Duo Queue - Keep Or Remove? - Social Insights — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Duo Queue - Keep Or Remove? - Social Insights

Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

So a guy brought up a great question in a different thread that made me start thinking. Rather than post a response buried under other responses that wouldn't be seen by many, I decided to make it an OP statement. I really wanted this one to be seen because I feel it may shed a bit of needed light on this debacle of "Should We Remove Duo, Making Ranked Solo Only?"

He asked this question:

@xp eke xp.6724 said:
why are there still so many players that never duo-q?

That simple question inevitably will result in a deep & complex look at the sociology of our community, for those who take the time to really think about it. It isn't as simple as saying: "The duo queues have advantage!" or "I prefer to play alone.." I would question those responses with: "Well why aren't YOU choosing to take advantage of duo queue?" and "What is it exactly that makes you prefer to play alone?" These are important questions that I have yet to see brought up in this forum. I feel this is an enormously large missing chunk of information that needs to be looked at.

It is first important to understand that this debate occurred when a portion of the community began to feel that duo queues had advantages. Then they came into the forums and began to advocate different variations of anti duo queue suggestions. The second important thing to understand that, the players who are upset about due queue, are all players who rarely duo queue if ever at all. The ones who duo queue often are all having fun while doing it, regardless of what other duos they may be against. The third important thing that needs to be pointed out to everyone, is that maybe this debacle is a lot less about how solo or duo effects match making, and a lot more about why a player is choosing not to duo queue, or why they are unable to find a duo queue partner, or maybe why they feel they shouldn't have to. <- Which truth be told, the very large majority of this demographic are the ones who are advocating anti duo queue suggestions.

Within our glicko based game mode, players are rated on team wins & losses, not individual performance. So who you are paired with, greatly effects your rating outcome. Because glicko is ALL about who you play with, it forces players during a ranked season to be very cautious, too cautious for the health of a team based game mode. Which leads to all of this anti cohesion within the community, where players isolate their play amongst a friend or two, or sometimes isolate their play to only with their self. The players who are struggling the worst while dealing with that anti cohesion, are the players who are solo queue much more often than they are duo queue, and they are the large majority who voice anti duo queue suggestions. But why?

Well my first string of thought towards answering @xp eke xp.6724 's question was this:

  1. Many solo queues would love to have a good duo queue with them, but they can never find one because most solo queues believe they are a great deal better than they actually are. This makes the player create unreasonable expectations for who he thinks is good enough to queue with him. The people who he would want to queue with him are able to see that he is not up to par to queue with them at their level, usually always resulting in that desired partner telling him "no" or pretending to sign offline, because the desired partner does not want to lose personal rating because personal rating is the entire point of playing ranked. All of which results in a player who is more often than not solo que, who is upset when he loses to duo ques who seem to have advantage.
  2. So even when a person asks that player to queue, who actually is of his relative skill level, who would make a good partner, he'll say no. This is because he is an average player who overestimates himself as a strong player, who believes that other average players aren't as good as he is. This is still resulting in a player who is solo que more often than not, and who is upset when he goes against duo ques.
  3. Then there are times when two players who are considered sort of B List, meet within the community. However, neither of them will queue with the other because they both view the other as B list, but view themselves as A list material. When the truth is that if they could get over the self importance & overly judgmental criticism of others, they could duo up and probably be playing in the top 50. But due to self importance, they would rather solo queue and struggle to stay in the bottom 100. Even though they're both good players, they're still both solo que, and both of them become upset when they are against duo ques, even B List duo ques.
  4. Sometimes a player knows exactly where he stands and should be able to find an adequate duo partner, where they both are able to identify that they are generally equal in skill, but the player is such a social monster, that he can't keep friends. He gets enraged and blames his partner, complains about too much in general, or god knows what else the guy does that rubs everyone the wrong way. Maybe there is so much social stigma and history behind that player, that other players don't want to be seen with him. In the end, people avoid the guy, and he can't ever find a solid duo or at least not many. This results in a player who is pissed off that he can't find a good duo partner because no one wants to play with him. So he'd rather see that right removed from others.
  5. Other times, players just don't give a $%^& to even try to take advantage of the tools provided to them in the game mode. In this situation we are talking about applying effort to reach out and find a partner. They'd rather see the right removed from other players to be able to play with friends, than step up and apply effort towards making friends, and finding partners. Even though they sit around waiting for an invite and would gladly play with someone, for whatever reason it is, they're too shy or lack the initiative to approach others.
  6. But the final and most interesting reason for why a player might choose to never duo que, are the ones that say: "I shouldn't have to." <- Now therein, is the only real potential strong argument concerning this debate over anti duo que suggestions.

