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The sustain of Holosmith is nuts....it's just broken


Arheundel.6451

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@mortrialus.3062 said:But seriously, I've done the math. Healing Turret is heads and shoulders above almost every healing outside of extremely situational healing skills like Herald's Infuse Light and Warrior's Defensive Stance even before they start comboing into the field with other skills.

Heads and shoulders above almost other healing skills without outside finishers? Virtually every class has a heal that can come close or exceed that 6k plus regen every 20s. You need to combo 2x from outside sources to be ahead of the rest. Obviously when you do that, and hit allies, it becomes an S-tier heal but know the difference.

I debunked you before when you were claiming Heal Turret was the best sustain outside situational ones. Just gonna re-hash that:

My scrapper right now in PvP can get a 24k heal/barrier with the menders & sanctuary setup and combos with Medic Gyro every 20s. Medic Gyro is 1.5 times the Healing Turret healing/barrier in this setup.

Medic Gyro, Mantra Heal, To the Limit, Natural Healing, Well of Blood, possibly a few more I'm forgetting, these can all very easily dwarf Healing Turret sustain in HPS even if you combo the Turret field 3x. Obviously Herald's infuse light can produce situational 20k+ heals.

So obviously Healing Turret is great but perhaps you could do so much as to listen to the Engineers always posting that reducing Heat Therapy would be much more intelligent

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@"praqtos.9035"

Hyperbole, AWAYYYYY.

Seriously though, every time the subject of holo comes up, you chime in. Then I chime in. Then we circle around the same tired old arguments. You claim that holo hasn't seen any major nerfs. I point out several substantial nerfs to damage and sustain. You claim healing turret is the best heal in the game. I point out that Heat Therapy is the problem. You claim that "There's too much stability" and almost everyone points out that you can just avoid corona burst to prevent the majority of stability holo has access to (don't even need to dodge, just range or kite).

Can we just stop circling around the same tired arguments?

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@Arheundel.6451 said:It's not the damage that I care, it's pointless to nerfing their dmg......their sustain is just bonker and for no healing power investment, that's what I consider absolutely unreal...how can a dev let a class heal so much while investing not even a single point in healing power? How can a holosmtih with a demolisher amulet heals for far more than a mender tempest ?

One spec supposed to be a bruiser...the other a support spec...why this design decisions? just why?

I agree up the damage so they can used in PVE/Raiding and nerf the sustain

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:How can a holosmtih with a
demolisher amulet
heals for far more than a
mender tempest
?

They don't.

Interrupt their heal. Interrupt their combo finishers in their water field if you miss the intterrupt on their heal.

Easier said than done considering you can expect a holosmith to both be covered by Stability a majority of the time and/or do it while quickness boosted, or while dropping a quickness boosted Toss Elixir S,
then
doing it.

But seriously, I've done the math. Healing Turret is heads and shoulders above almost every healing outside of extremely situational healing skills like Herald's Infuse Light and Warrior's Defensive Stance even before they start comboing into the field with other skills.

They get stab when they land holo 3 and when casting elixer u. Two sources, one of which you can prevent entirely by not getting hit by that particular skill.

You sound the same as every person endlessly complaining about spellbreaker, mirage, holo, condi thief, etc, etc, etc. Here are the reasons pretty much everyone in here can't beat a holo.

1) Your build is bad.Solution: find the best player for your class and use their build.2) You don't understand how holo really works.Solution: play holo for a few weeks and learn the class.3) The holo player is better than you mechanically.Solution: put forth serious effort to improve your basic mechanics.

If your build is good, if you know how the other class works, and if you are better than the other player you will beat them.

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@Vagrant.7206 said:

@"praqtos.9035"

Hyperbole, AWAYYYYY.

Seriously though, every time the subject of holo comes up, you chime in. Then I chime in. Then we circle around the same tired old arguments. You claim that holo hasn't seen any major nerfs. I point out several substantial nerfs to damage and sustain. You claim healing turret is the best heal in the game. I point out that Heat Therapy is the problem. You claim that "There's too much stability" and almost everyone points out that you can just avoid corona burst to prevent the majority of stability holo has access to (don't even need to dodge, just range or kite).

