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Potential future Necro changes


EremiteAngel.9765

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@Virtuality.8351 said:

Necromancer
  • Sand Cascade: Reduce the barrier granted by this skill by 33% in WvW & PvP.
  • Sand Flare: Reduced the barrier granted by this skill by 25% in WvW.

This will give pugs a better change to fight against organized groups. I would suggest lowering the Base Healing/Barrier Value even further and increasing the Healing Power Coefficient instead, to reduce the group sustenance of Power Scourge while retain a spot for dedicated Support/Healing/Screening Scourge, which is nowadays still not much seen.

This is a direct nerf to the scourge's solo survivability, how do you address that? Let's not forget that scourge already lose the shroud which is the only way for the necromancer to mitigate damage where other profession often have access to more mobility, block, evade and other invulnerability.

Imagine all invuln/block skills and effects in the game replaced by a puny 1,5k barrier, do you think they would even be looked at by the players?

It's not by nerfing the scourge's support and personnal survivability that the zergs will take less scourges, if anything the zergs will stack more scourges when they will feel they are to frail while the scourge will only be viable in the vacuum of a zerg.

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@Dadnir.5038 said:

Necromancer
  • Sand Cascade: Reduce the barrier granted by this skill by 33% in WvW & PvP.
  • Sand Flare: Reduced the barrier granted by this skill by 25% in WvW.

This will give pugs a better change to fight against organized groups. I would suggest lowering the Base Healing/Barrier Value even further and increasing the Healing Power Coefficient instead, to reduce the group sustenance of Power Scourge while retain a spot for dedicated Support/Healing/Screening Scourge, which is nowadays still not much seen.

This is a direct nerf to the scourge's solo survivability, how do you address that? Let's not forget that scourge already lose the shroud which is the only way for the necromancer to mitigate damage where other profession often have access to more mobility, block, evade and other invulnerability.I agree. Howe about limiting my previously recommended solution to allies only and buff the Barrier on self instead?

Imagine all invuln/block skills and effects in the game replaced by a puny 1,5k barrier, do you think they would even be looked at by the players?

It's not by nerfing the scourge's support and personnal survivability that the zergs will take less scourges, if anything the zergs will stack more scourges when they will feel they are to frail while the scourge will only be viable in the vacuum of a zerg.It was actually never my intention to curl the presence of the Scourge class in WvW by making such suggestion.
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@EremiteAngel.9765 said:I hope they give us something back though if they were to reduce our OPness in those areas.The nerfs might be fine for large group fights but solo/small scale is going to become even weaker for us.

Or Scourges accept that having superior condition application AND superior barrier is a bit too much.Although I'd rather have Anet shove of some of the overpowered conditions instead of the sustain and convert Scourge into a support spec, as it should have been from the start.

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@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Zero.3871 said:if anet would just rework sand savant to create a trait that supports barrier apply would take out a lot of direct dmg because of number decrease and indirect dmg because of less range/less opportunity to hit.

Sand savant's coverage isn't an issue, nerfing/changing it won't have any positive changes on scourge and how it is perceived by other players. Scourge's players might try to argue that they need to do more things to achieve their results without sand savant, but in the end with or without sand savant the scourge will still be able to
overload the same number of players with conditions, damages, control effect all while supporting their allies.

balancing is about every class has same potential to act. and you described just what every class on every meta build can do. necro in special ALWAYS had all offensive AND defensive power on shroud/shade (class mechanic) skills while nothing outside of it. but thats another topic. you could bring some of the utility from shade skills to weapon skills and necro would EXACTLY be like all other classes, with tonnes of dmg, sustain, all over the place. thats not the issue with necro, its the general balancing in this game. wether this balancing is an issue or not depends on your personal preferrings.

but i am talking about its strenght in zergfihgts, and with less range and less power dmg the insta burst dmg will never come as hard as it comes now. so people have more space for movement and for reactions. thats all whats needed.

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@Nimon.7840 said:

@Axl.8924 said:They should nerf boons nerf dmg on scourge and make it a support and let us make core necro condi again #makenecrogreatagain.

