like the idea of supporting your group differently than just healing so if F1 were to heal shouldn't it do less than FB? I don't know what's Anet's stance on blood scourge, will they nerf it because of pvp or will they rework it to increase group support...Wouldn't scourge end up being played as a minstrel support with "free" access to corrupt? That's another thing i am not a fan of: every support in minstrel and every dmg dealer on berserker/marauder gear.

It's not adding the mechanic without a tradeoff. if you take sand savant, your f1-4 no longer deal damage and would instead only heal. So it forces a choice- 10 target support or 6 target damage.

It would force scourge in pvp to either go the damage route or the healing route as well- where currently a blood scourge has damage+sustain+res, this change would give them either damage+res or (better)sustain+res with a huge hit to damage.

With this change we'd more likely see settlers scourge (condi+healing) with a focus on healing since the dhuumfire nerf gutted scourge condi damage. They would still have most of the corrupt ability that current scourge does which leaves corrupted boons, 2s torment from each f skill, and 7x5s torment from f5 as their damage output. The bleeding from scepter 2 and dagger 5 is pretty unimpactful, as is the burning on torch 4. There's no point in running minstrels or plaguedoctor as scourge doesn't have the boon output to justify it, the only group boons they can provide reasonably well are might (with blood is power/barrier) and protection (from traited wells, though that gives up healing from transfusion). Additionally, support hybrid scourges would have to choose between placing a shade on the enemy for corrupts/conditions or placing it on their own team for healing/barrier/cleansing.

We would see less dps oriented scourges in wvw, more support scourges (likely with berserkers and reapers, support barrier+pbaoe heals favors both), less skill lag (less computations with the decreased targets), offensive firebrands, and more choices of party support (tempest+ventari rev) that complement support scourge.

The antitoxin nerfs would really open up condi classes like frontline rev/renegade, condi/support scourge hybrids, burn firebrands, hybrid holosmith, condi tempest/weaver, and possibly condi thief.

We could see melee comps with either power or condi dps classes with coordinated spb bubbles. Pirate ship with heralds/weavers would remain strong and favor highly coordinated bombs. In short, these two changes would cause diversity to explode. No more stale meta =D

[Acyk.9671]

deleted

Edited April 3, 2022 by Acyk.9671

[RisenHowl.2419]

@Acyk.9671 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@SkyShroud.2865 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@SkyShroud.2865 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@SkyShroud.2865 said:I don't see how your changes shift the numbers advantage balancing to coordinated teamplay advantage.I believe plenty quit simply because the balance is shifted from coordinate teamplay to simply numbers and individual skills. Such balance simply means just having higher numbers with some sense of rotations will exponentially increase the victory rate. In other words, the balance encourage numbers and more numbers.A real fix to the meta would be trying to emphases coordinate teamplay once again like in core.

It solves carpet bombing and easy queue-wide cleansing. Both changes favor coordinated group play since people will have to play something other than faceroll scourge to be efficient as damage dealers while actually watching their party so they don't waste cleanses.

removing 10 target shades opens up melee ball comps again since they lose a large portion of area denial. You can't melee ball if you're uncoordinated :>

You can't melee ball either if they throw waves of sb at you.

So spb get to join the meta? Along with berserker and reaper right? Sounds like diversity to me!

SB is in the meta. I guess....you are on the blob side.

I have a good idea of how spb works and how to use it, it's ineffective with groups of 50+ because the scourge melee denial at those numbers becomes too much for them to be useful. You can't bubble when 20 scourges are corrupting, fixing sand savant removes that impediment and opens up other melee classes for large scale wvw.

