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Future Potential WvW-centric Balance Changes - September 6th 2019


Irenio CalmonHuang.2048

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@"Zlater.6789" said:The warrior warhorn changes feel clunky.

Fury and resistance are good choices. But there are some problems.

The coupling of resistance, condition cleanse and barrier doesn't make sense, you only need 1 or the other. Make it resistance base line, give it a long duration and remove the barrier and condition cleanse portion of the skill.

Barrier is a bad defensive choice anyway because it's not thematically appropriate for warrior. Consider making it protection instead. I'd also urge against aoe stability, we don't need that kind of power creep via boon spread in the other game modes. Chaos Chrono and FB is enough proof for that.

10-25% damage on the next 2 attacks basically makes this a meaningless bonus effect because it will get wasted on small packets of damage. Why don't you make this interesting? Make it an effect that scales off your stats. For example:

Increases outgoing damage of nearby allies by (concentration/ 35) % for (concentration/ 60) seconds.

Overall warhorn just feels like a mishmash if different effects. It lacks any identity.

I think the intent on resistance, barrier, and condi cleanse is this: What condis you don't get rid of, or the incoming condis don't take away from the barrier, so you get a strong damage negation versus both condi and physical damage.

As to the damage boost on WH4, I believe that are making it the next 2 attacks is to avoid "Sic'em" scenarios, but if they are dropping it to 10% in WvW/PvP then there should be no problem with it being all attacks in a window of time, something like 2s for WvW/PvP and 4s in PvE. That way it does not get wasted as smaller damage packets.

@Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 (pinging you here as well to raise this awareness)The warrior forum is ambivalent, or even slightly displeased depending on who you ask, with the Fury on WH4 and feel that another boon like retaliation or stability would be better suited. It would balance out FB losing an Aegis from ToC.

It would help to change the Warhorn tunes to make it more obvious to teammates which skill just got used without having to glance away from the battle.

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@Lightning Xv.8705 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:check out the window in the top right, total damage is the left number while damage per second is the one in parenthesis. Notice that it spikes up to 89.2k damage per second from the shade bomb alone. It's very WeAk AnD pAtHeTiC, aBsOlUtElY lAuGhAbLe

Show a video of any other class pulling that kind of spike damage if you want to be taken seriously

Lets see. You dumped a full bomb on a group that just stood still and took it without trying to move. So basically a dummy parse. Which is unrealistic damage since the conditions required to pull it off aren't reliable. Possible yes but not a norm. Your 80k burst lasts less than a second and then it plummets rapidly. Which is why in the end of both clips you're being beat by a weaver despite your 0mG BuRsT.

There is a maximum possible total damage to be dealt against a group that doesn't pay attention. Your 34 man squad's DPS is lacking which allows you and the weaver to deal majority of it. A better group bomb would have much more balanced numbers across the board instead of two people pretty much carrying. You're losing hardly any damage to invuln frames from downs because of this and since they didn't move all your aoe's struck the maximum possible targets for the full durations.

Hows about some dps videos not in t4 against people who aren't sleeping. Might be able to take you seriously then.

So you don't have a video that shows another class with 80k+ spike dps then?

And I guess stealth bombing is something you've never tried @.@

I get that you don't want sand savant nerfed, but that's because you don't know how to use the class to its full potential. No worries, I got you <3

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@"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said:Items

  • Superior Rune of Antitoxin: Change it so that instead of increasing outgoing condition cleanses by one it instead increases incoming condition cleanses by one, thus only affecting the wielder, but allowing it to scale up with external cleanses.

Engineer

  • Purge Gyro: Reduce the number of cleansing pulses from 5 to 3 in WvW. Pending the superior rune of antitoxin change, this may stay at 5 cleansing pulses.
  • Sneak Gyro: Increase the cooldown of this ability from 45 to 75 60 seconds in WvW.
  • Corona Burst: The existing split from PvP of reduced might gain is brought to WvW. Reduced the damage of this ability by 20% in PvP and WvW.
  • Holographic Shockwave: Reduced range from 600 to 300.
  • Impact Savant: See if there is a way to include condition damage on this trait globally. Reduce the vitality loss of this trait from 300 to 180 in WvW and PvP.
  • Chemical Field: This skill is replaced by Detection Pulse (from the old Sneak Gyro elite toolbelt) as the toolbelt skill for Purge Gyro.

