GW2’s business model is at odds with its in-game rewards

[ugrakarma.9416]

@"Astralporing.1957" said:

hurt? i have 7+ ascended set, i cant imagine how boring game was before because i arrived 4 years ago.. but what was the fun in playing with same exo gear forever?What's the fun in having to regear over and over again? I don't find preparing to have fun to be fun at all.

Also, thank you for confirming what i suspected - you really

haven't

seen how bad the ascended backlash was.

but a new tier once every 4~6 years inst "regear over and over" again. its plenty time to anyone accumulate 400g.

[kharmin.7683]

@ugrakarma.9416 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:

hurt? i have 7+ ascended set, i cant imagine how boring game was before because i arrived 4 years ago.. but what was the fun in playing with same exo gear forever?What's the fun in having to regear over and over again? I don't find preparing to have fun to be fun at all.

Also, thank you for confirming what i suspected - you really

haven't

seen how bad the ascended backlash was.

but a new tier once every 4~6 years inst "regear over and over" again. its plenty time to anyone accumulate 400g.

Except for us casuals who are still spending that amount of time getting geared up now.

[Cuks.8241]

@Erasculio.2914 said:The result is a boiling frustration, as players see that their in-game rewards are being hampered by the in-game store. Thus the many requests for mount and glider skins to be made available in game, for more outfits available as rewards, and so on.In the end, it was a poorly-thought decision by ArenaNet to focus both their in-game rewards and their store on the same aspect of the game.

It is hard to conclude that it is poorly-thought model since the game is already running for 7 years and I would say successfully. Maybe not a long time compared to genre's biggest names like Wow or Lineage but I wouldn't say it is bad either. It is up there just behind the largest titles.People always ask for more so I would not really hold that for anything. I've played Wow in vanilla and first 2 expansions which arguably was the pinnacle of the game. Guess what, forums were complaining all the time, asking for more, doomsayers, there was also big rng factor with rewards, more complaining. One big cesspool.I would not say that this player base is frustrated. I mean these forums are actually quite nice and supportive overall.If I understand correctly you want more vertical progression (or that they stop adding skins outside of store :)). I think it would kill the game. It is the biggest selling point of the game and as I pointed out in my first paragraph it looks like it is working. The good thing about no vertical progression is that if you are frustrated you can easily quit for a few months and when you come back you can immediately pick up any new or old content. No grind to reach the gear lvl to participate in end game.

[AlexxxDelta.1806]

@ugrakarma.9416 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:

hurt? i have 7+ ascended set, i cant imagine how boring game was before because i arrived 4 years ago.. but what was the fun in playing with same exo gear forever?What's the fun in having to regear over and over again? I don't find preparing to have fun to be fun at all.

Also, thank you for confirming what i suspected - you really

haven't

seen how bad the ascended backlash was.

but a new tier once every 4~6 years inst "regear over and over" again. its plenty time to anyone accumulate 400g.

GW2 has always been very alt-friendly. I have 5 characters, fully decked in ascended, without considering any of them my "main". I share my playing time between all 5 and I know there are many who do the same with more than that.

A new tier of gear would have me repeating what was by far my absolute worse experience in this game (ascended grind for gold and mats), times 5. As I value my time and enjoyment more than any attachment I have to this game, I'd simply uninstall. And I seriously doubt I'd be the only one.

[blambidy.3216]

I mean I won’t say that it’s poorly. I do agree with many things. But I disagree with people saying gw2 is pay to win because of buy to play method.

I guess every mmo would be pay to win since classes can be released and then the new class could cancel out an old build/class. And only way to get it is to buy some new expansion/dlc to get it. But many games are that way. Is ffxiv pay to win now because their new dancer class cancels out an old boon class? No. The point is this company thought this new class would benefit the game and thought people would like it. So therefore if they like it? they will buy. But can the old build still work? Yes.

Same thing goes for this game. When pof came out. Condi ranger is no more. Condi reaper is no more. Why? Because you have condi soulbeast and scourge. But do these builds not work anymore? No they still work. The thing is in this game elite specs are very overpowered to clear any content in the game with a breeze as long as people know what they are doing.

