Did Jormag just offer an alliance?

[Zola.6197]

@"Randulf.7614" said:It will be later since the prologue is set elsewhere. Tne prologue might give is a sneak peak of the "new world order" the devs have hinted at though and that might tie into the dialogue or symbolise factions splitting up in the World now the Dragons presence is diminishing (or both)

My guess is that we’ll see a big shift in the state of Charr politics/society, or at least introduce the tensions that will set that up down the line. With Kralk gone I could see things devolving between the Legions, or their treaty with the humans dissolving. I do like the idea of the Legions struggling against one another for power.

[Michram.6853]

Jormag knows will die if won't cooperate.

Do you remember the cinematic from Flashpoint when two orbs of Primordus and Jormag both destroyed themselves?

Now it's a real chance it can happen, and Jormag seems to just have a will to survive, needs our help too.

Jormag is a bad guy, but is not stupid. Either Jormag or destruction - the choice seems simple.

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

@RyuDragnier.9476 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:The updates might be more frequent if they aren’t having to release full blown maps, but parts of maps that eventually lead to the map being complete.Back when they did that in LS2, we got updates every 2 weeks.

True, but they needed a three month break between episodes 4 and 5 to make that work, plus another month (partially due to the holiday) between 7 and 8. Even with that extra time, the maps we got as a result were pretty barren. I wouldn't want to go back to that.

[Poormany.4507]

@Arden.7480 said:

@"Regh.8649" said:Maybe Jormag is aware of Primordius eminent awakening (hence the rising red on the logo) and he's trying to create a temporary aliance with aurene, to ensure his survival.

Aurene and the tyrian races are in no place to deny the offer if they want to preserve the world. It's like Jormag in telling us "accept my offer and I'll help you". Maybe we'll be seeing the most epic battle of Ice and Fire.

Not a pro on Lore so...

Very possible

Also agree it may be an alliance against Primordus, since if Jormag is waking up again, chances are Primordus is not far behind since the two were knocked out at the same time. That would put the PC at a really hard decision if it means risking an alliance with Jormag and standing a chance against Primordus or Primordus becoming active again and having to deal with fighting 2 elder dragons at the same time.

If not, my next best guess is Aurene since it would be easy to exploit her love for those around her, especially her champion, to force her to join him. We've already seen her be willing to die to save the PC against Kralk, she may choose to join Jormag (at least temporarily) if it means saving her champion at the moment.

[Tyson.5160]

@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

@RyuDragnier.9476 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:The updates might be more frequent if they aren’t having to release full blown maps, but parts of maps that eventually lead to the map being complete.Back when they did that in LS2, we got updates every 2 weeks.

True, but they needed a three month break between episodes 4 and 5 to make that work, plus another month (partially due to the holiday) between 7 and 8. Even with that extra time, the maps we got as a result were pretty barren. I wouldn't want to go back to that.

Very true, but we could see something like a month and a half between releases rather than 3 months due to how they can build their maps. Also sounds like they could add other things are as well as we are now up to 4 teams rather then 3.

[Tyson.5160]

@Arden.7480 said:Jormag knows will die if won't cooperate.

Do you remember the cinematic from Flashpoint when two orbs of Primordus and Jormag both destroyed themselves?

Now it's a real chance it can happen, and Jormag seems to just have a will to survive, needs our help too.

Jormag is a bad guy, but is not stupid. Either Jormag or destruction - the choice seems simple.

I mean, I get that there could be other means to destroy Jormag, ie the fire magic of Braham’s Bow, but if Jormag is defeated from this saga, won’t we need Primordus? Let’s say we don’t end using Primordus energy for Jormag, we are going to need some of that ice energy to combat Primordus. Unless we acquire a replacement for Jormag to combat Primordus, which we will need if we try to kill Jormag.

[draxynnic.3719]

It has been observed a few times that Jormag has been the only Elder Dragon who seems to be willing to accept and empower followers who still retain their free will.

There is an outside possibility that the events around Jormag's rise were largely a misunderstanding. Keep in mind that the norn are one of the most belligerent of the races, possibly even more so on an individual basis than the charr in GW1's time: most norn back then wouldn't even talk until you beat them in combat. Jormag might well have beat the norn back primarily in what he considered to be self-defence, and then he accepted the Sons of Svanir because they seemed to be the only norn who'd accept him - thereby linking him in the minds of other norn to an organisation of misogynists with a tendency to cause trouble for other norn.

I don't think that's likely, but it is possible.

A possibly more likely scenario is that events since the start of GW2 have shown Jormag that what he might previously have regarded as inconsequential is now proving to be more powerful than the Elder Dragons, at least taken individually. We've seen three Elder Dragons killed, two nearly killed, and one raised up... all primarily through the actions of mortals (Balthazar played a part in some of that, but it was mortals that made the Machine, and it was mortals that ultimately took down Kralkatorrik). With Aurene as an example that Elder Dragons and mortals could work together, it's possible that Jormag sees value in an alliance, or at least a truce.