Purge Gyro: I really think cleaning pulses should stay at 5 considering antitoxin rework.Sneak Gyro: As said previously, I think 60 cd is okay.Corona Burst: Well too much nerf, it's either reduced might gain or the damage but not both. 20% less damage is already important (-93.8 damage point) considering the wiki. Would say -15% and keep the 2 might.Holographic Shockwave: Again 300 maybe too low, why not 400/450 range? It's still -20%. This skill is important too maintain some foes far from you through interrupt (launch foes).Impact Savant: I think it's a good change, if now damage + condis are converted to barrier, it's a good defensive help. Especially if your holo is burning based.Chemical Field: Good change, that's stealth proof skill is very helpful against those perma stealth thiefs.I really think holo is overnerfed, already previously nerfed with the overheat... It's a class of high damage for high risk not low damage for high risk.

Asked it before, and saw some players above mentioning it: Consider reworking Engineer turret, for WvW but also PvE and PvP. Those are really in the need of a buff. Several threads cover the topic: Increase resistance, vulnerable to only "piercing" projectiles, can stack boons on them (would be really helpful), overcharge restored.... And a kind of real Elite, like a laser / electro magnetic-turret instead of supply or the annoying mortar (should be direct shot instead of all targetted). Can attract enemies and then deliver an electric shockwave, inflicting daze and vulnerabilities..... Anything is possible. Can't recommend enough to take a look on those turrets thread. Also I find the hammer very slow, I mean the cooldown of its skill are just so looonnngg. We don't even have an hammer skills recharge reducing trait! It reminds me elementalist glyphs! Pistols of engineer need help too having a proper role. Rifle is very nice when used as holosmith, but frankly if used as core with turrets or kits it's bad. Elixir kit is very weak compared to top notch like bomb/mine kits.

The second thing: Nerf those red circles of death necros. (Ghastly Breach) Enough of seeing only them in WvW for several years. They should disappear to let the place to more diversity of builds and professions. Currently WvW is 40% scourge, 40% Firebrand and 20% of other classes.

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@"otto.5684" said:

Lastly, I really hope that your balance design is not based on two random Zerg mobs, uneven in number, in an unstructured environment using non-standardized gear slugging it out. You will never ever balance that kitten.

What he said, assuming otto.5684 meant "your balance design is not based on equalizing two random blobs uneven in number." Skill should be the only metric capable of achieving that.

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So three main concerns

1 don't change holographic shockwave. the casting time and the fact that it gets interrupted so easily is enough of a handicap. plus people need to learn to dodge roll its not hard to avoid.

2 changes to rune of antitoxin if you are going to change that you are going to need to adjust the condi in the game. I can give you a list of classes that have very limited condi clears but you already know them all because you made them. frankly most of my deaths are at the hands of the scourges AOE or other condi. Hell you can make a power scourge and they are still OP on condi and strips.

  1. the changes in damage from the scourges is a start but frankly corrupts don't matter when scrappers can just turn them right back into boons. so at the end of the day if the scourge isn't reworked from top to bottom there really is no way to slow them down because barrier reductions don't matter when squads of 20 are running 8 scourges and you just get additional barriers.
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@"DeadlySynz.3471" said:

Then the other change.. devouring darkness this makes no sense. The community certainly is mostly divided when it comes to feedback which is why Anet really shouldn't be listening to us at all. There is one thing we can all agree on though, boon spam is completely and utterly out of control. It is what breaks builds, like completely breaks them. Then we see the change to devouring darkness, reducing boon corrupt from 3 to 2... I mean really...... really.... Then to make matters worse the Guardian is still running around with that skill that converts 5 conditions to boons on 5 people (functions like an elite skill), yet it sits on a 12 second cool down. Everyone ever who has opened their mouth about feedback has specifically stated numerous time "boon spam is out of control", so a change to devouring darkness converting 2 boons instead of 3 makes less than zero sense.