Can we just stop circling around the same tired arguments?You only pretend*.Its kinda ridiculous "we shouldnt nerf holo because year ago it had some nerfs", I had a good laugh.HT isnt the main issue, its part of it. HT alone wont stop them from spamming forge with low cds carelessly, the amount of passives to help them as well.I get that you want such nerf that wont affect real issues so it be OP still, pretty obvious, talking with such people is pointless, so I wont.

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@"praqtos.9035" said:I wonder if any amount of "nerf braindead holo" threads will have any effect.

No. That only works for mesmer.

In all seriousness either sustain + stability needs to go to make it more punishable, or Damage needs to be significantly reduced, or focused into one or two powerful hits that are avoidable with one evade.

One or the other, not both.

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@H a z Z y.1762 said:In comparison to other classes:

I think holographic shockwave is on too low of a cd. I also think elixer U gives too many seconds of quickness and stability.

Edit: perhaps a fair nerf would be to decrease the cooldown on elixer u but also decrease the quickness and stab time.

That would be a buff, mate. Elixir U is also a stunbreak. Doing the opposite would actually be a nerf.

Hyperbole, AWAYYYYY.

Seriously though, every time the subject of holo comes up, you chime in. Then I chime in. Then we circle around the same tired old arguments. You claim that holo hasn't seen any major nerfs. I point out several substantial nerfs to damage and sustain. You claim healing turret is the best heal in the game. I point out that Heat Therapy is the problem. You claim that "There's too much stability" and almost everyone points out that you can just avoid corona burst to prevent the majority of stability holo has access to (don't even need to dodge, just range or kite).

Can we just stop circling around the same tired arguments?You only pretend*.Its kinda ridiculous "we shouldnt nerf holo because year ago it had some nerfs", I had a good laugh.HT isnt the main issue, its part of it. HT alone wont stop them from spamming forge with low cds carelessly, the amount of passives to help them as well.I get that you want such nerf that wont affect real issues so it be OP still, pretty obvious, talking with such people is pointless, so I wont.

This is what we call "moving the goalposts." I pointed out several places where your anger was misguided, but then you shift it to another, generally vaguer problem.

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Point proven, still better damage for absolutely no effort at all. They have no incentive in using other skills because autoattack effectively has less heat generation DPS wise, people only use skills when it benefit them which is fine, but those skills that generate heat should be were the damage mostly come from.

If you add 25 might, stability (whether it's corona burst or not.) and quickness, it's a brain dead receipt worst than Spellbreaker Tether/CC damage combined, it takes absolutely no critical thinking or risk when you can disengage safely with that many tools and evades available.

Therefor damage should have been nerfed a while ago if they can just move their way around so much without much effort, it will compensate for the nerf. Not core traits that kill Core or Scrapper even more.

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Reducing / reworking heat therapy and making entering / exiting Holo mode not count towards kinetic battery would go a long way.I would personally reduce the stealth on elixir toss. Or making it only stealthing yourself.

I would eventually tone down alchemy. The amount of sustain that traitline gives is crazy.

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@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:Reducing / reworking heat therapy and making entering / exiting Holo mode not count towards kinetic battery would go a long way.I would personally reduce the stealth on elixir toss. Or making it only stealthing yourself.

I would eventually tone down alchemy. The amount of sustain that traitline gives is crazy.

I've been also suggesting many of these same 100+ IQ changes to Holosmith:

  • Exiting Photon Forge not count as a Toolbelt skill (static discharge and Kinetic Battery Purposes.)
  • Quickness no longer affects the wind-up on Corona Burst (still affects cast). This will allow players to build muscle memory for dodging the 2nd Corona Burst hit. This is more of a bug fix. Does quickness affect the delay on Staff Ele's Ice Spike, Eruption? I think not.
  • Heat therapy nerfed, this depends on how Holo is performing relative to other classes. If other meta classes are getting hard nerfs simultaneously, Heat Therapy could be gutted hard to keep Holo balanced.
  • Elixir U CD increased.