[Kalavier.1097]

I don't think Jormag is offering an Alliance. But it's manipulation.

Think about it, every dragon has a different approach to mortals. Jormag's always been a manipulation and corruption. "Offering power" and such. Mordremoth sought to totally control the Sylvari, and destroy the other races. Primordus doesn't care at all, making destroyers himself instead of corrupting others. Kralkatorrik sought to consume or destroy everything. Zhaitan wanted to make everything into Risen.

Jormag's speech is a very clearly constructed for the commander. "You do not fear death. You fear something far worse. You fear outliving the ones you swore to protect. You fear the day your children no longer feel the chill of the frost or the warmth of the flame. It is this fear that is your enemy, not I. The prison in which all races of Tyria suffer. But you need not fear me, champion, for I can set you free. Join me, and you shall have the strength to protect your people in the trials to come. Stand against me, and you stand alone. "

He/she/whatever is hitting on a few things we know of the commander. The commander doesn't fear death at all, but the death of their allies. The commander, every time they stood completely alone, fell and failed. Jormag is hitting on that, as I see it. "Join me and you'll have more strength to save your friends. You'll never be alone. Don't join me... and you'll be alone and unable to save them."

Unless anet does a (possibly) interesting twist, I'm seeing it as manipulation.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

One of the reasons I'm hesitant to label it manipulation targeting the races and leave it at that, is that the announcement had made a repeated point to state that Jormag is giving a new look at the world's status quo and is going to adapt to it.

So the idea of it trying to offer an alliance with mortals, or even manipulate Aurene into joining Jormag, is a much more interesting and "adapting to new status quo" concepts.

[Derkojote.1957]

For my part, this hole Idea of Jormag making nice in any way reminds me of the Turtle and Scorpion. It may be that its intent is to survive but its nature will be to destroy no mater what. Even if it did buddy up with every one to defat Primordus it will then get an infusion of Magic as will Aurene but its Nature has fundamentally not changed as Aurenes has so its instinct will be to lash out, probably by making more Ice brood by force, mile thick sheets of ice over everything north of the equator and turning the Champion in to a finger puppet, where as our little buddy{Aurene} runs off and has a Dragon Melt down someplace ells, safe for the world. For my part I will plan for the worst, {Bring all my faverit toys and all my friends with there toys} Hope for the best, (Laugh about the hole thing while sipping mojitos on a beach under the shade of a palm tree as Jormag and Aurene lament her Mother over what ever the Dragons version of Rum and Beer shooters is). Just a thought.

[Randulf.7614]

Some background exposition here

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/releases/september-04-2019/

Apart from Jormag noticing the new status quo and coming to us - "dreaming of the Tyria that could be at the expense of the Tyria that is" - I note things I hadn't picked up before. Kralks second sphere = Fury? Aurene is the Dragon of Light.

"The Elder Dragons aren't what we thought they were"

[Teratus.2859]

Despite Mordremoth being the dragon of minds, Jormag has always been the most manipulative and devious of the Dragons.

Jormag doesn't flat out corrupt his minions by dominating them like the other dragons we've seen so far.Zhaitan would murder his subjects then raise them against their will.Kralkatorrik would brand his minions and enslave them to his will.Mordremoth dominates his minions minds and twists them to his will.

Jormag on the other hand seduces its minions, makes them serve it willingly and corrupts them with their consent, believing that they are being empowered by the dragon not corrupted and enslaved.In many ways this makes Jormag far more malicious and dangerous, should a large number of people believe it's lies and false promises it could lead to massive numbers falling to Jormags ranks and rapidly growing it's army of icebrood.We could very well see this happen with large numbers of the Flame Legion as Wooden Potatoes claimed in his recent videos, becoming the Frost Legion and causing no end of problems in Charr society as they infultrate and seduce more Charr into the ranks of the Dragon.The Norn already suffering this very same problem with the Sons of Svanir.

This is what Jormag does best, it divides and then it conquers.

[Kalavier.1097]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:One of the reasons I'm hesitant to label it manipulation targeting the races and leave it at that, is that the announcement had made a repeated point to state that Jormag is giving a new look at the world's status quo and is going to adapt to it.

So the idea of it trying to offer an alliance with mortals, or even manipulate Aurene into joining Jormag, is a much more interesting and "adapting to new status quo" concepts.

Ah. That information I was lacking. Would make sense to try to get the commander on their side though. A very popular individual starting to talk about Jormag being a good thing would rattle the world.

[Michram.6853]

It was confirmed in the Magazine the spheres of magics of some Dragons and Jormag's are Ice and Persuasion.

No good...

[torben.1532]

Perhaps he is offering all wvw pvp fractals and raids players who want content.Unfortunately anet and casuals chose to accept the alliance but the players didn‘t

[Michram.6853]

@torben.1532 said:Perhaps he is offering all wvw pvp fractals and raids players who want content.Unfortunately anet and casuals chose to accept the alliance but the players didn‘t

It's lore section.

