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Updated Sept. Engi Balance Changes


Chaith.8256

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Yeah holo has better sustain/dps compared to scrapper for sure but holo is definitely over performing so comparing scrapper to such a spec doesn't really work out well. Scrapper definitely should get a buff in dps cuz being all tank and no spank is a boring spec to play and play against. I'd say scrappers sustain should be slightly lowered but I'd should get a significant buff to dps to put it more in line with something that's hits good and tanks good as well instead of hitting poorly but tanking great. Holo right now does both to a great degree which is a bit much.

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Yeah holo has better sustain/dps compared to scrapper for sure but holo is definitely over performing so comparing scrapper to such a spec doesn't really work out well. Scrapper definitely should get a buff in dps cuz being all tank and no spank is a boring spec to play and play against. I'd say scrappers sustain should be slightly lowered but I'd should get a significant buff to dps to put it more in line with something that's hits good and tanks good as well instead of hitting poorly but tanking great. Holo right now does both to a great degree which is a bit much.

At some point you just have to ask yourself, do I want two elite specs that do the exact same thing?

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Yeah holo has better sustain/dps compared to scrapper for sure but holo is definitely over performing so comparing scrapper to such a spec doesn't really work out well. Scrapper definitely should get a buff in dps cuz being all tank and no spank is a boring spec to play and play against. I'd say scrappers sustain should be slightly lowered but I'd should get a significant buff to dps to put it more in line with something that's hits good and tanks good as well instead of hitting poorly but tanking great. Holo right now does both to a great degree which is a bit much.

There is a DPS route for Scrapper, but it doesn't hit as hard as Holosmith's (and it shouldn't, as it's supposed to be focused around tanking). And I agree with Chaith, if Scrapper gets a significant damage buff to compete with holo, then it's pretty much just holo 2.0. I wouldn't want that. Instead, anet needs to improve where scrapper is supposed to be strong: its defensive kit. And, really, on that factor, all that needs to be done is simply raise Adaptive Armor and Impact Savant from 15% to 20%, or 25% (include condi damage), depending on what testing results yield. Now, i'm not saying this is the only thing needing improved, as Function Gyro still needs a health increase so it doesn't die to 1 downed state auto attack anymore.

The issue with scrapper currently is the -300 vitality trade off for the on demand barrier for hits. While it is a great idea, the problem lies in the barrier application; unless you're a glass cannon, you're not doing enough damage to truly benefit as a tank from the barrier gain, and if you are a glass cannon, well....you have no defense so you're not tanky at all, despite the barrier gain, every hit you take will destroy your barrier and your health rapidly. the changes that Chaith suggested and that I also have been preaching for will put Scrapper in a spot where it's not super tanky like before with old Adaptive Armor (1100+ barrier every 3 seconds when struck, big barrier), but it's not going to die as easily as it does now (current implementation of Impact Savant's 15% damage to barrier convsersion).

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@Prinzsecond.4863 said:Uuuhh I see my condi scrapper playing 3v1 again when barrier-on-condi becomes a Thing .

You think condi Scrapper is going to do so much damage that you'll be able to convert 15% of that to barrier and survive 3 people?

You're deluding yourself, try it first with a power damage build, see how tanking 3 people goes.

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@miriforst.1290 said:I can't help feeling like we are being haggled with.

  1. Propose an insane change.
  2. Propose a lighter change that seems reasonable by comparison, use this momentum to suggest further changes.
  3. People forget the class took a massive nerf that broke core aspects of the scrapper and that this patch is at best implementing some light nerfs and reimplementing a tool they took away (and probably in a weaker form) at the cost of another (poison field for downed cleave and weakness). Notice how there are no proposed changes to the function gyro itself.

Honestly the reduction in vitality penalty is still undercooked given id argue the trait isn't worth any vitality reduction at all given the removal of vital traits like rapid regen and adaptive armor (to name a few of the big hits, just ignoring the removal of stab on dodge and damage mods).

Honestly i'm not surprised if people are gonna go stockholm syndrome over this.

