Daishi.6027 Posted September 7, 2019 Share Posted September 7, 2019 One shots (even from stealth) are fine. What isn’t fine is the lack of punishability after a whiff. Particularly for thief, power shatter and it’s more limited resources and tools to sustain (compared to the frequency of mobility tools, evades, or perma stealth) is a good sweet spot of punishability that burst builds should abide by.If you successfully evade a one shot attempt, your opponent shouldn’t get away for free. They either need The threat of death, or run out of resources escaping. (Not return in 15-30 seconds and try again; only to escape again in a whiff) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted September 7, 2019 Share Posted September 7, 2019 @Daishi.6027 said:One shots (even from stealth) are fine. What isn’t fine is the lack of punishability after a whiff. Particularly for thief, power shatter and it’s more limited resources and tools to sustain (compared to the frequency of mobility tools, evades, or perma stealth) is a good sweet spot of punishability that burst builds should abide by.If you successfully evade a one shot attempt, your opponent shouldn’t get away for free. They either need The threat of death, or run out of resources escaping. (Not return in 15-30 seconds and try again; only to escape again in a whiff)I donno I've seen a lot of burst done by all of mesmers specs that may as well be one shots considering ur downed in less than a sec and unable to move and if u pressure them poof their gone or there's 4 or 5 clones around u etc. I wouldn't say thief has any advantage over a well played mesmer or any of its specs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArcanistSeven.8720 Posted September 8, 2019 Share Posted September 8, 2019 i would just quit pvp and im not saying that to be mean the balance has been shit since pof came out its honestly not worth the hassle anymore. anet has made specs that perform too well on the conquest game mode and no amount of nerfing will fix these design flaws. me personally ill comeback when a new game mode is added but with anets focus on living world i dont think ill be pvping again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daishi.6027 Posted September 8, 2019 Share Posted September 8, 2019 @Psycoprophet.8107 said:@Daishi.6027 said:One shots (even from stealth) are fine. What isn’t fine is the lack of punishability after a whiff. Particularly for thief, power shatter and it’s more limited resources and tools to sustain (compared to the frequency of mobility tools, evades, or perma stealth) is a good sweet spot of punishability that burst builds should abide by.If you successfully evade a one shot attempt, your opponent shouldn’t get away for free. They either need The threat of death, or run out of resources escaping. (Not return in 15-30 seconds and try again; only to escape again in a whiff)I donno I've seen a lot of burst done by all of mesmers specs that may as well be one shots considering ur downed in less than a sec and unable to move and if u pressure them poof their gone or there's 4 or 5 clones around u etc. I wouldn't say thief has any advantage over a well played mesmer or any of its specs. If blink is used to engage (and often is) then the only true escape is portal a 72 sec cooldown that is almost wasted when used selfishly, and is kinda out of meta except for specific strats now.Jaunts and mirage thrust can be used, but then that at least falls under the criteria of:@Daishi.6027 said:run out of resources escaping.And 4 or 5 clones (implying some mid shatter or just converting from phants) is still inferior to flat out unable to be targeted or zoned compared to stealth while almost equally as squishy. Both a power mes and a thief don't like cleave. But when one is "you can't see me have fun guessing where I'm going" and the other is a bunch of things that die in cleave, is the main resource so cleaving it is beneficial, AND while cleaving your general area; there is no comparison. Even less so for other specs and the number of evades on demand to avoid any other incoming cooldowns. Turns out not getting hit is the best option, and both stop you from getting hit much better than "clones"This all while compared to thief which can try again, with almost equal parts safety as the first attempt. While mesmer by comparison can go back through the portal for a second try, but once that whiffs there is no escape option. Or if chased by anything with mobility skills and you are blowing jaunts and mirage thrusts that is both your repositon tool/mini gap close/clense gone, along with your evades... But with this option you can't simply return and try again since you used all your resources. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted September 8, 2019 Share Posted September 8, 2019 I donno I find thief way easier to deal with. Just my experience,others may be different. I'm a garbage thief player compared to most but I find fighting other thieves way easier than any mesmer spec. Always have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bast.7253 Posted September 8, 2019 Share Posted September 8, 2019 @Lilyanna.9361 said:@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:@Lilyanna.9361 said:Wait so you are mad at warrior for having basic boi combos that don't even pump out perma quickness. And your double mad because you don't time your stunbreaks when the warrior is trying to all in you so you are saying quickness spam and cc spam????? You do know warrior is a BRUISER class to LOCK a SINGULAR person down correct? Yea, this is definitely a whine thread.No i said quickness burst is BS because quickness in general is BS. And being able to throw 3-4 cc's one after the other with dagger, shield, tether, bulls rush, rampage is excessive.No, that's called skill be able to link skills (aka warrior's case CC) together. Combos. And most good, dps warriors play with axe nowadays because nerfed warrior dagger is awful.Again, warrior is literally the most predictable of all of these classes and has to be the most predictable with their cc chains because they are relatively easy to pick up. Again, even with one stun break someone could basically ignore the full chain. Hell, even popping stability will ignore ALL of the chain. Like, what do you want this class to do? Just look at you while you kite them?They need something to make their hits stick since their attacks are large and telegraphed.I mean, pretty much everything they do cleaves for insane damage. So even if the direct hit didn't make it, they've still got loads of other abilities while taking minimal damage and regenning. I'd say core is a bit stronger at the moment, and berserker just does crazy damage in general, but it's not like they're hitting for miniscule damage. And with the sustain they have between full counter, evades, greatsword 3, blocks, regen, and the frequent cc no matter how telegraphed, it's great they don't have anymore damage than they do. Plus, if you're fighting on a cap, they have an advantage. Kiting doesn't really work when you actually need the point, and frankly, unless you're constantly pulsing out immob or cripple, kiting isn't even really an issue if they're in greatsword. Dagger/Shield maybe, because they have no ranged attacks or gap closers outside of bull's charge, stomp, rampage, or other utilities.It is pretty amusing though that most of the time I'll think I'm winning and then all of a sudden they pop rampage and I go 100-0. If anything needs to be touched with Warrior it's rampage, whether it be lowering its damage or increasing its cooldown.BUT, it has the same advantage as Holosmith in that it can run tank/toughness amulets like Demolisher's and take virtually no damage output loss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreams.3128 Posted September 8, 2019 Share Posted September 8, 2019 @"cptaylor.2670" said:@Lilyanna.9361 said:@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:@Lilyanna.9361 said:Wait so you are mad at warrior for having basic boi combos that don't even pump out perma quickness. And your double mad because you don't time your stunbreaks when the warrior is trying to all in you so you are saying quickness spam and cc spam????? You do know warrior is a BRUISER class to LOCK a SINGULAR person down correct? Yea, this is definitely a whine thread.No i said quickness burst is BS because quickness in general is BS. And being able to throw 3-4 cc's one after the other with dagger, shield, tether, bulls rush, rampage is excessive.No, that's called skill be able to link skills (aka warrior's case CC) together. Combos. And most good, dps warriors play with axe nowadays because nerfed warrior dagger is awful.Again, warrior is literally the most predictable of all of these classes and has to be the most predictable with their cc chains because they are relatively easy to pick up. Again, even with one stun break someone could basically ignore the full chain. Hell, even popping stability will ignore ALL of the chain. Like, what do you want this class to do? Just look at you while you kite them?They need something to make their hits stick since their attacks are large and telegraphed.I mean, pretty much everything they do cleaves for insane damage. So even if the direct hit didn't make it, they've still got loads of other abilities while taking minimal damage and regenning. I'd say core is a bit stronger at the moment, and berserker just does crazy damage in general, but it's not like they're hitting for miniscule damage. And with the sustain they have between full counter, evades, greatsword 3, blocks, regen, and the frequent cc no matter how telegraphed, it's great they don't have anymore damage than they do. Plus, if you're fighting on a cap, they have an advantage. Kiting doesn't really work when you actually need the point, and frankly, unless you're constantly pulsing out immob or cripple, kiting isn't even really an issue if they're in greatsword. Dagger/Shield maybe, because they have no ranged attacks or gap closers outside of bull's charge, stomp, rampage, or other utilities.It is pretty amusing though that most of the time I'll think I'm winning and then all of a sudden they pop rampage and I go 100-0. If anything needs to be touched with Warrior it's rampage, whether it be lowering its damage or increasing its cooldown.BUT, it has the same advantage as Holosmith in that it can run tank/toughness amulets like Demolisher's and take virtually no damage output loss. Rampage did get nerfed tho. It's cooldown got upped. What, you want it to be at 180 again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