@Acyk.9671 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@Acyk.9671 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:Since the balance team doesn't seem to understand what's broken or how to fix it, here =D

_Sand savant,

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sand_Savant_

Why this is broken

Increases your target cap from 3/6 to 5/10. That's a 60% increase in scourge's damage, barrier, corruption, and cleansing. 60% increase for the entire profession mechanic. That's why it's broken. It pushes out every other melee class because no other class has comparable output. Neither of the other two grandmaster traits have or ever will be taken because it's no competition. It's maybe a 10% damage increase to run Demonic lore if you don't get cleansed. Feed from corruption is a nothing trait. It's been two years, sand savant has remained the only choice for scourge grandmaster regardless of stat spread, it's that strong.

How to fix it

-Keep the radius increase and the target cap-Sand savant now modifies manifest sand shade (which is the damaging part of each f skill activation) so that it heals instead of doing damage.-200 base, keep the .666 healing power coefficient-Increase manifest sand shade size to 240, keep the 3 target cap. 180 radius is far too clunky for a profession mechanic, if it stays that small it'll be almost impossible to land on moving targets.

What the results would be

-Scourge can now be a viable support elite spec in pve, pvp, and wvw. You know, like it was advertised to be-Carpet bombing goes away, reducing load on the servers. Two birds, meet one stone-Other melee classes become viable. Shakes up the meta after two years of pirate ship

I agree with your statement but i would change it differently with a more simple approach.

Manifest Sand Shade

: I agree a base 240 radius is definitely a requisite.

Sand Savant

: I am not sure i like your idea of Sand Savant turning Manifest Sand Shade into a healing Aoe. There are already enough healers in WvW without adding 1 more. Sand Savant should be "Barriers applied around you (not your shade) affect 10 allies in a 300 radius".If you want a total defensive Sand shade, it should be Desert Empowerment's job instead.This way they can nerf base barriers on Sand Cascade, Sand Flare and Desert Shroud and increase their healing coeff. You wouldn't see power scourge offering this amount of protection to allies anymore and you wouldn't need more than 5 condi support scourges in a 50 men squad. Even more room for other specs.

Tell me if i'm wrong

On a side note, I would also nerf the power coeff on Desert Shroud.

With a blood build and 2k healing power+modifiers you're looking at ~2.2k heal on each f skill, with barrier that puts scourge at a little more hps than most current healers. Better than firebrand, worse than scrapper and tempest, offering none of the boons that the other classes bring as the tradeoff

I am not saying it wouldn't be balanced. I am just not so keen on adding another major mechanic to an already omnipresent spec. Not that it wouldn't be in line with barrier as both would require healing power but i like the idea of supporting your group differently than just healing so if F1 were to heal shouldn't it do less than FB? I don't know what's Anet's stance on blood scourge, will they nerf it because of pvp or will they rework it to increase group support...Wouldn't scourge end up being played as a minstrel support with "free" access to corrupt? That's another thing i am not a fan of: every support in minstrel and every dmg dealer on berserker/marauder gear.

It's not adding the mechanic without a tradeoff. if you take sand savant, your f1-4 no longer deal damage and would instead only heal. So it forces a choice- 10 target support or 6 target damage.

It would force scourge in pvp to either go the damage route or the healing route as well- where currently a blood scourge has damage+sustain+res, this change would give them either damage+res or (better)sustain+res with a huge hit to damage.

With this change we'd more likely see settlers scourge (condi+healing) with a focus on healing since the dhuumfire nerf gutted scourge condi damage. They would still have most of the corrupt ability that current scourge does which leaves corrupted boons, 2s torment from each f skill, and 7x5s torment from f5 as their damage output. The bleeding from scepter 2 and dagger 5 is pretty unimpactful, as is the burning on torch 4. There's no point in running minstrels or plaguedoctor as scourge doesn't have the boon output to justify it, the only group boons they can provide reasonably well are might (with blood is power/barrier) and protection (from traited wells, though that gives up healing from transfusion). Additionally, support hybrid scourges would have to choose between placing a shade on the enemy for corrupts/conditions or placing it on their own team for healing/barrier/cleansing.