If people looked at Sc’s old 2 meme tournaments where they would randomly pull classes out to meme out a raid. Weird builds were still clearing bosses within 3 mins. That’s if you know the build very well.

For example there was condi scrapper pulling 20k in sloth, condi mirage boon thing going on in sloth etc. so same thing goes for core classes in this game. As long as you know the right build and practice, you should be fine. You won’t be pulling 30+k like dh on vg. But, 15-18k is enough to kill a raid boss while beating the timer.

As far as like pvp, wvw. Yea elite specs are more suitable. But you can still drop someone with core ele, thief, etc. I just think that people are frustrated that an elite spec is more viable. But it doesn’t make other builds/classes extinct in the game.

Also the thing is nothing in game store you need. You don’t need bank tabs. You don’t need extra bag slots, you don’t need extra material storage. You don’t need a copper fed. You don’t need instant meta portal etc. people (want) them. When you play the game in the beginning you didn’t need any of those things. Later on in the game you hear rumors of “oh you have to have it” when you don’t. Also everything in the gem store can be bought with gold converted to gems.

My only beef with gemstore is mount skins, glider skins, outfits can be grinded out in the game. However do I need a skin? No it’s just decoration. Everything in the gem store you don’t have to buy. Nothing in there makes ascended gear stats higher.

The big thing that can technically pay to win is gems converted to gold to craft ascended gear. And buy infusions. However in this game ascended gear and gold drops like hot cakes. So it really don’t matter if it can be converted. Just play the game and farm maps to craft what you need. Then do fractals. Grind gold for infusion boom. Doesn’t take long. But the important things in this game you can get very fast. The fashion in this game are just what people want rather then what you need to play this game.

[Cyninja.2954]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@ugrakarma.9416 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@ugrakarma.9416 said:its 6 years+, its time to add new power cap level, once a time every 6 years dont hurt...You probably haven't seen how bad the ascended gear backlash was and how it hurt the game. I have.

hurt? i have 7+ ascended set, i cant imagine how boring game was before because i arrived 4 years ago.. but what was the fun in playing with same exo gear forever?What's the fun in having to regear over and over again? I don't find preparing to have fun to be fun at all.

Also, thank you for confirming what i suspected - you really

haven't

seen how bad the ascended backlash was.

Are you not having fun doing content in mmos and getting gear for it? Isnt ff14 like that?

Actually, no I don't. If I did, I'd be playing one of the many other MMORPGs.

I have fun playing content which is fun. Rewards are nice and I absolutely enjoy working towards longterm goals like legendary items and other things in GW2. I enjoy a different carrot than people who NEED to constantly have the power level of their character increase (or be fooled into believing their character power level increases).

Obviously the easiest way to make people feel as though they had progressed is by giving them better stuff. It directly tells them: you character has advanced and is now more powerful.

Unfortunately, either you stop progressing the itemization, which we have right now in GW2 (because that first full ascended character will take every one a long time, second one too). Which then leads to some addicts (this is actually the applicable term here) demand for more itemization be introduced. Or you create an endless loop of new items and gear, which ultimately defeats the purpose of better gear since it automatically becomes obsolete and either old gear gets nerfed, or new encouters get scaled up. Your mind will still get tricked though because every time you get this better stuff, you get this rush of achievement feeling paired with dopamine and serotonin. Your basically an addict (I told you the term applies here) wanting his easy fix, unable to actually enjoy a game for it being a game instead of a loot generator with guaranteed hormone kick.

Until you end up where normal WoW has landed: a so fast itemization and introduction of new gear and grinds, that even the most tenacious players went: what the fuck am I doing here?

[Zaklex.6308]

@ugrakarma.9416 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@ugrakarma.9416 said:its 6 years+, its time to add new power cap level, once a time every 6 years dont hurt...You probably haven't seen how bad the ascended gear backlash was and how it hurt the game. I have.

hurt? i have 7+ ascended set, i cant imagine how boring game was before because i arrived 4 years ago.. but what was the fun in playing with same exo gear forever?