voltaicbore.8012 Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 @"cptaylor.2670" said:Plus, if you're fighting on a cap, they have an advantage. Kiting doesn't really work when you actually need the point, and frankly, unless you're constantly pulsing out immob or cripple, kiting isn't even really an issue if they're in greatsword. Dagger/Shield maybe, because they have no ranged attacks or gap closers outside of bull's charge, stomp, rampage, or other utilities.You mentioned a few other noteworthy things (mostly about good warrior cleaves), but I feel like this point deserves extra attention. So many times the response in the forum is "lulz just kite." While yes, kiting a kite-able enemy will help you not die (and if things go right, severely whittle down the enemy), you're still giving up cap. Chances are that if you're the kind of player who feels the need to challenge a warrior for a point, you might be one of the few people on your team responsible for properly contesting a side node, and for a sidenoder straight giving up a node while attempting a kite is just letting your team down.It is pretty amusing though that most of the time I'll think I'm winning and then all of a sudden they pop rampage and I go 100-0. If anything needs to be touched with Warrior it's rampage, whether it be lowering its damage or increasing its cooldown.I felt this way until I started running rampage myself (on spellbreaker, and rng with scrapper elite elixir) and found it to be moderately situational. I noticed that I could only turn around a 1v1 with rampage if I was careful about popping it when I was pretty confident my target was out of stability and escapes, and didn't have easy access to several individual blinds or pulsing aoe blind. Since you can't pop resistance mid-rampage from utilities, I find blind to be the most rampage-invalidating counter out there, and have since put it to use surviving rampages. But blinds or not, I always have to either run or play very, very conservatively around a rampaging warrior. Even with blind as an accessible counter for me, I still have to abandon point, and if backup shows up for the rampaging enemy, I usually have to run away entirely.All that said, I feel like warrior is in a good spot right now - killable, but not an easy kill. I feel like a few things in OP's list - notably condi mirage and a well-played boonbeast - are far better examples of builds that are plain annoying to deal with even if you've figured out a spot in the current meta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bast.7253 Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 @Lilyanna.9361 said:@"cptaylor.2670" said:@Lilyanna.9361 said:@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:@Lilyanna.9361 said:Wait so you are mad at warrior for having basic boi combos that don't even pump out perma quickness. And your double mad because you don't time your stunbreaks when the warrior is trying to all in you so you are saying quickness spam and cc spam????? You do know warrior is a BRUISER class to LOCK a SINGULAR person down correct? Yea, this is definitely a whine thread.No i said quickness burst is BS because quickness in general is BS. And being able to throw 3-4 cc's one after the other with dagger, shield, tether, bulls rush, rampage is excessive.No, that's called skill be able to link skills (aka warrior's case CC) together. Combos. And most good, dps warriors play with axe nowadays because nerfed warrior dagger is awful.Again, warrior is literally the most predictable of all of these classes and has to be the most predictable with their cc chains because they are relatively easy to pick up. Again, even with one stun break someone could basically ignore the full chain. Hell, even popping stability will ignore ALL of the chain. Like, what do you want this class to do? Just look at you while you kite them?They need something to make their hits stick since their attacks are large and telegraphed.I mean, pretty much everything they do cleaves for insane damage. So even if the direct hit didn't make it, they've still got loads of other abilities while taking minimal damage and regenning. I'd say core is a bit stronger at the moment, and berserker just does crazy damage in general, but it's not like they're hitting for miniscule damage. And with the sustain they have between full counter, evades, greatsword 3, blocks, regen, and the frequent cc no matter how telegraphed, it's great they don't have anymore damage than they do. Plus, if you're fighting on a cap, they have an advantage. Kiting doesn't really work when you actually need the point, and frankly, unless you're constantly pulsing out immob or cripple, kiting isn't even really an issue if they're in greatsword. Dagger/Shield maybe, because they have no ranged attacks or gap closers outside of bull's charge, stomp, rampage, or other utilities.It is pretty amusing though that most of the time I'll think I'm winning and then all of a sudden they pop rampage and I go 100-0. If anything needs to be touched with Warrior it's rampage, whether it be lowering its damage or increasing its cooldown.BUT, it has the same advantage as Holosmith in that it can run tank/toughness amulets like Demolisher's and take virtually no damage output loss. Rampage did get nerfed tho. It's cooldown got upped. What, you want it to be at 180 again? Did it? Is there a trait that reduces it? Sometimes I feel like they pop it 2 or three times during a fight.Then again, it takes forever to kill them anyway with all of the defensives and regen. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreams.3128 Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 @"cptaylor.2670" said:@Lilyanna.9361 said:@"cptaylor.2670" said:@Lilyanna.9361 said:@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:@Lilyanna.9361 said:Wait so you are mad at warrior for having basic boi combos that don't even pump out perma quickness. And your double mad because you don't time your stunbreaks when the warrior is trying to all in you so you are saying quickness spam and cc spam????? You do know warrior is a BRUISER class to LOCK a SINGULAR person down correct? Yea, this is definitely a whine thread.No i said quickness burst is BS because quickness in general is BS. And being able to throw 3-4 cc's one after the other with dagger, shield, tether, bulls rush, rampage is excessive.No, that's called skill be able to link skills (aka warrior's case CC) together. Combos. And most good, dps warriors play with axe nowadays because nerfed warrior dagger is awful.Again, warrior is literally the most predictable of all of these classes and has to be the most predictable with their cc chains because they are relatively easy to pick up. Again, even with one stun break someone could basically ignore the full chain. Hell, even popping stability will ignore ALL of the chain. Like, what do you want this class to do? Just look at you while you kite them?They need something to make their hits stick since their attacks are large and telegraphed.I mean, pretty much everything they do cleaves for insane damage. So even if the direct hit didn't make it, they've still got loads of other abilities while taking minimal damage and regenning. I'd say core is a bit stronger at the moment, and berserker just does crazy damage in general, but it's not like they're hitting for miniscule damage. And with the sustain they have between full counter, evades, greatsword 3, blocks, regen, and the frequent cc no matter how telegraphed, it's great they don't have anymore damage than they do. Plus, if you're fighting on a cap, they have an advantage. Kiting doesn't really work when you actually need the point, and frankly, unless you're constantly pulsing out immob or cripple, kiting isn't even really an issue if they're in greatsword. Dagger/Shield maybe, because they have no ranged attacks or gap closers outside of bull's charge, stomp, rampage, or other utilities.It is pretty amusing though that most of the time I'll think I'm winning and then all of a sudden they pop rampage and I go 100-0. If anything needs to be touched with Warrior it's rampage, whether it be lowering its damage or increasing its cooldown.BUT, it has the same advantage as Holosmith in that it can run tank/toughness amulets like Demolisher's and take virtually no damage output loss. Rampage did get nerfed tho. It's cooldown got upped. What, you want it to be at 180 again? Did it? Is there a trait that reduces it? Sometimes I feel like they pop it 2 or three times during a fight.Then again, it takes forever to kill them anyway with all of the defensives and regen. lolYea, with everything traited Rampage is at 105 seconds, so it's up once every per teamfight I'd say? I never liked being trapped in the state of not using my utilities, so I like towards the tail end of a 1v1 or in the middle of a teamfight when someone is low and we need major cleave.And the defenses, well. At one point in time Warrior did not have strong traits and their utilities were pretty botched from zerker nerfs. They pretty much disappeared from PvP entirely until Anet had to bring them up to scale for PoF. Only at the tail end when core Warrior became the only playable spec of the class, did Warrior become notable again, so eh.It's a double-edged sword. Warrior is either solid and strong (but not dumb op) or they literally off the face of the planet until they get buffed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bast.7253 Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 @Lilyanna.9361 said:@"cptaylor.2670" said:@Lilyanna.9361 said:@"cptaylor.2670" said:@Lilyanna.9361 said:@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:@Lilyanna.9361 said:Wait so you are mad at warrior for having basic boi combos that don't even pump out perma quickness. And your double mad because you don't time your stunbreaks when the warrior is trying to all in you so you are saying quickness spam and cc spam????? You do know warrior is a BRUISER class to LOCK a SINGULAR person down correct? Yea, this is definitely a whine thread.No i said quickness burst is BS because quickness in general is BS. And being able to throw 3-4 cc's one after the other with dagger, shield, tether, bulls rush, rampage is excessive.No, that's called skill be able to link skills (aka warrior's case CC) together. Combos. And most good, dps warriors play with axe nowadays because nerfed warrior dagger is awful.Again, warrior is literally the most predictable of all of these classes and has to be the most predictable with their cc chains because they are relatively easy to pick up. Again, even with one stun break someone could basically ignore the full chain. Hell, even popping stability will ignore ALL of the chain. Like, what do you want this class to do? Just look at you while you kite them?They need something to make their hits stick since their attacks are large and telegraphed.I mean, pretty much everything they do cleaves for insane damage. So even if the direct hit didn't make it, they've still got loads of other abilities