Mike Z on pcgamesn.com: Expansions not ruled out

[Gehenna.3625]

Sounds to me like they first wanna give their Sagas a shot and hope they do enough to convince NcSoft expansions aren't needed anymore. And if they don't deliver then they will start talking new expansion. To me that sounds like they rather do it their way and that any expansion will not be announced before 2020 and not released before 2021. From my point of view that's a long time for the game to be without an expansion and an essential refresh of the game.

I dunno, it seems they are playing a risky game with the player base this way and I think their gemstore and merchandising will only increase in the meantime. Not so sure if I want to be along for that ride.

[Bloodstealer.5978]

@kharmin.7683 said:

@Tiviana.2650 said:

@Greg.7086 said:

@"Dami.5046" said:The problem is, would people be happy with small updates for a couple odd years while it's worked on and be totally understanding?Absolutely not.

^^ I would be happy even if they said a new expansion is coming in 2021/22 at least its C O M M U N I C A T I O N from Anet to their gaming Community that some further decent sized new content is coming, if even a long way off. It also demonstrates some sense of longevity of the game admist a growing black cloud of discombobulation.

This as long as they tell us they are working on something either an expansion or expansion type content over time. People just want to know there will be more than just lws from now on.

And the backlash when they don't meet this target? I think that this is why they won't set a date or make promises.

I don't see anyone asking for a date.. that is obviously just not realistic at this stage.. they and I just want some form of commitment one way or the other instead of if, but, maybes and maybe nots.At the very least give some indication as to what the plan is for the game after IBS, show there is some longer term plan beyond another LW "SAGA". 12 -18 Months is not long in MMO space, but it can begin to feel like forever if the content releases drift further apart without anything major or substantive replay value attached to what is included.

[Astralporing.1957]

@"Eloc Freidon.5692" said:It always was. Lets consider Season 5 is extra time for them to figure out and work on a future expansion.They don't seem to be working on any expac at the moment. They aren't "ruling it out" only because they have no idea whether the situation won't force them to change their plans (like it happened once before with events leading up to HoT), but hey clearly aren't planning on having any expacs in foreseeable future.

@"zealex.9410" said:English is not my first laguage, doesnt "on the table" in regards to something (in this case an expansion) mean that its being discussed/considered?No, Anet has been consistently using that for things that they weren't working on, but weren't strongly against. Very few things weren't on the table - in fact, Anet liked to state that "Everything is on the table".

So, basically, it doesn't mean "it's being discussed/considered". It means "we're not working on it, but we've never actually ruled that out."

So, i wouldn't be having any hope about it. As i see it, they have clearly decided on a course that doesn't include an expac. They may indeed reconsider in the future, but are unlikely to do so unless something forces them to. Meaning, not until something blows up in their faces even more than it already did.

Expac may be on the table. It's likely hidden behind SAB world 3, underwater combat rework and Cantha, though.

[AlexxxDelta.1806]

@"LowestTruth.2635" said:This is just one 47 year old's hot take on this: expansions have been the paradigm of MMOs for the last fifteen-twenty years. Regardless of what content is sprinkled in between expacs, that's the cycle we've been trained for.

If GW2's dev team can deliver on the idea of expac-like content within a Living World, I say good on them for busting the paradigm open. I want to see that. If terming it a "saga" ties into that, great.

So that paradigm busting thing, that's what I'm waiting to see. I don't care what they label it. I get the frustration on the part of the playerbase, because we have all been trained to think that an expac is what gives life to a game, an expac is what delivers big game-changing content, an expac is what incites the advertising frenzy and the hype and etc. I, personally, only care about the features and content and they can deliver it however they wish. I do not need something labeled an expansion.

My interpretation, both in context and in wishful thinking, is that busting the paradigm is what they intend. The problem with this is that they presented not a jot or tittle of that intention during the presentation. They did not repeat that they intend on including expac-like content. Maybe they just assumed saying it once was enough, or labeling it a "saga" was indicative of the plans. Maybe that's what they intended and the layoffs and lack of resources foiled it for the time being. At any rate, I am in full wait and see mode. Could be industry-changing, could fall flat.