We would see less dps oriented scourges in wvw, more support scourges (likely with berserkers and reapers, support barrier+pbaoe heals favors both), less skill lag (less computations with the decreased targets), offensive firebrands, and more choices of party support (tempest+ventari rev) that complement support scourge.

The antitoxin nerfs would really open up condi classes like frontline rev/renegade, condi/support scourge hybrids, burn firebrands, hybrid holosmith, condi tempest/weaver, and possibly condi thief.

We could see melee comps with either power or condi dps classes with coordinated spb bubbles. Pirate ship with heralds/weavers would remain strong and favor highly coordinated bombs. In short, these two changes would cause diversity to explode. No more stale meta =D

I wouldn't have balanced it that way but yeah that's probably the best proposal without touching the spec design.Yeah i expect a change of meta too but we never know with Anet. Sb WoD's radius will still be a problem though...

trying to shoot for the easiest changes with the biggest impact haha

it would be pretty great to see comps like:

-hybrid scourge, support scrapper, boonrip spb, mallyx herald, axe/scepter condi fb for condi melee comp-support scourge, support d/wh tempest, boonrip spb, berserker/reaper/staff DD/holosmith/guard slb, power fb for power melee comp-support fb, support staff tempest, hammer herald x2, weaver for power pirate ship-support scrapper, hybrid staff tempest, burn dh/fb, condi staff weaver/condi thief for condi pirate ship

instead of... support fb, support scrapper, power scourge, power herald, power weaver/spb

[SkyShroud.2865]

The problem is you are looking at blob vs blob.

[RisenHowl.2419]

@SkyShroud.2865 said:The problem is you are looking at blob vs blob.

which do you see more often, 20v20 or 50+v50+?

or more realistically, 20v50+. which is where changing sand savant and antitoxin runes will have the most impact. full squad is a minimum of 10 scourge, each capable of a 50k+dps bomb that can collectively one shot anything under 30 people as soon as they get into <300 range. 500k total bomb after sand savant nerf becomes a 300k bomb, which you can actually fight back against, giving smaller guilds a chance to fight against a full squad again.

[Acyk.9671]

deleted

Edited April 3, 2022 by Acyk.9671

[RisenHowl.2419]

@Acyk.9671 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@SkyShroud.2865 said:The problem is you are looking at blob vs blob.

which do you see more often, 20v20 or 50+v50+?

or more realistically, 20v50+. which is where changing sand savant and antitoxin runes will have the most impact. full squad is a minimum of 10 scourge, each capable of a 50k+dps bomb that can collectively one shot anything under 30 people as soon as they get into <300 range. 500k total bomb after sand savant nerf becomes a 300k bomb, which you can actually fight back against, giving smaller guilds a chance to fight against a full squad again.

@SkyShroud.2865 Regardless of number the meta is the meta. You will find the same mandatory and optionnal specs/builds in GvG and blob. What else is there to look at than those 2?

Next biggest outlier is boon output, heralds in particular. Facets should pulse every 4s instead of 3s with a 2s duration on fury from darkness instead of 3s. Then remove the 10 target cap from Draconic echo and replace it with +1s base boon duration for each facet.

Traited facets would then pulse 3s fury every 4s for 5 players, pushing comps to either sacrifice some Herald damage for concentration, run for great justice on warriors, or add pack runes to a class instead of scholars

[fewfield.7802]

I all agree.Lets do it Anet. If you are looking for gameplay changing, this is the good fix.

Dont listen to those crying scourge mains. I am playing scourge as well but i think scourge deserves this nerf.

[fewfield.7802]

@DeadlySynz.3471 said:This is an example of why Anet really shouldn't listen to people when it comes to changes. Your video shows exactly why Sand Savant on it's own is pathetic for damage. The problem people have is they are getting hit by multiple shade bombs, or shade bombs in combination with other melee and ranged bashing them at once. This doesn't mean Sand Savant or shades are a problem; it means too many people are playing (or required to play) scourges due to their boon corrupting abilities because boons themselves are out of control.