To address alchemy, which is a mandatory traitline in every single build conceived that was considered viable, in the same patch you obviously have to spread the power out to other traitlines. Core and Scrapper abuse the hell out of Alchemy as much as possible and still are bad.

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@Chaith.8256 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:
  • Quickness no longer affects the wind-up on Corona Burst (still affects cast). This will allow players to build muscle memory for dodging the 2nd Corona Burst hit. This is more of a bug fix. Does quickness affect the delay on Staff Ele's Ice Spike, Eruption? I think not.

The pure amount of quickness is a problem already and it mostly get used with autoattack spam. The dmg from Holo autoattack is also too high (in general autoattacks shouldn't have that high dmg), it is remarkable that a Holo using too much other skills in quickness than autottack will lose to a Holo good in braindead spamming it. And that even in the light of having insane low cds on all Holo skills that skill wastes and braindead spam doesn't get punished hard enough on Holo anyway.

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@Chaith.8256 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:Reducing / reworking heat therapy and making entering / exiting Holo mode not count towards kinetic battery would go a long way.I would personally reduce the stealth on elixir toss. Or making it only stealthing yourself.

I would eventually tone down alchemy. The amount of sustain that traitline gives is crazy.

I've been also suggesting many of these same 100+ IQ changes to Holosmith:
  • Exiting Photon Forge not count as a Toolbelt skill (static discharge and Kinetic Battery Purposes.)
  • Quickness no longer affects the wind-up on Corona Burst (still affects cast). This will allow players to build muscle memory for dodging the 2nd Corona Burst hit. This is more of a bug fix. Does quickness affect the delay on Staff Ele's Ice Spike, Eruption? I think not.
  • Heat therapy nerfed, this depends on how Holo is performing relative to other classes. If other meta classes are getting hard nerfs simultaneously, Heat Therapy could be gutted hard to keep Holo balanced.
  • Elixir U CD increased.

To address alchemy, which is a mandatory traitline in every single build conceived that was considered viable, in the same patch you obviously have to spread the power out to other traitlines. Core and Scrapper abuse the hell out of Alchemy as much as possible and still are bad.

Since PoF launch, the sustain of everybody else has already been gutted:

Ranger : druid deleted from pvp , soulbeast stances halved in PvP/unblockable removed/dmg nerf/smokescale nerfed/core sustain nerfed with Rugged growth and windborne notesnecro : reaper sustain nerfs, scourge dmg nerfsGuardian : core guard build nerfedMesmer : chrono nerfed from PvP , condi mirage saw several nerfs and CI will soon be nerfed outElementalist : being nerfed for years now including weaver sword up to recently , with the nerfs to others now they have fire line weaver to play with and it's not that godly specRevenant : sword nerfs, dmg nerfs

That leave warrior with spellbreaker which offers good counterplay...save Rampage which pff whatever leave it

About engi....the only hard nerf was the removal of passive Elixir S and a slap on the wrist with corona blast stability trait....let's not consider the "removal" of rifle shooting without LoS as nerfs...other professions got that treatment several years ago ( like ele phoenix or comet ).

We are here today because everybody else got hard nerfed already and engi got left out and my thought is because it doesn't seem to be very popular in pve raids or general open world , so the devs drag their feet with engi when it comes to nerfs

When you talk about hard nerfs to others...I wonder what left to hard nerf on ranger where people now use more core ranger than soulbeast or guardian or ele or mesmer or anybody else

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@"Arheundel.6451" said:About engi....the only hard nerf was the removal of passive Elixir S and a slap on the wrist with corona blast stability trait....let's not consider the "removal" of rifle shooting without LoS as nerfs...other professions got that treatment several years ago ( like ele phoenix or comet ).

