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Can we please talk about the "Marked" debuff?


Noodica.5428

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Before we go ahead - I would like to mention that I PERSONALLY called for something to combat permastealth deadeyes before marked sentries etc were added to WvW. I made a video on it which blew up and many people agreed. But instead of sorting this out with the deadeye specialization all stealth oriented builds are literally rendered useless a lot of the time. Take roaming in EBG for example - you run past a tower (literally everywhere), marked, boom stealth is practically out of play for 30 seconds bad luck. Add Sentries and Keeps to that - you are literally countered almost anywhere on the map.

What are these players to do? Only sit in their half of the map? Marked really needs to be looked at because 30s of no stealthing for long at a time is honestly insanely triggering especially in clutch/intense type situations where that stealth really matters but there is literally nothing you can do. Regular D/P Thieves, Many mesmer builds, Holosmith tool belt, rangers who smoke leap or hunters shot, scrappers with stealth gyro etc - why are literally all of these classes punished because of one overpowered class?

In all honesty, as annoying as it was having permastealth deadeyes one shot you from stealth - I would rather see the mode return to how it was BEFORE marked revealed you at every corner of the map. Please look into this, especially now that the potential upcoming WvW changes will implement much more reveal around the board anyway.

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@"Noodica.5428" said:Take roaming in EBG for example - you run past a tower (literally everywhere), marked, boom stealth is practically out of play for 30 seconds bad luck. Add Sentries and Keeps to that - you are literally countered almost anywhere on the map.You can still stealth when marked. IIrc after 3 secs of stealth you get revealed for 3 secs, and can re-enter stealth for another 3 secs afterwards.

Thats what a lot of ppl have asked for: no perma stealth, if you cloak for a short period of time, you should be unable to stealth for the same period afterwards. Imo thats totally fine.

But not in combination with revealed skills, that preemptively apply "revealed" even if the target isn't even in stealth at that moment. And channeling skills that keep tracking the target even if it entered stealth (e. g. SlB rapid fire).

I'd like to see that fixed. E. g. having AoE reveals like Ingi googles or Revs gaze of darkness only work if the enemy is already stealthed. And having SlB sic em or DH hunters verdict only apply "marked" for like 6 secs, instead of "revealed".

And channeling skills that keep tracking and hitting a target entered stealth just seem broken to me.

PS: loved that vid of yours, good luls ;)

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@enkidu.5937 said:

@"Noodica.5428" said:Take roaming in EBG for example - you run past a tower (literally everywhere),
marked
, boom stealth is practically out of play for 30 seconds bad luck. Add Sentries and Keeps to that - you are literally countered almost anywhere on the map.You can still stealth when marked. IIrc after 3 secs of stealth you get revealed for 3 secs, and can re-enter stealth for another 3 secs afterwards.

Thats what a lot of ppl have asked for: no perma stealth, if you cloak for a short period of time, you should be unable to stealth for the same period afterwards. Imo thats totally fine.

But not in combination with revealed skills, that preemptively apply "revealed" even if the target isn't even in stealth at that moment. And channeling skills that keep tracking the target even if it entered stealth (e. g. SlB rapid fire).

I'd like to see that fixed. E. g. having AoE reveals like Ingi googles or Revs gaze of darkness only work if the enemy is already stealthed. And having SlB sic em or DH hunters verdict only apply "marked" for like 6 secs, instead of "revealed".

And channeling skills that keep tracking and hitting a target entered stealth just seem broken to me.

PS: loved that vid of yours, good luls ;)

Thought it was after 2 secs then 3 secs of reveal. Which is an issue when some of the thief's traits trigger at the 3 second mark.

D:

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I don't find myself countered by Mark at all. It was annoying when it first came out and we were getting used to it, but now it's just knowing whether or not you've been marked and playing around that - whether it be continuing to engage or retreating. We have more than enough tools to deal with single enemies without needing to stealth for longer than 2 seconds at a time.

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@GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

@"Noodica.5428" said:Take roaming in EBG for example - you run past a tower (literally everywhere),
marked
, boom stealth is practically out of play for 30 seconds bad luck. Add Sentries and Keeps to that - you are literally countered almost anywhere on the map.You can still stealth when marked. IIrc after 3 secs of stealth you get revealed for 3 secs, and can re-enter stealth for another 3 secs afterwards.

