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GW2’s business model is at odds with its in-game rewards


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@zealex.9410 said:

@zealex.9410 said:Tl;dr a model that relies more on paid dlc and expansions or expansions and a shb fee or a combination of all 3 is superior.

Yes.

But even the games with a combo of those have cash stores. And the best and/or "shiniest" items are reserved for said stores there too.

As usual in today's gaming industry, why just make money when you can make "all" the money.

Yeah, you cant avoid the cash shop but at least you can havw a fairer ratio of ingame rewards to paid ones.But "fair" is a totally subjective measurement. Personally I rarely see anything in the gemstore that I'd like to have. Most of it is way too over-the-top for my taste. On the other hand I really liked a lot of the weapon and armor skins they have given in game, and have actively adjusted my gameplay to get some of them. I have bought a couple of gliders from the gemstore (I think three at the latest count), as well as a few outfits as I enjoy the convenience of occasionally changing the look without messing with transmutations and dyes (so I can always fall back to the previous armor skins without hassle), but haven't felt the need to get any non-standard mount skins yet.

Looking from my personal point of view, the ratio between ingame and gemstore rewards is near perfect. I don't expect everybody else to share my view, as taste differs from person to person, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were quite a few people around with similar tastes like mine, either.

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@Rasimir.6239 said:

@zealex.9410 said:Tl;dr a model that relies more on paid dlc and expansions or expansions and a shb fee or a combination of all 3 is superior.

Yes.

But even the games with a combo of those have cash stores. And the best and/or "shiniest" items are reserved for said stores there too.

As usual in today's gaming industry, why just make money when you can make "all" the money.

Yeah, you cant avoid the cash shop but at least you can havw a fairer ratio of ingame rewards to paid ones.But "fair" is a totally subjective measurement. Personally I rarely see anything in the gemstore that I'd like to have. Most of it is way too over-the-top for my taste. On the other hand I really liked a lot of the weapon and armor skins they have given in game, and have actively adjusted my gameplay to get some of them. I have bought a couple of gliders from the gemstore (I think three at the latest count), as well as a few outfits as I enjoy the convenience of occasionally changing the look without messing with transmutations and dyes (so I can always fall back to the previous armor skins without hassle), but haven't felt the need to get any non-standard mount skins yet.

Looking from my personal point of view, the ratio between ingame and gemstore rewards is near perfect. I don't expect everybody else to share my view, as taste differs from person to person, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were quite a few people around with similar tastes like mine, either.

Its not about preference its about how much stuff we get in the gemstore vs in game. Its overwhelmingly tipped towards cash shop, esp in mount apearances, gliders, weapons etc.

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@zealex.9410 said:

@zealex.9410 said:Yeah, you cant avoid the cash shop but at least you can havw a fairer ratio of ingame rewards to paid ones.But "fair" is a totally subjective measurement. Personally I rarely see anything in the gemstore that I'd like to have. Most of it is way too over-the-top for my taste. On the other hand I really liked a lot of the weapon and armor skins they have given in game, and have actively adjusted my gameplay to get some of them. I have bought a couple of gliders from the gemstore (I think three at the latest count), as well as a few outfits as I enjoy the convenience of occasionally changing the look without messing with transmutations and dyes (so I can always fall back to the previous armor skins without hassle), but haven't felt the need to get any non-standard mount skins yet.

Looking from my personal point of view, the ratio between ingame and gemstore rewards is near perfect. I don't expect everybody else to share my view, as taste differs from person to person, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were quite a few people around with similar tastes like mine, either.

Its not about preference its about how much stuff we get in the gemstore vs in game. Its overwhelmingly tipped towards cash shop, esp in mount apearances, gliders, weapons etc.It was established above, that some categories (namely outfits, mount skins and gliders) are available (mostly) through one channel alone (gemstore), while others (armor skins, legendary, infusions) are available in-game only. It's hard to compare those in quantity, since the amount of work that goes into a set of armor isn't exactly the same as the one that goes into a glider or even mount skin. Did you make a list to compare them, or is this more a perception judgement?

As for weapon skins, those are the odd ones, since they are available through different channels. Do you count blacklion skins (that can be farmed via key farming/map exploration or simply bought for gold from the trading post) as gemstore or ingame rewards? How many pure gemstore (non-ticket) skins were released over the course of season 4? If I'm not mistaken we did get four weapon sets (astral, stellar, dragonsblood, and heroic dragonsblood), as well as some standalone weapons (Joko's staff, legendary precursors) in game during that time.

