Upcomming Potential Warhorn Changes

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

From here: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/85188/potential-future-balance-changes

@Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:Warrior

• Charge: This skill would only removes movement impairing conditions and then increases the damage of affected allies' next 2 attacks by 25% in addition to its previous effects. Increase swiftness duration from 10 seconds to 15 seconds. This skill becomes a blast finisher.
• Call to Arms: Removes 3 conditions from affected allies instead of specific conditions. Grants barrier in addition to vigor.
• Quick Breathing: Thinking of kicking re-working it a bit to pair with the warhorn skill changes so they feel more cohesive. Continues to increase number of targets for warhorn skills from 5 to 10 and causes warhorn skills to grant an additional boon instead of reducing the cooldown (Fury for Charge and Resistance for Call to Arms). Grant +120 Concentration.

So if these changes happen then if we spec into Tactics for warhorn then we get an offhand that: provides +25% damage to the next two attacks of our allies. Removes movement impairing condis, swiftness (perma it looks like), remove 3 condis of any type, grant barrier, grant vigor, potentially grant fury and potentially grant Resistance along with +120 Concentration.

How would you all incorporate this into your builds? Would you run Core, Berserker, or Spellbreaker? Warhorn+banners may become the new meta for Warriors in Raids and FotM.

[cryorion.9532]

This could lead to more support-oriented builds, in both WvW and PvE, which is nice. However, I would welcome fury and resistance boons on warhorn as baseline to encourage warhorn usage also in small scale/solo encounters (in all game modes). Tactics trait could increase target cap from 5 to 10 and provide adrenaline per affected ally, as it is now.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@cryorion.9532 said:This could lead to more support-oriented builds, in both WvW and PvE, which is nice. However, I would welcome fury and resistance boons on warhorn as baseline to encourage warhorn usage also in small scale/solo encounters (in all game modes). Tactics trait could increase target cap from 5 to 10 and provide adrenaline per affected ally, as it is now.

I think they are trying to give a reason to take the trait beyond the adrenaline and target cap though... If you are running small scale, or in OWPVE then as it is now you might not take it The extra concentration may be enough to take it. Other than increasing the condi removal, or increasing the boon durations the only other thing they could do is add more boons, healing, or barrier. They seem to want to go the Boons route while adding barrier to WH5.

In the main discussion thread I suggested instead of Fury on WH4 that we get retaliation. We get AoE fury from FGJ, and AoE Retaliation is still thematic for Charge. What are you thoughts on that?

[Smoosh.2718]

The minor traits of Tactics bug me, since they are focused mostly on reviving downed players. Making them totally useless when actually trying to support active players.I'd rather those minors were clumped into one trait and slapped in the middle and two new minor traits in its place.

Maybe replace one of them with something of the likes of 'Power of the Mighty' For each stack of Might, Grant your allies a small amount of health, Nothing major 30-60hp per might.
Would tie in quite well to the minor trait Inspiring Presence, the more might you have, the more might the might is going to give to those around you.

'Furious Cry' Grant your allies Fury and swiftness when you reach 50% HP Xs CD.

At least then the traits have a higher chance of being useful rather than wasted.

Warhorn changes could be nice to see.. but is it enough to make you take Warhorn over Shield? Is the barrier going to warrant dropping a 3 second block that could save your life?Till we see the figures on barrier numbers we wont know. But I'd love to see it in action... heck even make the warhorn if its good!

However... like others have said, addressing the GARBAGE F1 skill of the Sword ... needs to be done. It's dated, low damage and gets you killed if you get the horrible animation lock bug where you can not cancel the attack.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Smoosh.2718 said:The minor traits of Tactics bug me, since they are focused mostly on reviving downed players. Making them totally useless when actually trying to support active players.I'd rather those minors were clumped into one trait and slapped in the middle and two new minor traits in its place.

Maybe replace one of them with something of the likes of 'Power of the Mighty' For each stack of Might, Grant your allies a small amount of health, Nothing major 30-60hp per might.

Would tie in quite well to the minor trait Inspiring Presence, the more might you have, the more might the might is going to give to those around you.

'Furious Cry' Grant your allies Fury and swiftness when you reach 50% HP Xs CD.

At least then the traits have a higher chance of being useful rather than wasted.

Warhorn changes could be nice to see.. but is it enough to make you take Warhorn over Shield? Is the barrier going to warrant dropping a 3 second block that could save your life?Till we see the figures on barrier numbers we wont know. But I'd love to see it in action... heck even make the warhorn if its good!