It would help if they laid out what they want to do and take the risk of not being able to deliver or not deliver in a timely manner; regardless of what NCSoft or ANet thinks of that new-fangled idea of transparency (he says sarcastically because being transparent is 100% better than silence, even with the vocal freaks, and that has been proven by other studios time and again and again and again), I believe that a significant portion of the game's population would happily support them. What mostly concerns me is that the idea of paradigm-busting is innovative, but they can't even learn modern (read: normal) communication strategy from other studios. We'll see.

I never bought the "they aren't talking because they don't want to promise anything" excuse. It implies that anet are a bunch of mouthbreathers who are incapable of delivering anything on time or even at all. I refuse to believe that for a studio with such history in the genre.

I think the reason they are not laying out specific plans is because they don't have anything to say. Or more accurately, they have nothing that would be well received.

Let's say they were somehow forced to be fully transparent. And their plans were laid out like this : " Our finance guys told us we have to squeeze every penny we can from this aging game for the minimum possible investment. Because we have to be brought in line with the rest of NCsoft properties. So what we 'll do is stop any major investments in xpacs, call our new LS a saga and expansion-like (in name only) and focus on increased cash store monetization." If that's the real plan, of course they 'll choose to be silent or extremely vague, resorting to corporate PR jargon like the OP.

I would think that if they could really provide the type of content/features we normally see in xpacs through free updates, their PR would be shouting it all over the place. Because it would be a true paradigm shift, with Anet dunking on many competitors who charge for that type of content. Who would want to keep that under wraps?

[LowestTruth.2635]

@"AlexxxDelta.1806" said:

I never bought the "they aren't talking because they don't want to promise anything" excuse. It implies that anet are a bunch of mouthbreathers who are incapable of delivering anything on time or even at all. I refuse to believe that for a studio with such history in the genre.

I think the reason they are not laying out specific plans is because they don't have anything to say. Or more accurately, they have nothing that would be well received.

Let's say they were somehow forced to be fully transparent. And their plans were laid out like this : " Our finance guys told us we have to squeeze every penny we can from this aging game for the minimum possible investment. Because we have to be brought in line with the rest of NCsoft properties. So what we 'll do is stop any major investments in xpacs, call our new LS a saga and expansion-like (in name only) and focus on increased cash store monetization." If that's the real plan, of course they 'll choose to be silent or extremely vague, resorting to corporate PR jargon like the OP.

I would think that if they could really provide the type of content/features we normally see in xpacs through free updates, their PR would be shouting it all over the place. Because it would be a true paradigm shift, with Anet dunking on many competitors who charge for that type of content. Who would want to keep that under wraps?

I don't particularly disagree with anything you've said here, honestly. I'm more optimistic for no tangible reason.

Also, I'm going to pretend that your last few sentences aren't full on Occam's Razor; otherwise I'd just flat-out leave for another game.

[sitarskee.5738]

Feels like ANet devs live in a bubble and nothing comes inside that bubble. They're resistant to community needs and ideas. They just want to evolve the cringy story around Aurene and other cringy characters like Taimi. Nothing innovative and interesting is going to happen soon unfortunately. Such a shame though, GW2 has potential to be a pretty damn good MMO.

[Aenaos.8160]

What I really hear is that at some point it was decided to focus solely on LW style episodic content-now called a saga-and not develop expansions any more.Now that the decision is made players will have to live with it for the foreseeable and not so foreseeable future.End of the story.I really hope they aimed right on this one and it all ends up well for GW2.But(t)-this no expansion model has already been attempted and tried and failed.It nearly drove the game to the ground.Hope dies last...but All is Vain.

[Trinnitty.8256]

I am worried about how gw2 I going to be able to keep up. If no xpac is in the works its going to take them years to get one developed. think of the long drought before HoT was released. living story is just ok. its a week or 2 if you do all the content depending on how grindy achievements and collections are. Living story reminds me of taking a 2 hour movie and and stop watching it every 20 minutes then start the movie again in 2 months for another 20 minutes. Its hard for me to be interested in the story when its so broken up in phases.

[perilisk.1874]

I guess the main question is, what exactly do people expect to get out of an expansion, but not out of an episodic format.