What he said. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me if you're NOT going to "balance" those classes converting conditions to boons. Devouring Darkness only converts 40 boons (per necro) per 60 second large group encounter because the boon spam is there to begin with. I mean, you want to do both rather than one, right? Then you lower to burden on servers and avoid turning WvW into an unmitigated boon swamp.

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@Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:

Necromancer

  • Sand Flare: Reduce the base barrier granted by this skill by 25% in WvW, increase the healing power contribution by 33%.

I hope you increase the base of self healing of Sand Flare in does to the Scourge itself, to make up for the reduced barrier it gives.As any other form of scourge that doesn't use healing power is getting a straight nerf to its recovery.

Increase the base self healing by 15-20%

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There a few major problem with anet balancing for wvw mostly with FB and scorge class. These 2 classes have become so requirement for any type of real game play in wvw that it makes both the player base toxic as well as any balancing dev who keeps promoting it. FB problem is it has all of the boons as well as all of the stab support in gw2. This is not a core gurd problem this is a FB problem.

The thing about scorge is its aimed to be an support class who also has the best condi dmg AND strong power dmg on its support classe effect. Its so imbalanced that it makes the devs hypocrite of them self for ever other classes balancing up to this point. This class alone is why you saw massive population die offs as its desultory any type of builds that are outside of the meta to the point of toxic from the player base who are playing the meta as well as toxic from the players who do not want to only play meta.

The balancing in gw2 is bad and inconsistent FB and scorges are the worst of the worst of this. This game would be better off with out these classes you realty cant say that about any thing else in the gw2 game.

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the change to revs gaze of Darkness is goodIf you make a visible path for enemies of hammer skill2 there is no dps reduction needed because its clear visible , instead increase the damage on the 3rd impactthe hammer is already very slow ..... reducing dps makes it unplayable because we dont have permanent 25 might stacks anymore and we cant deal permanent 25 stack fo vulnerability on enemies ...and it already fails very often duo to the terrain .... maybe you should rework the skill so it will hit to 100% uneffected by terrain

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First thank you Irenio and team. Taking the time to listen to feedback goes a long way here in the community. Overall the suggested changes seem fair and reasonable and I would be excited to give them a shot. I know that at this time you are not looking for general class feedback, but in the future it would be really nice to have some dedicated time for each profession where the community could pick out and have the devs address the top 1-3 issues for that class. Not everything would have to be a full rework but perhaps small changes that have fallen through the cracks over the years that could easily breath new life into some of the professions. Again, thank you and look forward to this type of communication in the future.

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@fewfield.7802 said:

@Elric.4713 said:I guess you're set on destroying Rev hammer in only game mode it's actually good. Oh well...

Is that your good reason to not touch the hammer rev which is doing too high range dmg right now ?Are you actually playing WvW ?Do you know anything about pirateship and how it's so boring?

The skill doesn’t need the type of nerf it’s getting. It’s getting a functionality nerf across ALL game modes that will reduce its intended function in ALL game modes (intended function is high, slow, AoE damage at far range).

Coalescence Of Ruin just needs a skill split damage reduction on the 3rd impact to be equal to the damage on 2nd impact for WVW ONLY. This would be exactly what this change is going to do anyway in WvW based on what they’ve suggested here. The entire skill should NOT get adjusted to be “2nd impact damage” in every game mode. It’s not a buff in PvP or PvE and will just worsen the already underperforming hammer in those game modes. When you take hammer you take it because you want to do high, slow damage at 1200 range and NO other reason

Also Scourge is the main reason for pirate ship. Hammer Rev only does well because of Scourge. It’s not nearly as strong in “Push” metas.

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Coalescence Of Ruin just needs a skill split damage reduction on the 3rd impact to be equal to the damage on 2nd impact for WVW ONLY. This would be exactly what this change is going to do anyway in WvW based on what they’ve suggested here.
The entire skill should NOT get adjusted to be “2nd impact damage” in every game mode.

well lets see, if it is ONLY IN WVW im okbut NOT IN TPVP

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@hugo.4705 said:

Items
  • Superior Rune of Antitoxin: Change it so that instead of increasing outgoing condition cleanses by one it instead increases incoming condition cleanses by one, thus only affecting the wielder, but allowing it to scale up with external cleanses.