Can a member of ANET please come here and explain their vision for necromancer? please? tell us what we are supposed to do in WVW if we are supposed to play because you are killing us in every mode. We are already barely viable in pve and now you nerf us into the ground.

Tbh.The proposed changes will change absolutely nothing about wvw meta

But yes, scourge already kinda falls off.I played wvw this weekend for quite a bit.And top 5 places in dmg done were always eles and revs.Then me(as reaper) and another scourge, then some revs.

What the proposed will changes do:Nerf solo scourges or scourges in very small groupsNot make scourge the support, but make it purely dmg - which in my opinion is the wrong approach to the problem as well as not the intention behind scourge.

And if its intended, that scourge is purely for dmg, then it needs some huge buffs for pve

Eles and revs being top top 5 sounds balanced to be honest, Since Weavers are specced for damage so if they don't do amazing damage then they are useless, and revs have dat hammer,Scourges like I've said, do decent amounts of damage, Barrier spam and Boon strips, I've been top DPS on scourge in WvW yesterday aswell as 2nd or 3rd on Strips the changes won't make that much of a difference except a little barrier loss for Scourge and everyone else

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@Mini Crinny.6190 said:Eles and revs being top top 5 sounds balanced to be honest, Since Weavers are specced for damage so if they don't do amazing damage then they are useless, and revs have dat hammer,Scourges like I've said, do decent amounts of damage, Barrier spam and Boon strips, I've been top DPS on scourge in WvW yesterday aswell as 2nd or 3rd on Strips the changes won't make that much of a difference except a little barrier loss for Scourge and everyone else

The crux of the issue isn't that the change will hurt the scourge in zergs, in fact they won't even be felt in zergs. The real issue is for solo play where the already lacking survivability take a hit. Individually a scourge isn't anything special, if ANet's dev start to eat at scourge's defense they will just become UP. ANet can easily reduce other profession's elite specs defenses because other professions have various way to defend themselve at their core. The scourge on another hand sacrifice it's shroud for the sand shades and unfortunately the shroud is the only defense mechanism given to the core necromancer.

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@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Mini Crinny.6190 said:Eles and revs being top top 5 sounds balanced to be honest, Since Weavers are specced for damage so if they don't do amazing damage then they are useless, and revs have dat hammer,Scourges like I've said, do decent amounts of damage, Barrier spam and Boon strips, I've been top DPS on scourge in WvW yesterday aswell as 2nd or 3rd on Strips the changes won't make that much of a difference except a little barrier loss for Scourge and everyone else

The crux of the issue isn't that the change will hurt the scourge in zergs, in fact they won't even be felt in zergs. The real issue is for solo play where the already lacking survivability take a hit. Individually a scourge isn't anything special, if ANet's dev start to eat at scourge's defense they will just become UP. ANet can easily reduce other profession's elite specs defenses because other professions have various way to defend themselve at their core. The scourge on another hand sacrifice it's shroud for the sand shades and unfortunately the shroud is the only defense mechanism given to the core necromancer.

I doubt anet focus on solo content in PvP or WvW since at the moment they only have PvP which is 5 man group play (I wouldn't say 2v2 is supported) or WvW which from where I see it, they mainly focus on large group play over roaming where Scourge is amazing

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For wvw i dont think these changes will matter too much to be honest that said the heavy barrier nerfs will hurt scourge alot in spvp if they get applied there as well.

Sand Cascade's Barrier is already pretty crappy in terms of amount and to cut it by a 1/3rd of what it is already is a massive hit. I would argue that the life force cost and cd of the skill is no longer fitting for the amount of barrier its going to provideYou could say some of the same for Sand Flare in terms of his cd.

Scourge was brought into the game ideally as a off support and was suppose to have more support given to it and more power taken away from it why this never happened im not sure.

I don't even main scourge and i think the barrier nerfs are a bit unjust here but thats just me at least for pvp. Even if we look at the fact that Sand Cascade can be extended via shades this still does not explain the hit to Sand Flare where the scourge needs to be standing next to those it wants to give it too which is much more of a risk. Not once have i ever thought "oh that darn barrier is just too much." Any time fighting as scourge.