We are here today because everybody else got hard nerfed already and engi got left out and my thought is because it doesn't seem to be very popular in pve raids or general open world , so the devs drag their feet with engi when it comes to nerfs

Your first mistake was looking at it by each profession as a whole. Second mistake was purposefully leaving out that Engi(Scrapper) had Rapid Regeneration, Adaptive Armor, Perfectly Weighted, Recovery Matrix, F5 skill all functionally deleted in favor of things that have much less sustain and utility. You went through every spec that recently got gutted, but I'm guessing Scrapper didn't make your thorough list of nerfs every profession has gotten cause' it didn't fit your narrative that ArenaNet purposefully let's Engineers fall under the radar. It's in the same boat that Druid is. Keep the discussion to Holo specifically and you won't look as biased

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@Chaith.8256 said:

@"Arheundel.6451" said:About engi....
the only hard nerf was the removal of passive Elixir S
and a slap on the wrist with corona blast stability trait....let's not consider the "removal" of rifle shooting without LoS as nerfs...other professions got that treatment several years ago ( like ele phoenix or comet ).

We are here today because everybody else got hard nerfed already and engi got left out and
my thought is because it doesn't seem to be very popular in pve raids or general open world
, so the devs drag their feet with engi when it comes to nerfs

Your first mistake was looking at it by each profession as a whole. Second mistake was purposefully leaving out that Engi(Scrapper) had Rapid Regeneration, Adaptive Armor, Perfectly Weighted, Recovery Matrix, F5 skill all functionally deleted in favor of things that have much less sustain and utility. You went through every spec that recently got gutted, but I'm guessing Scrapper didn't make your thorough list of nerfs every profession has gotten cause' it didn't fit your narrative that ArenaNet purposefully let's Engineers fall under the radar. It's in the same boat that Druid is. Keep the discussion to Holo specifically and you won't look as biased

Holosmith autoattack is still out of whack and can be spammed too easily. If it can outdo professions that have more gameplay risks and less options, it clearly calls for a nerf.

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@Shao.7236 said:

@"Arheundel.6451" said:About engi....
the only hard nerf was the removal of passive Elixir S
and a slap on the wrist with corona blast stability trait....let's not consider the "removal" of rifle shooting without LoS as nerfs...other professions got that treatment several years ago ( like ele phoenix or comet ).

We are here today because everybody else got hard nerfed already and engi got left out and
my thought is because it doesn't seem to be very popular in pve raids or general open world
, so the devs drag their feet with engi when it comes to nerfs

Your first mistake was looking at it by each profession as a whole. Second mistake was purposefully leaving out that Engi(Scrapper) had Rapid Regeneration, Adaptive Armor, Perfectly Weighted, Recovery Matrix, F5 skill all functionally deleted in favor of things that have much less sustain and utility. You went through every spec that recently got gutted, but I'm guessing Scrapper didn't make your thorough list of nerfs every profession has gotten cause' it didn't fit your narrative that ArenaNet purposefully let's Engineers fall under the radar. It's in the same boat that Druid is. Keep the discussion to Holo specifically and you won't look as biased

Holosmith autoattack is still out of whack and can be spammed too easily. If it can outdo professions that have more gameplay risks and less options, it clearly calls for a nerf.

Totally unrelated to what I was saying and I agree

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@Chaith.8256 said:

@"Arheundel.6451" said:About engi....
the only hard nerf was the removal of passive Elixir S
and a slap on the wrist with corona blast stability trait....let's not consider the "removal" of rifle shooting without LoS as nerfs...other professions got that treatment several years ago ( like ele phoenix or comet ).

We are here today because everybody else got hard nerfed already and engi got left out and
my thought is because it doesn't seem to be very popular in pve raids or general open world
, so the devs drag their feet with engi when it comes to nerfs

Your first mistake was looking at it by each profession as a whole. Second mistake was purposefully leaving out that Engi(Scrapper) had Rapid Regeneration, Adaptive Armor, Perfectly Weighted, Recovery Matrix, F5 skill all functionally deleted in favor of things that have much less sustain and utility. You went through every spec that recently got gutted, but I'm guessing Scrapper didn't make your thorough list of nerfs every profession has gotten cause' it didn't fit your narrative that ArenaNet purposefully let's Engineers fall under the radar. It's in the same boat that Druid is. Keep the discussion to Holo specifically and you won't look as biased

Some number nerfing on Heat therapy won't magically cause a drop of Holo from OP to UP state and we both know that....We first nerf the overperforming specs and then we keep going with the conversation which by the way would require all parties involved to have working knowledge of all other classes and the conditions under which they operate, that does not seem to be the case now...unless you want to tell us why other specs should be nerfed