What about wardrobe unlocks (through key farming or birthday gifts)? Does my ghastly grinning shield skin that I got through a wardrobe unlock from a random map completion key count as in-game or gemstore reward?

Sorry about being picky here, but your preception differs quite a bit from mine, and I'd really like to know if it's based on research (and what parameters you used) or "just" personal perception.

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@"Erasculio.2914" said:

  • Convenience: such as the shared inventory slots, more bag slots, and so on. However, games in which convenience is the main product being sold usually rely heavily on artificial inconveniences in order to sell convenience. One example of this is The Old Republic, in which even a second skill bar is locked behind a pay wall. While GW2’s store has many convenience items, many aren’t that sought (such as the repair canisters, the revive orbs, etc), and the game has not been filled with artificial inconveniences.

Sorry for focusing on this, but it is a bad comparison. SWTOR has a completely different model and that "pay wall" only exists if you're not a subscriber. Also, anything QOL in SWTOR can and should be unlocked account wide. There are plenty of inconveniences in this game. There is however nothing "convenient" about having to buy additional inventory slots for every single character or a makeover-kit with every character slot. Man, do I miss the appearance designer in SWTOR...

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@Rasimir.6239 said:

@zealex.9410 said:Tl;dr a model that relies more on paid dlc and expansions or expansions and a shb fee or a combination of all 3 is superior.

Yes.

But even the games with a combo of those have cash stores. And the best and/or "shiniest" items are reserved for said stores there too.

As usual in today's gaming industry, why just make money when you can make "all" the money.

Yeah, you cant avoid the cash shop but at least you can havw a fairer ratio of ingame rewards to paid ones.But "fair" is a totally subjective measurement. Personally I rarely see anything in the gemstore that I'd like to have. Most of it is way too over-the-top for my taste. On the other hand I really liked a lot of the weapon and armor skins they have given in game, and have actively adjusted my gameplay to get some of them. I have bought a couple of gliders from the gemstore (I think three at the latest count), as well as a few outfits as I enjoy the convenience of occasionally changing the look without messing with transmutations and dyes (so I can always fall back to the previous armor skins without hassle), but haven't felt the need to get any non-standard mount skins yet.

Looking from my personal point of view, the ratio between ingame and gemstore rewards is near perfect. I don't expect everybody else to share my view, as taste differs from person to person, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were quite a few people around with similar tastes like mine, either.

Liking the design of a skin or not is, of course, subjective. But there are still objective qualities to it like texture work, mesh detail, animations.

You may not like the look of the gem store stuff but the fact remains that they are more elaborate than most of in-game rewards. Especially since a big chunk of in-game stuff comes from core.

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@zealex.9410 said:

@zealex.9410 said:Tl;dr a model that relies more on paid dlc and expansions or expansions and a shb fee or a combination of all 3 is superior.

Yes.

But even the games with a combo of those have cash stores. And the best and/or "shiniest" items are reserved for said stores there too.

As usual in today's gaming industry, why just make money when you can make "all" the money.

Yeah, you cant avoid the cash shop but at least you can havw a fairer ratio of ingame rewards to paid ones.But "fair" is a totally subjective measurement. Personally I rarely see anything in the gemstore that I'd like to have. Most of it is way too over-the-top for my taste. On the other hand I really liked a lot of the weapon and armor skins they have given in game, and have actively adjusted my gameplay to get some of them. I have bought a couple of gliders from the gemstore (I think three at the latest count), as well as a few outfits as I enjoy the convenience of occasionally changing the look without messing with transmutations and dyes (so I can always fall back to the previous armor skins without hassle), but haven't felt the need to get any non-standard mount skins yet.

Looking from my personal point of view, the ratio between ingame and gemstore rewards is near perfect. I don't expect everybody else to share my view, as taste differs from person to person, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were quite a few people around with similar tastes like mine, either.

Its not about preference its about how much stuff we get in the gemstore vs in game. Its overwhelmingly tipped towards cash shop, esp in mount apearances, gliders, weapons etc.

This is overwhelmingly wrong for weapons.And just wrong for armour.

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Mmm, I have spent approx 5 times as much cash on gw2 than on all my other mmos combined.The reasons are:1) no power creep - power creep also tends to go hand-in-hand with p2w, not always but very often2) minimal artifical inconveniences3) no subscription4) no gouging(#4 is the most Impt and kinda like the summary of 1-3)

I find gw2's balance (gold-to-gems, farming needs, default-vs-cash conveniences) just nice.

I don't know about the average gem-purchaser's player profile, but I would really appreciate if Anet keeps away from that direction.