Let's get real honest with ourselves. For those who are advocates of anti duo queue suggestions, reread the points of 1 through 6. You're probably sitting in a room alone or at least no one is paying attention to you as you read your phone or PC, so no one will know your answer. Be honest & non biased, and pick which numbered point of 1 through 6 that you identify with the most.

If you had selected a number between 1 through 5, morally speaking, you have no right or reason to request the removal of Duo Queue and other's ability to play with friends. This is because your suggestions are coming only from a place of social ineptitudes, and a response to act like a crab in a barrel, hoping to pull others down with you, instead of learning how to climb up yourself. If you are a 1 through 5, you are only upset with duo queue because you aren't duo queueing.

On the other hand, if you had honestly identified the most with, and had selected 6, you may have a real argument and I would like to hear it, out of the sheer curiosity of trying to understand why other players are getting so aggressive with anti Duo Queue suggestions.

~ My question to those 6s out there is this: Why do you feel that you shouldn't have to duo queue?

~ Be careful how you answer that, least you be exposed before all of us including yourself, that you were a 1 through 5 all along.

Comments

  • xp eke xp.6724xp eke xp.6724 Member ✭✭
    edited September 8, 2019

    wow im impressed, gj :+1:

    at end i think it helps a lot to understand the wishes of others, how they want to play the game. And thats what it is about: can we play together even if we have different points that are important to us at the same gamemode?
    But also how can we help us to understand what we wish? :)

  • Alatar.7364Alatar.7364 Member ✭✭✭✭

    That's, I only suppose, well said/asked.

    ~ I Aear cân ven na mar

  • Like some ppl think that I’m like a solo qer but I do duo q but usually only with older players. I just hate seeing players that pay for duo q spots and toxic “teams” who decide who is allowed to get top spots even though they are mechanically some of the worst players I’ve ever seen. So I like solo q sometime and have done it perfectly fine to around top ten in solo q seasons so I’d be perfectly fine with solo q.

  • seems to me judging on how people play in games that they just don't really care.

    Te lazla otstra.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Hey this might be a little bit off-topic but it's still relevant to duo que I guess...

    This ranked season is SUPER dead right now. School has started, WoW classic is out, Archeage Unchained is coming out in a month... all of that combined with the disappointing announcement means that there are very, very few higher tier players even quing. I think Helio is busy so he can't put 4 alts on the leaderboards, I'm not playing because I'm too busy, etc. etc.

    No one is trying this season at all and while people aren't memeing yet, the whole season kinda feels dead from what I've seen and heard.

    So, high tier duo ques will be even more uncommon.

  • 6 definitely resonates with me, though I lack the self-assessment skills necessary to know if my problem is moreso 1-5, but I find myself asking why a lot.

    I like SoloQ. I think it's more challenging. I think Ranked in any game should be about the challenge, and the competition. I think SoloQ has and always will have closer matchmaking that more accurately represents all 10 players, thus making the game more challenging; whereas a DuoQ, even one with pure intentions not exploiting it to snipe lower-rated players, will almost always result in lower-rated players being placed on both teams. There just isn't enough people DuoQing, especially at the very highest level of play; where DuoQ is most relevant, to consistently provide a coordinated challenge that justifies the advantage DuoQ gives.

    I'll say again that I believe the fun from Ranked comes from skill-based matchamaking, the struggle, the climb, the challenge. DuoQ ruins that fun for me, because if I have to DuoQ; then i'm pretty much forced to interact with those lower rated players. Either me and my Duo partner have to carry them, or we get lucky and we get to farm them. I'm more than willing to DuoQ if i'm more likely to have those same benefits I get from SoloQing in DuoQ, but it's just not there right now. That might blow some people's minds, but I think the only way to truly get better at sPvP or any game really, is to be matched with and against people of a similar rating/skill level. You don't improve by being matched against people way above or way below your skill level, and being put in those positions is often a serious blow to my motivation to keep playing.

    When it comes to the social aspect, I just have nobody left that wants to suffer through PvP. I don't ask out of respect to my friends that play PvE, Wvw, or other games entirely, since those are totally different ballgames, and they probably want to jump into a plat sPvP match as much as the other 3 teammates would want them there. Not being able to play with friends makes the process of seeking out a Duo partner seem like nothing but wanting some metagaming advantage, and I don't want to do that unless everyone else has the same advantage and similar rating.

    Why should I have to DuoQ for an advantage? Why can't teams be a separate option to Solos? Why does the matchmaker have to value quantity over quality?

    Remove Ranked DuoQ pls&ty

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Multicolorhipster.9751

    I used to say this a while back when team que first got removed.

    I actually enjoyed solo quing against 5 man teams because the matches were a lot harder. It forced me to get better and regardless of whether or not they were in comms, it all comes down to mechanics at the end of the day. So, that ended up helping me improve in the long run.