Good thing i got the original game (not gw2, the real guild wars) to wait for people to figure things out.Except if you know how Anet patch things, this is exactly whats needed. Because otherwise they do that insane thing anyway. Basicly Anet patching is like this:

Skill: 30s cd, 6s duration

Community peep #1: its a little OP, increase cd to 40s.Community peep #2: Agreed, but I think they could reduce duration to 4s too.Community peep #3: Nah that would be too harsh, 4s and keep the 30s cd.

Anet: Increased cd to 90s, reduced duration to 2s

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@"Dawdler.8521" said:Skill: 30s cd, 6s duration

Community peep #1: its a little OP, increase cd to 40s.Community peep #2: Agreed, but I think they could reduce duration to 4s too.Community peep #3: Nah that would be too harsh, 4s and keep the 30s cd.

Anet: Increased cd to 90s, reduced duration to 2s

And with a comment "This skill was overperforming, so we listened to community opinions and tuned it down a little bit"

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@Chaith.8256 said:

You think condi Scrapper is going to do so much damage that you'll be able to convert 15% of that to barrier and survive 3 people?

You're deluding yourself, try it first with a power damage build, see how tanking 3 people goes.

Power won't work, but condi may be. All it would Need is those 300-400 barrier/sec to make a big difference again IMO. Depending on the conversion rate, this could be possible with around 3k dps/sec.Before the nerf of scrapper it was also much easier to take on 3 oponents as a condi than as a power scrapper. Reason is that both your heals and your barriers benefit a lot from higher toughness, at least against power-based oponents. So sure, scrapper will never ever be able to take on 3 condi scourges at once^^ but then I would just simply walk away with superspeed as they are slow as hell.

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@Prinzsecond.4863 said:

You think condi Scrapper is going to do so much damage that you'll be able to convert 15% of that to barrier and survive 3 people?

You're deluding yourself, try it first with a power damage build, see how tanking 3 people goes.

Power won't work, but condi may be. All it would Need is those 300-400 barrier/sec to make a big difference again IMO. Depending on the conversion rate, this could be possible with around 3k dps/sec.Before the nerf of scrapper it was also much easier to take on 3 oponents as a condi than as a power scrapper. Reason is that both your heals and your barriers benefit a lot from higher toughness, at least against power-based oponents. So sure, scrapper will never ever be able to take on 3 condi scourges at once^^ but then I would just simply walk away with superspeed as they are slow as hell.

The reason why condi Scrapper was better than power was that toughness benefits heals and barrier?

Outside build choices Condi Scrapper doesn't get inherently higher toughness, nor does toughness benefit healing and barriers at all.

That's just building for toughness over vitality, putting yourself against 3 power melee opponents, and saying it's Condi Scrapper that's so good.

The only way such a condi Scrapper is getting elevated over power Scrapper is if you're fighting melee opponents poorly equipped to deal with condi builds, and you avoid every single condi build or build with condi removal.

You need to be doing 2000-2666 condi ticks per second to get the same barrier that being hit with passive Adaptive Armor previously gave. Encountering any condi removal will put you below that. Also you have -300 (-180) vitality, also you have a dumb Damage Dampener instead of rapid Regeneration, because Object in Motion is pointless. Also no f5, also a trivial Function Gyro skill in it's place.

Condi Scrapper is still gonna be worse than pre-patch, worse than obscure, even once you get 15% damage to barrier conversion.

Condi Scrapper got affected by all the same nerfs that power Scrapper did, really.

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You are ignoring the fact that this trait would output barrier both from condi and direct. Thus... A viper's build will make a ton. A harrier's build makes a lot less. But this means that on that harrier's build, the tiny poison ticks are also making barrier, along with all the extra you get from direct damage.

Tldr, in places where current gear types don't produce enough barrier, then that barrier output will be nearly doubled. (assuming a non condi, non power build's highest dps rotation) in places where glass cannons can produce impressive barrier. (and who plays berserker's scrapper with hammer anyways) then they will produce only slightly more. And so, while we can all agree the current barrier provided by the trait is too weak... I don't understand why we're arguing about making it stronger.