I get what they are trying to do here for wvw in the instance where you have a high number of scourges together providing barrier and all but still.

The scepter nerfs are understandable though. Granted i still dont think they were crazy to start with but i see why they did it i suppose.

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Going to agree with the others about Scourge's solo/duo capability. If Devouring Darkness is an issue in zerg, keep 3 corruptions on main target while 1 or 2 on collateral targets. We're not saying that boon spam vs. corrupt is healthy to begin with, so maybe start giving support classes unique buffs like druid spirits, non-CC stability stack removal, aegis? If barrier sharing is an issue, make it weaker on non-caster. If F1-F5 are too loaded with debilitating conditions (looking at mesmer shatter here too), though condi clear haven't really been any issue in organised groups lately anyways, do at least give another burst attack on torch or utility. I mean, please do something to Serpent Siphon.

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Wasn't the nerf to devouring darkness kinda a terrible idea? its going to be hard to make core viable if you nerf stuff because of scourge and make core kitten.

Both of the nerfs to devouring darkness and feast of corruption are both nerfs to core, which core really doesn't need in WVW and spvp.

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Boys we can have hope:

Greetings fellow Tyrians,

We've been thinking about implementing the following changes and wanted to share them with you to hear your thoughts and feedback. We’re aiming to bring into line some of the more dominant builds and compositions of the current WvW meta so that new options can be brought to the table, so the bulk of the changes shared here are WvW-centric. This is not the full list of changes that are being considered for the next balance update.

"This is not the full list of changes"I really hope, we get a meta shakeup for pve.

It's really annoying:Condi bosses: mirage/renegadeCondi Bosses with adds: firebrandPower bosses: thief/Dragonhunter

And that for several patches now. Time to nerf those classes.

If you can't give new raid content, making drastic changes is much appreciated.You can create content by bringing whole new classes to raids, making them meta and making meta builds "only ok". That is like giving new content.

I have to say it again. I like it, that future balance updates can be discussed beforehand.What I don't like about this post, is that anet isn't asking for specific class feedback.Also: why not show the whole balance changes?

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@"Nimon.7840" said:Boys we can have hope:

Greetings fellow Tyrians,

We've been thinking about implementing the following changes and wanted to share them with you to hear your thoughts and feedback. We’re aiming to bring into line some of the more dominant builds and compositions of the current WvW meta so that new options can be brought to the table, so the bulk of the changes shared here are WvW-centric. This is not the full list of changes that are being considered for the next balance update.

"This is not the full list of changes"I really hope, we get a meta shakeup for pve.

It's really annoying:Condi bosses: mirage/renegadeCondi Bosses with adds: firebrandPower bosses: thief/Dragonhunter

And that for several patches now. Time to nerf those classes.

Im not so sure i agree hereFirebrand and Dragonhunter are strong classes not because their elite specs are over tuned they are strong because their core foundation is very solid and very strong.Guardian is a very very strong and stable profession all on its own. Its still used in other game modes and so any elite bonus stack ontop of it is strong.

The reason why scourge lacks is because core necromancer lacks, in its utility, its weapon skills, and its traits. Reaper is doing ok for the moment but reaper is literally over tuned and gimped into like 3 very specific traits right now. IF the reaper line itself gets a hard nerf it will be very crappy because core necro is crappy.

Both Reaper and Scourge lines needed or need to be over tuned because the core lines are in shambles the core weapon skills outside of axe maybe are in shambles and the utilities are still super outdated.

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@"Nimon.7840" said:Boys we can have hope:

Greetings fellow Tyrians,

We've been thinking about implementing the following changes and wanted to share them with you to hear your thoughts and feedback. We’re aiming to bring into line some of the more dominant builds and compositions of the current WvW meta so that new options can be brought to the table, so the bulk of the changes shared here are WvW-centric. This is not the full list of changes that are being considered for the next balance update.

"This is not the full list of changes"I really hope, we get a meta shakeup for pve.