    However, that can be applied to the current system as well. If you like solo que because it's more challenging, wouldn't you also enjoy fighting against duos?

    Idk I guess it doesn't matter too much I'm not even playing this season really. And unless Anet delivers on Swiss and all that I probably won't continue to play much in the future.

  • Multicolorhipster.9751Multicolorhipster.9751 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 9, 2019

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    I used to say this a while back when team que first got removed.

    I actually enjoyed solo quing against 5 man teams because the matches were a lot harder. It forced me to get better and regardless of whether or not they were in comms, it all comes down to mechanics at the end of the day. So, that ended up helping me improve in the long run.

    However, that can be applied to the current system as well. If you like solo que because it's more challenging, wouldn't you also enjoy fighting against duos?

    Idk I guess it doesn't matter too much I'm not even playing this season really. And unless Anet delivers on Swiss and all that I probably won't continue to play much in the future.

    Like I say, going with or against DuoQ isn't very fun as a SoloQ because the 3 people on the side of the DuoQ are almost always carried at a much lower rating. The blowout losses/wins just aren't fun to play into. What I think, was SoloQ-only felt the most fair and representative of one's own skill level, though; the population has dropped since, and I can easily understand why people wouldn't want that to be the only option, but it should definitely be an option. Feel me?

    And the effect it had on my rating has been terrible. I was actually in the top 10 earlier this season because of this. I definitely did not deserve to be there. I want my rating to be accurate to the skill and effort I put in. I don't want it to be inflated and meaningless because RNG was lucky enough to have multiple DuoQ's carry me there. To me, rating is more intrapersonal rather than interpersonal.

    Remove Ranked DuoQ pls&ty

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    I used to say this a while back when team que first got removed.

    I actually enjoyed solo quing against 5 man teams because the matches were a lot harder. It forced me to get better and regardless of whether or not they were in comms, it all comes down to mechanics at the end of the day. So, that ended up helping me improve in the long run.

    However, that can be applied to the current system as well. If you like solo que because it's more challenging, wouldn't you also enjoy fighting against duos?

    Idk I guess it doesn't matter too much I'm not even playing this season really. And unless Anet delivers on Swiss and all that I probably won't continue to play much in the future.

    Like I say, going with or against DuoQ isn't very fun as a SoloQ because the 3 people on the side of the DuoQ are almost always carried at a much lower rating. The blowout losses/wins just aren't fun to play into. What I think, was SoloQ-only felt the most fair and representative of one's own skill level, though; the population has dropped since, and I can easily understand why people wouldn't want that to be the only option, but it should definitely be an option. Feel me?

    And the effect it had on my rating has been terrible. I was actually in the top 10 earlier this season because of this. I definitely did not deserve to be there. I want my rating to be accurate to the skill and effort I put in. I don't want it to be inflated and meaningless because RNG was lucky enough to have multiple DuoQ's carry me there. To me, rating is more intrapersonal rather than interpersonal.

    Whether or not it's fun is subjective. I have fun quing against premades because I like the competition.

    The same people are always at the top regardless of whether or not duo que exists. The only thing removing duo changes is annoying the people at the top. That's it. There aren't gold players or low plat players getting carried to the top ranks by duos. Nor are they getting thrown into silver due to unwinnable matches.

    If such a small percentage of the population duo ques anyways, it's really not as big of an issue as some people like to make it seem.

    The season just started, volatility is very high and not everyone ques at the start. Because of this, you can have a gold player (literally placed in gold division) get top 10 in the first few days. It's a common occurrence, not an argument against duo que lol

    As you said, you were in the top 10 at the start of the season. Matchmaker will bring you back down if you don't deserve to be there.

  • Multicolorhipster.9751Multicolorhipster.9751 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 9, 2019

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    Whether or not it's fun is subjective. I have fun quing against premades because I like the competition.

    The same people are always at the top regardless of whether or not duo que exists. The only thing removing duo changes is annoying the people at the top. That's it. There aren't gold players or low plat players getting carried to the top ranks by duos. Nor are they getting thrown into silver due to unwinnable matches.
    If such a small percentage of the population duo ques anyways, it's really not as big of an issue as some people like to make it seem.

    Of course it's subjective. What I find fun and what you find might highly differ. The easy solution there is just not to remove it. Just give people the option to queue Solo-only if they want to. Don't know how many times we've talked about this.

    The season just started, volatility is very high and not everyone ques at the start. Because of this, you can have a gold player (literally placed in gold division) get top 10 in the first few days. It's a common occurrence, not an argument against duo que lol
    As you said, you were in the top 10 at the start of the season. Matchmaker will bring you back down if you don't deserve to be there.