Since the majority of players that started when GW2 was released came from the Original GW, they are/where used to a game that had a set level cap and gear cap, that relied on player skill above all else. None of us where interested in the gear grind type of MMO, otherwise we would have been playing one(not talking about the fact it's also without a monthly fee, that's a separate issue). I had an inside look at the backlash the Devs got from Ascended gear, I even had the chance to tell them it was going to cause a shit-storm, but ultimately it's their game and they made the decision to release Ascended.

@ugrakarma.9416 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

hurt? i have 7+ ascended set, i cant imagine how boring game was before because i arrived 4 years ago.. but what was the fun in playing with same exo gear forever?What's the fun in having to regear over and over again? I don't find preparing to have fun to be fun at all.

Also, thank you for confirming what i suspected - you really

haven't

seen how bad the ascended backlash was.

but a new tier once every 4~6 years inst "regear over and over" again. its plenty time to anyone accumulate 400g.

Every 4 - 6 years...just look at the 800 lb Gorilla in the room and ask those players how often you have to re-gear, it turn more into every 4- 6 months, or when ever a new Expansion/DLC is released(if you don't know what game I'm talking about, take a wild guess).

@Shep.4026 said:

@"PyrateSilly.4710" said:>I have multiple make-over kit's and any other kit in my bank ... I wish I could sell them when I get them as I NEVER use them so this "having to buy them" is just nuts. It is a want not a need. The same with anything in the Gem Store. Want not need. I wanted full shared inventory slots so I bought them ... when they went on sale. I wanted an extra char slot so I bought it ... on sale. I wanted full bag slots so I bought them. Nothing in the game said I had to have them. Pure want not need.

Yeah, so, what's your point? If I WANT all character-customization options, I HAVE to buy a makeover-kit. With no word did I say i NEED to buy them. I have to have to those options, the hair-styles and colours, the eyes and eye colors, the scars. I have to have them, because I want them. What I don't want is a lecture from you. Are you seriously going to pretend as if you structure your whole gaming experience around needs? Don't make me laugh... As if you've never looked at something that you definitely didn't "need" and thought "I have to have that!"

"Want" and "Need" do not go together like bread and butter, you can have one without the other, but of course you might not remember this because we all learned it so many years ago. So your actual statement should read : 'If I WANT all character customization options, I NEED to buy a makeover kit.' Why the difference, because there is an alternative method of getting them, though it might be rare, you can get them from BLTC without actually buying one, therefore you don't HAVE to buy a total makeover kit.

[Astralporing.1957]

@PyrateSilly.4710 said:

@Shep.4026 said:

@PyrateSilly.4710 said:>I have multiple make-over kit's and any other kit in my bank ... I wish I could sell them when I get them as I NEVER use them so this "having to buy them" is just nuts. It is a want not a need. The same with anything in the Gem Store. Want not need. I wanted full shared inventory slots so I bought them ... when they went on sale. I wanted an extra char slot so I bought it ... on sale. I wanted full bag slots so I bought them. Nothing in the game said I had to have them. Pure want not need.

Yeah, so, what's your point? If I WANT all character-customization options, I HAVE to buy a makeover-kit. With no word did I say i NEED to buy them. I have to have to those options, the hair-styles and colours, the eyes and eye colors, the scars. I have to have them, because I want them. What I don't want is a lecture from you. Are you seriously going to pretend as if you structure your whole gaming experience around needs? Don't make me laugh... As if you've never looked at something that you definitely didn't "need" and thought "I have to have that!"

As a 52 year old female, no I have not. I 'have to' have food to survive. I 'have to' have water to also survive. That's pretty much it. Shelter? It depends on the environment on if that is a necessity or not to survive. Other people? Not really as I am very much a solo traveler. If needed pretty much all I own can fit just in my car if I want to move and travel anywhere with everything. So no. I play because I 'want to' not because I 'need to'. I get things from the gem store because I 'want to' not because I 'need to'.Ah, but, using the same approach, the points you brought up are also "wants", not "needs". You 'have to' have food to survive, but your survival is also a case of want, not need. There's literally nothing you

have

to do or posess. Only things you need to do in order to get the things you

want

.(You might

want

to look at Maslov's hierarchy of needs)

So, in that same vein, some people may need full character-customization options in order to have fun playing the game.