Thats what a lot of ppl have asked for: no perma stealth, if you cloak for a short period of time, you should be unable to stealth for the same period afterwards. Imo thats totally fine.

But not in combination with revealed skills, that preemptively apply "revealed" even if the target isn't even in stealth at that moment. And channeling skills that keep tracking the target even if it entered stealth (e. g. SlB rapid fire).

I'd like to see that fixed. E. g. having AoE reveals like Ingi googles or Revs gaze of darkness only work if the enemy is already stealthed. And having SlB sic em or DH hunters verdict only apply "marked" for like 6 secs, instead of "revealed".

And channeling skills that keep tracking and hitting a target entered stealth just seem broken to me.

PS: loved that vid of yours, good luls ;)

Thought it was after 2 secs then 3 secs of reveal. Which is an issue when some of the thief's traits trigger at the 3 second mark.

D:Ah ok thx for the correction.
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I've only ever played DE after its nerfs, (and without d/p) and In my opinion its still very effective. Hearing horror stories of pre nerf DE sounds like typical Anet fashion in which they refuse to nerf new specs in-order to get that pay to win cash.

But the changes they made to marked is way too much. If a class that utilizes stealth is too strong, then that class should be nerfed (as DE rightfully was) and brought into line with other classes. Presently if your class relies on stealth as a survival tool, or to do damage, then you can't fight when marked against an equally skilled player. Which means there are large sections of the map that you are unable to play in.

Basically no class should be singled out and either given an advantage or disadvantage by tricks/tactics/sentries/buffs or debuffs or any other external game mechanic found in WvW. For instance imagine a tactic that you could put into a tower that disabled all stance type skills after 2 seconds. It would be ridiculous.

WvW classes in an ideal world should be 100% balanced in ALL areas of the maps, the marked debuff prevents this.

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Everyone gets marked for the same durations.There's ways around most marked areas.Don't roam fight around a watch tower, there's plenty of other real estate on the map.Deadeyes still able to stealth for 95% of the time they're in a fight.There's mounts.

Stealth in this game is low tier to put it nicely, it should have been designed for engaging and disengaging from a fight, not spammable and for use for the entirety of a fight, or usable like cloak and dagger on a god damn wall(yes I know that was nerfed 6 years ago). But anet put stealth into the game without much thought into it like thinking of counter plays, because they didn't give a kitten until it was abused on a raid boss. Over the years they've had to add more reveals to the game because there's no reliable counter tells, in Wow you can't walk in front of someone otherwise it gives you a shadow and sound when a stealth is nearby.

So nope, any nerf to stealth is a good nerf, and that's coming from a mesmer main.

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Watchtower/sentry marks are great imo, easier to find /get fights and action. Other wise you can spend ages roaming and find nothing, also makes it easier to scout without having to afk in tower (liek who wants to do this??). Just take care with marked and learn where you can go and then kite/move into an area in your favor. I agree there is too much stealth spam on some classes and i for one have wanted it toned down from the game since day one. But imo there are far more important things anet needs to do b4 this for the sake of the gamemode and its future.

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Stealth is a very bad design in any game. GW2 has let stealth go rampant for so long!The solution is not reveal, but removal! Stealth in any video game does not have a purpose in competitive games because stealth players always has the advantage:

  • Stealth player can run away or play at his or her own pace.
  • You never know when the hit is going to come.
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@Hitman.5829 said:Stealth is a very bad design in any game. GW2 has let stealth go rampant for so long!The solution is not reveal, but removal! Stealth in any video game does not have a purpose in competitive games because stealth players always has the advantage:

  • Stealth player can run away or play at his or her own pace.
  • You never know when the hit is going to come.

Thief has recently seen traps eliminated and seen other skills added. Some are, let’s just say not excited about thief portal.

Careful what you ask for. Take away stealth (which, let’s face it won’t happen anytime soon) and you are going to get something... a lot worse.

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@Hitman.5829 said:Stealth is a very bad design in any game. GW2 has let stealth go rampant for so long!The solution is not reveal, but removal! Stealth in any video game does not have a purpose in competitive games because stealth players always has the advantage:

  • Stealth player can run away or play at his or her own pace.
  • You never know when the hit is going to come.