Aside from new maps, story, skins, and achievements (which LS also provide) the expansions introduced:

HoT:

• Mastery system [expanded by LS and PoF]
• Gliding system (noted for much larger impact on game than other masteries)
• Adventure system [expanded by LS and PoF]
• E-spec system [expanded by PoF]
• Guildhalls [expanded by PoF]
• Raids [expanded at its own pace outside of LS or expansions, but tied to expansion ownership]PoF:
• Mount system [expanded by LS]
• Bounty system [expanded by LS]

Both LS and expansions build on existing systems.

Major new systems have been introduced outside of expansions (fractals and ascended crafting, wardrobe, progression/trait revamps) but more often in expansions. However, that was more true of HoT than PoF.

Things that have only been introduced within expansions so far: new guildhalls, new e-specs, new ranger pets (I think?).

So, what does LS require to be the equivalent of an expansion? A guildhall, a major new mechanic like mounts, a minor system like bounties, a couple of pets, and a set of e-specs?

Or is less about what content is introduced, and more about the pace and price at which it is provided? E.g., is it a question of cinematic versus serial story pacing.

[AlexxxDelta.1806]

@perilisk.1874 said:I guess the main question is, what exactly do people expect to get out of an expansion, but not out of an episodic format.

Aside from new maps, story, skins, and achievements (which LS also provide) the expansions introduced:

HoT:

• Mastery system [expanded by LS and PoF]
• Gliding system (noted for much larger impact on game than other masteries)
• Adventure system [expanded by LS and PoF]
• E-spec system [expanded by PoF]
• Guildhalls [expanded by PoF]
• Raids [expanded at its own pace outside of LS or expansions, but tied to expansion ownership]PoF:
• Mount system [expanded by LS]
• Bounty system [expanded by LS]

Both LS and expansions build on existing systems.

Major new systems have been introduced outside of expansions (fractals and ascended crafting, wardrobe, progression/trait revamps) but more often in expansions. However, that was more true of HoT than PoF.

Things that have only been introduced within expansions so far: new guildhalls, new e-specs, new ranger pets (I think?).

So, what does LS require to be the equivalent of an expansion? A guildhall, a major new mechanic like mounts, a minor system like bounties, a couple of pets, and a set of e-specs?

Or is less about what content is introduced, and more about the pace and price at which it is provided? E.g., is it a question of cinematic versus serial story pacing.

Nice list of what is perceived as expansion-like features. You forgot a new class (Rev) in HoT.

To answer your question, I would consider a saga to be expansion-level if it had a combination of brand new expansive maps and new game-changing features. Let's say two expansive maps made with brand new assets, similar to VB,AB, Amnoon etc. Paired with a couple major features, like a new race or class, new elite specs or whatever the new equivalent of gliding/mounts could be (housing or something). I don't expect free patches to provide me with a huge list of new features like 60$ HoT did. But I do expect a couple of those and they have to be major. The content void left from no xpac has to be filled somehow. At least partially.

[Erasculio.2914]

@"Cyninja.2954" said:I think they (Arenanet) simply do not have the resources (or are not given the resources from NCSoft) at this point in time to devote time on making an expansion alongside Living World Saga 5.

Considering this comment on Reddit, and how those huge spikes in earnings came after expansions, feels a bit short-sighted to not make resource-generating expansions due to a lack of resources.

[Vayne.8563]

@Bloodstealer.5978 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:

@Bloodstealer.5978 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:THANK YOU!!!

This is literally all I wanted to hear from the live event lolI knew season 5 was coming, but I really wanted to know that expansions were not being killed off and the game was going to rely entierly on living world going forward.

I don't expect Anet to announce expansions when they're not even in the works and they're not ready to move onto one but just knowing that they are open to making more of them for Gw2 is a massive piece of mind that will keep me personally as dedicated a player as I have been for years.

I like the living world and I enjoy the living world, but I do not believe the living world is capable of sustaining the game indefinitely.Expansions are essential to the future of this game imo and that is a belief that isn't going to change, so this confirmation is something i've been wanting to hear for a good while now ^^

Hmmm what exactly was confirmed, cos I never read any such thing tbh.

That expansions are still on the table as future content for the game and that Anet is aware that many of us still want expansions for this game and are more than willing to pay for them should they make them.That's all ^^ and all I really wanted to hear at the event :)

Your reading way too much into that.. it was clearly a politicians statement.. neither deny or confirm means nothing.It's just a non answer, as others have said already.