It's really annoying:Condi bosses: mirage/renegadeCondi Bosses with adds: firebrandPower bosses: thief/Dragonhunter

And that for several patches now. Time to nerf those classes.

If you can't give new raid content, making drastic changes is much appreciated.You can create content by bringing whole new classes to raids, making them meta and making meta builds "only ok". That is like giving new content.

I have to say it again. I like it, that future balance updates can be discussed beforehand.What I don't like about this post, is that anet isn't asking for specific class feedback.Also: why not show the whole balance changes?

You did notice that the changes was WvW and pvp only?

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Latest updates:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/86662/future-potential-wvw-centric-balance-changes-september-6th-2019#latest

@"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said:Greetings again all,

Thanks for the feedback regarding the proposed changes posted last week.

Below you'll find a set of changes we're looking at which is WvW-centric, as well as a few modifications to some of the changes from the last thread. With these changes the objective is to bring the dominant builds and compositions into line and offer more build diversity to the existing meta. Because there's been some confusion, we want to clarify that we're continuing to balance for other game types, including (as some of you guessed) significant changes to the warrior's Tactics line as well as the necromancer's Death Magic line, ranger sword changes and more.

As before, this isn't the full set of changes we're preparing and this is not a call for general profession feedback.Here are a few questions to think about while looking over the potential changes:

  • Would your gameplay change as a result? How?
  • Do you feel these changes would improve or worsen the state of the game?
  • Are you looking forward to these potential changes? Why?
  • What are your concerns and the consequences you expect with this set of changes?

Here is what we're looking at. Previously posted and unchanged items are italicized at the bottom of each profession's section so that it should be easier to focus on the new and changed parts of this set of changes:

Items

  • Superior Rune of Antitoxin: Change it so that instead of increasing outgoing condition cleanses by one it instead increases incoming condition cleanses by one, thus only affecting the wielder, but allowing it to scale up with external cleanses.

Necromancer

  • Oppressive Collapse: This skill will require line of sight on the activation.
  • Sand Cascade: Reduce the base barrier granted by this skill by 33% in WvW & PvP, increase the healing power contribution by 20%, as the healing coefficient is already pretty strong.
  • Sand Flare: Reduce the base barrier granted by this skill by 25% in WvW, increase the healing power contribution by 33%.
  • Desert Shroud: Increase the base barrier granted by this skill by 10%, increase the healing power contribution by 15% and reduce the damage inflicted by this ability by 20% in WvW.
  • Sand Savant: We've wanted to address the target cap issue with this trait in WvW for a while, however it is an incredibly gnarly problem because this is a large functional change that would need to be preserved between game modes. This was why the cooldown split was made on this trait originally. We hear you that the trait is an issue and we're working on it. This is a tough case to crack in a manner that does not leave one mode suffering due to the changes made for another.
  • Feast of Corruption: Reduce damage by 20% in PvP & WvW. The existing split from PvP of corrupting 2 boons is brought to WvW. This ability continues to corrupt 3 boons in PvE.
  • Devouring Darkness: Reduce damage by 20% in PvP & WvW. The existing split from PvP of corrupting 2 boons is brought to WvW. This ability continues to corrupt 3 boons in PvE.
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@EremiteAngel.9765 said:Necromancer

  • Oppressive Collapse: This skill will require line of sight on the activation.
  • Sand Cascade: Reduce the base barrier granted by this skill by 33% in WvW & PvP, increase the healing power contribution by 20%, as the healing coefficient is already pretty strong.
  • Sand Flare: Reduce the base barrier granted by this skill by 25% in WvW, increase the healing power contribution by 33%.
  • Desert Shroud: Increase the base barrier granted by this skill by 10%, increase the healing power contribution by 15% and reduce the damage inflicted by this ability by 20% in WvW.
  • Sand Savant: We've wanted to address the target cap issue with this trait in WvW for a while, however it is an incredibly gnarly problem because this is a large functional change that would need to be preserved between game modes. This was why the cooldown split was made on this trait originally. We hear you that the trait is an issue and we're working on it. This is a tough case to crack in a manner that does not leave one mode suffering due to the changes made for another.
  • Feast of Corruption: Reduce damage by 20% in PvP & WvW. The existing split from PvP of corrupting 2 boons is brought to WvW. This ability continues to corrupt 3 boons in PvE.
  • Devouring Darkness: Reduce damage by 20% in PvP & WvW. The existing split from PvP of corrupting 2 boons is brought to WvW. This ability continues to corrupt 3 boons in PvE.