What you mean to say it, you have a hard time dealing with players who use stealth, so you would like the thing you have a hard time with to go away. I almost always know when something is about to hit me out of stealth, because I'm not lazy and watch what's going on around me. A stealth player can even perma stealth as much as they want, they still have to avoid aoe and cleave and they have to come out to hit and hope their opener isn't mitigated, which it will likely be. A stealth heavy player has to play at my pace.

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https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/85314/evading-while-doing-damage-is-a-broken-mechanic

If dodging or evading while doing damage is truly a broken mechanic, then players should not be able to stealth and do damage. I would agree with the OP that "Marked" should be re-examined but only if players who are stealthed give up their ability to attack other players.

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@"monk seal.8079" said:https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/85314/evading-while-doing-damage-is-a-broken-mechanic

If dodging or evading while doing damage is truly a broken mechanic, then players should not be able to stealth and do damage. I would agree with the OP that "Marked" should be re-examined but only if players who are stealthed give up their ability to attack other players.

Attacking someone while you're in stealth already brings you out of stealth immediately for the attack to activate and gives you a penalty on top of that, what are you trying to suggest?

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@"kash.9213" said:

Attacking someone while you're in stealth already brings you out of stealth immediately for the attack to activate and gives you a penalty on top of that, what are you trying to suggest?

As currently implemented in WvW, the player using stealth has too large an advantage in dictating the course of action. In the majority of cases, the stealthed player will get the first attack. One example: a ranger using Hunter's Shot will stealth for 3 seconds and can reposition to either side of or behind the target. The ranger can then use Rapid Fire and Long Range Shot on the target before that person can even react. If the target correctly guesses the direction from which the stealthed player will attack, he may be able to dodge the attack. Yes, there is a penalty for breaking stealth (Revealed) but that does not help the target who may be dead or in a Downed state after the getting hit by the Rapid Fire and Long Range Shot.

Mesmer mantras are being adjusted because of complaints that there was no counterplay:

"Power Break (Mantra of Pain): This skill now requires you to face your target and respects line of sight.""Power Lock (Mantra of Distraction): This skill now requires you to face your target and respects line of sight."

I believe Stealth should be evaluated so that a player attacked by a stealthed player has reasonable chance for counter play and not have to rely on plain luck.

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@XenesisII.1540 said:Everyone gets marked for the same durations.

This discussion is about certain classes being disadvantaged, not certain players. This is irrelevant.

@XenesisII.1540 said:Don't roam fight around a watch tower, there's plenty of other real estate on the map.

Why? Why should a certain class be forced to do this? Other classes don't need to avoid certain area's of the map like the plague.

@XenesisII.1540 said:There's mounts.

Yes but all classes have mounts, so it's already even without marked being a thing.

@XenesisII.1540 said:Stealth in this game is low tier to put it nicely, it should have been designed for engaging and disengaging from a fight, not spammable and for use for the entirety of a fight, or usable like cloak and dagger on a god kitten wall(yes I know that was nerfed 6 years ago). But anet put stealth into the game without much thought into it like thinking of counter plays, because they didn't give a kitten until it was abused on a raid boss. Over the years they've had to add more reveals to the game because there's no reliable counter tells, in Wow you can't walk in front of someone otherwise it gives you a shadow and sound when a stealth is nearby.

Now we've finally arrived at the problem. But it sounds like to me that your basis for liking marked is that you don't like fighting stealth classes. But Personally this isn't a good enough reason to bully certain classes. However perhaps you believe classes that utilize stealth are overpowered? You'd be in the minority if we go of polls done on these forums RECENTLY. However its a perfectly reasonable opinion to have. The solution is to nerf said classes to the point that they are now evenly matched and viable options to play and play against in all areas of the map. Not allocate certain area's of the map that these classes cannot go. This makes nobody happy, because outside of these area's the classes aforementioned in your eyes are still overpowered, which isn't acceptable game balance. Whilst for people who think the classes are balanced are singled out and heavily nerfed while in these area's. A compromise that leaves nobody satisfied.

@XenesisII.1540 said:So nope, any nerf to stealth is a good nerf, and that's coming from a mesmer main.

What if arena net released a patch tomorrow that did nothing else but remove stealth from the game? No compensation, no re-work, but removed it. That would be a nerf to stealth right? Would it still be a good nerf?

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