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@googel.3278 said:Kek, sounds like someone wants ele to not be toppled against having another class that can do better, pretty sure nike eles alon with massive sustain and heals want more out from their bargain. “anet pls give me more runs”

The best option would be to cut by 80% the current sustain of all specs that don't use a healing amulet to have sustain.... like it has always been eles, for example I would cut Monk's focus from base 2k heal to 300 at 0 healing power , I would do so for all specs and also lower the dmg coefficient of all specs that do zerker level of dmg while using amulets like demolisher or paladin...you should go glass cannon with zero sustain to have burst..like eles do.

How that sound like idea?

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@Arheundel.6451 said:

@"googel.3278" said:Kek, sounds like someone wants ele to not be toppled against having another class that can do better, pretty sure nike eles alon with massive sustain and heals want more out from their bargain. “anet pls give me more runs”

The best option would be to cut by 80% the current sustain of all specs that don't use a healing amulet to have sustain.... like it has always been eles, for example I would cut
Monk's focus
from base 2k heal to 300 at 0 healing power , I would do so for all specs and also lower the dmg coefficient of all specs that do zerker level of dmg while using amulets like demolisher or paladin...you should go glass cannon with zero sustain to have burst..like eles do.

How that sound like idea?

I'm assuming this is their way of countering the power boost from the elite specs to prevent the "glass cannon" meta where everyone just spikes each other down. But now they've dished all of that sustain into a select few classes giving them low risk high reward builds while the others just get left in the dust.

I don't know. People are going to complain about mirage until they just delete the class completely. They keep making changes to it, Firebrand, and Scourge, and ignoring the other more prominent issues like holo.

I don't even remember the bomb dodge build being this terrible before they nerfed it. It's like by fixing that one build they managed to push one twice as strong.

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@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:About engi....
the only hard nerf was the removal of passive Elixir S
and a slap on the wrist with corona blast stability trait....let's not consider the "removal" of rifle shooting without LoS as nerfs...other professions got that treatment several years ago ( like ele phoenix or comet ).

We are here today because everybody else got hard nerfed already and engi got left out and
my thought is because it doesn't seem to be very popular in pve raids or general open world
, so the devs drag their feet with engi when it comes to nerfs

Your first mistake was looking at it by each profession as a whole. Second mistake was purposefully leaving out that Engi(Scrapper) had Rapid Regeneration, Adaptive Armor, Perfectly Weighted, Recovery Matrix, F5 skill all functionally deleted in favor of things that have much less sustain and utility. You went through every spec that recently got gutted, but I'm guessing Scrapper didn't make your thorough list of nerfs every profession has gotten cause' it didn't fit your narrative that ArenaNet purposefully let's Engineers fall under the radar. It's in the same boat that Druid is. Keep the discussion to Holo specifically and you won't look as biased

Some number nerfing on Heat therapy won't magically cause a drop of Holo from OP to UP state and we both know that....We first nerf the overperforming specs and then we keep going with the conversation which by the way would require all parties involved to have working knowledge of all other classes and the conditions under which they operate, that does not seem to be the case now...unless you want to tell us why other specs should be nerfed

So I have to admit I'm disappointed you summarized all suggestions to balance holo as just magical heat therapy changes. That's just flat out wrong

Changes slated to happen:

  • 20% Less damage on corona burst
  • 300 Less radius on Holo Shockwave

My extended suggestions ITT alone

  • Exit Photon Forge no longer counting as a Toolbelt
  • Quickness no longer affecting wind up of corona burst
  • Elixir U cooldown nerfed
  • Heat Therapy reduced ranging from shaved to gutted, you can affect Holos performance drastically from a hard nerf to this trait, most plebs don't realize venting a bar of heat by dodges or waiting is equivalent to a healing skill.. Maybe making heat therapy only function well with high healing stat, just an idea.

You mentioned yourself your goalpost is to take Holo from OP to UP. Seeing as that would make every Engi spec underpowered in PvP, maybe consider aiming for balance instead of whack a mole

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