{I am in the alts-heavy grp of casual playersI spend little on cash-heavy games, and I spend absolutely nothing on p2w games.}

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@DonArkanio.6419 said:

@ugrakarma.9416 said:its 6 years+, its time to add new power cap level, once a time every 6 years dont hurt... its happent to ppl be scared of WoW grind at every year adding a new power cap... but 1 once every 6 years dont hurt nothing.

No just No

Oh yes please. We need it.

This game has gathered a special type of community, many of which enjoy the non progressive gear nature. You are free to play any of the other MMORPGS which do not offer this Unique Selling Point, instead of sacrificing one of this games unique features which distinguishes it from all the other games.

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@DonArkanio.6419 said:

@ugrakarma.9416 said:its 6 years+, its time to add new power cap level, once a time every 6 years dont hurt... its happent to ppl be scared of WoW grind at every year adding a new power cap... but 1 once every 6 years dont hurt nothing.

No just No

Oh yes please. We need it.

Please explain why.

Especially after the backlash for ascended tier armour.

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@DonArkanio.6419 said:

@"ugrakarma.9416" said:its 6 years+, its time to add new power cap level, once a time every 6 years dont hurt... its happent to ppl be scared of WoW grind at every year adding a new power cap... but 1 once every 6 years dont hurt nothing.

No just No

Oh yes please. We need it.

At this critical point of this game's life, a move like that will almost certainly kill it.

There is a general feel of displeasure among GW2 players at this point for various reasons. Now, imagine asking this already sceptical and diminished playerbase to throw their hard earned ascended and legendaries in the trash because the level cap was raised or a new tier was introduced.

Other MMOs have died for less. So unless one is looking to eat popcorn while "watching the world burn", I can't see how we "need it".

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@mindcircus.1506 said:

@"Shadowmoon.7986" said:Now to not be disingenuous i will admit fused weapons were better looking than most skins at the time, but that was the exception, not the rule, just looked at the jade and sclerite weapons, which were also obtainable ingame.You are painting an incomplete picture in order to support your case. When I look at the last few weapon sets added as ingame earnables, the Funerary, the Forged, the Heroic Dragonsblood, the Stellar set... all of these weapon sets are absolutely the same level of quality as any BL set. When I look at the last two armor sets added to the game, they are absolutely on par with any of the outfits released over the past two years.... and they are armor sets, not one piece outfits that are impossible to customize. You know... exactly what the community asked for.Despite having zero interest in the Starborn outfit (I find it pretty silly and gaudy) I had a BL Key drop while playing in Dragonfall today and got it.That makes it ingame earnable. I earned it in game.Mount skins are solely locked behind the gem store.Gold to Gems means no cosmetic item is "solely locked behind the gem store".Gold to gem is an tired argument, and made by those who didn't even remember first day in their economic 101 class. Remember there is no such thing as a free lunch, when you do gems to gold, your letting a whale pay for that mount skins instead of you. Gem do no matterize out of nowhere, someone has to buy them with real money. Have you not notice how high the conversion is now, less people are coverting gems to gold right now for whatever reason. Remember how low gem prices were when anet was selling ultimate editions of expacs where 4k gem were half off.Also stating black lion keys are not gemstore lootboxes because you can get few ingame from keyfarming, doing one time only reward tracks, map completion or just a random drop is also disengenious. The majority of those being rewarded with that skin will come from keys they spend real money on. You are citing and very unlikely situation, blk drop very rarely, you got uncommon drop which has 10% chance at happening, and getting the oufit out of 18 items in that pool. This is completely different than doing cm 100 45 days to get enough currency to buy the infusion.And last, compare how many weapon sets came out in core tyria compare to the amount of weapon skins sold in the gemstore, now look at pof, 9.3 weapon sets, where 4 are just upgrades of another 4 compared with the amount of blk skins.

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@"Shep.4026" said:There is however nothing "convenient" about having to buy additional inventory slots for every single character or a makeover-kit with every character slot. Man, do I miss the appearance designer in SWTOR...

I have multiple make-over kit's and any other kit in my bank ... I wish I could sell them when I get them as I NEVER use them so this "having to buy them" is just nuts. It is a want not a need. The same with anything in the Gem Store. Want not need. I wanted full shared inventory slots so I bought them ... when they went on sale. I wanted an extra char slot so I bought it ... on sale. I wanted full bag slots so I bought them. Nothing in the game said I had to have them. Pure want not need.