@zealex.9410 said:Are you not having fun doing content in mmos and getting gear for it? Isnt ff14 like that?I am playing FF XIV for story, not for gear grind. Regearing is something i never considered fun.

[Erasculio.2914]

And one interesting (IMO) thought experiment:

What could ArenaNet learn from other successful MMORPGs that also use GW2's business model?

...And then stop and think: are there other successful MMORPGs under this business model?

We have WoW and FFXIV, both with a monthly fee and an in-game shop (and both in which there are proportionally a lot more rewards to be earned in game, because those rewards are already "paid off" by the monthly payment). We have The Old Republic (which I'm not sure I would consider a "success", but anyway), with an optional monthly fee and severe restrictions for those who don't pay it. And... Any other successful MMORPG? Any successful one with a similar business model to GW2?

[Khalisto.5780]

they're even lazy enough to mess up even more with their fashion wars, they stop making piece-by-piece armours and came up with the outfits.

I have a feel outfits, but they're mostly thematic, like winter and helloween, which I think is what outfits are meant to be.

Now when you think about balthazar armor, you want to combine those pieces with another armours and you can't. That's why i dont buy most outfits.

Outfits have another problem, since you can't combine them you get tired of them very quickly

I only use outfits on my low level characters, to make and look good without using all my transmutation stones in the process

[Ultramex.1506]

I alway cringe when someone said GW2 need to add higher tier gear as if this is Dragon Ball Z where fights get dumber and dumber where newer villains have slightly higher power, it's all come down to who hit harder devoid of strategy. What Anet need to add is more stats combination (good or bad is for another topic) and instead of making bosses hit slightly harder why don't we, ohh...idk since this game focus on dynamic combat, make bosses smarter with better fight mechanic?But oh nooo don't want to make bosses smarter because someone might post something as ridiculous as thishttps://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/19421/suggestion-stop-making-story-bosses-hard-ls4-spoilers

[alberte.2685]

@"Erasculio.2914" said:And one interesting (IMO) thought experiment:

What could ArenaNet learn from other successful MMORPGs that also use GW2's business model?

...And then stop and think: are there other successful MMORPGs under this business model?

We have WoW and FFXIV, both with a monthly fee and an in-game shop (and both in which there are proportionally a lot more rewards to be earned in game, because those rewards are already "paid off" by the monthly payment). We have The Old Republic (which I'm not sure I would consider a "success", but anyway), with an optional monthly fee and severe restrictions for those who don't pay it. And... Any other successful MMORPG? Any successful one with a similar business model to GW2?

Most of the gem store success stories in the Chinese market, most of which proved to be unsuitable for European and American games, although there is also a case that is close to GW2.GW2 tried to learn Chinese games, but it completely failed. The gold coin gem exchange system is stupid. 95% of the time to update the gem store, from PVE can not get rewards, such game designers in China is absolutely impossible to find a job in the game industry.

[zealex.9410]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@PyrateSilly.4710 said:

@Shep.4026 said:

@PyrateSilly.4710 said:>I have multiple make-over kit's and any other kit in my bank ... I wish I could sell them when I get them as I NEVER use them so this "having to buy them" is just nuts. It is a want not a need. The same with anything in the Gem Store. Want not need. I wanted full shared inventory slots so I bought them ... when they went on sale. I wanted an extra char slot so I bought it ... on sale. I wanted full bag slots so I bought them. Nothing in the game said I had to have them. Pure want not need.

Yeah, so, what's your point? If I WANT all character-customization options, I HAVE to buy a makeover-kit. With no word did I say i NEED to buy them. I have to have to those options, the hair-styles and colours, the eyes and eye colors, the scars. I have to have them, because I want them. What I don't want is a lecture from you. Are you seriously going to pretend as if you structure your whole gaming experience around needs? Don't make me laugh... As if you've never looked at something that you definitely didn't "need" and thought "I have to have that!"