Many said the same thing before the first expansion was announced though. I said I thought they were working on an expansion, Anet said nothing about it, and many many months later, they finally announced it, after people were saying that Anet was ambiguous, or would have said something if that was the case.

Anet isn't going to reveal this information before it's ready. Here's a possibility. Some people are in favor of making an expansion some aren't and there's an internal conflict, so they aren't going to say anything. We just don't have the information. But this is not the first time the bulk of the forum has said something that turned out to not be true.

Sometimes it's not often the table means it's not off the table. It could just be a political answer. It could also be a genuine one. How you take it depends on how jaded you are.

[knomslayer.9457]

New expansion or no expansion, im going to keep playing the game. Its the best MMO out there. No new expansion article going to stop me from having fun

[style.6173]

Unfortunately, it feels as if there isn't a strategic direction for gw2 anymore. For those of you who have been around for a while, you know that ANET used to provide high level roadmaps. It was well thought out. Now it feel like ANET is releasing content without any real direction on where to take the game. We are in a situation now where there is an announcement and everyone is disappointed because it is very minimal compared to the past.

I get that this is a 7 year old game, but if they treat it like a 7 year old game, they will continue to lose people.

[zealex.9410]

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Bloodstealer.5978 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:

@Bloodstealer.5978 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:THANK YOU!!!

This is literally all I wanted to hear from the live event lolI knew season 5 was coming, but I really wanted to know that expansions were not being killed off and the game was going to rely entierly on living world going forward.

I don't expect Anet to announce expansions when they're not even in the works and they're not ready to move onto one but just knowing that they are open to making more of them for Gw2 is a massive piece of mind that will keep me personally as dedicated a player as I have been for years.

I like the living world and I enjoy the living world, but I do not believe the living world is capable of sustaining the game indefinitely.Expansions are essential to the future of this game imo and that is a belief that isn't going to change, so this confirmation is something i've been wanting to hear for a good while now ^^

Hmmm what exactly was confirmed, cos I never read any such thing tbh.

That expansions are still on the table as future content for the game and that Anet is aware that many of us still want expansions for this game and are more than willing to pay for them should they make them.That's all ^^ and all I really wanted to hear at the event :)

Your reading way too much into that.. it was clearly a politicians statement.. neither deny or confirm means nothing.It's just a non answer, as others have said already.

Many said the same thing before the first expansion was announced though. I said I thought they were working on an expansion, Anet said nothing about it, and many many months later, they finally announced it, after people were saying that Anet was ambiguous, or would have said something if that was the case.

Anet isn't going to reveal this information before it's ready. Here's a possibility. Some people are in favor of making an expansion some aren't and there's an internal conflict, so they aren't going to say anything. We just don't have the information. But this is not the first time the bulk of the forum has said something that turned out to not be true.

Sometimes it's not often the table means it's not off the table. It could just be a political answer. It could also be a genuine one. How you take it depends on how jaded you are.

They announced pof was in development just fine.

[Vayne.8563]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Bloodstealer.5978 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:

@Bloodstealer.5978 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:THANK YOU!!!

This is literally all I wanted to hear from the live event lolI knew season 5 was coming, but I really wanted to know that expansions were not being killed off and the game was going to rely entierly on living world going forward.

I don't expect Anet to announce expansions when they're not even in the works and they're not ready to move onto one but just knowing that they are open to making more of them for Gw2 is a massive piece of mind that will keep me personally as dedicated a player as I have been for years.

I like the living world and I enjoy the living world, but I do not believe the living world is capable of sustaining the game indefinitely.Expansions are essential to the future of this game imo and that is a belief that isn't going to change, so this confirmation is something i've been wanting to hear for a good while now ^^

Hmmm what exactly was confirmed, cos I never read any such thing tbh.

That expansions are still on the table as future content for the game and that Anet is aware that many of us still want expansions for this game and are more than willing to pay for them should they make them.That's all ^^ and all I really wanted to hear at the event :)

Your reading way too much into that.. it was clearly a politicians statement.. neither deny or confirm means nothing.It's just a non answer, as others have said already.