while taking minimal damage and regenning. I'd say core is a bit stronger at the moment, and berserker just does crazy damage in general, but it's not like they're hitting for miniscule damage. And with the sustain they have between full counter, evades, greatsword 3, blocks, regen, and the frequent cc no matter how telegraphed, it's great they don't have anymore damage than they do. Plus, if you're fighting on a cap, they have an advantage. Kiting doesn't really work when you actually need the point, and frankly, unless you're constantly pulsing out immob or cripple, kiting isn't even really an issue if they're in greatsword. Dagger/Shield maybe, because they have no ranged attacks or gap closers outside of bull's charge, stomp, rampage, or other utilities.It is pretty amusing though that most of the time I'll think I'm winning and then all of a sudden they pop rampage and I go 100-0. If anything needs to be touched with Warrior it's rampage, whether it be lowering its damage or increasing its cooldown.BUT, it has the same advantage as Holosmith in that it can run tank/toughness amulets like Demolisher's and take virtually no damage output loss. Rampage did get nerfed tho. It's cooldown got upped. What, you want it to be at 180 again? Did it? Is there a trait that reduces it? Sometimes I feel like they pop it 2 or three times during a fight.Then again, it takes forever to kill them anyway with all of the defensives and regen. lolYea, with everything traited Rampage is at 105 seconds, so it's up once every per teamfight I'd say? I never liked being trapped in the state of not using my utilities, so I like towards the tail end of a 1v1 or in the middle of a teamfight when someone is low and we need major cleave.And the defenses, well. At one point in time Warrior did not have strong traits and their utilities were pretty botched from zerker nerfs. They pretty much disappeared from PvP entirely until Anet had to bring them up to scale for PoF. Only at the tail end when core Warrior became the only playable spec of the class, did Warrior become notable again, so eh.It's a double-edged sword. Warrior is either solid and strong (but not dumb op) or they literally off the face of the planet until they get buffed.That's true. I've found warriors that way in WoW too. I guess because, thematically, as the class is just a non-magic fighter type, it always has all the cc and high damage to compensate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kraai.7265 Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 Power mirage/mes - mirage cloak, unavoidable 1 shots from stealthLMFAO, this entitled rookies really need to stop whinning and l2p, any one knows the best and only counter to power mesmers is to DODGE!That nonsense was enough for me to exit the post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mini Crinny.6190 Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 @kraai.7265 said:Power mirage/mes - mirage cloak, unavoidable 1 shots from stealthLMFAO, this entitled rookies really need to stop whinning and l2p, any one knows the best and only counter to power mesmers is to DODGE!That nonsense was enough for me to exit the post.But you replied to it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagrant.7206 Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 According to the OP, if you have a build, it's BS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mini Crinny.6190 Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 @Vagrant.7206 said:According to the OP, if you have a build, it's BS.nono.. his build is fine don't forget that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradoxoglanis.1904 Posted September 9, 2019 Author Share Posted September 9, 2019 @Mini Crinny.6190 said:@Vagrant.7206 said:According to the OP, if you have a build, it's BS.nono.. his build is fine don't forget thatThe only builds I played are listed in my original post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MethaneGas.8357 Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 Condi scourge as in Blood scourge? Maybe a bit BS and easier to play, but with blood you've got less DPS, a bit less corrupts, less overall condis, and if you want more damage, even less AoE.Or condi scourge as in Curses? Curses can be super strong and annoying to fight but much easier to kill than Blood. Seems like there's overall good trade-offs in the class :pensive: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorstienn.1642 Posted September 10, 2019 Share Posted September 10, 2019 I understand your point OP. And I agree, even if I find some of those builds easy to beat (on certain classes) they're all an annoying fight.You forgot to mention "smokescale" and "gazelle" though! ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yusayu.3629 Posted September 10, 2019 Share Posted September 10, 2019 Yeaaah, PvP might not be for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigpapasmurf.5623 Posted September 11, 2019 Share Posted September 11, 2019 @Psycoprophet.8107 said:I donno I find thief way easier to deal with. Just my experience,others may be different. I'm a garbage thief player compared to most but I find fighting other thieves way easier than any mesmer spec. Always have.I was the other way around. When I mained Daredevil, I found it ezpz to down most mes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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