However... like others have said, addressing the GARBAGE F1 skill of the Sword ... needs to be done. It's dated, low damage and gets you killed if you get the horrible animation lock bug where you can not cancel the attack.

Agreed on Flurry, go see my other thread on that for more details. But Warhorn is another weapon in need of updating. The barrier on WH5 would be group barrier, which for FotM or Raids may be a better option. You are right that the revive traits are usually major traits and not minor traits, and for a Tactics rework they should be make to conform with what other classes do. I would welcome a Lesser For Great Justice at 50% or 75% health to be a minor trait. Phalanx Strength would be nice if it healed people slightly like Might Makes Right, but for allies, and for a lesser amount.

[Smoosh.2718]

At least then.. that way Tactics will finally be a tactics trait line that is useful and isnt a total sacrifice.

We might get these changes like the promise of Swiss style Tournaments, a year late.

[RiyazGuerra.9203]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@cryorion.9532 said:This could lead to more support-oriented builds, in both WvW and PvE, which is nice. However, I would welcome fury and resistance boons on warhorn as baseline to encourage warhorn usage also in small scale/solo encounters (in all game modes). Tactics trait could increase target cap from 5 to 10 and provide adrenaline per affected ally, as it is now.

I think they are trying to give a reason to take the trait beyond the adrenaline and target cap though... If you are running small scale, or in OWPVE then as it is now you might not take it The extra concentration may be enough to take it. Other than increasing the condi removal, or increasing the boon durations the only other thing they could do is add more boons, healing, or barrier. They seem to want to go the Boons route while adding barrier to WH5.

In the main discussion thread I suggested instead of Fury on WH4 that we get retaliation. We get AoE fury from FGJ, and AoE Retaliation is still thematic for Charge. What are you thoughts on that?

I am really liking Anet's warhorn potential warhorn changes, especially the barrier.

While I agree with your point about AoE fury on WH4 is redundant due to FGJ, wouldn't stability be a better option and more thematically consistent with Charge?

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@RiyazGuerra.9203 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@cryorion.9532 said:This could lead to more support-oriented builds, in both WvW and PvE, which is nice. However, I would welcome fury and resistance boons on warhorn as baseline to encourage warhorn usage also in small scale/solo encounters (in all game modes). Tactics trait could increase target cap from 5 to 10 and provide adrenaline per affected ally, as it is now.

I think they are trying to give a reason to take the trait beyond the adrenaline and target cap though... If you are running small scale, or in OWPVE then as it is now you might not take it The extra concentration may be enough to take it. Other than increasing the condi removal, or increasing the boon durations the only other thing they could do is add more boons, healing, or barrier. They seem to want to go the Boons route while adding barrier to WH5.

In the main discussion thread I suggested instead of Fury on WH4 that we get retaliation. We get AoE fury from FGJ, and AoE Retaliation is still thematic for Charge. What are you thoughts on that?

I am really liking Anet's warhorn potential warhorn changes, especially the barrier.

While I agree with your point about AoE fury on WH4 is redundant due to FGJ, wouldn't stability be a better option and more thematically consistent with Charge?

It would be as thematic and consistent as retaliation. However, do you think that Anet wants to give warriors an AoE stability source on a 15s CD bearing in mind the list of changes in that thread were focused on how they would effect WvW?

I'm thinking a Axe/Horn of Sword/horn build with To The Limit and FGJ along with two banners. Core with Strength. Although a Str/Tactics/Bers might work. F1 ->Toot WH4 -> Decap ->BR ->Decap is looking good.

A Arms/Tact/Disc build with banners traited, shouts traited, sword traited, horn traited might be fun. Toot WH4 -> Final Thrust -> swap to LB -> Arcing Arrow looks like a good burst. I am interested in seeing if they tweak the Tactics Grandmaster traits when they do this. These warhorn buffs may be interesting on a Vigours Shouts build.

[RedShark.9548]

id really welcome the changes for wvw support warrior shoutbuild.BUT i really DONT want concentration in there, WHY give warrior such a USELESS stat.first of, warrior does not give out many boons.second, the boons they do give out are already long enough, increasing their duration wont do much, because they are either ripped by an enemy, or overwritten by someone else.those 120 statpoints are completely wasted and id much rather have either another stat increased, like healingpower (even tho the scaling on that isnt rly good, but still more usefull) or what id like the most to just keep the cooldown reduction.keeping the CDR lets me press more buttons while playing the game, in contrast to just giving me some passive statpoints, that just dumb it down more, especially something like concentration.

im already running a sword/warhorn+hammer shoutwarrior build in wvw and welcome all buffs to that.but pleaaase dont make me trade the cooldownreduction for something like concentration. thats DEFINATELY a nerf.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Yeah, the concentration seems a little out of place, unless they redo shouts to provide more boons. I guess it would work well with Powerful Synergy.