Many said the same thing before the first expansion was announced though. I said I thought they were working on an expansion, Anet said nothing about it, and many many months later, they finally announced it, after people were saying that Anet was ambiguous, or would have said something if that was the case.

Anet isn't going to reveal this information before it's ready. Here's a possibility. Some people are in favor of making an expansion some aren't and there's an internal conflict, so they aren't going to say anything. We just don't have the information. But this is not the first time the bulk of the forum has said something that turned out to not be true.

Sometimes it's not often the table means it's not off the table. It could just be a political answer. It could also be a genuine one. How you take it depends on how jaded you are.

They announced pof was in development just fine.

Nothing to do with what I said. They had a long term plan at that time and mentioned POF in an AMA that they were already working on it. Clearly they're not working on an expansion right now. Which doesn't mean an expansion isn't coming. The problem is you don't have enough data points to draw a conclusion. We've had two expansions and one of them was announced just fine. The other wasn't announced through months and months of doubts and demands. So saying Anet is saying this politically an opinion and it's okay to have an opinion. But it's just as possible the guy is saying we really don't know what we're doing after Season 5. That is, we don't know how many people will be playing the game in 2 years. What our income will be. What our situation will be. It's not even like Anet has the final say, since they're owned by NcSoft. In the past, NcSoft has said there'll be an expansion even when Anet said there wouldn't. Given that, why would you say there definitely will or won't be one.

The further out in the future something is, the harder it is to guarantee. I'd be more suspicious of he said, oh we'll definitely have an expansion at some point.

I mean Sony announced they were coming out with Everquest Next, and then the SOE sold out to Daybreak Entertainment and the product was scrapped.. Blizzard said they were working on Titan and that project was scrapped. Anet was working on side projects and we know at least two of those were scrapped. Why would anyone make a definitive statement? Why would you take a definitive statement as more honest than someone saying it's a possibility?

[Erasculio.2914]

@Vayne.8563 said:But it's just as possible the guy is saying we really don't know what we're doing after Season 5

Isn't that the worst case scenario? That ArenaNet has no long term plan and no idea what they'll do in the future?

If they're so uncertain of what will happen the day after tomorrow (because two years is next to nothing in game development time), how could they expect us to invest our time in their game? How reliable are they going to be?

[zealex.9410]

At least they were working on hot and didnt say a thing, they jave come out and said they arent working on expac 3 rn.

[Leablo.2651]

@style.6173 said:Unfortunately, it feels as if there isn't a strategic direction for gw2 anymore. For those of you who have been around for a while, you know that ANET used to provide high level roadmaps. It was well thought out. Now it feel like ANET is releasing content without any real direction on where to take the game. We are in a situation now where there is an announcement and everyone is disappointed because it is very minimal compared to the past.

I get that this is a 7 year old game, but if they treat it like a 7 year old game, they will continue to lose people.

I have been playing the game since 2012 and by my interpretation Anet has never produced anything resembling a roadmap for GW2. And under the original leadership, even when they announced specific features or events ahead of time, those often turned out to be lies or half-truths. Since the leadership shuffle after HoT I have only seen the game get better and Anet's statements get more honest. Even if communication has not increased in quantity it has certainly increased in quality.

That these communications don't contain the thing you want to hear does not mean they are failing to provide the relevant information. Mike Z told the press over a year ago that Season 4 would be followed by Season 5 and will not get a third expansion anytime soon. That was quite possibly the longest, accurate roadmap that Anet has ever provided for the game. Apparently it is now the players' turn to be dishonest.

[Vayne.8563]

@Erasculio.2914 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:But it's just as possible the guy is saying we really don't know what we're doing after Season 5

Isn't that the worst case scenario? That ArenaNet has no long term plan and no idea what they'll do in the future?

If they're so uncertain of what will happen the day after tomorrow (because two years is next to nothing in game development time), how could they expect us to invest our time in their game? How reliable are they going to be?

Not on my mind. I've been involved with many creative projects professionally. There are always choices and options. More than once we were working on content without knowing how it would be delivered in advanced. And it didn't affect the quality of the final product. Sometimes, locking yourself down to a commitment is a worse case scenario. Look at SOE. They ccreated a game. Sold alphas to a game that was never released. Is that a better case scenario?