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@"PyrateSilly.4710" said:>I have multiple make-over kit's and any other kit in my bank ... I wish I could sell them when I get them as I NEVER use them so this "having to buy them" is just nuts. It is a want not a need. The same with anything in the Gem Store. Want not need. I wanted full shared inventory slots so I bought them ... when they went on sale. I wanted an extra char slot so I bought it ... on sale. I wanted full bag slots so I bought them. Nothing in the game said I had to have them. Pure want not need.

Yeah, so, what's your point? If I WANT all character-customization options, I HAVE to buy a makeover-kit. With no word did I say i NEED to buy them. I have to have to those options, the hair-styles and colours, the eyes and eye colors, the scars. I have to have them, because I want them. What I don't want is a lecture from you. Are you seriously going to pretend as if you structure your whole gaming experience around needs? Don't make me laugh... As if you've never looked at something that you definitely didn't "need" and thought "I have to have that!"

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@kharmin.7683 said:

@ProtoGunner.4953 said:There should be mount and glider skins available in game. There are so many and not a single one can you get in game (aside from the three legendary backpacks/gliders).

Play the game. Get gold. Convert gold -> gems. Buy mount and/or glider skin from store.

IMO it is vastly different and less appreciated if you get the items with gold-gem conversion. The point is that the game would have bigger incentive and appeal if you get such skins with in game quests/collection/lore.

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@Shep.4026 said:

@"PyrateSilly.4710" said:>I have multiple make-over kit's and any other kit in my bank ... I wish I could sell them when I get them as I NEVER use them so this "having to buy them" is just nuts. It is a want not a need. The same with anything in the Gem Store. Want not need. I wanted full shared inventory slots so I bought them ... when they went on sale. I wanted an extra char slot so I bought it ... on sale. I wanted full bag slots so I bought them. Nothing in the game said I had to have them. Pure want not need.

Yeah, so, what's your point? If I WANT all character-customization options, I HAVE to buy a makeover-kit. With no word did I say i NEED to buy them. I have to have to those options, the hair-styles and colours, the eyes and eye colors, the scars. I have to have them, because I want them. What I don't want is a lecture from you. Are you seriously going to pretend as if you structure your whole gaming experience around needs? Don't make me laugh... As if you've never looked at something that you definitely didn't "need" and thought "I have to have that!"

As a 52 year old female, no I have not. I 'have to' have food to survive. I 'have to' have water to also survive. That's pretty much it. Shelter? It depends on the environment on if that is a necessity or not to survive. Other people? Not really as I am very much a solo traveler. If needed pretty much all I own can fit just in my car if I want to move and travel anywhere with everything. So no. I play because I 'want to' not because I 'need to'. I get things from the gem store because I 'want to' not because I 'need to'.

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@ProtoGunner.4953 said:

@ProtoGunner.4953 said:There should be mount and glider skins available in game. There are so many and not a single one can you get in game (aside from the three legendary backpacks/gliders).

Play the game. Get gold. Convert gold -> gems. Buy mount and/or glider skin from store.

IMO it is vastly different and less appreciated if you get the items with gold-gem conversion. The point is that the game would have bigger incentive and appeal if you get such skins with in game quests/collection/lore.

I agree, but then Anet would miss out on those who actually purchase gems with cash to get these items because either they can't wait or they have no desire to farm for the items. We can't know the statistics, but I'd imagine that this is a sizeable portion of the player-base, else Anet wouldn't continue with this model.

If they made items both available in game and in the store, it's likely that this statistic might change enough to make it detrimental to their bottom line.

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@ugrakarma.9416 said:

@ugrakarma.9416 said:its 6 years+, its time to add new power cap level, once a time every 6 years dont hurt...You probably haven't seen how bad the ascended gear backlash was and how it hurt the game. I have.

hurt? i have 7+ ascended set, i cant imagine how boring game was before because i arrived 4 years ago.. but what was the fun in playing with same exo gear forever?What's the fun in having to regear over and over again? I don't find preparing to have fun to be fun at all.

Also, thank you for confirming what i suspected - you really haven't seen how bad the ascended backlash was.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@ugrakarma.9416 said:its 6 years+, its time to add new power cap level, once a time every 6 years dont hurt...You probably haven't seen how bad the ascended gear backlash was and how it hurt the game. I have.

hurt? i have 7+ ascended set, i cant imagine how boring game was before because i arrived 4 years ago.. but what was the fun in playing with same exo gear forever?What's the fun in having to regear over and over again? I don't find preparing to have fun to be fun at all.

Also, thank you for confirming what i suspected - you really
haven't
seen how bad the ascended backlash was.

Are you not having fun doing content in mmos and getting gear for it? Isnt ff14 like that?

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