As a 52 year old female, no I have not. I 'have to' have food to survive. I 'have to' have water to also survive. That's pretty much it. Shelter? It depends on the environment on if that is a necessity or not to survive. Other people? Not really as I am very much a solo traveler. If needed pretty much all I own can fit just in my car if I want to move and travel anywhere with everything. So no. I play because I 'want to' not because I 'need to'. I get things from the gem store because I 'want to' not because I 'need to'.Ah, but, using the same approach, the points you brought up are also "wants", not "needs". You 'have to' have food to survive, but your survival is also a case of want, not need. There's literally nothing you

have

to do or posess. Only things you need to do in order to get the things you

want

.(You might

want

to look at Maslov's hierarchy of needs)

So, in that same vein, some people may

need

full character-customization options in order to have fun playing the game.

@zealex.9410 said:Are you not having fun doing content in mmos and getting gear for it? Isnt ff14 like that?I am playing FF XIV for story, not for gear grind. Regearing is something i never considered fun.

so despite the existing existance of the gear chase you are still able to enjoy the story?

[Linken.6345]

@Khalisto.5780 said:they're even lazy enough to mess up even more with their fashion wars, they stop making piece-by-piece armours and came up with the outfits.

I have a feel outfits, but they're mostly thematic, like winter and helloween, which I think is what outfits are meant to be.

Now when you think about balthazar armor, you want to combine those pieces with another armours and you can't. That's why i dont buy most outfits.

Outfits have another problem, since you can't combine them you get tired of them very quickly

I only use outfits on my low level characters, to make and look good without using all my transmutation stones in the process

Well thats becouse the players asked for it, to get armor pieces in game.Then they introduced outfits in the store instead. (since they were cheaper to make and apparently sold like hot cakes)

[FrigginPaco.4178]

Lets take a look at the gemstore's not-so-benign design:

1. Artificial scarcity created through a rotating stock that isn't permanently available for purchase. If every item ever available simply stayed available throughout the year with simple rotating sales, that would be much less problematic. You can pick from anything anytime, you no longer have that 1-2 week crunch that skews your decision making process to make you more susceptible to making a "hot" purchase. "Hot" meaning not based in rational thought, as a result of a manipulative marketing strategy.
2. Moreover, the fact that Living World Episodes do not come automatically with an expansion is a bit reprehensible, as dang near every other MMO will include post-expack content in with the expack for free. This is more of a barrier to new players due to how massively this can interrupt the narrative flow simply due to a mandatory, albeit small, investment in LW episodes
3. Welp, the lootbox that is BLC. Sure, we might get keys from the game and such, but it's the type of mechanic that it uses to snare people into maybe buying a few more, maybe a few more, oh dang I'm at 25 keys and I didn't get that "exclusive" [keyword] glider/weapon skin etc from it.

These issues crept up on me in my time playing GW2 and is probably the single thing I outright wish would be changed forever. However... How else does GW2 make its money? Therein lies the problem. I'm not against the devs making a buck, but when I can more reliably predict when a gemstore update will take place compared when an episode of LW will drop, or god forbid, updates to either of the competitive modes... that's where things become much less savory and a bit bitter.

[AlexVv.3965]

In principle, I am normal about the model of receiving cosmetic awards in GW2. But still, in my opinion, it would be very nice to be able to get some epic, beautiful skins exclusively in the gameplay, and not through the store. This adds interest and excitement to the game, and this is a kind of "reason for pride":) For example, I still remember my joy in WoW, from receiving the Mount "Deathcharger's Reins", Skeletal Horse from Baron Rivendare. 23 entries into the dungeon, and he is mine) After that, in the game I was often asked how many attempts there were, many frankly admired. And the mount itself was damn good)

[Shep.4026]

@"yann.1946" said:You are working under a different definition of need then you. That does not make her wrong. Or you wrong.