[Erasculio.2914]

@"Vayne.8563" said:More than once we were working on content without knowing how it would be delivered in advanced. And it didn't affect the quality of the final product.

Sounds a lot like "Bioware's Magic", the belief that it will be alright in the end even if people don't know what they're doing in the beginning.

We have seen something similar in ArenaNet, at the many times in which their lack of long term planning became visible (introducing too many skills in the original Guild Wars, announcing Guild Wars 2 too early in development, the "will-they-won't-they" dance with expansions, etc).

It may even work for a while, but one day... The magic simply ends. With no expansion coming any time soon, it looks like that day isn't exactly very far away. How can players be expected to invest their time and money on GW2 while being under so many uncertainties?

[Vayne.8563]

@Erasculio.2914 said:

@"Vayne.8563" said:More than once we were working on content without knowing how it would be delivered in advanced. And it didn't affect the quality of the final product.

Sounds a lot like

"Bioware's Magic"

, the belief that it will be alright in the end even if people don't know what they're doing in the beginning.

We have seen something similar in ArenaNet, at the many times in which their lack of long term planning became visible (introducing too many skills in the original Guild Wars, announcing Guild Wars 2 too early in development, the

"will-they-won't-they" dance with expansions

, etc).

It may even work for a while, but one day... The magic simply ends. With no expansion coming any time soon, it looks like that day isn't exactly very far away. How can players be expected to invest their time and money on GW2 while being under so many uncertainties?

You speak like no one is enjoying this game. I can assure you that's not true. You may personally not be enjoying the game. Others are. Not every game design philosophy appeases every person. Piers Anthony outlines every book so that what he writes at the end is almost exactly like his out line every time. It's a publisher's dream. Stephen King, however, likens his creative process to paleontology, where he's digging up the skeletons of a story as he writes. He has no idea where he's going. That kind of creative pursuit means that things sometimes have to change. Less certain, more creative, in my opinion. There are surely disappointed people. There are surely people enjoying the game. I can't tell what's in greater number and neither can anyone else.

[ugrakarma.9416]

a expansion for the sake of expansion its worst idea ever, even worst: more elite specs. i always advocate a long focus on improve old content and balance.

[Bloodstealer.5978]

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Bloodstealer.5978 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:

@Bloodstealer.5978 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:THANK YOU!!!

This is literally all I wanted to hear from the live event lolI knew season 5 was coming, but I really wanted to know that expansions were not being killed off and the game was going to rely entierly on living world going forward.

I don't expect Anet to announce expansions when they're not even in the works and they're not ready to move onto one but just knowing that they are open to making more of them for Gw2 is a massive piece of mind that will keep me personally as dedicated a player as I have been for years.

I like the living world and I enjoy the living world, but I do not believe the living world is capable of sustaining the game indefinitely.Expansions are essential to the future of this game imo and that is a belief that isn't going to change, so this confirmation is something i've been wanting to hear for a good while now ^^

Hmmm what exactly was confirmed, cos I never read any such thing tbh.

That expansions are still on the table as future content for the game and that Anet is aware that many of us still want expansions for this game and are more than willing to pay for them should they make them.That's all ^^ and all I really wanted to hear at the event :)

Your reading way too much into that.. it was clearly a politicians statement.. neither deny or confirm means nothing.It's just a non answer, as others have said already.

Many said the same thing before the first expansion was announced though. I said I thought they were working on an expansion, Anet said nothing about it, and many many months later, they finally announced it, after people were saying that Anet was ambiguous, or would have said something if that was the case.

Anet isn't going to reveal this information before it's ready. Here's a possibility. Some people are in favor of making an expansion some aren't and there's an internal conflict, so they aren't going to say anything. We just don't have the information. But this is not the first time the bulk of the forum has said something that turned out to not be true.

Sometimes it's not often the table means it's not off the table. It could just be a political answer. It could also be a genuine one. How you take it depends on how jaded you are.

Except ANET have said.. they aren't ... they are committed to LW for the foreseeable future... but of course things can and often do change, but as of right now no expacs is incoming and if they start now it will be at least 2 yrs but likely more as they are already full steam ahead bringing the first SAGA to our screens, which is going to be resource intensive for the 4 teams for the next 12 months at the very least.

[Dante.1508]

I just hope its not really horrible like Heart of Thorns was.