As soon as the engi your trying to kill stops trying to do damage in order to spam water fields, pop stability and the big cool downs on medkit... He's not doing damage... He's not gaining barrier. (outside of hammer, and bulwark gyro)

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@BrokenGlass.9356 said:You are ignoring the fact that this trait would output barrier both from condi and direct. Thus... A viper's build will make a ton. A harrier's build makes a lot less. But this means that on that harrier's build, the tiny poison ticks are also making barrier, along with all the extra you get from direct damage.

It doesn't work like that.

The total damage output (and thus, the total barrier) is similar whether you spec full power, condi, or hybrid. As you take stats away from power/precision/ferocity and put them in condition damage and expertise, as you do with viper, you get proportionally lower power burst to compensate for the increased condi damage.

I mean, feel free to prove me wrong by running some dps tests on a golem if you like, but I'm pretty sure Snow Crows have already done that and the numbers come out near-identical.

Furthermore, both Zerker and Viper have no toughness or vitality, but Zerker guarantees its damage on hit, whereas Viper damage is very often cleansed. This puts hybrid and condition builds at an inherent disadvantage because they have to survive a not-insignificant amount of time while their conditions tick. Zerker builds kill their targets much faster so they have less need for sustain.

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It does work exactly like that. I'm not confused about how stats work. If a full rabid guy gets some barrier, a full vipers guy will get more. Why? Vipers has higher direct. Thus higher damage to barrier conversion rate. Because there's more damage.

Like we can both agree that full clerics gear is generating virtually zero barrier from that trait. But every class does some direct and some condi. So if you gear in clerics, then they make condi damage apply barrier in a small conversion, that cleric geared toon will get more barrier than they did before. Why? Because condi didn't calculate before, and now thier Elixer gun's poison spray is returning barrier. A lot of barrier? No. More than zero? Yes.

Will a berserker build produce more barrier? Yep. Does that build have a few bleeds? Oh... Wait, you're stuck with main hand pistol... Or rifle. Yes.... You do. If what used to return 0% barrier becomes 15% or whatever.... I mean... I'm not all that good at math... But that's still more barrier. Like that trait doesn't have an ICD. So.... ticking conditions... Even weak ones... Keep applying barrier even when you had to break out of damage rotation for boons, or healing or whatever.

What I would be prepared to conceded is that full berserker's and full vipers will output barrier roughly the same in total. Even if it is constant applications vs burst applications.

But every non specialized build benifits from the change.

So... For the one guy running full Berserker's scrapper... Sorry dude. And the same to the one dude running full vipers. But to the rest of the support scrappers, who run nearly zero damage stats. The barrier is doubled. Because we now have 2, (up from 1) sources that produce the effect. With no stats to multiply either effect... We have characters who invested nothing in dps stats getting an equivalent doubling of the barrier they currently produce.

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@BrokenGlass.9356 said:It does work exactly like that. I'm not confused about how stats work. If a full rabid guy gets some barrier, a full vipers guy will get more. Why? Vipers has higher direct. Thus higher damage to barrier conversion rate. Because there's more damage.

Like we can both agree that full clerics gear is generating virtually zero barrier from that trait. But every class does some direct and some condi. So if you gear in clerics, then they make condi damage apply barrier in a small conversion, that cleric geared toon will get more barrier than they did before. Why? Because condi didn't calculate before, and now thier Elixer gun's poison spray is returning barrier. A lot of barrier? No. More than zero? Yes.

Will a berserker build produce more barrier? Yep. Does that build have a few bleeds? Oh... Wait, you're stuck with main hand pistol... Or rifle. Yes.... You do. If what used to return 0% barrier becomes 15% or whatever.... I mean... I'm not all that good at math... But that's still more barrier. Like that trait doesn't have an ICD. So.... ticking conditions... Even weak ones... Keep applying barrier even when you had to break out of damage rotation for boons, or healing or whatever.

What I would be prepared to conceded is that full berserker's and full vipers will output barrier roughly the same in total. Even if it is constant applications vs burst applications.

But every non specialized build benifits from the change.

So... For the one guy running full Berserker's scrapper... Sorry dude. And the same to the one dude running full vipers. But to the rest of the support scrappers, who run nearly zero damage stats. The barrier is doubled. Because we now have 2, (up from 1) sources that produce the effect. With no stats to multiply either effect... We have characters who invested nothing in dps stats getting an equivalent doubling of the barrier they currently produce.

