Fragmentation shot vs shattershot meme

[Matoro.9708]

It's one of those things where you can't even say one has something over the other. I'll link their wiki stats here:https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fragmentation_Shothttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shattershot

Lets start with the physical damage:Frag shot: 147(0.4power)Shattershot: 238(0.65power)

Both hit in 120 around the target. I have tested this. Both can crit. Blatant advantage to shattershot. Not even close.

Attack speed: Shattershot comes out about 0.67 seconds, fragmentation shot at 1.2, nearly twice as slow. Projectile speed difference seems negligible. The arc of shattershot does seem slightly useful in situations that you are firing uphill. For physical DPS, renegade shortbow is at least 2 to 3 times better, just considering these factors. But pistol is a condition weapon you say! (So is shortbow hahaha). Let's move on then...

Condition portion:Frag shot: 5 secs of bleeding only on the primary target. (Pre-release data showed this once was AEO bleed. Removed for full game.)Shattershot: 3 secs of bleeding in the full AOE.

Everyone knows they would rather trade 2 secs of the bleed for AEO cleave potential. Especially with how much faster it comes out. Granted! You can boost pistol condi durations by 50%. Arguably worthwhile, but any engineer player knows they are not stopping to auto here. It's for blowtorch and then time to swap kits.

Both have the same range. They are clearly very similar skills in theme, but it's just obvious how Renegade btfo's pistol engi when you look at traits.

This might seem like a pointless discussion, but to me it's an outright ripoff that an elite spec basically comes out with an entirely better version of a skill. Forgetting about old skills is how we got here. Renegade as a whole feels like a much better version of the entire firearms trait line! A 33% crit boost from not dodging, entirely outdoing the 25% you can get from firearms, very easy might generation from any critical hits, plenty of bleeding bonuses, and even lets the autoattack pierce. Automatic fury generation regardless of range. Let's just say it: power creep. If you like pistol engi but want more oomph, pay up.

Ever notice how skill 4 on both weapon sets burns? 5 is a CC? 3 multi hits? See where I'm going?

As the final nail in the coffin, renegade can summon mortar fire from better engineers from the mists. Bruh. And turrets are still useless despite being the LAST actual machine that engineers can really even put out in the field - 1000 hp function gyro does not count. It's not funny anymore. Core engineer/scrapper is begging for that kind of quality of life and synergy. It's pleading for skills that define its class and give it that unique edge. As it stands, engineer is better called a weaponsmith or chrono lite. It builds no fortifications, no useful machines, it's all wells, prime light beams, and flamethrowers. I am not excited to play this game with my main being a confused damp forgotten noodle.

[Yasai.3549]

I mean yu kinda answered yur own question by mentioning kits.

Engineer realistically aren't supposed to camp a single weapon set for long, but Renegade doesn't have that luxury, limited by 10s Weapon swap cooldown.

Engineer never really used their autoattack as much as other class anyway, especially when playing Condi, which features usage of multiple kits.

[Matoro.9708]

@Yasai.3549 said:I mean yu kinda answered yur own question by mentioning kits.

Engineer realistically aren't supposed to camp a single weapon set for long, but Renegade doesn't have that luxury, limited by 10s Weapon swap cooldown.

Engineer never really used their autoattack as much as other class anyway, especially when playing Condi, which features usage of multiple kits.

I agree man. I kind of feel mixed about the post myself, but it just felt lame to sit on the knowledge that this kind of situation bottlenecks us into sitting on a lot of 'dead' skills. Engineers do have to be balanced so their huge arsenal isn't OP compared to profs with less skills, but most core engineer builds that aren't kits have a similar number, with way less quality of life. Is there not a better way to do it? Not sure .. maybe I'm ignorant, but Ele doesn't feel it as bad, does it? I know there's not any -3k hp penalty for weaver or tempest, but I'll just stop now lmao

[Naxos.2503]

I still feel Fragmentation shot, a skill that Explicitely shows the skill as an explosion, should be considered an Explosion. The amount of good it would do to engineers is unimaginable.

[Cirian.8917]

The Renegade's shortbow completed the Revenant for me. It's an awesome weapon. Filthy amounts of synergy with Shiro/Jalis utilities and trait lines. Extremely aggressive skirmishing weapon.

I'd love to see the pistols reworked a fair bit. When I had a go at reworking the kits, one skill I like that went bye-bye was the elixir gun's tranq dart. Since fragmentation grenades exist, why not put tranq darts that bleed and weaken into the pistol and get rid of the aoe? The pistols could be more of a single target killer, let's say with an "Armour Piercing Rounds" trait to add piercing if you want that.

Maybe do something like this, with an "automatic revolver" theme:1) tranquillizer rounds - a single round, inflicting bleeding and weakness2) poison rounds - burst of 3 rounds, inflicting poison3) electric rounds - burst of 3 rounds, inflicting blind and confusion4) burning rounds - burst of 3 rounds, inflicting burning5) paralysing rounds - burst of 3 rounds, inflicting daze and immobilise

Something like that. Obviously sticking to the condi theme. 3 damage skills, a defensive blind and an interrupt, nice general purpose package.

[Ghos.1326]

The one thing that would make Engineer main hand pistol significantly greater is a faster cast time to match its actual listed cast time of 1/2 of a second. Currently it's actually .8 seconds cast time. That would be a HUGE step in making the main hand Engineer Pistol good.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

frag shot used to be an aoe, but was deemed too op. or was nerfed for no particular reason. or they nerfed the wrong thing.

[Matoro.9708]

@"Cirian.8917" said:The Renegade's shortbow completed the Revenant for me. It's an awesome weapon. Filthy amounts of synergy with Shiro/Jalis utilities and trait lines. Extremely aggressive skirmishing weapon.

I'd love to see the pistols reworked a fair bit. When I had a go at reworking the kits, one skill I like that went bye-bye was the elixir gun's tranq dart. Since fragmentation grenades exist, why not put tranq darts that bleed and weaken into the pistol and get rid of the aoe? The pistols could be more of a single target killer, let's say with an "Armour Piercing Rounds" trait to add piercing if you want that.

Maybe do something like this, with an "automatic revolver" theme:1) tranquillizer rounds - a single round, inflicting bleeding and weakness2) poison rounds - burst of 3 rounds, inflicting poison3) electric rounds - burst of 3 rounds, inflicting blind and confusion4) burning rounds - burst of 3 rounds, inflicting burning5) paralysing rounds - burst of 3 rounds, inflicting daze and immobilise

Something like that. Obviously sticking to the condi theme. 3 damage skills, a defensive blind and an interrupt, nice general purpose package.

I agree, shortbow was so good I want engineer to have a version for the next e-specs.

If your kit changes do come in, I'd love to see the tranq darts replace frag shot. Its cast time is even good. All of the ideas feel solid, thanks!