[RiyazGuerra.9203]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@RiyazGuerra.9203 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@cryorion.9532 said:This could lead to more support-oriented builds, in both WvW and PvE, which is nice. However, I would welcome fury and resistance boons on warhorn as baseline to encourage warhorn usage also in small scale/solo encounters (in all game modes). Tactics trait could increase target cap from 5 to 10 and provide adrenaline per affected ally, as it is now.

I think they are trying to give a reason to take the trait beyond the adrenaline and target cap though... If you are running small scale, or in OWPVE then as it is now you might not take it The extra concentration may be enough to take it. Other than increasing the condi removal, or increasing the boon durations the only other thing they could do is add more boons, healing, or barrier. They seem to want to go the Boons route while adding barrier to WH5.

In the main discussion thread I suggested instead of Fury on WH4 that we get retaliation. We get AoE fury from FGJ, and AoE Retaliation is still thematic for Charge. What are you thoughts on that?

I am really liking Anet's warhorn potential warhorn changes, especially the barrier.

While I agree with your point about AoE fury on WH4 is redundant due to FGJ, wouldn't stability be a better option and more thematically consistent with Charge?

It would be as thematic and consistent as retaliation. However, do you think that Anet wants to give warriors an AoE stability source on a 15s CD bearing in mind the list of changes in that thread were focused on how they would effect WvW?

There is room to play with the boon with respect to wvw balance. The number of stacks, duration, reassessing the cooldown, a wvw, pvp split from pve, etc.

It could be looked at as another way to enhance a warrior's contribution in wvw, giving them another role in the zerg's push.

I still prefer stability as the trait-boon for WH4, but I'll take your retaliation over fury in a heartbeat.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Another way to look at it is that other specs have group stability covered, and most classes have access to it, but retaliation is something that is not as easy to grant on a large scale. That and honestly I want another source of it outside of Spiked Armor.

[Virtuality.8351]

I would so much like to see Stability be added to Charge, so that people actually use it preemptively before clashing into melee, instead of afterward trying to get out of the hot zones. Nowadays, the skill is used more like how Guardian's 'Retreat!' is meant to be (yet mostly is not). Such inconsistency between the actual application of the skill and the intended function suggested by the text always makes me chuckle.

For Call to Arm, just add group Resistance, so that the weapon might actually be regarded viable.

[RiyazGuerra.9203]

Okay, in addition to retaliation / stability as an alternative, how about Aegis?Or, something even more radical, a new boon,

Prerequisite: For all the following options Quick Breathing must be traited

A. 'Nimble Stride': like Aegis but instead of a block there is a guaranteed evade or a chance-to-evade (50%, 60%, 75% ??? devs can play with this percentage to balance) a trap / mark / field. Does not trigger when pc is hit by projectile or melee,....that would be the purview of 'block'. This 'evade' would not draw on the pc's endurance resource. Wvw consideration: imagine a zerg push initiated by a cacophony of warhorns granting the charging zerg a means to counter the necro mark spam that is so common these days. Number of ally targets: 10

B. 'Minesweeper': boon where every enemy trap / mark / field that the boon-wielder traverses decreases the trap / mark / field's duration (10%, 15%, 20%, 25% ??? percentage chosen with balance concerns in mind) Number of ally targets: 10

C. 'Altruistic Sacrifice': Number of ally targets: 1...only applied to source. Boon wielder will traverse trap / mark / field and consume it, but taking double damage and duration. Number of traps / marks / fields consumed can be 1-3, with number chosen with balance concerns in mind.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

I don't think that will Happen. Aegis would be nice, but that is almost entirely the wheelhouse of the Guardian, and since they are talking about REMOVING Aegis from Tome of Courage in this update I so not think they'll slap it onto WH4 or WH5.

Bear in mind also they are proposing to put in a new boon already on WH4 that gives +25% damage on the next 2 attacks for all affected allies.

[RiyazGuerra.9203]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:I don't think that will Happen. Aegis would be nice, but that is almost entirely the wheelhouse of the Guardian, and since they are talking about REMOVING Aegis from Tome of Courage in this update I so not think they'll slap it onto WH4 or WH5.