I mean, sure, technically it is a very small amount more barrier on non-dps builds, but we're talking a negligible amount here. Suppose you're using MH pistol with your support scrapper. With no condition damage, you're getting ~15 extra barrier per fragmentation shot assuming it's not cleansed. That's .. barely worth mentioning. If you're not speccing any damage, the damage-barrier conversion trait barely helps you in the first place. So yes, you're right that it technically increases the barrier, but I think the amount is too low to care about until you start putting stats and traits into damage, at which point it is balanced between power, condi, and hybrid builds.

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Just saying. Buff for defensive stat users. And now applies to... gasp both damage types.

We can talk about how the bonus is low. Or what % is should use, or sliding scales or whatever.

But what I see, is a currently mostly trash trait, about to become not trash. Can't say if I see it becoming good. But it won't be trash anymore.

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@"BrokenGlass.9356""But to the rest of the support scrappers, who run nearly zero damage stats. The barrier is doubled."

If a support Hammer Scrapper has 0 investment in power, and 0 investment in condi, the change to Impact Savant will not double the barrier. This is because the barrier is based on outgoing damage, not stat investment. Simply having a hammer equipped will make your outgoing damage 95% power based.

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@Chaith.8256 said:@"BrokenGlass.9356""But to the rest of the support scrappers, who run nearly zero damage stats. The barrier is doubled."

If a support Hammer Scrapper has 0 investment in power, and 0 investment in condi, the change to Impact Savant will not double the barrier. This is because the barrier is based on outgoing damage, not stat investment. Simply having a hammer equipped will make your outgoing damage 95% power based.

Yep, true. But it does help your grenade kit, Elixer gun, mortar kit, tons of toolbelt skills....

So, for a hammer build, it won't be doubled just more. Pistol and shield tho...?

But I digress.

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@BrokenGlass.9356 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:@BrokenGlass.9356"But to the rest of the support scrappers, who run nearly zero damage stats. The barrier is doubled."

If a support Hammer Scrapper has 0 investment in power, and 0 investment in condi, the change to Impact Savant will not double the barrier. This is because the barrier is based on outgoing damage, not stat investment. Simply having a hammer equipped will make your outgoing damage 95% power based.

Yep, true. But it does help your grenade kit, Elixer gun, mortar kit, tons of toolbelt skills....

So, for a hammer build, it won't be
doubled
just
more
. Pistol and shield tho...?

But I digress.

You get next to nothing off of pistol though unless you've got condi stats.

  • ~15 barrier per autoattack if it ticks its full duration and is not cleansed
  • ~35 barrier if you land all 5 shots of poison dart volley and they are not cleansed
  • ~10-30 barrier from static shot if it is not cleansed

This is negligible.

Same with any damage Elixir gun would be doing. Grenade kit and Mortar kit tend not to be run by tanky builds, but if they were, those wouldn't be generating much barrier either. Ditto for pretty much any skill without condi damage stats. An extra 100-200 barrier across a full rotation means nothing in a world where bursts regularly combo for 15-30k.

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So.... What's your point? It is in fact a buff from its current version, but it will still suck?

Our volley so far.

Me- this change looks like an upgrade.You- you don't understand stats.Me- I totally do, and it's still an upgrade from what we have.You- OK, your right. But it still sucks. And your exact phrasing needs editing.Me- yeah, it's still a buff I'm excited about.You- the buff is completely negligible, you have no reason to be excited.

Like... I can recognize a glass half full of pee is still half full dude.

I still care more about the level of liquid than I do it's quality on this one.

Chalk up another loss for nihilism.

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@BrokenGlass.9356 said:Me- yeah, it's still a buff I'm excited about.

We're not saying you can't be excited but we're saying you can't double your barrier gain on a support build like you calculate, or go from dumpster to extremely overpowered feats like tanking three people like you're expecting to do. (Edit: that wasn't you actually, mb)

Chalk up another loss for nihilism

Haha... In this case nihilism is the nametag on the strawman you just shredded

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@Chaith.8256 said:

The reason why condi Scrapper was better than power was that toughness benefits heals and barrier?Outside build choices Condi Scrapper doesn't get inherently higher toughness, nor does toughness benefit healing and barriers at all.