This is further amplified by the kingpin or the mother of all problems with this meta; the Guardian does way too much (thus 1 role is helping Scourges survive because they are extremely vulnerable). Your idea of the Sand Savant change would only encourage people to bring more scourges (so instead of being hit with say 3 shade bombs, you maybe hit with 7-10), or people are going to gravitate to another class such as Rev which is going to make things even worse for melee.

If people really want to shake up the melee.. like I mean really really shake it up, gut the Guardian. Instead of being able to kitten out Stab, Aegis, Resistance, Healing, Reflects, and to a lesser extent retaliation at will, narrow it down to doing one of those well, and medicore at best for another; then remove the 3 of them. For example, let them keep their party stab, but take away their ability to share Aegis, completely take away their ability to give resistance to themselves and others, and drastically lower their ability to heal themselves and the party. No more reflects, give it to another class, and class, but let them keep their retaliation but relegate to an AoE effect of 200 around them (not killing rangers or Ele's from 1200 away by their own attacks. Or even dragonhunters with their own traps from god knows how far away.

That will shake things up, because now it will force other classes to come in and heal. It would then put more focus on Rev's to actually be running more of a support/resistance build instead 1-2 hit KO'ing people from the back line. This will then make scourges far more vulnerable to kill (even though they are still easy to kill for people who actually know what they're doing). Groups overall are going to have to figure out another method of fighting instead of running in nearly invulnerable under a veil of blocks, resistance, and healing. At least not all coming from 1 class, the idea of that is just asinine.

it doesnt matter if ppl bring more or less scourge. What matters in this topic is that scourge is doing too much dmg and having insane space controlling. That's what encourages the pirateship meta. I dont mind nerfing GD and making other classes viable as well but in this topic, it's all true that scourge actually needs to be nerfed.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

I think keeping the support traits/ skills centered on the necro and the offense centered on the shade is the way to go. both shouldn't do both.

[KeyOrion.9506]

Everyone and their mother is running Permaboon tanks with Condi. The condi output in zergs is off the charts, and permaboons is keeping Defensive shields, invulns and reflects nearly with an up time of 97% to 100%. Basically God-mode on steroids.

[SkyShroud.2865]

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@SkyShroud.2865 said:The problem is you are looking at blob vs blob.

which do you see more often, 20v20 or 50+v50+?

or more realistically, 20v50+. which is where changing sand savant and antitoxin runes will have the most impact. full squad is a minimum of 10 scourge, each capable of a 50k+dps bomb that can collectively one shot anything under 30 people as soon as they get into <300 range. 500k total bomb after sand savant nerf becomes a 300k bomb, which you can actually fight back against, giving smaller guilds a chance to fight against a full squad again.

That is the problem here. Guilds don't field 50+. Your wish for dynamic in blob can and will impact the guilds that fight outnumbered. Fighting outnumber biggest problem isn't the amount of aoe because aoe has been a thing for 7 years but the amount of boonstripping available from 2 different classes and likewise how mount can catch up and overcome any forms of cc and adsorb part of the damages. So what if you nerf scourge, you still have another class capable of boonstripping and since you nerf the dps of scourge, why would there be a chance small squad to deal with outnumbered? Their collective dps would drop as well. For blob fight, you just gonna shift the meta into pirateshipping with herald.

[Klypto.1703]

@hunkamania.7561 said:If you think only changing 2 things will fix wvw you're sadly mistaken. Tons of nerfs to damage/healing/boon spam/condi spam/stealth are needed to get it respectable. The power creep in wvw is off the charts in a game mode that has large fights with a lot of people.

Depending on how you look at it has destroyed the small scale/roaming and 15-20 guild game play all together plus power creep at the large scale factor. As well small scale combat specs suffer a total removal from the game mode based on large combat stealth tactics as a counter play. So where you had players in off peak hours with no guild groups keeping the game mode alive you no longer have that.