    End of week 2, I was on a 19-20 game winstreak. It was pretty ridiculous, and felt very undeserved.

    Even worse is 7 straight losses was enough to lose half the rating obtained from that winstreak; which, that was more recent, and since rating gain/loss is determined solely by the ratings of the other people in your match, that sort of speaks for itself. Any sense of competition has just been drained from this game, or at least it feels that way. You said yourself this season is pretty much dead, and noncompetitive. To say that's solely because it's a busy time and more games are coming out is a bit absurd. It never gets this bad, even in this time of the year. People are starting to get burnt out, I speak from experience. Like @Megametzler.5729 said, DuoQ might not be the main killer there, but it's definitely a contributing factor; at least in my case.

    Remove Ranked DuoQ pls&ty

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Don't forget time constraints. Those of us with jobs may not be able to play at the same times as those whom we want to play with. Some people, like myself, don't like being tied to a set schedule either.

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • Ralkuth.1456Ralkuth.1456 Member ✭✭✭

    I don’t Duo because my game time is SEA late at night and unpredictable, I queue only on a whim and usually below the 120 games required.

    That said I’m actually more than happy to queue with guildmates or a small circle of friends I knew from my more active days, though they’re either all gone, don’t log in late at night, or prefer to play solo themselves.

    I do know though, that when I click on the queue button, I have automatically acknowledged the fact that I might be queued with Duos, and it is a risk I have to take when queuing. It is a right, an advantageous option I have forgone for personal reasons, and it is a reality I have to accept.

    Strictly from the perspective of someone who queues Ranked solo and tryhard to win, of course Duo is a pretty nasty obstacle to surmount; my position as a player who solo queues would benefit from the suggestions put forth by such a viewpoint.

    I’m not too concerned with that but I can understand what’s going on.

    (Warning: resentment incoming)

    I love winning; who doesn’t? I love fighting fun matches with back-and-forth score gains; who doesn’t?
    In a broader context the real question is what ANet could do to make PvP more fun instead of justifying past decisions on Solo/Duo issues like it’s a lot of effort to do nothing at all, and promising while not delivering on 2v2 or Swiss.

    Oh nice PvP armour sets, remember everyone: each moment in-game is a blessing and a gift, those sets are going to keep me happy for a year :)
    :)
    :)
    :)
    PepoKms

    Player of distinguishing mediocrity, carrying enemy team since 2012
    Seasons at Plat 1: 7, 17, 18
    Seasons hardstuck in Gold: 5
    "Multiclass implies you can actually play the class" - A Certain Twitch Royalty, addressing a stream title

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I honestly don't really care either way at this point.

    But I'm not gonna lie, I'd miss the ability to que with a partner.

  • I think a lot of the times people are, as you said, either too lazy, or too cocky, or not confident enough to ask others. Others might think it puts them at a disadvantage if there's already a bunch of good players soloQeuing, but you're duoQ = higher chances that the enemy team will be stacked?
    I used to soloQ all the time but lately if I see a decent player who is solo queing, and I'm solo queing, I just ask them if they wanna duoQ. Why not? Better to be with them than against them. So far it always worked out well and everyone seems up for it, and we end up winning more. I think people just think that it won't work out... but in reality, I think most people would be up for it.

    Or maybe we're all anti-social in a social game ;) huehue

  • The only reason that matters at this point is playing with other people by choice is fun. Nothing else matters. You aren't required to do it, but removing the option for everyone is worse than any consequence of high end duo qs

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 14, 2019

    Duo queue just doesn't make sense period, you're not the whole team so you still don't really have control over your strategy, but at the same time the matchmaker couldn't give a flying kitten's butt to even match 2 duos together, let alone make sure they're the same skill level. So on the other hand despite falling short of being organized play, they definitely offer an unfair advantage.

    So i think they should delete duo and do what MoBAs do: have. Separate queue for solo ranked and team ranked, team ranked is 5 players. Heck give each their own ladder too, but matching semi organized against unorganized play is just downright ridiculous.

    They should also make add another type of season for ranked that lasts longer (like spans multiple seasons but doesn't replace the current ones) and has cosmetic rewards and adds extra mechanics to maps to entice more participation. They should actually do this for every piece of content that's going stale (raids, fractals, wvw and pvp). To help anet get something out of it, there should be items in the gem store that compliment the cosmetic seasonal rewards so they can feed their business model while also keeping the game fresh and interesting for players.

  • @ButterPeanut.9746 said:
    The only reason that matters at this point is playing with other people by choice is fun. Nothing else matters. You aren't required to do it, but removing the option for everyone is worse than any consequence of high end duo qs

    See my post. I don't entirely disagree with you, but the players in duo should not be playing with players in solo.

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