Nono, sorry for the misunderstanding:Barrier benefits from toughness the same way as healing does: indirectly due to the fact that you receive less direct damage with higher toughness. And when I am talking about condi scrapper I usually mean dire/wanderer/apothecary stuff.

The only way such a condi Scrapper is getting elevated over power Scrapper is if you're fighting melee opponents poorly equipped to deal with condi builds, and you avoid every single condi build or build with condi removal.

Sure, the flaw of ANY condi build is that condis can easily be removed with the right skills/traits/Equipment. I didn't mean to say that condi scrapper is generally better. However, all builds that fight outnumbered have usually outstanding survivability while doing decent damage. This is currently not the case for power scrapper, but rather possible with condi scrapper IMO.

You need to be doing 2000-2666 condi ticks per second to get the same barrier that being hit with passive Adaptive Armor previously gave. Encountering any condi removal will put you below that.

Sure, same as any blocks/dodges/reflects/invuls reduces power damage below 2000-2666dps in a similar way, otherwise you would kill every oponent in 6-8 seconds.However, the Advantage over the good old adaptive armor is that IF your condis tick, you do not Need to be hit or to actively hit to stack barrier. You can just let it tick.

Condi Scrapper is still gonna be worse than pre-patch, worse than obscure, even once you get 15% damage to barrier conversion.

I did not say it will be better than pre patch, but it will be better than it is now, and now it is already possible to engage many 2v1 and either win, or at least survive with condi scrapper thanks to mobility and several stealth possibilities. Similar to condi thief,

I am curious how it will be :) if they really add condition damage to the barrior Generator it would be great

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@Chaith.8256 said:

We're not saying you can't be excited but we're saying you can't double your barrier gain on a support build like you calculate, or go from dumpster to extremely overpowered feats like tanking three people like you're expecting to do. (Edit: that wasn't you actually, mb)

Chalk up another loss for nihilism

That was me haha, but maybe you misunderstood, I never said you can simply outtank 3 ppl forever with the changes, that would be insane. My Initial Statement was just, that I can see myself fighting 3v1 again. Meaning to engage and survive, maybe kill 1/2/3 of them before disengaging. This is currently hardly possible.

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@Chaith.8256 said:

@"BrokenGlass.9356" said:Me- yeah, it's still a buff I'm excited about.

We're not saying you can't be excited but we're saying you can't double your barrier gain on a support build like you calculate, or go from dumpster to extremely overpowered feats like tanking three people like you're expecting to do. (Edit: that wasn't you actually, mb)

Chalk up another loss for nihilism

Haha... In this case nihilism is the nametag on the strawman you just shredded

Who is we?

Yes, you can double the barrier output on unstated builds. How? My condition buttons now work as applicators when they didn't before. If you're just uncomfortable with words like double and half... The internet is the wrong place for semantics police.

Also, tanking 3 folk at once is only overpowered if you're killing 3 folk at once. And let's be real, my plaguedoctor scrapper can tank 3 folks at once now.... I can't kill a one of um. But I can live for long enough for the thief to capture far point and circle back around.

Once my poison is giving back barrier, maybe I can hang out long enough to actually down one of the three.

And for real dude, maybe nihilism is the wrong word (even if exactly the right feels) but all you have to say is why folks are wrong, why things suck, and why there's nothing to be excited about. Even when you're admitting the other person has a point it's from behind a crooked smile.

"I'm not saying you can't be excited. Just that the thing your excited about is a raging dumpster fire, and that any attempt to warm your hands on the flames is still completely contemptible."

Like. Give some ground. Or be better at arguing such that you don't need to.

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@BrokenGlass.9356 said:

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:Me- yeah, it's still a buff I'm excited about.

We're not saying you can't be excited but we're saying you can't double your barrier gain on a support build like you calculate, or go from dumpster to extremely overpowered feats like tanking three people like you're expecting to do. (Edit: that wasn't you actually, mb)

Chalk up another loss for nihilism

Haha... In this case nihilism is the nametag on the strawman you just shredded

Who is we?

Royal we. Chaith is engineer royalty.

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