It probably would be usefull to give your definition so the discussion can be productive.

Acutally, no. We're working on different definitions of the term "have to (have)".

@"Zaklex.6308" said:"Want" and "Need" do not go together like bread and butter, you can have one without the other, but of course you might not remember this because we all learned it so many years ago. So your actual statement should read : 'If I WANT all character customization options, I NEED to buy a makeover kit.' Why the difference, because there is an alternative method of getting them, though it might be rare, you can get them from BLTC without actually buying one, therefore you don't HAVE to buy a total makeover kit.

I don't really feel like arguing semantics, but what the heck... The term 'have to' isn't prohibited from being used to express necessity. In fact, I prefer to seperate it from any 'need'-necessity. My definition of need might be broader than others, but I sure hope that I can always say that there is nothing about or within a computer-game that I will ever need, on that I'm sure @PyrateSilly.4710 an I can agree. That is why, when I create a new character and have no kits in my bank and want all options in that very moment and not somewhere down the road, as in 'create a character and immediately use a kit to customize that character the way I want', there is a necessity for me to buy a kit. Whether I say I 'have to' or I 'need to' do so is completey bananas, because they can both express a necessity derived from a 'want' and not from a basic need for survival. This difference was crystal clear in my very first post without having to/needing to read between the lines. The use of any of these two terms is completely possible and utterly personal preference.

Now, about the alternative methods of gaining kits, I'm guessing you mean (either) the Chest of Black Lion Goods from the daily login rewards and/(or) the Black Lion Chests which I can open about once a week. True, I probably have received one or two in the past year, but that doesn't cover it. There are also the Black Lion Statuettes, but I prefer to save those for bigger things. If there are any other ways of gaining these, I'd be very happy to hear about them.

[Shep.4026]

@"FrigginPaco.4178" said:Lets take a look at the gemstore's not-so-benign design:

1. Artificial scarcity created through a rotating stock that isn't permanently available for purchase. If every item ever available simply stayed available throughout the year with simple rotating sales, that would be much less problematic. You can pick from anything anytime, you no longer have that 1-2 week crunch that skews your decision making process to make you more susceptible to making a "hot" purchase. "Hot" meaning not based in rational thought, as a result of a manipulative marketing strategy.
2. Moreover, the fact that Living World Episodes do not come automatically with an expansion is a bit reprehensible, as dang near every other MMO will include post-expack content in with the expack for free. This is more of a barrier to new players due to how massively this can interrupt the narrative flow simply due to a mandatory, albeit small, investment in LW episodes
3. Welp, the lootbox that is BLC. Sure, we might get keys from the game and such, but it's the type of mechanic that it uses to snare people into maybe buying a few more, maybe a few more, oh dang I'm at 25 keys and I didn't get that "exclusive" [keyword] glider/weapon skin etc from it.

These issues crept up on me in my time playing GW2 and is probably the single thing I outright wish would be changed forever. However... How else does GW2 make its money? Therein lies the problem. I'm not against the devs making a buck, but when I can more reliably predict when a gemstore update will take place compared when an episode of LW will drop, or god forbid, updates to either of the competitive modes... that's where things become much less savory and a bit bitter.

An excellent breakdown. I agree with every single word and wish I could keep them in mind as I'm definitely a victim of Nr. 1 from time to time.

[Rasimir.6239]

@"Erasculio.2914" said:And one interesting (IMO) thought experiment:

What could ArenaNet learn from other successful MMORPGs that also use GW2's business model?

...And then stop and think: are there other successful MMORPGs under this business model?

We have WoW and FFXIV, both with a monthly fee and an in-game shop (and both in which there are proportionally a lot more rewards to be earned in game, because those rewards are already "paid off" by the monthly payment). We have The Old Republic (which I'm not sure I would consider a "success", but anyway), with an optional monthly fee and severe restrictions for those who don't pay it. And... Any other successful MMORPG? Any successful one with a similar business model to GW2?There's ESO. Not as bad as SW:TOR, but with material storage available only to subscribers and the game rewarding crafting materials all over the place (quite similar to GW2 actually), an hour long play session in that game already makes inventory management without subscription a major annoyance. Add the fact that the game has no centralized auction house/trading post, and you pretty much miss out on half or more of your loot, because you have no decent way to store or sell it.