When devs crash themselves 2 times in row into a wall...None of that will change the state of PvP/WvW, if anything there will still be more scourges into the zergs and the underlying issues that lead players to complains will still lead players to complain.

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@Dadnir.5038 said:

Necromancer
  • Oppressive Collapse: This skill will require line of sight on the activation.
  • Sand Cascade: Reduce the base barrier granted by this skill by 33% in WvW & PvP, increase the healing power contribution by 20%, as the healing coefficient is already pretty strong.
  • Sand Flare: Reduce the base barrier granted by this skill by 25% in WvW, increase the healing power contribution by 33%.
  • Desert Shroud: Increase the base barrier granted by this skill by 10%, increase the healing power contribution by 15% and reduce the damage inflicted by this ability by 20% in WvW.
  • Sand Savant: We've wanted to address the target cap issue with this trait in WvW for a while, however it is an incredibly gnarly problem because this is a large functional change that would need to be preserved between game modes. This was why the cooldown split was made on this trait originally. We hear you that the trait is an issue and we're working on it. This is a tough case to crack in a manner that does not leave one mode suffering due to the changes made for another.
  • Feast of Corruption: Reduce damage by 20% in PvP & WvW. The existing split from PvP of corrupting 2 boons is brought to WvW. This ability continues to corrupt 3 boons in PvE.
  • Devouring Darkness: Reduce damage by 20% in PvP & WvW. The existing split from PvP of corrupting 2 boons is brought to WvW. This ability continues to corrupt 3 boons in PvE.

When devs crash themselves 2 times in row into a wall...None of that will change the state of PvP/WvW, if anything there will still be more scourges into the zergs and the underlying issues that lead players to complains will still lead players to complain.

Agreed. Corrupts and barriers are just too good and important to pass up.Builds may change but Scourges will remain a core backbone of any blob.I'm glad though that they heard us and are giving us increased healing stats contribution in return.Would make things more balanced I guess. More healing, less damage. More damage, less healing.I'm just not sure if those percentage changes are fair or no - not good with numbers.

I don't think they should have touched untraited FoC though. Untraited single target corrupt doesn't actually have much impact in a blob fight.Traited FoC nerf is fair I guess.

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@EremiteAngel.9765 said:

@"Dadnir.5038" said:When devs crash themselves 2 times in row into a wall...None of that will change the state of PvP/WvW, if anything there will still be more scourges into the zergs and the underlying issues that lead players to complains will still lead players to complain.

Agreed. Corrupts and barriers are just too good and important to pass up.Builds may change but Scourges will remain a core backbone of any blob.I'm glad though that they heard us and are giving us increased healing stats contribution in return.Would make things more balanced I guess. More healing, less damage. More damage, less healing.I'm just not sure if those percentage changes are fair or no - not good with numbers.

I don't think they should have touched untraited FoC though. Untraited single target corrupt doesn't actually have much impact in a blob fight.Traited FoC nerf is fair I guess.

I'll be honest, I'm not "glad" that they "heard us" because a lot of "us" lead ANet devs away from the real issue. Sand savant is fine and the numbers on the effects are fine, what is not fine and need to be addressed is the proc of manifest sand shade that himself proc countless effect as well. That is the real issue, that is why people stacks scourges over and over again.

You want to fix scourge in PvP/WvW?

  • Remove manifest sand shade proc on F2-F5
  • Change F5 into a defensive/support skill that deal no damage.
  • And consider changing boon corrupting effect on weapon into boon ripping effect.

And here scourge become a good support option that you don't want to necessarily stack as much as you do right now since you'll end up losing in damage output.

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