Bear in mind also they are proposing to put in a new boon already on WH4 that gives +25% damage on the next 2 attacks for all affected allies.

Yeah I know it was unlikely but wanted to think outside the box with those suggestions.

While that '+25%-damage-increase-for-affected-allies-for-next-2-attacks' is nice, I would prefer another boon that is some form of damage mitigation for your allies, in addition to the proposed barrier, which I am really looking forward to. Call me crazy I am just really keen on a defensive-support warrior build .

[RiyazGuerra.9203]

@Virtuality.8351 said:I would so much like to see Stability be added to Charge, so that people actually use it preemptively before clashing into melee, instead of afterward trying to get out of the hot zones. Nowadays, the skill is used more like how Guardian's 'Retreat!' is meant to be (yet mostly is not). Such inconsistency between the actual application of the skill and the intended function suggested by the text always makes me chuckle.

For Call to Arm, just add group Resistance, so that the weapon might actually be regarded viable.

Thanks, I totally agree about the preemptive stability.

Group Resistance sounds reeeeaaal good too. If we were to assume several warhorn warriors would be 'casting' the group resistance and resistance stacks duration, then in order to keep the skill from being too powerful the skill duration, single use, would have to be very short. This would be fine, since it would still prove useful when mitigating the initial barrage of condis from the opposing zerg.

[Issette.3248]

@Smoosh.2718 said:The minor traits of Tactics bug me, since they are focused mostly on reviving downed players. Making them totally useless when actually trying to support active players.I'd rather those minors were clumped into one trait and slapped in the middle and two new minor traits in its place.

What I would really like to play as Minor traits:1) revive faster, give people around you might after rezz2) might gives you a bit of healing power. Every time you give somebody might, you also heal3) phalanx strength: give people around you might when you give yourself might (not sure if this should trigger when somebody else gives you might)

This makes warrior (again) a major source of might for groups. (Keep the duration as it is and only 5 targets.)It would give Heal warriors a constant source of healing. (What these heal builds actually miss the most.)Place for one new grandmaster trait. (No idea about that.)

Oh, back to topic: I like the changes. :-) a bit out of place, but as somebody who wants to play a support warrior, since shoutbow is dead, it's nice :-) gives me options for some new meme builds.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Rettan.9603 said:

@Smoosh.2718 said:The minor traits of Tactics bug me, since they are focused mostly on reviving downed players. Making them totally useless when actually trying to support active players.I'd rather those minors were clumped into one trait and slapped in the middle and two new minor traits in its place.

What I would really like to play as Minor traits:1) revive faster, give people around you might after rezz2) might gives you a bit of healing power. Every time you give somebody might, you also heal3) phalanx strength: give people around you might when you give yourself might (not sure if this should trigger when somebody else gives you might)

This makes warrior (again) a major source of might for groups. (Keep the duration as it is and only 5 targets.)It would give Heal warriors a constant source of healing. (What these heal builds actually miss the most.)Place for one new grandmaster trait. (No idea about that.)

Oh, back to topic: I like the changes. :-) a bit out of place, but as somebody who wants to play a support warrior, since shoutbow is dead, it's nice :-) gives me options for some new meme builds.

Out of place because warhorn was the last weapon we all thought they would touch right?

I think those minor trait changes you mention would be awesome, but what would the heal on might gain be like? Would the warrior also get healed? Phalanx Strength by default only works on might you give yourself, so moving it to a minor trait would not change that.

I can see in Raids or FotM with a Minion master present, a Berserker with Axe/Horn doing this: Throw Bolas -> Headbutt-> BMode->Decap->Charge->Decap->BR or To the limit ->Decap -> Call to Arms ->Decap.

If shouts are made to give adrenaline per affected ally instead of the flat 5 on Vigorous Shouts then this would continue with shout1->decap->shout2->decap filling in with Throw Bolas on recharge, shouts on recharge, WH4 or WH5 on recharge. Might be worth dropping Throw Bolas if having a third shout allowed you to spam more Decapitate.

So you could do DPS, while buffing allies, while also healing them through the rotation. Damn, that would be strong. Might be worth doing even if Vigorous Shouts never gets touched again, would just need to add in other attacks/double tap shouts.