[LucianDK.8615]

I dont see whats wrong with living world episodes. You get them for -free- if you are online in the period of release. You only have yourself to blame if you dont pay attention to game news and not even log on once for it.

[Astralporing.1957]

@zealex.9410 said:so despite the existing existance of the gear chase you are still able to enjoy the story?Well, gearing up is trivially easy in FF XIV (in many ways easier than in gw2, actually), so it doesn't detract from the game that much. Still, it does detract from the game - gear management is one of the biggest problems i have with FF XIV. Fortunately, as i sais, it is trivially easy, so i can live with it somehow. Additionally, the story is good (extremely good as of the last expac, that is on a level GW2 doesn't even come close to), and that counterbalances the need to regear problem

Basically, if the inconvenience of regearing wasn't minimal, or the story was worse, it would be a big problem. And i still think the game would be way better if you didn't need to to keep replacing that gear over and over again.

[Trise.2865]

@"mindcircus.1506" said:2012: The community vocalizes overwhelming support for a business model that is buy to play with optional cosmetics in the cash shop and a horizontal progression that doesn't include regular new tiers of gear.2019: The community decides that looking cool is the only thing that matters and cosmetics in the cash shop are not acceptable business practice.

I agree that there's a conflict happening.I'm just not sure it's Anet's design so much as a community that tries to paint "Fashion Wars" as the end game in order to justify it's entitlement over shinies.

Funny how context changes things, innit?MMOs in 2012: Pay us rental fees while we design new ways to waste the time you paid for.MMOs in 2019: Waste your time for free, pay us for literally everything else... if you're lucky.

[Bladestrom.6425]

@Trise.2865 said:

@"mindcircus.1506" said:2012: The community vocalizes overwhelming support for a business model that is buy to play with optional cosmetics in the cash shop and a horizontal progression that doesn't include regular new tiers of gear.2019: The community decides that looking cool is the only thing that matters and cosmetics in the cash shop are not acceptable business practice.

I agree that there's a conflict happening.I'm just not sure it's Anet's design so much as a community that tries to paint "Fashion Wars" as the end game in order to justify it's entitlement over shinies.

Funny how context changes things, innit?MMOs in 2012: Pay us rental fees while we design new ways to waste the time you paid for.MMOs in 2019: Waste your time for free, pay us for literally everything else... if you're lucky.

Mm I would say for the latter, gw2 play for free and support gw2 dev and maintanemce cost by optionally buying convenience items and skin. You really struggling to get more generous than that.

[Trise.2865]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Trise.2865 said:

@"mindcircus.1506" said:2012: The community vocalizes overwhelming support for a business model that is buy to play with optional cosmetics in the cash shop and a horizontal progression that doesn't include regular new tiers of gear.2019: The community decides that looking cool is the only thing that matters and cosmetics in the cash shop are not acceptable business practice.

I agree that there's a conflict happening.I'm just not sure it's Anet's design so much as a community that tries to paint "Fashion Wars" as the end game in order to justify it's entitlement over shinies.

Funny how context changes things, innit?MMOs in 2012: Pay us rental fees while we design new ways to waste the time you paid for.MMOs in 2019: Waste your time for free, pay us for literally everything else... if you're lucky.

Mm I would say for the latter, gw2 play for free and support gw2 dev and maintanemce cost by optionally buying convenience items and skin. You really struggling to get more generous than that.

Don't get me wrong. Guild Wars 2 is definitely a bright spot among video games at large and MMOs in particular, but it's no longer the "shining beacon of hope and fairness" it was at launch. And, that isn't (entirely) ANet's fault, considering how badly the then-revolutionary Buy-to-Play business model has been poisoned since 2012 by questionable decisions and far greedier developers.

[ginryu.3026]

@"Erasculio.2914" said:the game has not been filled with artificial inconveniences