Engineer
  • Purge Gyro: Reduce the number of cleansing pulses from 5 to 3 in WvW. Pending the superior rune of antitoxin change, this may stay at 5 cleansing pulses.
  • Sneak Gyro: Increase the cooldown of this ability from 45 to
    75
    60 seconds in WvW.
  • Corona Burst: The existing split from PvP of reduced might gain is brought to WvW. Reduced the damage of this ability by 20% in PvP and WvW.
  • Holographic Shockwave: Reduced range from 600 to 300.
  • Impact Savant: See if there is a way to include condition damage on this trait globally. Reduce the vitality loss of this trait from 300 to 180 in WvW and PvP.
  • Chemical Field: This skill is replaced by Detection Pulse (from the old Sneak Gyro elite toolbelt) as the toolbelt skill for Purge Gyro.

Purge Gyro: I really think cleaning pulses should stay at 5 considering antitoxin rework.Sneak Gyro: As said previously, I think 60 cd is okay.Corona Burst: Well too much nerf, it's either reduced might gain or the damage but not both. 20% less damage is already important (-93.8 damage point) considering the wiki. Would say -15% and keep the 2 might.Holographic Shockwave: Again 300 maybe too low, why not 400/450 range? It's still -20%. This skill is important too maintain some foes far from you through interrupt (launch foes).Impact Savant: I think it's a good change, if now damage + condis are converted to barrier, it's a good defensive help. Especially if your holo is burning based.Chemical Field: Good change, that's stealth proof skill is very helpful against those perma stealth thiefs.I really think holo is overnerfed, already previously nerfed with the overheat... It's a class of high damage for high risk not low damage for high risk.

lol

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@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Also Scourge is the main reason for pirate ship. Hammer Rev only does well because of Scourge. It’s not nearly as strong in “Push” metas.

Scourge is the reason for pirate shipping? The reason for pirate shipping is not having a strong enough melee group.Also Hammer Rev does well not only thanks to scourges, but also to spellbreakers: without boon strip right now, no group is able to have good damage against a structured/competent enough opponent.As long as you don't fix the boon generation issue, you solve nothing at all.

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@Irenio CalmonHuang.2048

Coalescence of Ruin: This skill would no longer deals increased damage with successive impacts; instead it deals damage equal to what was previously the middle impact damage. Damage remains split between game modes. A red warning rectangle visible to enemies has been added to this skill.

I don't really think that Coalescence of Ruin needs both area red warning and damage reduction. It should be just one, and I choose red warning.

Hammer on Rev is a very telegraphed weapon, so giving its skills warning should be enough.I think Hammer is a weapon that should hit really hard and be really visible. Coalescence of Ruin is one of the best weapon skills and feels really impactful.

Please consider keeping the damage increase while you add the red warning.

Oh my god. That is literally so cool that you are posting it.

Please, I'm begging you continue to do so.Please please please.

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@Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:Greetings again all,

  • Superior Rune of Antitoxin: Change it so that instead of increasing outgoing condition cleanses by one it instead increases incoming condition cleanses by one, thus only affecting the wielder, but allowing it to scale up with external cleanses.

Engineer

  • Purge Gyro: Reduce the number of cleansing pulses from 5 to 3 in WvW. Pending the superior rune of antitoxin change, this may stay at 5 cleansing pulses. The combination of antitoxin and this MIGHT make condi comps viable.......maybe. Which may irk many but a little variety in group set up from fight to fight would be nice to liven things up a little instead of everyone running the same thing.