[DKRathalos.9625]

I think what we need to see is indeed not just warhorn but alongside with tactics spec. I will talk from wvw standpoint, overall tactics is kind of "meh" especially the grandmaster traitDouble finisher: could potentially be good, for example blasting stealth or water at wvwVigorous Shouts (only 1000 heal, not so much compared to guardian/necro/scrapper healing)Phalanx Strength (I know this is popular back in the day when farm 40 fractal still around, but I don't think they used it for wvw, plus anet nerf it, and yeah facet from Herald is better I think combined with Empower [staff 4] Guardian, those 2 already give good source of might)

Right now no one want to choose tactic because it's not that good compared to the other spec.Power Zerk Warrior PvE: [strength] [Disc] [berserker]Condi Zerk Warrior PvE: [Arms] [Disc] [berserker]Spellbreaker PvE: [strength] [Disc] [spellbreaker]Spellbreaker WvW: [Defense] [Disc] [spellbreaker]

I think the core warrior still go for [strength] [Disc] [Tactic] in PvE but that is just because they don't have elite spec, if they want to equip elite spec they will sacrifice tactics for sure. For WvW core I think will people will definitely choose Defense over Tactic, but core warrior is not meta for zerg purpose.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@"DKRathalos.9625" said:I think what we need to see is indeed not just warhorn but alongside with tactics spec. I will talk from wvw standpoint, overall tactics is kind of "meh" especially the grandmaster traitDouble finisher: could potentially be good, for example blasting stealth or water at wvwVigorous Shouts (only 1000 heal, not so much compared to guardian/necro/scrapper healing)Phalanx Strength (I know this is popular back in the day when farm 40 fractal still around, but I don't think they used it for wvw, plus anet nerf it, and yeah facet from Herald is better I think combined with Empower [staff 4] Guardian, those 2 already give good source of might)

Right now no one want to choose tactic because it's not that good compared to the other spec.Power Zerk Warrior PvE: [strength] [Disc] [berserker]Condi Zerk Warrior PvE: [Arms] [Disc] [berserker]Spellbreaker PvE: [strength] [Disc] [spellbreaker]Spellbreaker WvW: [Defense] [Disc] [spellbreaker]

I think the core warrior still go for [strength] [Disc] [Tactic] in PvE but that is just because they don't have elite spec, if they want to equip elite spec they will sacrifice tactics for sure. For WvW core I think will people will definitely choose Defense over Tactic, but core warrior is not meta for zerg purpose.

Check the announcement on the tactics rework.

[otto.5684]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@"DKRathalos.9625" said:I think what we need to see is indeed not just warhorn but alongside with tactics spec. I will talk from wvw standpoint, overall tactics is kind of "meh" especially the grandmaster traitDouble finisher: could potentially be good, for example blasting stealth or water at wvwVigorous Shouts (only 1000 heal, not so much compared to guardian/necro/scrapper healing)Phalanx Strength (I know this is popular back in the day when farm 40 fractal still around, but I don't think they used it for wvw, plus anet nerf it, and yeah facet from Herald is better I think combined with Empower [staff 4] Guardian, those 2 already give good source of might)

Right now no one want to choose tactic because it's not that good compared to the other spec.Power Zerk Warrior PvE: [strength] [Disc] [berserker]Condi Zerk Warrior PvE: [Arms] [Disc] [berserker]Spellbreaker PvE: [strength] [Disc] [spellbreaker]Spellbreaker WvW: [Defense] [Disc] [spellbreaker]

I think the core warrior still go for [strength] [Disc] [Tactic] in PvE but that is just because they don't have elite spec, if they want to equip elite spec they will sacrifice tactics for sure. For WvW core I think will people will definitely choose Defense over Tactic, but core warrior is not meta for zerg purpose.

Check the announcement on the tactics rework.

I would reserve judgment after testing. It does seem better with better damage and sustain. I think with banners, core warrior will surely be better in PvE. I do not think it will be much different in sPvP, but maybe for WvW.

[Ruufio.1496]

AOE immob and permanent 50% damage bonus vs all scrappers (scrapper gets measily barrier from doing damage now).... LOL... gg.....

Any warrior with tactics is the biggest hardcounter towards a class (scrapper) that the game has ever seen. Not even thief ever countered mesmer so hard lol.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Ruufio.1496 said:AOE immob and permanent 50% damage bonus vs all scrappers (scrapper gets measily barrier from doing damage now).... LOL... gg.....

And 50% versus scourges.

[Red Haired Savage.5430]

Could see allot of warriors as anti counter to the mass barrier spam in WvW.