[CETheLucid.3964]

@Kalavier.1097 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:One of the reasons I'm hesitant to label it manipulation targeting the races and leave it at that, is that the announcement had made a repeated point to state that Jormag is giving a new look at the world's status quo and is going to adapt to it.

So the idea of it trying to offer an alliance with mortals, or even manipulate Aurene into joining Jormag, is a much more interesting and "adapting to new status quo" concepts.

Ah. That information I was lacking. Would make sense to try to get the commander on their side though. A very popular individual starting to talk about Jormag being a good thing would rattle the world.

Maybe we can ultimately get Jormag on our side. Maybe together with Aurene we can fix Jormag if they're suffering from a similar torment condition that Kralkatorrik had going without killing them.

Maybe Jormag's case isn't as bad as Kralkatorrik's was, and with Aurene being able to fix magic entanglement in a way no other ED can now maybe we don't have to find too many other replacements if we can just manage to "fix" the ones that exist at present.

[doogal.9368]

Wow....had to watch it again after reading so many fun replies...

I like the primordus talk.

“Stand against me and you stand alone.”

Tough to make of it.

Like he’s aware of primordus’ status .... and that multiple dragons are falling.

“We’re comin’ for ya Footsteps!” (Name that movie)

[Aylpse.6280]

For anyone who played Rift, this is very reminiscent of Cruica. I highly doubt Jormag is trustworthy but with a voice like that s/he can icebrood me any day.

[Michram.6853]

@Aylpse.6280 said:For anyone who played Rift, this is very reminiscent of Cruica. I highly doubt Jormag is trustworthy but with a voice like that s/he can icebrood me any day.

right?! :D

[Telwyn.1630]

Despite Mordremoth being the dragon of minds, Jormag has always been the most manipulative and devious of the Dragons.

Jormag doesn't flat out corrupt his minions by dominating them like the other dragons we've seen so far.Zhaitan would murder his subjects then raise them against their will.Kralkatorrik would brand his minions and enslave them to his will.Mordremoth dominates his minions minds and twists them to his will.

Jormag on the other hand seduces its minions, makes them serve it willingly and corrupts them with their consent, believing that they are being empowered by the dragon not corrupted and enslaved.In many ways this makes Jormag far more malicious and dangerous, should a large number of people believe it's lies and false promises it could lead to massive numbers falling to Jormags ranks and rapidly growing it's army of icebrood.We could very well see this happen with large numbers of the Flame Legion as Wooden Potatoes claimed in his recent videos, becoming the Frost Legion and causing no end of problems in Charr society as they infultrate and seduce more Charr into the ranks of the Dragon.The Norn already suffering this very same problem with the Sons of Svanir.

This is what Jormag does best, it divides and then it conquers.

Accept we'll see female charr in that Legion if that happens. Sad I love female charr and want to know where the flame legions female charr are at so I can free them.

[Dondarrion.2748]

Yes, the type of alliance where you join forces and stand aside and let Jormag do what it wants, and if you try to interfere, Jormag will kill you. Which was the other option he offered up front.

[Regh.8649]

@"Dondarrion.2748" said:Yes, the type of alliance where you join forces and stand aside and let Jormag do what it wants, and if you try to interfere, Jormag will kill you. Which was the other option he offered up front.

You just don't go to a parley and not negociate terms!

"Listen here Jormag Pal, you do it or we'll split your head open like we did to your other three cousins eh?"

I'm confident we can find a middle ground here.

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

I honestly hate this 'domain' stuff. It is so... choking out possible developements.

That said, why is everyone convinced that the dragons are evil?Zhaitan wanted to create a world without dying, without loss. The risen are not pretty, but they keep on with their lifes.Primordus wants a world, where his fire creatures can roam freely.Mordremoth wanted a world where every mind is connected - thing the possibilities!Kralk wanted a world of crystal, beautiful, hardy creatures free from pain and fear.Jormag wants a world of strenght, with noone freezing to death.

yes, from our POV they are evil, but from theirs?

[Randulf.7614]

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:I honestly hate this 'domain' stuff. It is so... choking out possible developements.

That said, why is everyone convinced that the dragons are evil?Zhaitan wanted to create a world without dying, without loss. The risen are not pretty, but they keep on with their lifes.Primordus wants a world, where his fire creatures can roam freely.Mordremoth wanted a world where every mind is connected - thing the possibilities!Kralk wanted a world of crystal, beautiful, hardy creatures free from pain and fear.Jormag wants a world of strenght, with noone freezing to death.

yes, from our POV they are evil, but from theirs?

Because from our POV they are evil is a good enough reason. Behind every description you list is agenda of pure domination, enslavement and corruption to their cause with no room for exception. No allowances for free will or other ways of living.

This isn't a case of us letting them carry on - the Dragons and the free world are not compatible. The Dragons do not allow for choice and it is that immorality, it is that corruption they inflict which labels them as evil. We have gone past the point of them being mere forces of nature as well.

Their POV doesn’t really matter since coexistence is impossible and they will destroy either outright or by corruption.