Necromancer

  • Oppressive Collapse: This skill will require line of sight on the activation. I take it this is to reduce wall pressure? if so sure why not it doesn't do a whole hell of a lot anyway.
  • Sand Cascade: Reduce the base barrier granted by this skill by 33% in WvW & PvP, increase the healing power contribution by 20%, as the healing coefficient is already pretty strong.
  • Sand Flare: Reduce the base barrier granted by this skill by 25% in WvW, increase the healing power contribution by 33%.
  • Desert Shroud: Increase the base barrier granted by this skill by 10%, increase the healing power contribution by 15% and reduce the damage inflicted by this ability by 20% in WvW.
  • Sand Savant: We've wanted to address the target cap issue with this trait in WvW for a while, however it is an incredibly gnarly problem because this is a large functional change that would need to be preserved between game modes. This was why the cooldown split was made on this trait originally. We hear you that the trait is an issue and we're working on it. This is a tough case to crack in a manner that does not leave one mode suffering due to the changes made for another.Maybe change up the other GMs to make them more enticing? Boost the base size of shroud to big shroud? Just without the +targets. Maybe swap harbinger and Feed from corruption(does anyone use this thing?its never felt very grandmastery)and reduce or remove the delay on harbinger? Just tossing ideas to the wind maybe something will stick or inspire.
  • Feast of Corruption: Reduce damage by 20% in PvP & WvW. The existing split from PvP of corrupting 2 boons is brought to WvW. This ability continues to corrupt 3 boons in PvE.
  • Devouring Darkness: Reduce damage by 20% in PvP & WvW. The existing split from PvP of corrupting 2 boons is brought to WvW. This ability continues to corrupt 3 boons in PvE.The damage reductions and barrier amounts may make people rethink stat choices. More cele/marshal/ whatever instead of mara and zerk. That said I remember the barrier blobs from the start of POF have you checked the numbers on this?

Ranger

  • Long Range Shot: Reduce the damage range of this skill from 0.7-0.9 to 0.6-0.8 in WvW only.I still don't believe this is the correct approach to this. This issue is soulbeast and the damage mods/ and merg bonus. Though the range going well beyond the cap doesn't make things better.

Warrior

  • Charge: This skill would only removes movement impairing conditions and then increases the damage of affected allies' next 2 attacks by 25% in PvE and PvP and 10% in WvW in addition to its previous effects. Increase swiftness duration from 10 seconds to 15 seconds. This skill becomes a blast finisher. Better than version one. 25 was to high for wvw. Give it a shot see what happens.

Side note Irenio....warclaw sniff....This thing pretty much destroyed the element of surprise from implementation. Getting rid of it would be nice not gonna lie.

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

And I guess stealth bombing is something you've never tried @.@

I get that you don't want sand savant nerfed, but that's because you don't know how to use the class to its full potential. No worries, I got you <3

So much assumption and I'm sure you know how that saying goes. I'll just quote my self from the first version of this thread and be done with you

If you want to reduce its pressure in wvw reduce its targets on shades.<

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@DonArkanio.6419 said:@Irenio CalmonHuang.2048

Coalescence of Ruin: This skill would no longer deals increased damage with successive impacts; instead it deals damage equal to what was previously the middle impact damage. Damage remains split between game modes. A red warning rectangle visible to enemies has been added to this skill.

I don't really think that Coalescence of Ruin needs both area red warning and damage reduction. It should be just one, and I choose red warning.

Hammer on Rev is a very telegraphed weapon, so giving its skills warning should be enough.I think Hammer is a weapon that should hit really hard and be really visible. Coalescence of Ruin is one of the best weapon skills and feels really impactful.

Please consider keeping the damage increase while you add the red warning.

As a salty ele main, If lava font got nerfed by 30% then Rev hammer can get nerfed too

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@hugo.4705 said:Holographic Shockwave: Again 300 maybe too low, why not 400/450 range? It's still -20%. This skill is important too maintain some foes far from you through interrupt (launch foes).Too low for what? Not being able to knockdown people in SM from spawn?

The holo shockwave range has always been insane. The AoE is as large as a treb cow shot and if we take edges into account (AoE always hit outside marked areas due to fat player hitboxes) we are talking roughly a ranger longbow shot edge to edge. Theres no player AoE in the game I'm aware that is so large.

Hell, even 300 is still fairly large AoE.

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Rev Staff 4 needs to cleanse more than 2 condis if you're determined to bring back condi spam

Revert all Chrono changes so we can return a class to the meta instead of just tinkering around with the current ones.

Nerf Longbow Wall Ranger camping so you force people to actually come down and engage in the game.

Remove siege disablers and double the damage of offensive siege so maps stay active instead of locking down a few T3 and then taking the week off.

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